People preference Does Anybody still like Awakening more than Fates.

[BrightBow]

Well, he's portrayed as heroic, yet he does exactly what his father tells him to and invades an innocent nation. Why should we care about characters who not only have no moral compass, but also lack any sense of agency?

Conquest is essentially what Radiant Dawn would've been like if Ike decided that aiding Ashera made more sense, at least right up until the end.

Or if Hetzel was that game's hero...

Sanaki: Hetzel… I had thought that you alone might be above Lekain’s foul conspiracy! It saddens me to see you at his side.

Hetzel: N-no, Apostle Sanaki! I–

Sanaki: I didn’t ask for excuses! You fight alongside Lekain. That’s more proof than I’ll ever need.

Hetzel: …You are right, I fight with him. I had no choice. But…please, understand that I’ve always done my best to honor and respect Your Majesty.

Sanaki: Then how do you explain my confinement in Mainal Cathedral?

Hetzel: I-I didn’t do anything! It was all Lekain! I didn’t know anything about it, and only heard later…

Sanaki: And when you did hear of it, why didn’t you stop it?

Hetzel: I…couldn’t. Actually, I could have, but I…didn’t say anything. It was the same with Misaha, and the Serenes Massacre… I…

Sanaki: …didn’t say anything. In other words, you stood by as my grandmother and the Serenes people were killed!

Hetzel: P-please forgive me…

IS seems to have some fundamental misunderstanding about how drama works. Plot stupidity aside...

the reveal of Garon's true identity does nothing but spare Xander and Corrin from having to make any tough choices. If Garon was revealed to be a monster after they already decided they have to stop him by force if necessary, then that wouldn't be much of an issue. It would be kinda like how Lucia was saved after Elincia already decided that she was going to sacrifice her to prevent Ludveck from taking the throne. Elincia still made the tough call to let her beloved sister die for the good of her people. Nobody saved her from that choice. But when Corrin learns of the whole monster affair, his attitude was still "Are you insane?" and "Do we really need to defeat and shame him?" And one can't forget the classic "You want to buy peace through death? This is madness!" at the beginning of that chapter.

Edited June 20, 2016 by BrightBow

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Well, he's portrayed as heroic, yet he does exactly what his father tells him to and invades an innocent nation. Why should we care about characters who not only have no moral compass, but also lack any sense of agency?

Conquest is essentially what Radiant Dawn would've been like if Ike decided that aiding Ashera made more sense, at least right up until the end.

At least in Conquest he

does admit to some level of non-heroicness, even if it's relatively forgotten by the end. Like, he straight up tells Corrin that justice is just an illusion and that all they can do is fight for who they care for. It's an admission that he thinks the only thing that can be done is throwing others under the bus to protect his inner circle. He also admits that he was in denial about Garon's evilness. Yes, the impact is dampened greatly by Garon being a literal monster at the time, but at least Xander admits to it. His supports with Corrin also discuss his anger and frustration with Garon's orders (but he's still bound by his sense of duty). Depending on one's interpretation, this can be either tragic or more damning (or a combination of both, I suppose).

[Augestein]

I don't understand; are you arguing against me or agreeing with me? Because like I said, Flora's death is executed horribly.

Agreement. Just talkin' is all.

[TheWerdna]

Well, he's portrayed as heroic, yet he does exactly what his father tells him to and invades an innocent nation. Why should we care about characters who not only have no moral compass, but also lack any sense of agency?

Conquest is essentially what Radiant Dawn would've been like if Ike decided that aiding Ashera made more sense, at least right up until the end.

I am not disagreeing with you on this one. Just that on Conquest some of his stupidity is kind of Corrin's fault.

[Sunwoo]

In my opinion, both Awakening and Fates kind of suffer from a similar problem that the earlier FEs didn't suffer from as greatly. It all but excuses, or outright praises, the main characters being selfish and not looking at the best for their kingdom.

FE8 has Ephraim, who went from a person who didn't care about ruling or his princely duties at all, to someone who grew up and realized that he had to take responsibility now that he was king. Eirika from the same game was naive and sheltered, kind of like Kamui. The difference between Eirika and Kamui is that Eirika is forced to grow up. When she makes a stupid decision as a result of her naivety, she suffers the consequences for it and realizes that she did a stupid. She's supported and talked to by her friends, not coddled and told that it's all right to keep fucking up like the siblings do with Kamui.

FE9 and FE10 has Elincia, who took a level in badass and became a ruler who was willing to sacrifice someone very important to her if it meant keeping a tyrant off the throne. Elincia is a pacifist, yes, but she was far better implemented than both Emmeryn and Mikoto had been, and she took up arms against her own people when they were rebelling against her, because she realized she had to and it was her duty as queen to do so.

Sanaki from the same games is also a great example of a ruler, because even though she is only 10 or 13 years old, depending on the specific game, she is a far more competent ruler than Chrom or Marx or most any other FE protagonist can hope to be. She is a badass, and instead of being the Senate's puppet ruler she did her best to protect the people under her dominion, and apologized to the herons for the actions of her people from long before she was born. And Sanaki did all of this without hearing the goddess's voice.

Now, let's look at Chrom and Emmeryn. One of them is every bit a naive ruler as Eirika and Elincia were in their games, but unlike them she doesn't grow. She jumps off a cliff and is heralded as a martyr. What? Neither Eirika nor Elincia had been allowed to get away with this tripe in their games, they had to grow up! And it'd be fine if Emmeryn was supposed to be seen as a weak ruler who couldn't handle the pressures of ruling and took the easy way out as soon as she could. But she's not. We're truly supposed to believe that she's an excellent queen and a martyr and singlehandedly caused many Plegians to defect from the Plegian army. Chrom? He's supposed to be the Exalt and the big man in charge at the end of the game, but he can't even let go of one person to save the world. Elincia was going to let go of one person to save her country -- this is the world we are talking about! This is all but analogous to Ike letting Ashera turn everything into stone because she's holding Soren or Mist hostage or something. And we would not praise Ike for letting Ashera doom the world just to save one person. So why should we praise Chrom for it? Same logic with Lucina, if the avatar is her husband or mother. Oh, sure, it's perfectly fine to kill someone else's special person to save the world, but you're too selfish to do it if it's your own loved one?

