Opinion of Soleil?

[Augestein]

Tharja is. . .interesting and complicated as all hell. Even if I think dad/Noire support is terrible on the basis that it focuses on Tharja instead of the two of them, it serves a purpose (and it's more than supposed child abuse). The three other people I did a semi-analysis were Cordelia (thank fucking goodness she can never be Lucina's mom), Severa (Cordy's death early in her life was beneficial IMO), and Inigo (who's got the same insecurity problem as Soliel, but handles it worse).

While I don't mind dissenting opinions, you're arguing on principle instead of content, without going into the intent of the content. The writers won't spell everything out for you, unless you're reading fiction aimed at younger children. If you want to dislike a character, I won't stop you, but at least take the time to look into WHY things are the way they are, especially with something like supports (you can thank Interceptor for this lesson).

You missed my point here. The point is that even if you do more supports with people, the issue is that the lower points are going to be remembered as well,, and can hurt the character. Even if they can potentially add to characterization, that doesn't mean that there isn't some negatives there. That also doesn't take away from their character, but at the same time, it doesn't help their character too much when you see say: 50 supports, and 40 of them have redundant info that talks about similar things and 10 of them give some actual interesting insight. That makes them minor aspects rather than major core aspects of the character. Especially when those characters aren't main characters. For instance, if I didn't actually pay attention to minor aspects, I wouldn't say that I have a preference for Female Robin over Male Robin in terms of character when the character is supposed to be a representation of the same person.

The principle of the matter and content are still one and the same here though. It's not a matter of the writers needing to spell everything out. It's a matter of stating the manner in which it is was written. I clearly stated I found her annoying after the intro because of how she was written-- her "depth" doesn't matter here. The same way I found the same thing with Inigo. It doesn't matter if there's mentioned of other aspects, it's still not done well. Think about someone like Florina, you can theory craft several reasons why or how she might be as socially dysfunctional as she is in general in comparison to her sisters, yes, but it still doesn't change the fact that in the end of the day, Florina spends a good deal of time stammering and retreating in her supports. You're skirting into a territory of basically saying "I didn't comprehend" what I read. I get it. The question was asked "do you like Soleil ," and the answer is no, and the reasoning for that, is because the writer's do not handle characterization like Soleil 's well-- and they did the same thing with Inigo in Awakening (the localization at least). Even without the other minor aspects, they aren't explored nearly in depth enough to make it worth mentioning as bona fide characterization. This is especially problematic in a video game, considering there's tons of optional content that a person may or may not see, it's not a good idea to overall to have most supports be that way, when the likelihood of running into a good support are significantly lower than... Well, more popular characters that people think have good/better characterization.

Especially when the reality is that such characterization makes for debatable "conflict or character" rather than "enhancement of character." it doesn't make her less one dimensional when you have her be socially awkward and hitting on girls because her social awkwardness is dwarfed by the aspect of hitting on girls rather than merely speaking in an oddball manner to other people-- like say Odin. Even if you analyze that it's that she likes cute things, this gets trumped by the fact that she considers girls cute and goes crazy over them because she loves cute things. We don't get to see Soleil She doesn't know boundaries? Just helps her to harass people into submission. That's not well done is all people are saying here. We get it (I probably shouldn't speak for others here), and we've seen this down better with other characters within the whole series, or this game for that matter. With Laslow, her father, being the prime example here. He has almost the exact same traits Soleil does on the account that he's actually Inigo from Awakening, and the characterization is written more as a solid foundation for him rather than a "oh by the way, he does this too."

That's the issue with Soleil. I mean, imagine if someone like Serra had as many supports as Soleil, that would mean that most of her characterization would be her being super sassy to people and that would overtake her other aspects such as her insecurities with herself, or her caring nature of helping people like Florina to become more assertive. Soleil's problem is the same thing here. You have to isolate choice supports, which should be to the credit of the character that pulls this out of her, not Soleil herself.

