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IS needs to define character genders better again. Agree or no?


Anacybele
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Alright, this was just one of the things I did not like about Fates, even though I think Birthright at least is much better than Awakening (did not play Conquest and I haven't gotten far in Revelation yet).

Awakening kind of had this issue too.

In past FE games, there were a few characters I mistook the gender of, but not many. I would've mistaken Lucius for a woman just like in-game characters do if I'd had the chance. But I didn't play FE7 until I'd already played several other FE games, and by that time, I'd learned Lucius's gender before seeing his art. I mistook what's-her-name from FE6 for a guy too. The female Hero. I've forgotten her name now. I know very well that women can look rather masculine, but I genuinely could not tell she was a woman.

But these are the only two cases I can think of that are pre-Awakening/Fates. I can't think of any Tellius character that I mistook the gender of. Or Shadow Dragon character. But this is getting ridiculous to me now. Look whose genders I mistook or would've mistook in Awakening and Fates:

Awakening:

- Thought the female Knight boss in Ferox was a man.

- I probably would've thought Excellus was female if I hadn't already seen people here calling him a guy.

- I actually didn't think Libra was a woman at first, but I've seen other FE players say they did.

Fates:

- Forrest is the most obvious one, I'm sure a lot of people thought he was female.

- Thought Subaki was female.

- I couldn't decide at all whether I thought Oboro was male or female.

- I would've thought Izana was female, but as with Lucius in FE7 and Excellus in Awakening, I learned his gender before seeing him.

- And recently, I found I was mistaking a second child for a female. I think it was Hisame? I thought he had a feminine face and his haircut was one I've only seen women use. But then I hear a male voice. -_- And I was hoping that I was looking at a female with a serious personality (like Frederick-level serious). I find that those aren't common in FE.

I also actually mistook Takumi for female once as well, but that was due to a fanart, as I hadn't yet seen any of his official art. That fanart simply made him look feminine. I could tell he was a guy in his official art. So I don't count him here.

This is just starting to annoy me. Does anyone else agree that IS needs to stop making so many characters like these? I could deal with just one or two over a few games, but imo Fates (and Awakening to a lesser extent) are going too far here. I know I don't know a lot about Japanese culture, but I do know that ponytails were a thing there with guys. Long hair in general can be too. So it's definitely not a case of where I thought ponytail/long hair = woman or something dumb like that. xP

I actually find that Japanese media in general makes a lot of boys look like girls (I don't actually find the opposite occurring nearly as much), but it just seems to be a thing there, and I won't say they should get rid of something they enjoy just because I don't enjoy it. That's why I haven't said they should disappear from FE completely. I just think IS should tone it back down a bit. It's kind of frustrating when you feel like you can't call any future character a specific gender anymore until you get absolute confirmation. >_<

EDIT: Oh wait, there WAS one Tellius character I thought was female, but turned out to be male. Soren. It was for a very short time though, since PoR was my first FE game, so that's probably why I forgot about this.

Edited by Anacybele
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With Forrest and Libra, it's sorta the gimmick so...

I actually mistook Soren, Lucius, a playable monk in FE4, and quite a few other pre Awakening characters for females when they were actually male. In Awakening/Fates, Libra was the only one I was fooled by, but they don't exactly hide it with Forrest so...

I do think Forrest and Libra's gimmick needs to die, but those two are the only characters I can understand mistaking for the wrong gender in Awakening/Fates.

Edited by MCProductions
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I actually thought Libra looked kind of masculine in the face and body/outfit. Only his hair screamed feminine to me, but I wasn't going to call him a woman based on that alone. So I actually thought he was female from the start.

But I know I'm not the only person who thought Subaki was female and I saw others say they weren't sure if Oboro was male or female. I was like "huh, so I'm not alone here. Surprising." That's how I remember. And there was that whole thread on Subaki's gender too. Most thought he was male, but there were some others that believed he was female.

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In the case of Lucius and Libra, I think it's fine as the games tend to make fun of them (in a good way). I mistook both for a female at first as well, but was easily corrected and grew to love them.

Fates does confuse me a bit, though. There's quite a bit more androganous (however you spell that word) characters than I've ever seen at ince in a game. Is Forrest a guy? Subaki? It's honestly kind of rediculous.

Parden my spellung, by the way, I just woke up...