In FE14, I think Marx and Kamui and Hinoka (in Conquest) are the biggest offenders. Marx is an idiot in all routes, but in Birthright he is the typical Camus archetype. He's not a hero, he's a (supposedly) sympathetic villain. He stands in your path, and is ultimately removed from your path by force. Conquest would've been fine if the writers hadn't tried to exert the usual protagonist nation flavor storytelling in that path … but they did. In Conquest, apparently none of your siblings believe in Garon's nutty agenda because they're all "truly good at heart" or some crap, and they're just doing this because he's still their father and Marx at least seems to believe he will return to normal if they conquer Hoshido.

But that's not heroic at all. I'd have been able to sympathize if they believed that he invasion would help their own starving country by stealing the resources of a wealthier one, but apparently it's not even about that! It's about a bunch of people who are too spineless to stand up for something they don't actually believe in and just shuffle around with their hands clenched in their pockets. And I know that not everyone has the strength to stand up in cases like this. But this is precisely why characters like this are NOT the heroes, and why every other FE protagonist HAD the strength to stand up and be extraordinary. Conquest as it's written doesn't work because all of the siblings feel like despicable cowards. Kamui is also the single most self-centered character I have seen since Bella Swan, their complete obsession with how it's the Hoshidans who don't understand what they're doing and how it's their happiness that is being sacrificed, not the lives of Hoshidans only defending their country, that makes this "I-disease" all so evident.

That is the real issue between Awakening and Fates, and the rest of the game. This "I-disease", that the royalty who are supposed to protect the people of their country are so self-centered that they'd rather choose a select few (or even one person), over the many people they are supposed to protect, and are outright praised for it by the game and portrayed as a good thing and not some horrible flaw like it was in previous games, that changes the overall tone between the earlier games and the older ones. That's the biggest thing.

But I think Fates was a lot worse about this than Awakening. At least Awakening only pulled this crap in the last few chapters. Fates shoved this tripe in my face in three games, especially the entirety of Conquest. By that virtue alone, I think I'm now in the camp of liking Awakening better than Fates as a construct, despite preferring certain characters in Fates and the gameplay more.

[Thane]

Or if Hetzel was that game's hero...

Sanaki: Hetzel… I had thought that you alone might be above Lekain’s foul conspiracy! It saddens me to see you at his side.

Hetzel: N-no, Apostle Sanaki! I–

Sanaki: I didn’t ask for excuses! You fight alongside Lekain. That’s more proof than I’ll ever need.

Hetzel: …You are right, I fight with him. I had no choice. But…please, understand that I’ve always done my best to honor and respect Your Majesty.

Sanaki: Then how do you explain my confinement in Mainal Cathedral?

Hetzel: I-I didn’t do anything! It was all Lekain! I didn’t know anything about it, and only heard later…

Sanaki: And when you did hear of it, why didn’t you stop it?

Hetzel: I…couldn’t. Actually, I could have, but I…didn’t say anything. It was the same with Misaha, and the Serenes Massacre… I…

Sanaki: …didn’t say anything. In other words, you stood by as my grandmother and the Serenes people were killed!

Hetzel: P-please forgive me…

IS seems to have some fundamental misunderstanding about how drama works. Plot stupidity aside...

the reveal of Garon's true identity does nothing but spare Xander and Corrin from having to make any tough choices. If Garon was revealed to be a monster after they already decided they have to stop him by force if necessary, then that wouldn't be much of an issue. It would be kinda like how Lucia was saved after Elincia already decided that she was going to sacrifice her to prevent Ludveck from taking the throne. Elincia still made the tough call to let her beloved sister die for the good of her people. Nobody saved her from that choice. But when Corrin learns of the whole monster affair, his attitude was still "Are you insane?" and "Do we really need to defeat and shame him?" And one can't forget the classic "You want to buy peace through death? This is madness!" at the beginning of that chapter.

Exactly. This is how Intelligent Systems has treated people like Corrin in the past. Corrin is an egotistical, naïve coward and gets hailed as a hero, and it sickens me that they think the player is supposed to swallow it.

At least in Conquest he

does admit to some level of non-heroicness, even if it's relatively forgotten by the end. Like, he straight up tells Corrin that justice is just an illusion and that all they can do is fight for who they care for. It's an admission that he thinks the only thing that can be done is throwing others under the bus to protect his inner circle. He also admits that he was in denial about Garon's evilness. Yes, the impact is dampened greatly by Garon being a literal monster at the time, but at least Xander admits to it. His supports with Corrin also discuss his anger and frustration with Garon's orders (but he's still bound by his sense of duty). Depending on one's interpretation, this can be either tragic or more damning (or a combination of both, I suppose).

The problem being, of course, that Xander's main story characterization is all over the place. He's supposed to be portrayed as honorable but time and again shows that the only thing he cares about is being able to sleep at night. He goes against Zora's plans - Xander's own original plan he used to get Corrin to go back to Nohr - and decides a blood bath is better than him killing four people UNJUSTLY. Him saying things like "justice is an illusion" is pure, unadulterated hypocrisy and only serves to show what a weak-willed coward he is since he's constantly looking for excuses to take the easy way out.

[PrincessAlyson]

I care about story more so I'd have to say Awakening. However, I do enjoy playing Fates. As for music...Damn both games have an amazing OST... I can't decide. Gameplay wise, I actually kinda miss the classing system in Awakening. In Fates I have to use those seals just so I can level up more... However, some of the maps in Fates are fantastic. In Revelation, most of the maps have a puzzle to them, which is neat. Some are annoying but eh, not every level can be perfect. Conquest has the worst story of all three so even though I got it, I don't really play it. Birthright is good. Revelation, while it has flaws, makes sense and put the pieces together. But Awakening has the superior story. As for characters, it's a mixed bag for me. I don't like certain characters in Awakening (though I'm not going to go into that) and then there are some in Fates that I can't stand (Peri, for one). But other characters are well thought out.

