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mikethepokemaster

Does Anybody still like Awakening more than Fates.

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TheSilentChloey has presented a few illogical arguments about the games, but at least she knows about respect. Respect is something I expect from everyone on Serenes. This is just shameful.

Perhaps had you calmly explained your opinions instead of burning her at the stake, we wouldn't be in this mess. Those involved know what I'm talking about.

That, she does not. I also expect respect, which is the reason why so many people here got angry at several of her posts - they lacked this.

TheSilentChloey herself has expressed that she had a negative mindset going into the game which, reasonable or not, admits that she was frustrated in her Conquest-rant post and thus not calm. The majority of the replies were calm, instead presenting logical arguments to defend the gameplay.

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Awakening (as compared to Fates)

- Better Character Designs (Almost all of the characters [1st Gen/2nd Gen] are my favourite!!!)

- Better Storyline (for 2nd Gen)

- Standardized Class System (Don't really like the idea of separating the jobs into two kingdoms only, because there are actually more than 2 kingdoms in Fates anyway...)

- Better World Map System (where you are roam freely though you have nothing much to do!)

- Paralogue to recruit extra characters (though some of them are not linked to the main storyline...)

Fates (as compared to Awakening)

- Better Storyline (for all three routes: Main Storyline)

- Introduction of Personal Skills

- Introduction of MyCastle

- Introduction of Map Gimmicks [Dragon Vein Ability and etc.]

- More challenging and different map objectives

- Introduction of Eternal Seal

- Better Weapon Forging System (Like the idea of forging weapon, without expicitly using money!)

- Introduction of Skill Buying System

- Better Dual Strike and Dual Guard System (Really like the idea that you can block any attack when your guard shield is full!)

- Introduction of New Weapons

- Introduction of Accessory Shop

- Better Character Developments and Involvement (for non main characters such as Kaze, Silas, Felicia, Scarlet, ... *Could be better by involving all? But they have too many characters in my opinions lol)

Just my two cents! Though there is a lot more that I would like to mention...

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Perhaps her posts lacked respect, but it wasn't targeted to anyone specific on this forum. However, she was targeted by multiple people.

It was a rant that generalized things, so I have no idea why the reactions were so strong. I rant about things all the time, so do many people I know. Even if we disagree on something, we aren't hostile to each other.

You can't make anyone change their views by swinging your fists at them. To reach an understanding, you need to remain calm. Overall, I didn't see nearly as much calm as was needed.

Perhaps I should read this whole thread again to refresh my memory, but maybe I'll just end up fanning the embers of a dying argument. Whether I'm right or wrong about this issue, I'll still think we need to be more careful in wording counter-arguments in the future.

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In an attempt to rerail this thread, I might as well share my thoughts on the endgame levels of Fates and Awakening, maybe compare them a bit.

Fates (Birthright):

It was honestly kind of lackluster in my eyes. Garon turning into a dragon was probably one of the least creative final bosses I've seen in a long time, and the map design left a bit to be desired. Also the sort of "brink of death" scene with everyone calling out to you felt like it was ripped straight out of Awakening.

Fates (Conquest):

Takumi as the final boss came a bit out of nowhere, but I'll take it. I really liked the map planning here, with trying to both rush forward to take him out while taking cover from the charge attacks. Again, the near death scene feels unneeded and ripped out of Awakening.

Fates (Revelation):

Gods, this endgame dragged on forever. First kill the hand, then the other hand, then the face, then the weird eyeball-core thing, THEN it's dead. The endless reinforcements didn't make the map any better, but this kind of a fight CAN be done well, as shown in the Heirs of Fate ending, which was really fun honestly.

Awakening

Man I love this endgame. It may have been fairly lackluster and simple, gameplay-wise, but man am I a sucker for a good story. I became really attached to the characters in Awakening, and I honestly couldn't make the decision to not submit to Grima. Even if my decision didn't matter, I wanted my friends to survive. It's why I landed the final blow to end Grima for good. Awakening's endgame made me feel like a part of the world, and like my decisions actually mattered, which I can't say was the same for Fates.

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Honestly, I'm playing through Conquest without DLC or anything external that'd make it easier on myself. I started on Awakening and naturally, as a beginner, chose casual, I've done the same whenever the option's available to me because I like the availability of characters being present again, though I can understand entirely the reason that people play it classic.

