Criticizing Ryoma - What is acceptable in War or perhaps not

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Yes, I understand that Hinoka has good personal reasons to hate the Nohrian military. However, she is also unthinkingly letting this hate flow freely in a conversation with Corrin without regard for how Corrin may feel. And okay, maybe she does assume that Corrin's just had a horrible time and never met anyone nice in Nohr, but that's her own damn fault for making assumptions. But just because it makes logical sense, that does not make that it will endear her to another character (because y'know, actions have consequences). From Corrin's perspective, she's running her mouth when the greater majority of Nohrians in Corrin's life have been kind. If I am roleplaying Corrin here, this does the exact opposite of persuading me to choose Birthright. This was also the impression I got playing the game almost completely my first time through, so basically (barring the meta-knowledge that Hoshido was going to be unequivocally declared the good guys) I had their word and their word alone to go off Nohr sending the Faceless in. These are more or less total strangers doing or saying things that push Corrin away. Add in that C5 had a bunch of weird, invisible guys led by a Swordmaster using a Hoshidan weapon and I was more than a little suspicious that things ran much deeper than a simple Nohrian attack. Unfortunately, Conquest itself then decided that Nohr was truly the Land of Cartoon Villainy and that decent Nohrians are actually super rare and pretty much limited to the people who travel with Corrin, but that's besides the point. Given just the information had at the time, I found Hoshido neither convincing nor persuasive.

As for the Zola comment, it's not because I think she isn't justified in trying to keep Zola in line. No, my issue is that's practically all that they've done with her screen time as of the end of Birthright 13. Sakura and Takumi get character development. Hinoka gets to repeat the same action over and over. Really hoping they don't just forget about her now that Zola's dead.

[Tolvir]

Openly racist? Please. Nohr killed her father, sends faceless to kill innocents, kidnapped and brainwashed Corrin, killed her mother, tried to kill Corrin, and are invading them.

Hinoka is right to call them Nohrian Scum as they're scum who happen to be the hated Nohrian invaders.

Zola is not in their side, he literally tried to capture the Royals and betrays you multiple times. The only one he doesn't want Garon to kill is Corrin. He happily would watch the rest be killed by his plot.

So because Germany produced Hitler, killed millions of Jewish, formed the Third Reich, and conquered many nations during WWII does that mean I have the right to treat every German I come across as a Nazi?

Racism is Racism, justification for it or not, it isnt right in any stretch of the imagination. By what you are saying then all of the following characters are scum. Benny, Laslow, Odin, Scarlet, Elise, Leo, Selena, Azura, Corrin, Arthur, Effie, Niles, Silas, Keaton, Felicia, Flora, Jakob, Nyx, Gunter, and pretty much every Nohrian character are scum, and according to you that is completely okay because Garon killed her father and kidnapped her brother. One person, the dictator king in charge of Nohr, and because of one man's actions, it is ok to judge the rest the same way.

Now, does Hinoka have a right to be angry with Nohr? Sure, she has every right, but to say all Nohrian are scum and to trash them all is not right, and cannot be justified no matter how great the excuse.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Tolvir

[NekoKnight]

So because Germany produced Hitler, killed millions of Jewish, formed the Third Reich, and conquered many nations during WWII does that mean I have the right to treat every German I come across as a Nazi?

Racism is Racism, justification for it or not, it isnt right in any stretch of the imagination. By what you are saying then all of the following characters are scum. Benny, Laslow, Odin, Scarlet, Elise, Leo, Selena, Azura, Corrin, Arthur, Effie, Niles, Silas, Keaton, Felicia, Flora, Jakob, Nyx, Gunter, and pretty much every Nohrian character are scum, and according to you that is completely okay because Garon killed her father and kidnapped her brother. One person, the dictator king in charge of Nohr, and because of one man's actions, it is ok to judge the rest the same way.

Your analogy is a little...off. You don't have a reason to think poorly of Germans in the modern age but if you were say, a French or English person DURING World War II and you had friends or family that were killed by Germans, you would probably have a very low opinion of them.

Racism is bad, we can all agree, but it's understandable that people like Hinoka would be so prejudiced. I can't even call it a character flaw to hate people who routinely wrong you and your people. I don't see why Hinoka should have to specify that she's aware that SOME Nohrians are not horrible people. She doesn't need to spare a kind thought for an enemy nation's soldiers.

[Thor Odinson]

Hinoka's overuse of "Nohrian scum" is an injection Treehouse did that wasn't really part of her character. Takumi is also turned up to 11 in his display of racism, where in the original he still hated nohr, but he had a bit more subtlety about it.

Mind, I don't want to bash on the localization because I'm glad this is in a language I can understand and I think they did mostly a solid job, but in the case of Takumi and Hinoka--I felt they took the easy way out instead of making their rage a bit more nuanced to read.

[Lanko]

Racism? Please...

