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Thoughts about the new weapon system


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Agreed - in general, my big gripe with durability is that it encouraged hoarding, and at worst, can even result in people outright refusing to use anything that can't be easily replaced; hell, Awakening tried to avert Too Awesome to Use, and imo, didn't even do that good a job of it.

Yeah, I always had trouble bringing myself to use any of the really superpowerful weapons before Fates because I was worried about breaking them. It made those weapons feel more valuable than the standard store-buyable stuff, true, but I'd rather keep Fates's infinite-use weapons that are balanced in buffs/debuffs/other stuff for future FEs.

I'd also like to add that while hidden weapons are useful for you, they are much more useful for the enemy due to their large numerical advantage over you.

This is true.

Especially when Inevitable End exists.

Yeah, the weapon system has remained mostly the same for more than twenty years (with the exception of RD)

My apologies, but I never played Radiant Dawn (wish I had, PoR is fun), so, um, how exactly did Radiant Dawn change the weapon system? It kinda looked the same when I read an LP of it, but I could've missed something.
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Yeah, I always had trouble bringing myself to use any of the really superpowerful weapons before Fates because I was worried about breaking them. It made those weapons feel more valuable than the standard store-buyable stuff, true, but I'd rather keep Fates's infinite-use weapons that are balanced in buffs/debuffs/other stuff for future FEs.

This is true.

Especially when Inevitable End exists.

My apologies, but I never played Radiant Dawn (wish I had, PoR is fun), so, um, how exactly did Radiant Dawn change the weapon system? It kinda looked the same when I read an LP of it, but I could've missed something.

Crossbows mostly. But it wasn't really that big of a change when I think about it

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Yeah, I always had trouble bringing myself to use any of the really superpowerful weapons before Fates because I was worried about breaking them. It made those weapons feel more valuable than the standard store-buyable stuff, true, but I'd rather keep Fates's infinite-use weapons that are balanced in buffs/debuffs/other stuff for future FEs.

This is true.

Especially when Inevitable End exists.

My apologies, but I never played Radiant Dawn (wish I had, PoR is fun), so, um, how exactly did Radiant Dawn change the weapon system? It kinda looked the same when I read an LP of it, but I could've missed something.

In Fates, we can smith weapons that are stronger than any divine weapon. 'Infinite' use was previously seen in RD (or in earlier installments but I'm not sure since it has been 8 years since I played anything prior to Gaiden and my memory is rather off right now) in the endgames' final three segments then it was semi-introduced in Awakening due to the skill Armsthrift. Fates generally applied a 100% Armsthrift to anything that can be used as a weapon in-game.

In PoR and RD, Knives/Daggers and Bows had no advantage or weakness to other weapons. I don't think this is what he was referring to though. Knives had lower attack but could hit at 1-2 range. Daggers had higher attack but could only work if you were adjacent to the enemy. They were more practical considering only 3 units could use them, one of them joined lategame.

Crossbows mostly. But it wasn't really that big of a change when I think about it

Crossbows in RD were a nightmare in the enemy's hands (being superior against flyers that weren't Draco-Wyvern or that had Nullify equipped and having 1-2 range makes them even more deadly) but they were just about useless against those who didn't take the bonus damage and had pretty high Defense. Naesala could tank one hit from one at full HP if he got lucky and come out with about 5-10 HP left. Tibarn took a hefty 50-70% at 100% HP if Pavise didn't activate. The fact that it averted the normal weapon specs: Crossbows tripled the Might of the weapon (if it would deal bonus damage to the enemy) then added that Might to the user's Strength Stat before being subtracted from the target's Defense Stat. It also made it hard for any flyer not named Draco-Wyvern or a Pegasus/Falcon/Seraph Knight with Nullify to even remain in the area of an enemy who could OHKO your unfortunate unit. Then there are those Crossbow units in Part 2 Chapter 2 (Fog of War) and Part 2 Endgame (in the hands of a Warrior which is ugly enough) that could get the jump on you. I miss the use of actual Crossbows now that you brought them up.

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Radiant Dawn did have Wind Edges (1~2-range swords that could double), which made for some potentially insane Trueblade skill builds. Forged Knives also existed and were pretty silly because even transfer-less Sothe could almost solo Part 1 with them. In short, all beorc got 1~2-range, putting those without terrible stats on relatively even footing. Then the 1-range-locked laguz were put in because the devs hated them to highlight just why everyone and their mother being able to sweep half a map maybe wasn't such a great idea.