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Gender is not that important.

this is true, but I still don't want to think a character is the wrong gender for a long time because that just ends up being confusing

really the only playable character whose gender genuinely confused me was midir in FE4

the only one that genuinely made me think "why even bother making them look like that" was excellus

other than that I think they make it obvious enough when it's not on purpose

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It could just be IS challenging gender stereotypes and embracing the fact that appearances don't necessarily have to be an obvious indication of one's own gender. I personally don't see why characters need to justify why they look the way they do.

With that being said, I feel like they should continue making character bios for everyone because they do have those on the official Fire Emblem If/Fates website and they give a good snippet of what the character is like, along with their pronouns.

Edited by carefreejules
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It could just be IS challenging gender stereotypes and embracing the fact that appearances don't necessarily have to be an obvious indication of one's own gender. I personally don't see why characters need to justify why they look the way they do.

while they were definitely trying to do something like that with Forrest, taking into account his introduction chapter and supports

taking into account his introduction chapter and supports, it's pretty clear that, with libra, they were doing it for the sake of a bunch of cheap jokes

so really, I feel like it can be okay as long as it's done in a way that is... actually good

Edited by maybe
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while they were definitely trying to do something like that with Forrest, taking into account his introduction chapter and supports

taking into his introduction chapter and supports, it's pretty clear that, with libra, they were doing it for the sake of a bunch of cheap jokes

so really, I feel like it can be okay as long as it's done in a way that is... actually good

Considering that Awakening did come before Fates, it's obvious that they made an effort to move away from the trope with Forrest. Yeah, at first they used his gender as a 'joke' but they did it as a way for Leo to come to accept his son for who he is. They put Forrest in a positive light where the villagers were grateful for his actions regardless of his gender and that's when Leo realized that his son is a compassionate and kind person - he's looking beyond appearances and judging from his actions and character.

It's unfortunate that Libra didn't receive the same treatment but it's definitely a step in the right direction in my book for what they did with Forrest.

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Gender is not that important. And none of those units are even ambiguous aside from the Lucius/Forrest trope.

I'm not saying it's really important. I'm just getting annoyed at how many characters I'm mistaking for the wrong gender lately. And that second sentence is your opinion.

Edited by Anacybele
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No. People in the real world can be various degrees of androgynous too and being treated as androgynous ingame is only actually a thing for Forrest- everyone treats Subaki/Oboro as male/female for instance.

Edited by -Cynthia-
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No. People in the real world can be androgynous too and be

Yeah, but I rarely see these kinds of people in real life. They're all over the place in Fates and I find that unrealistic and irritating. Also, it looks like you didn't finish your sentence or something.

And wouldn't anyone find it annoying to repeatedly mistake character genders a bunch of times over in one game?

Edited by Anacybele
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Yeah, but I rarely see these kinds of people in real life. They're all over the place in Fates and I find that unrealistic and irritating. Also, it looks like you didn't finish your sentence or something.

And wouldn't anyone find it annoying to repeatedly mistake character genders a bunch of times over in one game?

That's you. Go out and see the world some more and you will see more 'feminine' looking men and 'masculine' looking women.

It's not really a big deal what gender a character is and none of these characters are ambiguous at all ingame for pairing or whatever.

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i'm not seeing an issue here, op, i have never seen a fire emblem character besides forrest who i was wrong on the sex, even initially

and even so, it's only bad when it's played for cheap jokes like maybe said, otherwise i think this problem is chiefly your problem

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Just don't assume you know their gender until it's made obvious, bam problem solved. Treat them like strangers on the internet.

Mistaking physical appearances in a video game doesn't say anything bad about you as a person. If it's possible to, it's best to just switch to the correct pronouns and move on.

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That's you two. It's not the same for some other players, like me. And Cynthia, do you think I live in solitary confinement or something? I DO go out and see the world, thank you very much.

EDIT: I think I should be able to figure out their gender right away, whether it's real life or a video game. How else can I know which pronoun to use? Or whether I should say sir or ma'am?

Edited by Anacybele
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Yeah, but I rarely see these kinds of people in real life. They're all over the place in Fates and I find that unrealistic and irritating. Also, it looks like you didn't finish your sentence or something.

And wouldn't anyone find it annoying to repeatedly mistake character genders a bunch of times over in one game?

Well, it's probably because we still live in a society where this kind of thing is not 100% accepted by everyone so those who do fall under the category of having a different gender from their sex, they don't want to be judged negatively so they don't necessarily show it.