So, yes, I'm playing on Casual but I adapt my strategies based on the circumstances of the battlefield. Honestly I think my two singlemost difficult chapters were 10 and 17. 10 because I wasn't taking it very seriously and 17 because it actually felt kind of overwhelming. (Even managed to get trapped in the northernmost room on Chapter 17 once). Personally, I don't think the game itself is very difficult per se, but I think that most newbies are under the impression that it's more action-oriented due to them being pulled in from Smash Bros.

Critical thinking and analysis are necessary to become a great tactician, which I think some people need to at least improve on.

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I do enjoy Awakening more than Fates, simply because I found it more enjoyable to play. I played Birthright and Revelation, and both were somewhat boring and lacking in the story. I did managed to get attached to some of the characters, but not many. I found it difficult to care about what happened to some of them, because they just didn't mean anything to me. Awakening's characters are better in my eyes, and I grew attached to many of them. The ending was also better - quick and dirty, defeat Grima once and that's it. The need to defeat the boss multiple times can be done well, but it wasn't in the case of Fates.

Don't get me wrong, I still enjoyed Fates. I just think it tried too hard to be like Awakening (Birthright and Revelation did, anyways - I hear Conquest is more like previous Fire Emblems) and didn't do it well.

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I hear Conquest is more like previous Fire Emblems

The gameplay is PHENOMENAL.

Edit: Sorry about the post, I misread your meaning. Edited.

Edited by shadowofchaos

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The gameplay is PHENOMENAL.

Edit: Sorry about the post, I misread your meaning. Edited.

That's what I hear from a lot of people. It's the only one I haven't played yet (not sure if I will). By previous Fire Emblems, I mean it's more difficult and varied than Awakening was in terms of objectives and map design.

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1) The Endgame

To be fair, Fates still hasn't released all their endgame content, but what they have is absolute garbage. So many pre-set units. I get it, they want to ensure there is a challenge, but what they have accomplished is to make it so that I have no connection to the units. Like the current Heirs of Fate arc. None of these kids are ones I created so I really don't care. Further part of the fun of this game is building your units the way you want to take on the game. This just circumvents this.

By contrast, Awakening just blows Fates out of the water. Hubba and his nonsense, Future Past, even the one-offs like Five-Anna are great.

What's funny, is I don't think these maps were supposed to be endgame content, but instead content you were able to simply... Just do, like any other DLC. And I for one prefer the Fates DLC. Nothing is worse than starting a new game, thinking "hey, let's try this DLC," and then the enemies are way, way, WAY out of your league. The DLC leaves a really foul taste in your mouth when you have stuff like that happen to you. Having fixed units sort of makes this less of a problem instead of having units able to be massively underpowered against overpowered foes. That's not fun to me.

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What's funny, is I don't think these maps were supposed to be endgame content, but instead content you were able to simply... Just do, like any other DLC. And I for one prefer the Fates DLC. Nothing is worse than starting a new game, thinking "hey, let's try this DLC," and then the enemies are way, way, WAY out of your league. The DLC leaves a really foul taste in your mouth when you have stuff like that happen to you. Having fixed units sort of makes this less of a problem instead of having units able to be massively underpowered against overpowered foes. That's not fun to me.

*distant screaming from the Apotheosis outrealm cause I can't strategy*

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*distant screaming from the Apotheosis outrealm cause I can't strategy*

Apotheosis is endgame content, so that's different from what they were saying.

If/Fates is wonderful in that it scales the enemies to your party's level. It's not perfect, but it's sure is a hell of a lot more fun that when Light and Dark (Rogues and Redeemers) first came out in Japan for Awakening.

I think the person who is ripping the Recollection of Bubbles/Heirs of Fate for having fixed units is missing the point of the DLC.

Part of the appeal of any fire emblem is that once you get to a level, you can beat it.

Regardless of your RNG screwing on stats, because on average, you will be able to utilize units to make up for it in regular chapter progression.

Awakening was the first to break this rule from the GBA on with their DLC.

By contrast, Awakening just blows Fates out of the water. Hubba and his nonsense, Future Past, even the one-offs like Five-Anna are great.

Keep in mind, their scaling sucked.

You had to put in hours to raise your units to the level to take on the entirety of the Holy War/Thracia cast in that DLC.

Imagine someone with the Conquest restrictions attempting Rogues and Redeemers.

I praise Awakening, but not for their difficulty scaling in DLC.