I know it seems like I'm launching a ton of walls here, but I think it should be discussed with more than a few sentences since it seems we aren't completely on the same wavelength in our disagreement here.

[Azure Sen]

Leaving aside the touchy issue of her sexuality, Soleil is just a badly written cliche with nothing to distinguish her from other characters like her. Her support with Ophelia is bad enough, but her questionable interactions with her mother and her supports with Ignatius and Siegbert showing that her idea of "fun" is sexual harassment and stalking really just made her completely unlikable to me. Her other personality traits just sort of exist without actually adding anything interesting to her characterization, and are just carbon copies of Laslow/Inigo's personality traits, except without the occasional kindness, consideration of others' feelings, moments of introspection and genuine insecurities that gave her father the depth she lacks. The whole "gotta force myself to smile!" comes off as especially poorly handled to me because, unlike Laslow/Inigo, she doesn't have that moment like Inigo had with Chrom his father that indicates her cheerfulness is anything less than authentic or that indicates she has an actual reason why she developed that mindset.

As for the localization changes, the ones made frankly weren't enough. Scrapping her original support with Forrest was definitely for the best, but keeping in the support with Ophelia without at least toning it down when it's just as bad pretty much killed any goodwill getting rid of the former earned from me.

Related to the ongoing discussion: having multiple character traits doesn't automatically mean a character has depth, or even make them more than one-dimensional. Soleil lacks depth because she doesn't change as a person in any of her supports. She never learns that her stalking and harassment is wrong, she doesn't become a better singer or dancer, and none of her interactions with others reveal things about her that we didn't already know, either explicitly or implicitly. She doesn't have any mystery or layers to her character; all of her character traits are fully on display in her paralogue, and her supports don't reveal anything except the extent of them. Even if the game had tried to give layers to her personality it would be ruined because she's, again, a carbon copy of Laslow/Inigo.

[Jakkun]

While I don't think Soleil is one-note--and I do see a lot of good things with her character, but she also consistently harasses not just Ophelia (although that's the more egregious example) but several other female gen2s as well. If she was just a bit flirty and doesn't constantly harass people who are clearly uncomfortable--including being creepy to her mom, I would like her a lot more.

Like, there is being flirty and even annoyingly so, but doing it to your mom, and also the implications of what she'd do with Ophelia's body is...pretty sketch.

This, eclipse. Thor here pretty much said what I was trying to say but better.

I don't hate her character, but interesting character traits can easily be clouded by her harassment of others, and said harassment is my main issue with the character. "Hate the Sin, not the Sinner", as they say.

I apologize if this isn't a good enough reason to dislike her, and I will admit me calling her "scum" in another thread was a bit much, but I think being disgusted by her actions to Ophelia and her mom, even a little bit, is somewhat justified, especially when I think those 2 supports in particular could be so much better.

On a positive note: I do like how mature we are handling this character discussion thread overall, maybe im used to seeing Soliel hate threads, but its...refreshing.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Jakkun

[Loki Laufeyson]

Soleil as a whole doesnt bother me. I do not like her supports with certain people, however. But overall, im not that arsed about the character. I really think localization tried to help her case. The Japanese supports and text were pretty terrible. Its no secret that Japan has a pretty....unfortunate view of certain sexualities and hoo boy does it show in their entertainment. Asking Japan to write a good LBGT character representation is like asking Joss Whedon to stop writing pointless snark. Localization had a lot to deal with and they decided not to erase her core character. (which they totally could have for the sake of "not offending") So they did what they could without deleting the original characterization or "covering it up". I applaud them for trying this. Im ok with Soleil's S supports mostly being "just friends". While, ideally, localizing it so she can S support a female character (namely feMU) would be best. They couldnt do that for obvious reasons. So we got what we got.

[eclipse]

This, eclipse. Thor here pretty much said what I was trying to say but better.

I don't hate her character, but interesting character traits can easily be clouded by her harassment of others, and said harassment is my main issue with the character. "Hate the Sin, not the Sinner", as they say.