Having this many protrayals in a game doesn't necessarily have to abide by what's realistic in the real world but could simply be IS showing that there's nothing wrong with these types of characters. The more people are exposed to these types of characters in different media, the more people will get used to the idea in the real world (ideally anyway) because I feel like things in media form are more easily accepted by people. These are just my interpretations so if you don't feel the same way, that's completely fine.

I can see why people might find it annoying when they mistaken a character's gender but reactions will vary depending on the person. Some people will take it into stride, correct themselves and move on. Some might be a bit more confused than anything - but that's fine as well.

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Well, it's probably because we still live in a society where this kind of thing is not 100% accepted by everyone so those who do fall under the category of having a different gender from their sex, they don't want to be judged negatively so they don't necessarily show it.

Having this many protrayals in a game doesn't necessarily have to abide by what's realistic in the real world but could simply be IS showing that there's nothing wrong with these types of characters. The more people are exposed to these types of characters in different media, the more people will get used to the idea in the real world (ideally anyway) because I feel like things in media form are more easily accepted by people. These are just my interpretations so if you don't feel the same way, that's completely fine.

I can see why people might find it annoying when they mistaken a character's gender but reactions will vary depending on the person. Some people will take it into stride, correct themselves and move on. Some might be a bit more confused than anything - but that's fine as well.

...Huh? Where has anyone been talking about transgenders? That's not the topic. You confuse me. You don't have to be transgender to appear to be the opposite gender of what you actually are. Hell, Forrest is an example of this. He defines himself as male, but dresses like a girl. He's just a cross-dresser.

Edited by Anacybele
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EDIT: I think I should be able to figure out their gender right away, whether it's real life or a video game. How else can I know which pronoun to use? Or whether I should say sir or ma'am?

Well in real life you could just ask. In the case you can't ask, you just use neutral pronouns or their name until you figure out otherwise. In a video game it literally doesn't matter.

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That's you two. It's not the same for some other players, like me.

okay, so why is it an issue if not all men are rock-solid male archetypes and not all women are delicate effeminate flowers?

EDIT: I think I should be able to figure out their gender right away, whether it's real life or a video game. How else can I know which pronoun to use? Or whether I should say sir or ma'am?

for real life, if you're unsure, ask or figure out through context; for a video game, look it up, for instance on this site that you're on. this is an intensely selfish standpoint to take, anacybele, i would expect better from you.

EDIT: also i don't think i've run into anybody who was offended by me referring to them as "they" - gender neutral "they" owns bones

Edited by Integrity
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okay, so why is it an issue if not all men are rock-solid male archetypes and not all women are delicate effeminate flowers?

for real life, if you're unsure, ask or figure out through context; for a video game, look it up, for instance on this site that you're on. this is an intensely selfish standpoint to take, anacybele, i would expect better from you.

EDIT: also i don't think i've run into anybody who was offended by me referring to them as "they" - gender neutral "they" owns bones

Now you're just twisting everything I said. Not going to comment there.

I'm not asking someone if they're male or female. That's super awkward. I'd feel that way if someone asked me that question too. I'd rather just know right away or not speak to them at all.

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Now you're just twisting everything I said. Not going to comment there.

I'm not asking someone if they're male or female. That's super awkward. I'd feel that way if someone asked me that question too. I'd rather just know right away or not speak to them at all.

i'm not twisting everything you say, i'm parroting back at you my interpretation of your stance, with my only source on the matter being you. this is starting to sound less like you having a problem with fire emblem's characterization not fitting into nice pigeonholed sex boxes, and more like you having some problems with androgyny as a concept, which is a Not Good Thing in today's society.

EDIT: also, please explain the second line to me any way that isn't "if someone's pronouns aren't apparently to me immediately, i'd rather not talk to them"? as far as i can tell, you're literally placing your comfort over someone else's identity, which is essentially the logic we used to pass don't ask don't tell and discharge THOSE GAYS from military service.

which, by the way, was a bad thing.

Edited by Integrity
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That's you two. It's not the same for some other players, like me. And Cynthia, do you think I live in solitary confinement or something? I DO go out and see the world, thank you very much.

There are lots of people in this world who do not conform to gender stereotypes, either willingly or unwillingly- I see them every day. It doesn't bother me that if I can't immediately identify them. It also gives me perspective that men and women don't have to look a particular way.

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