EDIT: Crossbows in RD don't actually add Str to their attack. Their Mt was entirely their weapon damage and that's what made them bad against any enemy with decent Def that they weren't effective against (granted, Corrosion!Shinon with one was hilarious, if horribly inefficient), yet ridiculous against any that were (because 24*3 Attack for just the base Bowgun is kind of insane). Unfortunately for the player, most of the enemy fliers are Dracoknights, who aren't weak to bows. Fortunately, Beastfoe exists and there's several tough chapters full of beasts.

Edited by Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi
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In Fates, we can smith weapons that are stronger than any divine weapon. 'Infinite' use was previously seen in RD (or in earlier installments but I'm not sure since it has been 8 years since I played anything prior to Gaiden and my memory is rather off right now) in the endgames' final three segments then it was semi-introduced in Awakening due to the skill Armsthrift. Fates generally applied a 100% Armsthrift to anything that can be used as a weapon in-game.

In PoR and RD, Knives/Daggers and Bows had no advantage or weakness to other weapons. I don't think this is what he was referring to though. Knives had lower attack but could hit at 1-2 range. Daggers had higher attack but could only work if you were adjacent to the enemy. They were more practical considering only 3 units could use them, one of them joined lategame.

That sounds pretty neat, haha. Kinda wish Daggers/Shuriken had been like that now (maybe with the 1-range versions giving better debuffs?).

Crossbows in RD were a nightmare in the enemy's hands (being superior against flyers that weren't Draco-Wyvern or that had Nullify equipped and having 1-2 range makes them even more deadly) but they were just about useless against those who didn't take the bonus damage and had pretty high Defense. Naesala could tank one hit from one at full HP if he got lucky and come out with about 5-10 HP left. Tibarn took a hefty 50-70% at 100% HP if Pavise didn't activate. The fact that it averted the normal weapon specs: Crossbows tripled the Might of the weapon (if it would deal bonus damage to the enemy) then added that Might to the user's Strength Stat before being subtracted from the target's Defense Stat. It also made it hard for any flyer not named Draco-Wyvern or a Pegasus/Falcon/Seraph Knight with Nullify to even remain in the area of an enemy who could OHKO your unfortunate unit. Then there are those Crossbow units in Part 2 Chapter 2 (Fog of War) and Part 2 Endgame (in the hands of a Warrior which is ugly enough) that could get the jump on you. I miss the use of actual Crossbows now that you brought them up.

Damn, that reminds me of why I always hesitate to use pegasi and wyverns. I always end up worrying that someone I didn't notice'll walk up and arrow my flier to death, which is bad. Couldn't ever bring myself to use them in Fog of War maps for that reason too.

Didn't help that the first Pegasus Knight I could use, Florina, was weak and fragile even when I didn't have to worry about instant-death-by-bows. Kinda soured me on fliers for a while.

Also, isn't triple damage the normal increase for effective weapons?

And now I kinda wish Crossbows were in Fates, mostly to see how they'd be balanced.

Gonna put that on my wishlist, alongside more Dragonstones, a couple more Beaststones, the Restore staff, and the Pirate and Warrior classes (I dunno if those last two would add much, I just miss them).

Radiant Dawn did have Wind Edges (1~2-range swords that could double), which made for some potentially insane Trueblade skill builds. Forged Knives also existed and were pretty silly because even transfer-less Sothe could almost solo Part 1 with them. In short, all beorc got 1~2-range, putting those without terrible stats on relatively even footing. Then the 1-range-locked laguz were put in because the devs hated them to highlight just why everyone and their mother being able to sweep half a map maybe wasn't such a great idea.

EDIT: Crossbows in RD don't actually add Str to their attack. Their Mt was entirely their weapon damage and that's what made them bad against any enemy with decent Def that they weren't effective against (granted, Corrosion!Shinon with one was hilarious, if horribly inefficient), yet ridiculous against any that were (because 24*3 Attack for just the base Bowgun is kind of insane). Unfortunately for the player, most of the enemy fliers are Dracoknights, who aren't weak to bows. Fortunately, Beastfoe exists and there's several tough chapters full of beasts.