I apologize if this isn't a good enough reason to dislike her, and I will admit me calling her "scum" in another thread was a bit much, but I think being disgusted by her actions to Ophelia and her mom, even a little bit, is somewhat justified, especially when I think those 2 supports in particular could be so much better.

On a positive note: I do like how mature we are handling this character discussion thread overall, maybe im used to seeing Soliel hate threads, but its...refreshing.

Probably because I'd start actually being a mod if that happened. Which it hasn't, thankfully, so I can go back to being a regular poster who makes giant walls of text.

I'm discouraged by the responses in here - rather than asking the all-important question of "why are you doing this?", it's "this has happened, and it's offending me, so I don't like it". Furthermore, I think the reactions are overblown, because in every last one except for one, Soliel winds up a better person (and before anyone gets stupidly judgmental off of C supports, let me remind you that we humans are more than capable of fucking up socially, and forgiving people for their past mistakes is a good thing, especially when said person tries to mend their ways). "But that doesn't matter, she's still bad for doing something bad". Then I hope you hate Nina as well, because it's hypocritical to judge Soliel on stalking/harassment without applying that same measure to everyone.

[edgelordweeb]

Her entire personality pretty much amounts to "I'm bisexual. I really like girls!" so I don't think she's that great of a character.

[Thor Odinson]

I do think she is a victim of the development-resetting support system--where she can become a better person in one A, only to reach another C and start all over again.

Fwiw, talking about Nina purely as a character, I do strongly dislike her stalking and fetishization of homosexuality as well. I think, like Soleil, she does have good material. The Robin Hood complex and her relationship with dad is interesting, but it's underutilized in favor of "lol yaoi fangirl who does real life shipping". The only reason why I have kind of soft spot for her is purely gameplay for saving chapter 25 for me on lunatic.

I wouldn't say I hate either, but I think both can be handled a lot better.

tl;dr pls just less repetitive supports thx

Edited May 4, 2016 by Thor Odinson

[Sunwoo]

I'm discouraged by the responses in here - rather than asking the all-important question of "why are you doing this?", it's "this has happened, and it's offending me, so I don't like it". Furthermore, I think the reactions are overblown, because in every last one except for one, Soliel winds up a better person (and before anyone gets stupidly judgmental off of C supports, let me remind you that we humans are more than capable of fucking up socially, and forgiving people for their past mistakes is a good thing, especially when said person tries to mend their ways). "But that doesn't matter, she's still bad for doing something bad". Then I hope you hate Nina as well, because it's hypocritical to judge Soliel on stalking/harassment without applying that same measure to everyone.

I'm not required to like Soleil just because she "improves" at the end of the support chain, especially when the structure of Fates' (and Awakening's) support conversations can have it so that Soleil can "improve" at the end of one person's support chain but go right back to her more questionable sections as she starts a C with someone else. This is not a problem limited to just her. But like how I don't have to like or even interact with someone IRL who pisses me off but then was sorry and tried to make amends, I don't have to like a fictional character if there is something that makes me uncomfortable and I find hard to just overlook. And there's nothing wrong with that. Not everyone will like everyone, and not everyone will like every character.

And for the record, I DON'T like Nina either.

[Augestein]

Probably because I'd start actually being a mod if that happened. Which it hasn't, thankfully, so I can go back to being a regular poster who makes giant walls of text.

I'm discouraged by the responses in here - rather than asking the all-important question of "why are you doing this?", it's "this has happened, and it's offending me, so I don't like it". Furthermore, I think the reactions are overblown, because in every last one except for one, Soliel winds up a better person (and before anyone gets stupidly judgmental off of C supports, let me remind you that we humans are more than capable of fucking up socially, and forgiving people for their past mistakes is a good thing, especially when said person tries to mend their ways). "But that doesn't matter, she's still bad for doing something bad". Then I hope you hate Nina as well, because it's hypocritical to judge Soliel on stalking/harassment without applying that same measure to everyone.