Saying Fates is garbage on DLC simply because they have fixed units only means you should have read the description and not bought the DLC.

Edited by shadowofchaos

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I prefer Fates' overall

It's gameplay is vastly superior, there's no ambush spawns, it has an amazing pair systems and some great maps with good gimmicks in Conquest

I think, overall, Fates' cast is stronger than Awakening's

I think the characters that are written well (which is most of them IMO) are significantly better than Awakening. However, I think that the badly written characters in Fates (Hisame, Peri, Soliel, Peri, Nina to an extent, Peri) are worse than Awakening's cast.

I'm neutral about the plots of both. Conquest is a complete mess but it has it's moments, Birthright makes sense but isn't as interesting, Revelations is ok, and Awakening has a good first arc, an ok second arc that has almost no plot relevance later on, and a meh third arc

Awakening did the children signicantly better than Fates' tho.

I also think Lilith and Izana's deaths specifically were horribly written. The rest I'm neutral on besides Elise, Ryoma, and Flora (all of which were fine IMO)

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I also think Lilith and Izana's deaths specifically were horribly written

I think Lilith's death was decently written in terms of execution in Conquest at least. The problem lies more in that trying to make you feel anything for Lilith was doomed from the start because she's not a character but a gameplay mechanic.

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I think Lilith's death was decently written in terms of execution in Conquest at least. The problem lies more in that trying to make you feel anything for Lilith was doomed from the start because she's not a character but a gameplay mechanic.

May i asked what you liked about it? No other character interacts with her other than Corrin outside of the very first map, and then all of a sudden Xander is there talking about her, seemingly unsurprised by her dragon form. Her input in the story in all three routes is minimal, and she doesn't actually say anything after introducing My Castle, so why they felt the need to kill her off is beyond me.

Hell, to take that further, I don't see why anyone died in the game aside from some people in Conquest, but that's to be expected in a story about, well, conquest, and even then they piss all over it in the final chapter anyway.

I welcome their attempts at trying to raise the stakes and make the story more tense, but they failed on every level, and the deaths felt so contrived and artificial that I just couldn't take them seriously.

Edited by Thane

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May i asked what you liked about it?

You may ask but I can't really give an answer because I really don't like the scene per se. I said it was ''decent'' which implies more of a indifference then a liking. I thought the scene, should you take it solely by itself was okay. Nothing more and nothing less.

No other character interacts with her other than Corrin outside of the very first map, and then all of a sudden Xander is there talking about her, seemingly unsurprised by her dragon form. Her input in the story in all three routes is minimal, and she doesn't actually say anything after introducing My Castle, so why they felt the need to kill her off is beyond me.

I agree and that was why I wrote down that trying to make you feel anything about Lilith who is a gameplay mechanic instead of a character was doomed from the start.

In short: what made Lilth's death laughable wasn't the death scene itself but everything else about Lilith.

Edited by Etrurian emperor

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You may ask but I can't really give an answer because I really don't like the scene per se. I said it was ''decent'' which implies more of a indifference then a liking. I thought the scene, should you take it solely by itself was okay. Nothing more and nothing less.

I agree and that was why I wrote down that trying to make you feel anything about Lilith who is a gameplay mechanic instead of a character was doomed from the start.

In short: what made Lilth's death laughable wasn't the death scene itself but everything else about Lilith.

I think the issue is not necessarily just that she's a gameplay mechanic, as pretty much everyone that isn't your lord is a gameplay mechanic. Azura is basically just "dance," etc. The issue here is that Lilith just kind of "appears" and then proceeds to die. So the initial reaction is "what are you doing here?" And then she dies-- and no one really has anything else to say about it. She wasn't doing anything beforehand, so she proceeds to have no effect before or after really. I mean, even a generic soldier death would have been more effective here than Lilith because it would show that the Nohrian soldiers in Corrin's group actually believe in him/her and are willing to die for their lord; They fight for more than out of a sense of duty. That solder's death signifies something. With Lilith, it amounts to... Uh... Nothing because she was effectively never "alive" in the story and she doesn't really have any goals or aspirations to mean anything outside of making Corrin feel powerless.

You're right that it doesn't help that you go back to your base and she's still there, but there are a myriad of things that just make this death stink.