If I recall correctly (admittedly, just from a Let's Play I read, so I could be wrong), Crossbows can also attack at 1-range, right? So between that and effective damage skills (if I recall correctly, there are other -foe skills for other unit types, right?), they'd probably be pretty ridiculous on the right unit. Not sure who that'd be though.

Also, 24 Might? Seriously?

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Also, isn't triple damage the normal increase for effective weapons?

And now I kinda wish Crossbows were in Fates, mostly to see how they'd be balanced.

Gonna put that on my wishlist, alongside more Dragonstones, a couple more Beaststones, the Restore staff, and the Pirate and Warrior classes (I dunno if those last two would add much, I just miss them).

If I recall correctly (admittedly, just from a Let's Play I read, so I could be wrong), Crossbows can also attack at 1-range, right? So between that and effective damage skills (if I recall correctly, there are other -foe skills for other unit types, right?), they'd probably be pretty ridiculous on the right unit. Not sure who that'd be though.

Also, 24 Might? Seriously?

For the most part, yes.

True. Not that that helped their case (in part because the strongest buyable crossbow was only 28 Mt). . . Also, there were other-foe skills, but they weren't very relevant (Dragonfoe and Birdfoe are only really effective in one chapter each).

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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Yes, crossbows are able to attack from 1 tile away. The other foe skills aren't really helpful, though. Birdfoe is something crossbows don't need because they're already good against non-Wyvern fliers. I guess Dragonfoe can be useful in a couple chapters, but there's more beasts than dragons in the first of those chapters and then by the other, you're toting around infinite-use legendaries/forges.

And yep, 24 Mt as a trade-off for not factoring in Str, which is why, due to the formulae, its power swings so wildly depending on scenario. That's just the Bowgun too. The best crossbow, Arbalest, has 38 Mt.

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Yes, crossbows are able to attack from 1 tile away. The other foe skills aren't really helpful, though. Birdfoe is something crossbows don't need because they're already good against non-Wyvern fliers. I guess Dragonfoe can be useful in a couple chapters, but there's more beasts than dragons in the first of those chapters and then by the other, you're toting around infinite-use legendaries/forges.

And yep, 24 Mt as a trade-off for not factoring in Str, which is why, due to the formulae, its power swings so wildly depending on scenario. That's just the Bowgun too. The best crossbow, Arbalest, has 38 Mt.

Bowgun and the likes use a formula like this if they were do do bonus damage: Triple the weapon might (if it does bonus damage) then subtract it from the enemy's Defense Stat. Normally in RD, the tripling for bonus damage is after the damage is subtracted from the enemy's Defense or Resistance. Bowguns and the different variants of Crossbows triple their Might before subtracting the power from the enemy's Defense Stat if they were to do bonus damage. Due to this unique damage formula, Bowguns and the different Crossbows are considered one of the best anti-Bird/Flyer weapons in the game alongside the Double Bow in RD (which still follows the normal damage formula regardless). Of course, all your Warriors/Reavers and Snipers/Marksman by the time you can use them will have enough Str to not be affected by the Weapon's Weight.

Edited by Emblem Blade
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Er, what? The multiplier for effective weaponry already triples the Mt of the weapon, independent of enemy Def/Res. In fact, I just double-checked the formula page to make sure. So Sothe swinging around a Beast Killer at a Cat will have 9*3 = 27 Mt, regardless of if the Cat has 1 or 40 Def.

I'm saying the crossbows' power in general swings wildly because Str never gets factored into the damage. So while enemy Def gets to grow, the Bowgun just keeps having 24 Attack, which makes it pretty lackluster against units that it isn't effective against. The formula here is still the same, but because of the way crossbows were implemented with pure Mt, its power swings super high when it is effective because that same formula gives it 24*3 = 72 Mt.

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Here's my $0.02 on the new weapon system in Fates. (and yeah, I know some of the stuff I say has already been said)

Yeah, the nerf to javelins and handaxes was welcome. I feel like it's a bit too much though. No crit, no proc skills, can't double, and easier to get doubled? Do we really need that many disadvantages just to attack at range?
Shurikens are way too OP. Why nerf javelins and handaxes, only to create an entire weapon type that can attack at 1-2 range with none of the penalties (shurikens even give +2 speed), and inflicts debuffs on top of that? While they're weak, they're also extremely accurate. I daresay they're even more OP than the former javelins and handaxes... I think it would be a lot better if most daggers were melee only, and the ranged ones suffer the same penalties as other throwing weapons.