So explain how she becomes a better person in Female Corrin's support for instance. Rank A, Corrin basically blackmails her that she'll reveal that she can't dance to people if she doesn't leave her alone with being solicited. This is after Corrin tried to give Soleil a compliment when she said that Soleil being embarrassed about her lack of fancy feet made her more easily related to as a human being. But it gets better, because this actually goes against what Soleil says in her first support of "Why spend my time caring what other people think? Who needs the hassle?" Which changes the entire perspective of it. Because instead of it just being her philosophy of not caring what other people think-- an admirable trait, it turns out that it was a ploy to try to get Corrin to strip as well and changes the entire context of : "Oh? Well, it was worth a try..." She wasn't trying to get Corrin to not think about what people think about her at all. So there, C and A are ruined. But wait, what about B?

Stage B is a disaster for saving this. Where Corrin is so taken aback from Soleil's antics that she stammers about it and she says "I saw you..." Of which, Soleil's response is naturally "like what you see?" THIS is the problem with her characterization. From the supports I've seen, they do stuff like this. I'll admit that I haven't used Niles too much, so I haven't actually gotten Nina, so I can't say for sure on her, but I can say that Soleil is a definite miss for me. But then again, Inigo was a miss for me as well, so that should come as no surprise that a female version of him would be the same.

[eclipse]

So explain how she becomes a better person in Female Corrin's support for instance. Rank A, Corrin basically blackmails her that she'll reveal that she can't dance to people if she doesn't leave her alone with being solicited. This is after Corrin tried to give Soleil a compliment when she said that Soleil being embarrassed about her lack of fancy feet made her more easily related to as a human being. But it gets better, because this actually goes against what Soleil says in her first support of "Why spend my time caring what other people think? Who needs the hassle?" Which changes the entire perspective of it. Because instead of it just being her philosophy of not caring what other people think-- an admirable trait, it turns out that it was a ploy to try to get Corrin to strip as well and changes the entire context of : "Oh? Well, it was worth a try..." She wasn't trying to get Corrin to not think about what people think about her at all. So there, C and A are ruined. But wait, what about B?

Stage B is a disaster for saving this. Where Corrin is so taken aback from Soleil's antics that she stammers about it and she says "I saw you..." Of which, Soleil's response is naturally "like what you see?" THIS is the problem with her characterization. From the supports I've seen, they do stuff like this. I'll admit that I haven't used Niles too much, so I haven't actually gotten Nina, so I can't say for sure on her, but I can say that Soleil is a definite miss for me. But then again, Inigo was a miss for me as well, so that should come as no surprise that a female version of him would be the same.

I feel like I'm repeating myself, in a bad way. That quote you gave on Avatar regarding how Soliel sees others? Soliel expressed the exact same sentiment in Siegbert's B support, and I stated that. Twice.

Part of the blame in female Avatar/Soliel IMO is on Avatar, because instead of pressing towards a conclusion, she just randomly backs off. Avatar had two opportunities to do this, as follows:

Avatar: So that's your philosophy?

Soleil: Yeah! You should try it. I bet it won't be as embarrassing as you think.

Avatar: Is that actually your answer?

Soleil: Well, yeah. A cute girl is a cute girl, no two ways about it. I get feelings about that! I can't keep them bottled up inside! Why, what do you do when you see a cute girl? Just stare silently without telling her? THAT, I'd be ashamed of. Sounds to me like you're missing out on life.

(that's C and B, respectively)

Both of those could be followed by some sort of logical conclusion ("You're making yourself look bad, Soliel, tone it down"). Given Soliel's insecurity, which is covered by overcompensation, the best way to get through that is to do something that breaks the overcompensation, and hits the insecurity. For example. . .

Ophelia: Soleil, you dunderhead!

Soleil: What did I do?!

Ophelia: I thought surely that spell would make you see the error of your ways. My plan was to have you swear not to chase me as a condition for restoring you. THEN maybe we could be normal friends!

Soleil: Uh...