In my opinion, both Awakening and Fates kind of suffer from a similar problem that the earlier FEs didn't suffer from as greatly. It all but excuses, or outright praises, the main characters being selfish and not looking at the best for their kingdom.

FE8 has Ephraim, who went from a person who didn't care about ruling or his princely duties at all, to someone who grew up and realized that he had to take responsibility now that he was king. Eirika from the same game was naive and sheltered, kind of like Kamui. The difference between Eirika and Kamui is that Eirika is forced to grow up. When she makes a stupid decision as a result of her naivety, she suffers the consequences for it and realizes that she did a stupid. She's supported and talked to by her friends, not coddled and told that it's all right to keep fucking up like the siblings do with Kamui.

FE9 and FE10 has Elincia, who took a level in badass and became a ruler who was willing to sacrifice someone very important to her if it meant keeping a tyrant off the throne. Elincia is a pacifist, yes, but she was far better implemented than both Emmeryn and Mikoto had been, and she took up arms against her own people when they were rebelling against her, because she realized she had to and it was her duty as queen to do so.

Sanaki from the same games is also a great example of a ruler, because even though she is only 10 or 13 years old, depending on the specific game, she is a far more competent ruler than Chrom or Marx or most any other FE protagonist can hope to be. She is a badass, and instead of being the Senate's puppet ruler she did her best to protect the people under her dominion, and apologized to the herons for the actions of her people from long before she was born. And Sanaki did all of this without hearing the goddess's voice.

Now, let's look at Chrom and Emmeryn. One of them is every bit a naive ruler as Eirika and Elincia were in their games, but unlike them she doesn't grow. She jumps off a cliff and is heralded as a martyr. What? Neither Eirika nor Elincia had been allowed to get away with this tripe in their games, they had to grow up! And it'd be fine if Emmeryn was supposed to be seen as a weak ruler who couldn't handle the pressures of ruling and took the easy way out as soon as she could. But she's not. We're truly supposed to believe that she's an excellent queen and a martyr and singlehandedly caused many Plegians to defect from the Plegian army. Chrom? He's supposed to be the Exalt and the big man in charge at the end of the game, but he can't even let go of one person to save the world. Elincia was going to let go of one person to save her country -- this is the world we are talking about! This is all but analogous to Ike letting Ashera turn everything into stone because she's holding Soren or Mist hostage or something. And we would not praise Ike for letting Ashera doom the world just to save one person. So why should we praise Chrom for it? Same logic with Lucina, if the avatar is her husband or mother. Oh, sure, it's perfectly fine to kill someone else's special person to save the world, but you're too selfish to do it if it's your own loved one?

In FE14, I think Marx and Kamui and Hinoka (in Conquest) are the biggest offenders. Marx is an idiot in all routes, but in Birthright he is the typical Camus archetype. He's not a hero, he's a (supposedly) sympathetic villain. He stands in your path, and is ultimately removed from your path by force. Conquest would've been fine if the writers hadn't tried to exert the usual protagonist nation flavor storytelling in that path … but they did. In Conquest, apparently none of your siblings believe in Garon's nutty agenda because they're all "truly good at heart" or some crap, and they're just doing this because he's still their father and Marx at least seems to believe he will return to normal if they conquer Hoshido.

But that's not heroic at all. I'd have been able to sympathize if they believed that he invasion would help their own starving country by stealing the resources of a wealthier one, but apparently it's not even about that! It's about a bunch of people who are too spineless to stand up for something they don't actually believe in and just shuffle around with their hands clenched in their pockets. And I know that not everyone has the strength to stand up in cases like this. But this is precisely why characters like this are NOT the heroes, and why every other FE protagonist HAD the strength to stand up and be extraordinary. Conquest as it's written doesn't work because all of the siblings feel like despicable cowards. Kamui is also the single most self-centered character I have seen since Bella Swan, their complete obsession with how it's the Hoshidans who don't understand what they're doing and how it's their happiness that is being sacrificed, not the lives of Hoshidans only defending their country, that makes this "I-disease" all so evident.

That is the real issue between Awakening and Fates, and the rest of the game. This "I-disease", that the royalty who are supposed to protect the people of their country are so self-centered that they'd rather choose a select few (or even one person), over the many people they are supposed to protect, and are outright praised for it by the game and portrayed as a good thing and not some horrible flaw like it was in previous games, that changes the overall tone between the earlier games and the older ones. That's the biggest thing.

But I think Fates was a lot worse about this than Awakening. At least Awakening only pulled this crap in the last few chapters. Fates shoved this tripe in my face in three games, especially the entirety of Conquest. By that virtue alone, I think I'm now in the camp of liking Awakening better than Fates as a construct, despite preferring certain characters in Fates and the gameplay more.

I agree with most of this. I do like Emmeryn's portrayal in Awakening so I kinda have to disagree there... But Royalty should be willing to make sacrifices for the good of their nation and its people. Corrin is selfish and no one calls him/her out for it... Ugh.

Edited June 28, 2016 by PrincessAlyson

[Thinks Their Own Way]

I've been playing Awakening lately, yeah and Fates is better in every single way to me.

[TadpoleSuperHero]

Yes. Fates makes some very nice improvements, and has far more creative level design, but Awakening is a far superior game for me.

- I like the leveling system better in Awakening. Does it make the game easier as you can grind to essentially infinite levels and max stats for everyone? Yes. But grinding is optional, and I love being able to restart as a new class, and being able to reclass characters into almost anything, really playing with the options and getting them a crazy combination of skills. Plus, if you want to beat Apotheosis (if I names it wrong I'm sorry), you need to grind to max stats for everyone lol. And Apotheosis is worth that effort.

- I like the story better. It's very standard Fire Emblem, which is not at all a bad thing. Fates just creates three messy, incomprehensible, uninspiring garbage heaps of storylines that I cannot stand. And I went in with every intention of loving the game and giving all three stories every possible chance. Awakening keeps things simpler by comparison, but is allowed to focus more on its themes, tell an emotionally compelling tale, and make sense of itself rather than be overburdened by far too much "stuff."