The nations are at war and attacking each other before the characters were even born and they were directly affected in many ways (Sumeragi, Corrin, Faceless, the explosion). Of course they will be hostile.

And despite their bravado, Takumi and Hinoka even walk in Nohrian territory and never bashes the land or its populace. The only exchanges are with Corrin and the other Nohrian royals, who are, in their eyes, the leaders and minds behind everything.

The big question is why Nohr isn't more hostile towards the Hoshidans.

[blah the Prussian]

Your analogy is a little...off. You don't have a reason to think poorly of Germans in the modern age but if you were say, a French or English person DURING World War II and you had friends or family that were killed by Germans, you would probably have a very low opinion of them.

Racism is bad, we can all agree, but it's understandable that people like Hinoka would be so prejudiced. I can't even call it a character flaw to hate people who routinely wrong you and your people. I don't see why Hinoka should have to specify that she's aware that SOME Nohrians are not horrible people. She doesn't need to spare a kind thought for an enemy nation's soldiers.

To add to that, I would say it would be entirely natural to hate Garmans and Japanese during WWII; it wouldn't be a character flaw but rather a natural reaction to the atrocities of both powers. Of course, Nohr at its worst isn't nearly as bad as either the Nazis or the Kodoha, but it would still be a natural human reaction for a member of the Hoshidan royal family to hate them, but it would also be a natural human reaction for Corrin to defend the Nohrians.

[Tolvir]

Your analogy is a little...off. You don't have a reason to think poorly of Germans in the modern age but if you were say, a French or English person DURING World War II and you had friends or family that were killed by Germans, you would probably have a very low opinion of them.

Racism is bad, we can all agree, but it's understandable that people like Hinoka would be so prejudiced. I can't even call it a character flaw to hate people who routinely wrong you and your people. I don't see why Hinoka should have to specify that she's aware that SOME Nohrians are not horrible people. She doesn't need to spare a kind thought for an enemy nation's soldiers.

My analogy was a bit off now that I look at it.

Here is where I was going with what I said. I though the person I was replying to was justifying Hinoka's racism, and saying that it is entirely ok. It was this line here "Hinoka is right to call them Nohrian Scum as they're scum who happen to be the hated Nohrian invaders." that specifically set me off.

To be honest, this is once again largely Corrin's problem. He can specify that the source of Nohr's transgressions come from their leadership. Garon and his two lackeys specifically. But Corrin just leaves it alone and lets Hinoka continue on her rant instead of maybe standing up for the people that treated him like family while he was there.

To add to that, I would say it would be entirely natural to hate Garmans and Japanese during WWII; it wouldn't be a character flaw but rather a natural reaction to the atrocities of both powers. Of course, Nohr at its worst isn't nearly as bad as either the Nazis or the Kodoha, but it would still be a natural human reaction for a member of the Hoshidan royal family to hate them, but it would also be a natural human reaction for Corrin to defend the Nohrians.

And that is something that was really missing from that conversation. Corrin should of stood up for at least his foster siblings in Nohr when Hinoka went off like that. It may of pissed them off at first, but at least Ryoma would likely respect the fact that he was willing to stand up for someone he thinks is worth standing up for, even if they can be considered an enemy by them.

Racism? Please...

The nations are at war and attacking each other before the characters were even born and they were directly affected in many ways (Sumeragi, Corrin, Faceless, the explosion). Of course they will be hostile.

And despite their bravado, Takumi and Hinoka even walk in Nohrian territory and never bashes the land or its populace. The only exchanges are with Corrin and the other Nohrian royals, who are, in their eyes, the leaders and minds behind everything.

The big question is why Nohr isn't more hostile towards the Hoshidans.

EDIT: Meant to reply to Lanko's post. I think the reason Nohr isnt more hostile to Hoshido is that the majority of the Nohrians outside of Garon, Iago, and Hans don't actually want to fight Hoshido. None of them truly see them as an enemy, and are being forced to fight them. If you were being forced to fight someone that you really didnt see as an enemy, you wouldn't exactly be openly hostile to them. You would be more apologetic than anything as you wish this didnt have to happen. Same with Nohr and Hoshido. Either that or once again IS left something out that should of been implemented.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Tolvir

[Azure Sen]

I actually think it was smart of Corrin to not try to defend Nohr, and there's a couple of possible reasons why he didn't:

1( The only examples of kindness he can think of are his siblings and his retainers, and he doesn't want to poke that particular wound.

2( It's early in his stay in Hoshido, so he doesn't want to piss off the people keeping him there.

3( He's been deeply affected by Garon's attempt on his life and the death of his surrogate father figure, and thus is doubting everything he's ever known.

The real answer of course is that Hinoka didn't say that in the original script and thus there was no reason for him to react, but I can dream that more thought went into the writing.