While introducing debuffs is nice, I don't like how it's far more beneficial for the enemy than for the player. Enemy units rarely live long enough for debuffs to matter, while player units are expected to not die and therefore have to put up with the debuffs. Same with skills like Poison Strike, which usually come side by side with debuffs. This makes shurikens really powerful (or at the very least, annoying) in the enemy's hands, but not nearly as good in the player's hands, due to their low might.
High-end weapons are, again, more beneficial for the enemies. With infinite durability, every weapon stronger than iron needs to have a drawback so lower end weapons aren't useless. But the drawbacks are usually in the form of sacrificing defense for offense, which enemies don't care about, so it really only serves to de-incentivize players from using them. This includes throwing weapons. Their stats are actually improved, so enemies using them are actually more dangerous than before...

As a result of the new weapon system, I find enemy bow squads annoying to deal with. Magic users have WTA but are squishy. Shurikens have WTD. I guess you can use your own bow users, but I don't think there's any particularly tanky bow user. At least you have the divine swords.
Enemy shuriken squads are even more annoying to deal with. Magic users get wrecked. Your own shuriken users aren't exactly that durable either. Nothing else with 1-2 range can double. Every legendary weapon except Fujin Yumi is at WTD.

---

Now that I think about it, I actually prefer the previous games where weapons have finite durability. I really like the idea of being able to pull out a powerful weapon to bail yourself out of a bad situation or take down a particularly tough enemy, but the drawback is their scarcity, so you can't overuse them. If those games didn't give you so much money, I think the system would have been perfect. (I like resource management.) That system also gives more flexibility in designing weapons. You can have really powerful weapons, as long as they're sufficiently rare/expensive to compensate. With infinite durability, you don't have that flexibility. Like I said before, high-end weapons need to be toned down, and be saddled with disadvantages on top of that. It makes supposedly strong weapons feel... not so strong. And the disadvantages seem... kinda random. Why do killer weapons give less avoid? Why do silver weapons make you weaker? Why do brave weapons give less defense? What's with the S-rank weapons halving your strength every other hit? None of it makes sense and it seems like they focused too much on the mechanics and balance and completely ignored the flavor aspect.

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I think my biggest issue with the system is forging. Random gems aside, the static boosts make the improvements disproportionately good for Bronze and Iron. +2 Mt is a really good deal for the costs again (especially for hidden weapons, where a Bronze +1 doubles its Mt). Conversely, shelling out 2000 and 4000 to improve the other weapons is big rip-off. To even make this remotely worth it in a no-grind run, Steel would have to be maybe 1500 and Silver, 2500. But I think the better change would be to keep the pricing, but tailor the boosts to the grade of weapon. Drop the Mt improvements of Bronze and Iron to +1 per rank, but add a but more +Hit or even +Crit (for Iron). Then Steel could be +2 Mt and a more nominal Hit boost, then Silver is +3 Mt per rank with basically no Hit boosts (encouraging the PP nature of the weapons). Special weapons could either have their own system or run using the current static chart, since forging them at all without grinding Museum is kind of iffy (since the limited quantity means it might just be better to distribute the +0 versions to every unit who wants to use them).

Personally, I'm hard-pressed to consider even that anything other than a rip-off - I'd expect better improvements than a mere 2 Mt for having to crap away 2 grand.

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Few things that came to my mind

1. Niche Weapons

(1) Effective weapons

The x3 multiplier on weapon might already makes them incredibly powerful against those that it's designed to kill, and with weapon durability gone there simply is no reason not to use them. Not to mention that the -4 Atk, -10 Hit loss against non-effective units is hardly a penalty at all. All in all they're a tad too reliable against those it cripples, and desperately calls for some kind of abuse-prevention methods in play. (Bows and Blessed Weapons need no further nerfing, I feel, given how mobile fliers are and the negative defensive properties that follows blessed weapons.) Effective weapons for me are the only question-marks against weapon durability, but if we take their infinite usage as given other nerfs should be in play. These can outright trivialise certain chapters in the game. (Ch. 18, 19 in Conquest, all of Birthright and Revelations after access to Swordcatchers/Pike-Ruin Clubs/Axesplitters, some child paralogues)

I'm thinking that something along the lines of -2 Mt, -5 Hit for per combat (on the weapon itself, not on the unit) entered as a lead unit while equipped, with 1 Mt and 2 Hit recovering each turn: this doesn't discourage players from using other weapons, but effectively decreases actual damage by 6 with repeated usage due to the x3 multiplier, and the weapon-intrinsic hit penalty with each combat makes them more unreliable with repeated abuse. The lead unit condition encourages different strategies using Attack Stance, kind of like the case of Silvers and STR/MAG-halving S-rank weapons.