- While the idea of Hoshido and Nohr and varying classes between the two is neat, I prefer Awakening's set of classes more. Hoshido's classes are aesthetically interesting but ultimately I really don't like them. The magic system in Hoshido - spirits instead of elements - comes across as hokey to me. And while you get more types of weapons aesthetically, there really isn't that much variety. Awakening kept things simple while having great classes like the Assassin and Trickster which don't appear anywhere in Fates, with poor replacements. Also, the Tactician class to me is far more interesting than Corrin's classes. Turning into a dragon is neat, but aesthetically they picked a really ugly dragon and they never explain why Corrin has gone his whole life barefoot.

- The weapon system, while a neat idea in Fates, I find poorly executed. Weapons don't break - that's neat! Strong weapons have oppressively detrimental side effects - that's dumb! Why would I ever use a Silver weapon in Fates? Not to mention there are far too many weapons that can debuff your character's stats (I can't stand Ninja enemies). It's just a really poorly balanced and conceived system. Weapons breaking isn't the worst thing in the world (aside from iconic and unique weapons, those shouldn't break because if they do then you never want to use them, defeating their purpose).

- Kids make sense in Awakening. Fates should have either come up with a sensible way to have kids (I would have LOVED a generational story, since I really enjoy the child characters in Fates, and it would have been neat to give them their own "sequel story" after the main cast's story) or not included them at all.

- My Castle. It's one of many examples of Fates having interesting ideas that are unfinished, poorly conceived, or incomplete. My Castle is so much busywork. It would have worked better, in its current form, as a menu system similar to the Base in Path of Radiance. Neat ideas, and I would love to see My Castle expanded on and improved in a future game, but in its current form it actually drags Fates down for me.

- The World Map. There's really no point to it in Fates, as the map itself tells us nothing about the world, geography, relation of different locations, etc. It's meant to look realistic, but it ends up looking lifeless and pointless. And you navigate using a menu, so what's the point of the map itself? Awakening made a great improvement on Sacred Stones' idea of a world map, and then Fates took five steps backwards.

- In the end, the only thing Fates does definitively better, for me, are the music (OH MY GOSH FATES' SOUNDTRACK IS AMAZING) and the level design, which is far more creative and varied in Fates (though, unfortunately, the maps themselves are aesthetically less interesting and less colorful, which is odd). Fates tried to do SO MUCH and it succeeded at so little, while Awakening took the Fire Emblem "formula" and made smart improvements, streamlining, and additions to make it great for veterans while accessible and exciting for newcomers.

[semolinaro]

Yes. Fates makes some very nice improvements, and has far more creative level design, but Awakening is a far superior game for me.

- I like the leveling system better in Awakening. Does it make the game easier as you can grind to essentially infinite levels and max stats for everyone? Yes. But grinding is optional, and I love being able to restart as a new class, and being able to reclass characters into almost anything, really playing with the options and getting them a crazy combination of skills. Plus, if you want to beat Apotheosis (if I names it wrong I'm sorry), you need to grind to max stats for everyone lol. And Apotheosis is worth that effort.

- I like the story better. It's very standard Fire Emblem, which is not at all a bad thing. Fates just creates three messy, incomprehensible, uninspiring garbage heaps of storylines that I cannot stand. And I went in with every intention of loving the game and giving all three stories every possible chance. Awakening keeps things simpler by comparison, but is allowed to focus more on its themes, tell an emotionally compelling tale, and make sense of itself rather than be overburdened by far too much "stuff."

- While the idea of Hoshido and Nohr and varying classes between the two is neat, I prefer Awakening's set of classes more. Hoshido's classes are aesthetically interesting but ultimately I really don't like them. The magic system in Hoshido - spirits instead of elements - comes across as hokey to me. And while you get more types of weapons aesthetically, there really isn't that much variety. Awakening kept things simple while having great classes like the Assassin and Trickster which don't appear anywhere in Fates, with poor replacements. Also, the Tactician class to me is far more interesting than Corrin's classes. Turning into a dragon is neat, but aesthetically they picked a really ugly dragon and they never explain why Corrin has gone his whole life barefoot.

- The weapon system, while a neat idea in Fates, I find poorly executed. Weapons don't break - that's neat! Strong weapons have oppressively detrimental side effects - that's dumb! Why would I ever use a Silver weapon in Fates? Not to mention there are far too many weapons that can debuff your character's stats (I can't stand Ninja enemies). It's just a really poorly balanced and conceived system. Weapons breaking isn't the worst thing in the world (aside from iconic and unique weapons, those shouldn't break because if they do then you never want to use them, defeating their purpose).

- Kids make sense in Awakening. Fates should have either come up with a sensible way to have kids (I would have LOVED a generational story, since I really enjoy the child characters in Fates, and it would have been neat to give them their own "sequel story" after the main cast's story) or not included them at all.

- My Castle. It's one of many examples of Fates having interesting ideas that are unfinished, poorly conceived, or incomplete. My Castle is so much busywork. It would have worked better, in its current form, as a menu system similar to the Base in Path of Radiance. Neat ideas, and I would love to see My Castle expanded on and improved in a future game, but in its current form it actually drags Fates down for me.

- The World Map. There's really no point to it in Fates, as the map itself tells us nothing about the world, geography, relation of different locations, etc. It's meant to look realistic, but it ends up looking lifeless and pointless. And you navigate using a menu, so what's the point of the map itself? Awakening made a great improvement on Sacred Stones' idea of a world map, and then Fates took five steps backwards.

- In the end, the only thing Fates does definitively better, for me, are the music (OH MY GOSH FATES' SOUNDTRACK IS AMAZING) and the level design, which is far more creative and varied in Fates (though, unfortunately, the maps themselves are aesthetically less interesting and less colorful, which is odd). Fates tried to do SO MUCH and it succeeded at so little, while Awakening took the Fire Emblem "formula" and made smart improvements, streamlining, and additions to make it great for veterans while accessible and exciting for newcomers.