To be honest, this is once again largely Corrin's problem. He can specify that the source of Nohr's transgressions come from their leadership. Garon and his two lackeys specifically. But Corrin just leaves it alone and lets Hinoka continue on her rant instead of maybe standing up for the people that treated him like family while he was there.

Corrin doesn't know that, though. He's been to the Nohr court all of once, and Iago wasn't even there if I remember correctly. And even if he did, why would the Hoshido siblings believe him? He's got no other reference points but the Nohr sibs (who the Hosh sibs could argue were just being nice to manipulate him) and his retainers (who could be argued as being nice because they were ordered to).

EDIT: Meant to reply to Lanko's post. I think the reason Nohr isnt more hostile to Hoshido is that the majority of the Nohrians outside of Garon, Iago, and Hans don't actually want to fight Hoshido. None of them truly see them as an enemy, and are being forced to fight them. If you were being forced to fight someone that you really didnt see as an enemy, you wouldn't exactly be openly hostile to them. You would be more apologetic than anything as you wish this didnt have to happen. Same with Nohr and Hoshido. Either that or once again IS left something out that should of been implemented.

I mean, it's impossible to say, because literally no one on Conquest but Corrin expresses any reservations about the invasion of Hoshido. Even people who should know better than to side with a nation invading a peaceful neighboring country (lookin' at you, Laslow, Selena and Odin) or who were raised in Hoshido (Azura). We also don't get to see much of the common people of Nohr and their opinion of Garon (on Conquest, anyway. Birthright makes it clear that they largely hate Garon too).

There was a topic about Ryoma here. It's gone now.

[Truthblade]

I find it a bit funny we went from talking about Ryoma to Fates' horrible plot.

[Time the Crestfallen]

I find it a bit funny we went from talking about Ryoma to Fates' horrible plot.

Welcome to the Serenesforest Fates Forum, please pick up your complimentary straight-jacket and diazepam at the first door to the left.

[Namarid]

I find it a bit funny we went from talking about Ryoma to Fates' horrible plot.

I think this was described as Serene's Law. All discussions about fates will change into discussions about it's story.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

I actually think it was smart of Corrin to not try to defend Nohr, and there's a couple of possible reasons why he didn't:

1( The only examples of kindness he can think of are his siblings and his retainers, and he doesn't want to poke that particular wound.

2( It's early in his stay in Hoshido, so he doesn't want to piss off the people keeping him there.

3( He's been deeply affected by Garon's attempt on his life and the death of his surrogate father figure, and thus is doubting everything he's ever known.

The real answer of course is that Hinoka didn't say that in the original script and thus there was no reason for him to react, but I can dream that more thought went into the writing.

Corrin doesn't know that, though. He's been to the Nohr court all of once, and Iago wasn't even there if I remember correctly. And even if he did, why would the Hoshido siblings believe him? He's got no other reference points but the Nohr sibs (who the Hosh sibs could argue were just being nice to manipulate him) and his retainers (who could be argued as being nice because they were ordered to).

I mean, it's impossible to say, because literally no one on Conquest but Corrin expresses any reservations about the invasion of Hoshido. Even people who should know better than to side with a nation invading a peaceful neighboring country (lookin' at you, Laslow, Selena and Odin) or who were raised in Hoshido (Azura). We also don't get to see much of the common people of Nohr and their opinion of Garon (on Conquest, anyway. Birthright makes it clear that they largely hate Garon too).

There was a topic about Ryoma here. It's gone now.

It is probably the smart thing to do, but also felt inconsistent with this bleeding-heart, emotions-on-sleeve character. I mean, by this point in the game, Corrin's spoken out directly against Garon, jumped in front of several weapons to save a couple enemy PoWs and openly chastised Hans for not allowing for diplomacy (when this would almost certainly get back to Garon). I have to doubt Corrin has that kind of foresight or level of self-control at this point. And it occurs to me, looking back on it from a completed Conquest, that this tendency barely improves at all in the story, despite Leo going a lengthy lecture about subtlety.

Also, didn't know that before you and Thor mentioned it and I'm disappointed they thought Hinoka had to be that overt about it in the translation.

Corrin did meet Iago before leaving for the scouting mission, but all Iago did there was state he was coordinating the mission and be a bit creepy. No cartoon villainy from him yet.

Heh, at least Ryoma's still gotten some mention, even if it's not about him and Conquest 12 anymore.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi

[Azure Sen]

I think this was described as Serene's Law. All discussions about fates will change into discussions about it's story.

I don't think it counts as Serenes' Law if we were already talking about Conquest's plot.

Also, didn't know that before you and Thor mentioned it and I'm disappointed they thought Hinoka had to be that overt about it in the translation.

It was only added as part of the localization's half-assed attempt to add some moral ambiguity to Hoshido, not because they thought Hinoka needed to be more overt. It's clearer when you compare it to her supports with the Nohr sibs that Hinoka really doesn't hold that much ill will towards Nohrians.

Edited April 15, 2016 by AzureSen