Ophelia: But no...you'll never change, I suppose. You'll never listen to my pleas... You'll always hound me, try as I might to hide. W-well, see if I care! *sniff* *sob*

(Ophelia leaves)

Soleil: O-Ophelia... ...I think I messed up somewhere.

It required a direct insult to Soliel (gets her attention), telling Soliel she's wrong (breaks through the overcompensation), reinforcing the fact that Soliel's not going to change (which is big for someone who's insecure), and tears before she got the hint.

So what did Soliel get out of her support with Avatar? A bit of self-confidence about her dancing, something she is extremely insecure about. What did Avatar get? A facepalm from me for being too indirect about the entire support (having to resort to blackmail instead of directly telling Soliel that she's being utterly unreasonable is a piss-poor representation of Yours Truly). Though if you think Soliel's hypocritical based on her views/actions expressed in Avatar's C/A supports, that's something I can buy.

Check out the Nina/Dwyer support, and compare it to Soliel/mom or Soliel/Ophelia (worst of the worst and all). There's a reason why it pisses me off to the point where I don't mind Soliel as a character.

[Jakkun]

Probably because I'd start actually being a mod if that happened. Which it hasn't, thankfully, so I can go back to being a regular poster who makes giant walls of text.

I'm discouraged by the responses in here - rather than asking the all-important question of "why are you doing this?", it's "this has happened, and it's offending me, so I don't like it". Furthermore, I think the reactions are overblown, because in every last one except for one, Soliel winds up a better person (and before anyone gets stupidly judgmental off of C supports, let me remind you that we humans are more than capable of fucking up socially, and forgiving people for their past mistakes is a good thing, especially when said person tries to mend their ways). "But that doesn't matter, she's still bad for doing something bad". Then I hope you hate Nina as well, because it's hypocritical to judge Soliel on stalking/harassment without applying that same measure to everyone.

hate is a strong word; i'm not much of a fan of Nina but I don't hate her. I dont hate Soliel either, at the end of the day. As I said in my last post I find Soliel's girl obsession annoying because it feels like fluff that overshadows her good points, good points that I am very well aware that she does have. Just as well I do find Nina's Yaoi obsession annoying too, however I feel that its less...overblown as opposed to Soliel's trait. I was gonna say that Nina doesn't drag others down with her like Soliel does, but I do remember you telling me about Nina x Dwyer support so I will concede on that part. I dont play favourites to the extent where I will ignore a character's flaws just because I like them, and vice-versa. Case in point: I like Azama because for some reason, I find his nihilism absurdism funny, but I will not deny that the man is a massive douche and gives people shit in his supports with them.

I really wish we don't have to butt heads about this, especially since I legit thought this discussion was going rather smoothly. I do feel I should say that finding things offensive is a valid point in this thread, considering its an opinion thread and one of the poll options states general statements like "her personality sucks".

I'm just gonna lay the supports that irked me to the point of speaking up in this thread, and you can tear into it at your leisure.

Her Mother: to a degree I can relate to her, when I was younger I thought my mom was pretty, so I dont think there's anything wrong with telling your mom that she looks nice every now and then. Also Soliel has a desire to help her mom with chores and stuff. This is a case of something that's hard to see because she can't stop calling her cute every 2 seconds. If you wanna be optimistic you could just assume that the whole asking her out to tea thing was completely platonic in nature and she just wanted to do something nice for her mom, but she acts the same as she does with any other girl that she's crushing on.

Ophelia: This is the common support that people focus on. I feel that its been talked about to the point where I cant elaborate on it any further, so I'll just say that Soliel planning on having fun with Ophelia's body was in poor taste.

Forrest (JP): In this support, Soliel falls for Forrest because he looks like a cute girl. Forrest insists that he is a man and would like to be treated as such, and Soliel asks him to prove that he is a man by undressing. Now i'm just using the fan translation here so I cant say for sure if the original japanese specified if she wanted Forrest to take off his shirt, or pants or whatever, but regardless of the situation or what article of clothing this is, its flat out unacceptable. This pretty much is a perfect cross of both our points. Yours in the sense that she's incredibly awkward to the point where she sees no problem with undressing, and mine in the fact that her trait feels overblown to the point in which it causes the detriment of others, and ends up making her look bad as a result.