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I think the issue is not necessarily just that she's a gameplay mechanic, as pretty much everyone that isn't your lord is a gameplay mechanic. Azura is basically just "dance," etc. The issue here is that Lilith just kind of "appears" and then proceeds to die. So the initial reaction is "what are you doing here?" And then she dies-- and no one really has anything else to say about it. She wasn't doing anything beforehand, so she proceeds to have no effect before or after really. I mean, even a generic soldier death would have been more effective here than Lilith because it would show that the Nohrian soldiers in Corrin's group actually believe in him/her and are willing to die for their lord; They fight for more than out of a sense of duty. That solder's death signifies something. With Lilith, it amounts to... Uh... Nothing because she was effectively never "alive" in the story and she doesn't really have any goals or aspirations to mean anything outside of making Corrin feel powerless.

You're right that it doesn't help that you go back to your base and she's still there, but there are a myriad of things that just make this death stink.

Indeed but I think Lilith was never ''alive'' and stuff because she was a gameplay mechanic first and character last. She was there to introduce my castle and that's about it.

Azura on the other hand does have a more defined personality, more defined relation with Corrin and bonds with plenty of characters so even if she's just there to dance I'd say she's a character in her own right while Lilith is a walking(uh floating) advertisement for a gameplay mechanic.

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Indeed but I think Lilith was never ''alive'' and stuff because she was a gameplay mechanic first and character last. She was there to introduce my castle and that's about it.

Azura on the other hand does have a more defined personality, more defined relation with Corrin and bonds with plenty of characters so even if she's just there to dance I'd say she's a character in her own right while Lilith is a walking(uh floating) advertisement for a gameplay mechanic.

Sure, I get what you're saying, but it's the same reason that Flora's death is so ineffective as well despite the fact that Flora isn't a gameplay mechanic. She just *appears* and the proceeds to get destroyed. Azura is alive in the sense that she has goals, and she talks to you, and contributes to the plot. Even characters like your captured units would bother you more from dying as they actually have presence and they are nothing but a gameplay mechanic (capture).

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Sure, I get what you're saying, but it's the same reason that Flora's death is so ineffective as well despite the fact that Flora isn't a gameplay mechanic. She just *appears* and the proceeds to get destroyed. Azura is alive in the sense that she has goals, and she talks to you, and contributes to the plot. Even characters like your captured units would bother you more from dying as they actually have presence and they are nothing but a gameplay mechanic (capture).

Exactly. If Lilith (or Flora) just appeared more in the story, said something, did something more before their deaths than maybe we would care more.

Like, even Awakening for all its rushed storytelling managed to do a better job on this, with major deaths we are supposed to care about having the characters actuall do stuff or at least talked about in the main plot.

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Exactly. If Lilith (or Flora) just appeared more in the story, said something, did something more before their deaths than maybe we would care more.

The thing about Flora is that she's arguably more important than any sister in all the routes, and is a much more developed character than them as well; she's by far one of my characters in the game. The only problem is that her death is so artificial and forced that it evokes no emotion from me; had she had a genuine reason to commit suicide, or if it had been hinted at earlier or whatever, it would've been effective.

Oh well, still not as bad as Xander's; the guy fails at everything he tries in the main story.

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The thing about Flora is that she's arguably more important than any sister in all the routes, and is a much more developed character than them as well; she's by far one of my characters in the game. The only problem is that her death is so artificial and forced that it evokes no emotion from me; had she had a genuine reason to commit suicide, or if it had been hinted at earlier or whatever, it would've been effective.

Oh well, still not as bad as Xander's; the guy fails at everything he tries in the main story.

But that's some of the reason it feels artificial is because she just kind of appears out of nowhere. She dies in such a bizarre way after reappearing that it's rendered pointless.

Xander's is bad because it basically has him saying "yeah, I know my father is hot garbage, but FOR NOHR!" There's literally nothing stopping him from just... Stopping. And Elise dies because Xander becomes pants-on-head stupid.

Flora's importance isn't relevant to the effectiveness of the death. It's the significance of their deaths that makes them matter. Take Ryoma for instance, his death actually has meaning in Conquest, because Ryoma killing himself is taking himself out so Corrin can proceed. it's an acknowledgement that he believes in Corrin --for better or worse. There's some significance to it. The writer's really don't seem to understand this, which is why most of the deaths in the game come across as a great example of bathos. The paths leading to the deaths are random and sometimes funny because of how stupidly forced they are. And it doesn't take a Starship Troopers mindset with how it handles death.