I agree with everything you stated here, and I also liked Awakening far more than Fates. In fact, I just finished an Awakening file a few weeks ago and am now on chapter 22 of Conquest, and I can confidently say that Awakening was a more fulfilling experience.

Fates (oddly enough) felt much more limited than Awakening. I felt more restricted in how I could level up and reclass my characters, despite there being more seals available. I just wasn’t having as much fun playing around with my unit’s classes and stats, and wasn’t all that eager to see them grow in their new classes either. Overall, I don’t like the characters in Fates nearly as much as Awakening. Sure, Awakening has a fair share of tropey characters, but they at least have motivations, internal conflicts and actual reasons to fight for you. In Fates, your army consists of people who fight for you because of their obligatory loyalty to their masters, or for literally no reason at all (Keaton and Kaden, don’t you guys have a tribe to lead or something? Why do you suddenly want to get involved in a war that literally has nothing to do with you?) In Fates, the cast felt so uninspired.

I feel like I was the only one who really enjoyed Awakening’s story. Sure, it’s not The Last of Us or Bioshock level storytelling, but it was very enjoyable for a Fire Emblem game. There wasn’t a time where I questioned a character’s actions, and I felt their goals and motivations were believable. Fates story is just absolutely abysmal and probably the stupidest thing I’ve ever slogged through. It desperately tries to make sense of three incomplete storylines that are so dumb I have to skip all the cutscenes whenever I play. I was so beyond excited for Fates’ story too, because the choice was such an interesting concept. But by making the choice so black and white with one being the obviously good side and one being the blatantly bad side, they ended up failing so hard at an A+ concept that could have been presented with complex political tension and grey morality. You can’t give players a choice when one is wrong and the other is right, that defeats the entire purpose of having a choice in the first place. Instead, what we get is brick-for-brains Corrin who would rather sacrifice an entire innocent nation under the heel of his (obviously) evil adoptive father because he’s too much of a coward to stand up to him. It makes playing the game so difficult sometimes.

I also was interested in the idea of contrasting classes between Hoshido and Nohr, but I don’t really like Hoshido’s classes. I didn’t enjoy fighting them, nor did I enjoy playing as them. I don’t know, it just felt kinda random to me, the eastern aesthetic doesn’t really fit into a Fire Emblem game IMO. Actually, Fates doesn’t even really feel like a Fire Emblem game to me, but more like a spinoff. There is no world building to be had, and the aesthetics of Nohr and Hoshido, while they can be perceived as refreshing, don’t feel very Fire Emblem-ey. It was made too contrived and complicated to have all of Hoshido’s classes added, as I felt they were exactly the same as previous classes in the franchise but reskinned with a Japanese theme. I also hate how the Japanese inspired nation is pure and innocent while the Western nation is aggressive and belligerent. I just can’t get over that. Also, Corrin’s dragon is the ugliest Arceus I have ever seen.

Ah yes, the weapon system. Another thing I totally agree with you on. Though nobody else seems to agree, I really can’t stand the weapon system. Weapons have so many complicated stat detriments and boosts that I can’t keep track. I’m already trying to organize my units on the map, I don’t need more complications with my weapons. I miss the more simple and straightforward weapon system of Awakening and previous titles, as this new feature was trying way too hard. (Also, magic users in Fates are worthless. They hit heavy, but are way too fragile. Mages are some of my favourite units, but I could barely use them in Fates).

Oh god, the kids. The deeprealms are so beyond stupid; I couldn’t believe how little time and thought went into the kids mechanic. Honestly, one of the biggest problems with Fates is that it wants to be different from Awakening, but it’s also afraid to let it go. The children were so poorly implemented in this game that I would have been completely fine if they didn’t include them. Either that, or have a big generational timeskip, with the parent characters aging during a ‘peace era’ between Hoshido and Nohr and having the children grow up then. It might even help the children get involved in the story. Marriage was also kinda pointless as the pair up system was tweaked with Attack Stance and Guard Stance, so you can control when your ally will attack the enemy or shield you. While I liked being in control, it really made marriage seem like it only existed for the children. The kids in Awakening were also far better developed, while the kids in Fates were as shallow as a puddle in July.

The world map also really bugged me. It took me ages to actually figure out where Nohr and Hoshido were on the map, and the menu navigation system made it feel so restrictive. I loved the world map in Awakening because you had free reign to traverse an open world, it made the continent feel large and grand. The lack of worldbuilding in Fates also doesn’t help this fact, as I think the Fates universe has one of the most uninspiring settings in the entire franchise.

The soundtrack of Fates is phenomenal. I don’t think there’s a track I don’t like in this game. Oddly enough, though, I find the maps, while challenging, lack soul and visual detail. A lot of the environments and textures are bland and don’t feel as immersive as Awakening’s levels, and there were far more memorable maps in Awakening compared to Fates (for example, Chapters 9, 10, 16, and 23 in Awakening were far more memorable than anything I played in Fates). I have a feeling that the uninspired setting and plot had something to do with my enjoyment of the level design, since I'm the kind of person who can play a game with meh gameplay but a stellar story and love it (PMD Explorers of Time/Darkness/Sky comes to mind).

[TheSilentChloey]

I agree with everything you stated here, and I also liked Awakening far more than Fates. In fact, I just finished an Awakening file a few weeks ago and am now on chapter 22 of Conquest, and I can confidently say that Awakening was a more fulfilling experience.

Fates (oddly enough) felt much more limited than Awakening. I felt more restricted in how I could level up and reclass my characters, despite there being more seals available. I just wasn’t having as much fun playing around with my unit’s classes and stats, and wasn’t all that eager to see them grow in their new classes either. Overall, I don’t like the characters in Fates nearly as much as Awakening. Sure, Awakening has a fair share of tropey characters, but they at least have motivations, internal conflicts and actual reasons to fight for you. In Fates, your army consists of people who fight for you because of their obligatory loyalty to their masters, or for literally no reason at all (Keaton and Kaden, don’t you guys have a tribe to lead or something? Why do you suddenly want to get involved in a war that literally has nothing to do with you?) In Fates, the cast felt so uninspired.