Now these things are definitely forgivable, not once did I state that this is so horrible that Forrest/Ophelia/Mom should just stop talking to her outright, but at the very least it is an issue that should be adressed. Maybe i'm just too stuck in my own way of thinking here, but if I put myself in Soliel's shoes and run those scenarios in my head, the second the recipient starts feeling uncomfortable, something should click, saying "maybe I should stop." At the very least, its a good indicator that she isn't wooing the girl she's trying to flirt with.

should I feel bad for expressing what I feel is a justifiable opinion on a thread that asks for my opinion on a character? I dunno, but here it is.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Jakkun

[eclipse]

hate is a strong word; i'm not much of a fan of Nina but I don't hate her. I dont hate Soliel either, at the end of the day. As I said in my last post I find Soliel's girl obsession annoying because it feels like fluff that overshadows her good points, good points that I am very well aware that she does have. Just as well I do find Nina's Yaoi obsession annoying too, however I feel that its less...overblown as opposed to Soliel's trait. I was gonna say that Nina doesn't drag others down with her like Soliel does, but I do remember you telling me about Nina x Dwyer support so I will concede on that part. I dont play favourites to the extent where I will ignore a character's flaws just because I like them, and vice-versa. Case in point: I like Azama because for some reason, I find his nihilism absurdism funny, but I will not deny that the man is a massive douche and gives people shit in his supports with them.

I really wish we don't have to butt heads about this, especially since I legit thought this discussion was going rather smoothly. I do feel I should say that finding things offensive is a valid point in this thread, considering its an opinion thread and one of the poll options states general statements like "her personality sucks".

I'm just gonna lay the supports that irked me to the point of speaking up in this thread, and you can tear into it at your leisure.

Her Mother: to a degree I can relate to her, when I was younger I thought my mom was pretty, so I dont think there's anything wrong with telling your mom that she looks nice every now and then. Also Soliel has a desire to help her mom with chores and stuff. This is a case of something that's hard to see because she can't stop calling her cute every 2 seconds. If you wanna be optimistic you could just assume that the whole asking her out to tea thing was completely platonic in nature and she just wanted to do something nice for her mom, but she acts the same as she does with any other girl that she's crushing on.

Ophelia: This is the common support that people focus on. I feel that its been talked about to the point where I cant elaborate on it any further, so I'll just say that Soliel planning on having fun with Ophelia's body was in poor taste.

Forrest (JP): In this support, Soliel falls for Forrest because he looks like a cute girl. Forrest insists that he is a man and would like to be treated as such, and Soliel asks him to prove that he is a man by undressing. Now i'm just using the fan translation here so I cant say for sure if the original japanese specified if she wanted Forrest to take off his shirt, or pants or whatever, but regardless of the situation or what article of clothing this is, its flat out unacceptable. This pretty much is a perfect cross of both our points. Yours in the sense that she's incredibly awkward to the point where she sees no problem with undressing, and mine in the fact that her trait feels overblown to the point in which it causes the detriment of others, and ends up making her look bad as a result.

Now these things are definitely forgivable, not once did I state that this is so horrible that Forrest/Ophelia/Mom should just stop talking to her outright, but at the very least it is an issue that should be adressed. Maybe i'm just too stuck in my own way of thinking here, but if I put myself in Soliel's shoes and run those scenarios in my head, the second the recipient starts feeling uncomfortable, something should click, saying "maybe I should stop." At the very least, its a good indicator that she isn't wooing the girl she's trying to flirt with.

should I feel bad for expressing what I feel is a justifiable opinion on a thread that asks for my opinion on a character? I dunno, but here it is.