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But that's some of the reason it feels artificial is because she just kind of appears out of nowhere. She dies in such a bizarre way after reappearing that it's rendered pointless.

Xander's is bad because it basically has him saying "yeah, I know my father is hot garbage, but FOR NOHR!" There's literally nothing stopping him from just... Stopping. And Elise dies because Xander becomes pants-on-head stupid.

Flora's importance isn't relevant to the effectiveness of the death. It's the significance of their deaths that makes them matter. Take Ryoma for instance, his death actually has meaning in Conquest, because Ryoma killing himself is taking himself out so Corrin can proceed. it's an acknowledgement that he believes in Corrin --for better or worse. There's some significance to it. The writer's really don't seem to understand this, which is why most of the deaths in the game come across as a great example of bathos. The paths leading to the deaths are random and sometimes funny because of how stupidly forced they are. And it doesn't take a Starship Troopers mindset with how it handles death.

I kind of love how regardless of the route someone acts incredibly stupid. Like in Birthright its Xander being a complete moron, while on Conquest its Cornbread deciding "let's go invade Hoshido despite the fact it would probably be really easy to get everyone on board with just overthrowing Garon and then suing for peace with Hoshido. Nope, lets go get a bunch of soldiers on both sides killed, because I am smurt guyz"

You know, this is a bit off topic, but I think I would have liked Conquest a lot more if that hadn't happened. Like, I actually enjoyed its story until that point. It could have been so much more interesting if, say, Garon started the invasion and the rest of the plot was trying to gather the support and resources needed for a coup before ge could completely win the war.

Edited by TheWerdna

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But that's some of the reason it feels artificial is because she just kind of appears out of nowhere. She dies in such a bizarre way after reappearing that it's rendered pointless.

Xander's is bad because it basically has him saying "yeah, I know my father is hot garbage, but FOR NOHR!" There's literally nothing stopping him from just... Stopping. And Elise dies because Xander becomes pants-on-head stupid.

Flora's importance isn't relevant to the effectiveness of the death. It's the significance of their deaths that makes them matter. Take Ryoma for instance, his death actually has meaning in Conquest, because Ryoma killing himself is taking himself out so Corrin can proceed. it's an acknowledgement that he believes in Corrin --for better or worse. There's some significance to it. The writer's really don't seem to understand this, which is why most of the deaths in the game come across as a great example of bathos. The paths leading to the deaths are random and sometimes funny because of how stupidly forced they are. And it doesn't take a Starship Troopers mindset with how it handles death.

I don't understand; are you arguing against me or agreeing with me? Because like I said, Flora's death is executed horribly.

I kind of love how regardless of the route someone acts incredibly stupid. Like in Birthright its Xander being a complete moron, while on Conquest its Cornbread deciding "let's go invade Hoshido despite the fact it would probably be really easy to get everyone on board with just overthrowing Garon and then suing for peace with Hoshido. Nope, lets go get a bunch of soldiers on both sides killed, because I am smurt guyz"

I'd argue Xander is stupid in all routes.

In Birthright because of the aforementioned, in Conquest because it takes his father being a LITERAL monster for him to start revolting (as if Garon's actions alone weren't enough) and in Revelation it takes his father saying straight out that he wishes to destroy Nohr as well for him to act.

Xander is an idiot.

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I don't understand; are you arguing against me or agreeing with me? Because like I said, Flora's death is executed horribly.

I'd argue Xander is stupid in all routes.

In Birthright because of the aforementioned, in Conquest because it takes his father being a LITERAL monster for him to start revolting (as if Garon's actions alone weren't enough) and in Revelation it takes his father saying straight out that he wishes to destroy Nohr as well for him to act.

Xander is an idiot.

to be fair, on Conquest Corrin doesn't even attempt to convince him that Garon needs to be stopped besides the idiotic plan with the trone. Granted, he could have denied it anyways...

Edited by TheWerdna

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to be fair, on Conquest Corrin doesn't even attempt to convince him that Garon needs to be stopped besides the idiotic plan with the trone. Granted, he could have denied it anyways...

Well, he's portrayed as heroic, yet he does exactly what his father tells him to and invades an innocent nation. Why should we care about characters who not only have no moral compass, but also lack any sense of agency?

Conquest is essentially what Radiant Dawn would've been like if Ike decided that aiding Ashera made more sense, at least right up until the end.

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