I feel like I was the only one who really enjoyed Awakening’s story. Sure, it’s not The Last of Us or Bioshock level storytelling, but it was very enjoyable for a Fire Emblem game. There wasn’t a time where I questioned a character’s actions, and I felt their goals and motivations were believable. Fates story is just absolutely abysmal and probably the stupidest thing I’ve ever slogged through. It desperately tries to make sense of three incomplete storylines that are so dumb I have to skip all the cutscenes whenever I play. I was so beyond excited for Fates’ story too, because the choice was such an interesting concept. But by making the choice so black and white with one being the obviously good side and one being the blatantly bad side, they ended up failing so hard at an A+ concept that could have been presented with complex political tension and grey morality. You can’t give players a choice when one is wrong and the other is right, that defeats the entire purpose of having a choice in the first place. Instead, what we get is brick-for-brains Corrin who would rather sacrifice an entire innocent nation under the heel of his (obviously) evil adoptive father because he’s too much of a coward to stand up to him. It makes playing the game so difficult sometimes.

I also was interested in the idea of contrasting classes between Hoshido and Nohr, but I don’t really like Hoshido’s classes. I didn’t enjoy fighting them, nor did I enjoy playing as them. I don’t know, it just felt kinda random to me, the eastern aesthetic doesn’t really fit into a Fire Emblem game IMO. Actually, Fates doesn’t even really feel like a Fire Emblem game to me, but more like a spinoff. There is no world building to be had, and the aesthetics of Nohr and Hoshido, while they can be perceived as refreshing, don’t feel very Fire Emblem-ey. It was made too contrived and complicated to have all of Hoshido’s classes added, as I felt they were exactly the same as previous classes in the franchise but reskinned with a Japanese theme. I also hate how the Japanese inspired nation is pure and innocent while the Western nation is aggressive and belligerent. I just can’t get over that. Also, Corrin’s dragon is the ugliest Arceus I have ever seen.

Ah yes, the weapon system. Another thing I totally agree with you on. Though nobody else seems to agree, I really can’t stand the weapon system. Weapons have so many complicated stat detriments and boosts that I can’t keep track. I’m already trying to organize my units on the map, I don’t need more complications with my weapons. I miss the more simple and straightforward weapon system of Awakening and previous titles, as this new feature was trying way too hard. (Also, magic users in Fates are worthless. They hit heavy, but are way too fragile. Mages are some of my favourite units, but I could barely use them in Fates).

Oh god, the kids. The deeprealms are so beyond stupid; I couldn’t believe how little time and thought went into the kids mechanic. Honestly, one of the biggest problems with Fates is that it wants to be different from Awakening, but it’s also afraid to let it go. The children were so poorly implemented in this game that I would have been completely fine if they didn’t include them. Either that, or have a big generational timeskip, with the parent characters aging during a ‘peace era’ between Hoshido and Nohr and having the children grow up then. It might even help the children get involved in the story. Marriage was also kinda pointless as the pair up system was tweaked with Attack Stance and Guard Stance, so you can control when your ally will attack the enemy or shield you. While I liked being in control, it really made marriage seem like it only existed for the children. The kids in Awakening were also far better developed, while the kids in Fates were as shallow as a puddle in July.

The world map also really bugged me. It took me ages to actually figure out where Nohr and Hoshido were on the map, and the menu navigation system made it feel so restrictive. I loved the world map in Awakening because you had free reign to traverse an open world, it made the continent feel large and grand. The lack of worldbuilding in Fates also doesn’t help this fact, as I think the Fates universe has one of the most uninspiring settings in the entire franchise.

The soundtrack of Fates is phenomenal. I don’t think there’s a track I don’t like in this game. Oddly enough, though, I find the maps, while challenging, lack soul and visual detail. A lot of the environments and textures are bland and don’t feel as immersive as Awakening’s levels, and there were far more memorable maps in Awakening compared to Fates (for example, Chapters 9, 10, 16, and 23 in Awakening were far more memorable than anything I played in Fates). I have a feeling that the uninspired setting and plot had something to do with my enjoyment of the level design, since I'm the kind of person who can play a game with meh gameplay but a stellar story and love it (PMD Explorers of Time/Darkness/Sky comes to mind).

Considering this is what I was trying to say about Fates vs Awakening; it's quite rude that I got "attacked" for what is personal opinion, even if I was ranting and not being as calm as I needed to be (which unfortunately for me is all part of the issues I face on a daily basis). No matter, I won't hold grudges because that's a pointless thing to do.

Fates is so bland that I litterally have gone back to Awakening without hesitation because at least my favourite classes are awesome and I have Mire to work with. My currently deathless (until chapter 7) Normal Casual run has more hours of entertainment than Fates has and Awakening litterally cost me less than Fates did. Sure some people think that I'm one of those "poisonous cooked up" newcommers by FE Veterans, but in truth I gave Fates all the chances it needed and the points I made still stand because they are valid even if others are too busy trying to invalidate my opinion which no one has to agree with.

Awakening implemented child characters far better than Fates, had a better reclassing system, had absolutely AWESOME Sorcerers that were viable and amazing and weren't the stupid glass cannons that are Nyx or any other magic user reclassed into this class. Awakening had an option for Sorcerers/Dark Mages to make strikes at a distance so they didn't have to be on the front lines to be tacticially viable in the Mire tome like the longbow for archers. Now sorcerers have nothing except magic...and Nosferatu but even then it's not that great and their caps got nerfed from what I have heard.

Galeforce was nerfed and made pointless. As well as making Ebon Wings a nightmare to get if you wanted to have more than two Dark Fliers from the Ebon Wings you were given. It was a nightmare map that I (and probably a lot of other people) failed more often than necessary and caused endless frustration to just to get through Royal Royale even once (so far I haven't made a second success of the map and I was using Elise...the easiest royal to use). At the very least they should have allowed your game mode to directly affect the difficulty level all of your DLC and not just one or two maps, clearly IS didn't think about that one.