I have both objective and subjective reasons for feeling the way I do about Nina. The subjective I'll leave alone. Objectively, the parts of Nina's character that are actual detriments aren't addressed in such a way that she's forced to change. This is in stark contrast to Soliel, who gets called out on the worst of her behavior (mostly).

I'm sick and tired of people bashing things based on shallow assumptions, and this is something that's been a sore spot for my entire life. Like or dislike a character/game/principle/person, that's one thing. Hell, write out something well-reasoned that shows "hey I actually cared enough to research this", and I'll probably acknowledge that point of view (even if I won't agree with it). However, what I see in this thread is a lot of judgment with very little analysis.

Should you feel bad for having an opinion? Only if it's outright malicious (PM me for examples, you aren't even close to that line). If it's something that's ill-informed or inconsistent ("hey character A is a monster for doing this but character B does the same thing and is cool in my books"), I'll point it out, and how subtle I am will depend on how I feel. If you REALLY want to know how I think. . .go read the stuff in the mafia subforum. . .but do so at your own risk (it's a game about arguing).

What do I think of your opinion? I don't think your personality is anything like Soliel's projected one, which is why I think the concept of "fake it 'til you make it, never mind what others think" isn't something you can plop yourself into readily (this isn't a bad thing), so I think it would be best to agree to disagree. I also think that you possess a good amount of empathy, and that's an admirable quality. As for me? I kind of understand what it means to smile through a bad mood, and I've dealt with too many people who act on their own feelings first and foremost. It's not too hard to put the two together in my mind.

[Augestein]

I feel like I'm repeating myself, in a bad way. That quote you gave on Avatar regarding how Soliel sees others? Soliel expressed the exact same sentiment in Siegbert's B support, and I stated that. Twice.

Part of the blame in female Avatar/Soliel IMO is on Avatar, because instead of pressing towards a conclusion, she just randomly backs off. Avatar had two opportunities to do this, as follows:

She doesn't express the same sentiment here. Because in one she tries to get Female Avatar to undress as well, and she does not try to do that for Siegbert. Had she done that, it would have been far better and actually made a good point for you. Here? It doesn't. We can't actually tell if she truly believes that or just says that to excuse herself for indiscriminately poor behavior. Especially when in A she does herself no favors because of course she can't remember what she told him the other day because she can't remember anything but girls' faces. This is what I meant when I said I think you're over-analyzing, because it's reaching a point where I'm pretty certain this is not the case, and that the writer simply wants you to take what she does at face value.

No. It's not just the Avatar's fault. What it sounds like for you, is that you personally like Soleil and give her far more wiggle room than other characters. Avatar shouldn't have to put up with that regardless. No one should: insecure or not. As a matter of fact, Soleil manages to press even the Avatar to feel as though they should do horrid things, as blackmail is a terrible thing to do to someone. If anything, Soleil's support does more for the Avatar, as it humanizes Avatar somewhat. Though, I do get it, it's odd liking a character that most people don't particularly care for. I also get how that can be read that way if you wanted, but I don't see it. Sorry, the text got clipped off. Believe me, I have the virtue of kind of having a particular fondness to Sumia of all people.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Augestein

[Dandy Druid]

Soleil is a poorly written character...

1)She's called bisexual and flirts with girls all the time, but she can't S Support them? I know there's a Japanese TV Trope for that, but the localization team made her sound bisexual, which has a completely different meaning than that TV Trope. They should've edited her lines better.

2)I know a lot of characters have a certain gimmick they stick to, but hers isn't really that interesting. No one just goes around yelling they're LGBT this, LGBT that. Sure, they're people that are proud to be that, but they're more than just their sexuality. Sexuality =/= Personality. If you're going to push a LGBT trait, there's better ways to do it than how Soleil turned out.

3)Her supports with her parents are weird too. I know the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree, since Laslow also likes to flirt with girls. But, he has shown on plenty of other times to be more than just a flirt.

4)She's actually a good unit to use in battle though. With the right mother (rec. Selena, Camila, Beruka), she can be a pretty strong unit.