Pair ups were fixed up sure but I prefered Awakening's pair up system; broken as it was, mostly because nothing is more thrilling to me than seeing my avatar make that unexpected dual guard or dual strike helping out his or her team mates. At least that is how I see it...

[TheWerdna]

The world map also really bugged me. It took me ages to actually figure out where Nohr and Hoshido were on the map, and the menu navigation system made it feel so restrictive. I loved the world map in Awakening because you had free reign to traverse an open world, it made the continent feel large and grand. The lack of worldbuilding in Fates also doesn’t help this fact, as I think the Fates universe has one of the most uninspiring settings in the entire franchise.

The soundtrack of Fates is phenomenal. I don’t think there’s a track I don’t like in this game. Oddly enough, though, I find the maps, while challenging, lack soul and visual detail. A lot of the environments and textures are bland and don’t feel as immersive as Awakening’s levels, and there were far more memorable maps in Awakening compared to Fates (for example, Chapters 9, 10, 16, and 23 in Awakening were far more memorable than anything I played in Fates). I have a feeling that the uninspired setting and plot had something to do with my enjoyment of the level design, since I'm the kind of person who can play a game with meh gameplay but a stellar story and love it (PMD Explorers of Time/Darkness/Sky comes to mind).

I agree with this 100. Thete are so few locations in Fates I find nemorable or could even describe to you. The level design was amazing from a gameplay perspective, sure, but it was just so bland. Granted there were a few in Fates that stood out, but Awakening's were just more vibrant and aesthetically pleasing.

[TheWerdna]

The world map also really bugged me. It took me ages to actually figure out where Nohr and Hoshido were on the map, and the menu navigation system made it feel so restrictive. I loved the world map in Awakening because you had free reign to traverse an open world, it made the continent feel large and grand. The lack of worldbuilding in Fates also doesnt help this fact, as I think the Fates universe has one of the most uninspiring settings in the entire franchise.

The soundtrack of Fates is phenomenal. I dont think theres a track I dont like in this game. Oddly enough, though, I find the maps, while challenging, lack soul and visual detail. A lot of the environments and textures are bland and dont feel as immersive as Awakenings levels, and there were far more memorable maps in Awakening compared to Fates (for example, Chapters 9, 10, 16, and 23 in Awakening were far more memorable than anything I played in Fates). I have a feeling that the uninspired setting and plot had something to do with my enjoyment of the level design, since I'm the kind of person who can play a game with meh gameplay but a stellar story and love it (PMD Explorers of Time/Darkness/Sky comes to mind).

I agree with this 100%. There are so few locations in Fates I find memorable or could even describe to you. The level design was amazing from a gameplay perspective, sure, but it was just so bland. Granted there were a few in Fates that stood out, but Awakening's were just more vibrant and aesthetically pleasing.

While I will say in terms of gameplay Fates was superior in terms of chalange and level, Awakening just felt more alive and complete in every other aspect. Perhaps its having to play three routes and buy DLC to get the full story. Perhaps its the aweful storytelling and world building. Maybe its the fact I want to punch the main protagonist in the face. Whatever the reason I just did not enjoy Fates outside of the chalange provided by Conquest.

Now, Awakening's story was not perfect and has a lot of issues, but most of its problems stem from being rather rushed at times and having things explained in more detail. But that's the thing, while not at all ideal, can be filled in my headcanons and such. Fates on the other hand has some serious issues with its main narative that just kneecaps the whole thing.

The best way I can sum it up would be talking from my perspective as a fanfic writer. If I were to write a fanfic novelization of Awakening I would keep the vast majority of the story intact: only making a few minor changes and spending most on my efforts adding to it and expanding existing events. Meanwhile if I were to do a novelization for any of the Fates routes I would likely end up rewriting large portions of it. Conquest in particular would see a near complete rewrite. And that's the problem in tbe end of the day: Awakening could be fixed through expanding upon what's there, while Fates can only be fixed by changing what's there

Edited July 6, 2016 by TheWerdna

[semolinaro]

I agree with this 100%. There are so few locations in Fates I find memorable or could even describe to you. The level design was amazing from a gameplay perspective, sure, but it was just so bland. Granted there were a few in Fates that stood out, but Awakening's were just more vibrant and aesthetically pleasing.

While I will say in terms of gameplay Fates was superior in terms of chalange and level, Awakening just felt more alive and complete in every other aspect. Perhaps its having to play three routes and buy DLC to get the full story. Perhaps its the aweful storytelling and world building. Maybe its the fact I want to punch the main protagonist in the face. Whatever the reason I just did not enjoy Fates outside of the chalange provided by Conquest.

Now, Awakening's story was not perfect and has a lot of issues, but most of its problems stem from being rather rushed at times and having things explained in more detail. But that's the thing, while not at all ideal, can be filled in my headcanons and such. Fates on the other hand has some serious issues with its main narative that just kneecaps the whole thing.

The best way I can sum it up would be talking from my perspective as a fanfic writer. If I were to write a fanfic novelization of Awakening I would keep the vast majority of the story intact: only making a few minor changes and spending most on my efforts adding to it and expanding existing events. Meanwhile if I were to do a novelization for any of the Fates routes I would likely end up rewriting large portions of it. Conquest in particular would see a near complete rewrite. And that's the problem in tbe end of the day: Awakening could be fixed through expanding upon what's there, while Fates can only be fixed by changing what's there

Right? I wish I could be one of the people who could overlook it and enjoy it from a gameplay perspective, but when the aesthetics of the levels are bland and the worldbuilding isn't there, it makes playing through each chapter much more uninteresting.

Awakening's story is definitely not perfect but for a video game story it's pretty damn good and I enjoy the hell out of it every time. Yes it has flaws, but they're nothing catastrophic and can be overlooked and the gaps are so small that they can easily be filled in. Half the time when people viciously rip apart Awakening's story, it begins to sound like nitpicking. Awakening's plot is nowhere near the fatal car crash that Fates is.

Also, this was another thing I wanted to bring up, but I absolutely can't stand the fanservice in Fates. Not so much in terms of skimpy outfits and boobs (which is there too) but more so with how it tried so hard to please everybody by including the Awakening kids as well as their reincarnations. I adored Severa, Owain and Inigo in Awakening, but I can't stand them in Fates. I used to find Owain's theatrical antics charming in Awakening, but Odin's made me want to tear my hair out. Severa, while she was a brat, had some funny dialogue and was true to her character. Selena is whiny and standoffish and lacks the complexity and depth that she had in Awakening. Laslow is an exact, unchanged clone of Inigo from Awakening who underwent no development and that bothers me.

You know, this would be been absolutely fine, awesome even, if FE14 was a direct sequel to Awakening. But given that the Fates universe is practically another dimension away from Akaneia, the inclusion of the Awakening kids makes absolutely no sense, and not even Fates' ass-pull writing could make their presence in Nohr a believable scenario. I pretend that their cameo in Fates is non-canon, because it's just so ridiculous.

[Dengres]

Right? I wish I could be one of the people who could overlook it and enjoy it from a gameplay perspective, but when the aesthetics of the levels are bland and the worldbuilding isn't there, it makes playing through each chapter much more uninteresting.

I fail to see where Awakening had good worldbuilding tbh. Not to say Fates had it, but Awakening also had pretty poor worldbuilding imo.

[semolinaro]

I fail to see where Awakening had good worldbuilding tbh. Not to say Fates had it, but Awakening also had pretty poor worldbuilding imo.

I still think Awakening had decent worldbuilding. We get to know the history of the conflict between Plegia and Ylisse, it makes some great references to FE3, and the continent has a name. Fates doesn't have a single ounce of that (we don't even really get to know the true reason of Hoshido and Nohr's conflict unless you play Revelation and have it explained in an exposition dump). In comparison, Awakening had far superior worldbuilding, even if it wasn't on a grand or detailed scale. Fate's setting is about as interesting as a cardboard box.

Edited July 6, 2016 by semolinaro

[Dengres]

I still think Awakening had decent worldbuilding. We get to know the history of the conflict between Plegia and Ylisse, it makes some great references to FE3, and the continent has a name. Fates doesn't have a single ounce of that (we don't even really get to know the true reason of Hoshido and Nohr's conflict unless you play Revelation and have it explained in an exposition dump). In comparison, Awakening had far superior worldbuilding, even if it wasn't on a grand or detailed scale. Fate's setting is about as interesting as a cardboard box.

Well I definitely agree, Fates had pretty lackluster worldbuilding where even is Kohga?? , but when it comes to enjoyment because of worldbuilding (or something like that) Awakening doesn't have that either in my opinion.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Dengres

[Emperor Hardin]

I still think Awakening had decent worldbuilding. We get to know the history of the conflict between Plegia and Ylisse, it makes some great references to FE3, and the continent has a name. Fates doesn't have a single ounce of that (we don't even really get to know the true reason of Hoshido and Nohr's conflict unless you play Revelation and have it explained in an exposition dump). In comparison, Awakening had far superior worldbuilding, even if it wasn't on a grand or detailed scale. Fate's setting is about as interesting as a cardboard box.

It made TERRIBLE references to FE3.

[BrightBow]

We don't know anything substantial about the Ylisse/Plegia conflict. Basically the only reason we have to believe that Chrom's father did a bad thing is the fact that Chrom and Emmeryn said so. And in Chrom's case, the moment when he seems like he would finally explain what was actually going on, he Instead immediately switched topic to how Ylisse and his sister were affected by it. And considering that the game runs the subtext that Emmeryn and Chrom are too kindhearted for their own good, even their personal judgement on the matter is without any value.

Edit: Also I accidentally posted in the wrong topic. Sorry about that. Not sure how one should handle such a situation but for now I hope I managed to rewrite this thing into something that still contributes towards this conversation.

Edited July 6, 2016 by BrightBow

[Sweet_Basil]

I miss the bride class and some characters but that's about it.

[TheWerdna]

Well I definitely agree, Fates had pretty lackluster worldbuilding where even is Kohga?? , but when it comes to enjoyment because of worldbuilding (or something like that) Awakening doesn't have that either in my opinion.

Some worldbuilding, even lackluster worldbuilding, is better than what we got in Fates. We don't even know the continant name.

In the end Awakening's world building sucked, but at least I had a far better feel for where things were and a basic understanding of the world's history.

Kind of like with the story I feel like I could take Awakening's limmited world building and expand upon it. With Fates I feel like I would have to blatantly make stuff up.

Edited July 6, 2016 by TheWerdna

[Dengres]

Some worldbuilding, even lackluster worldbuilding, is better than what we got in Fates. We don't even know the continant name.

In the end Awakening's world building sucked, but at least I had a far better feel for where things were and a basic understanding of the world's history.

Kind of like with the story I feel like I could take Awakening's limmited world building and expand upon it. With Fates I feel like I would have to blatantly make stuff up.

Well yeah, I was just saying that if your gameplay experience is soured because of bad worldbuildig, shouldn't the same apply to Awakening to a lesser extend?

[Ace Pelleas]

I prefer sticking with FE7 or any other FE game that feels more devoted to its origins.I never played either one,but I saw a friend of mine playing Fates and it wasn't so good.I think that I would rather prefer Awakening,but I'm probabl not gonna buy any.

[TheWerdna]

Well yeah, I was just saying that if your gameplay experience is soured because of bad worldbuildig, shouldn't the same apply to Awakening to a lesser extend?

Awakening did the absolute bare minimum needed to not take me out of the experience. Fates did bellow said bare minimun.

Plus Awakening had just enough to go on where I could use it with knowledge from past games set the same world and conjecture to fill in the gaps with answers that were satisfying. Fates I could not do this, where I would have to just make shit up to fill in the blanks.

This of course does by no means excuse Awakening's world building. But it is still far better than in Fates and was just enough for it not to bother me

[Peter The Cool]

Awakening has better characters, story, DLC, gameplay, and is over all I had more enjoyment then I had with Fates. I still; however don't like Awakening as much as any other Fire Emblem game.