(2) Killer and Dual weapons

The x4 crit multiplier is just ridiculous, and frankly -10 Avoid isn't enough of a penalty. Dual weapons are powerful given reverse weapons triangle advantage to the extent that they become preferable over normal weapons (Iron/Steel) with WTA given their relatively high might compared to standard weapons, especially with high weapon rank. Their comparatively low Hit becomes moot given reverse-RTA since they double all weapon triangle effects. All this without weapon durability makes them too much of a standout, and while I'm fine with removing durability on these weapons compared to effective weapons, some kind of defensive/avoid nerf should be in play to better balancing these weapons.

I'd reduce the crit multiplier back to x3, as the high crit rates are already enough of a bonus. Perhaps I'd also consider decreasing Dodge as well, making them a bit more situational and a risk vs. reward gamble to rely on, especially in the enemy phase. With Dual Weapons less tinkering is needed though probably: I'd just make their might comparable to standard irons.

(3) Weapons with Defense/Resistance increasing properties

The Guard Naginata with the +5 DEF/RES is one of if not the most ridiculous weapon in Fates, and there's too many of them available in Birthright and Revelations. Either. Similar for the Illusory Yumi: flat +10 RES, what were they thinking? Either lower its availability, nerf its defensive benefits, or further increase its Avoid/Dodge penalties.

2. Staves

- A restore staff would be nice, but I feel that too many of them renders enemy offensive staves completely obsolete. If it has to be implemented, its availability should be very limited, either by having few charges such as the Rescue staff or by giving it in the Lategame like the Silence staff. Personally I think the Rescue staff route is more reasonable, giving 2 sets, each with 2 charges allows a bit of an ease with enemy staves in the Early game, while allowing players to bail out themselves out of some really tricky situation in the late-game if they managed their resources right seems reasonable. (for instance rendering Staff Savant on Conquest Endgame a bit less devastating, while still actively discouraging turtling on that map) 2-4 charges throughout the entirety of Conquest/Revelations seem reasonable.

- The game hands the player a bit too many Freeze staves. Some legitimately-challenging maps can be trivialised by repeatedly spamming Freeze. Either its price should be higher, or its availability should be lower.

- Healing staves recovery increasing with MAG/3 instead of MAG/2 doesn't differentiate the magic stat enough, though given units like Elise and the comparatively lower HP in Fates perhaps it was a change for the better within the context of this game.

3. Debuffs

The fact that in principle, hidden-weapons allow for the following debuffs to occur simultaneously I think is a bit too much

- lowering HP via skills like Poison Strike

- stat debuffs via Seal skills

- stat debuffs via weapon properties

In particular this makes Hidden Weapon wielders too powerful compared to others in terms of balance. (esp. with shuriken also receiving +2 SPD) In addition, some of these weapons like the Caltrop, Spy's Shuriken, Chakram and arguably the Silver Knife/Shuriken have too insane of debuffing properties.

Enemy debuffing your units is in principle a good idea in that it encourages player phase action, but the low recovery speed comparative to the amount of stat debuff rather encourages players to turtle instead and discourages EP action a bit too much. For instance I feel that -6 on a stat with a Seal skill with only +1 recovery per turn does the gameplay more harm then good. I'd say either lower its affect to -4 or -5, or increase recovery speed by +2 per turn would do the job (I prefer the latter). Similar comments go to weapon debuffs and Enfeeble/Dragon Fang, especially Enfeeble since most early game Conquest chapters with Enfeeble Shrine Maidens can be trivialised by simply letting units take the hit and deplete their usage (Ch. 9, 14)

4. Forging

Forging is a bit too favourable towards Iron and Bronze weapons for the reasons already discussed. Given that forging has a lot of potential, though, I think giving +1 Mt to +1 (and maybe +2) forges, then consecutively give +2 Mt for further forging could be more balance while maintaining the benefits of forging while not making other higher-end weapons too irrelevant. Or focusing more on Hit and Crit rates and less on Might could also work.

I'm actually fairly alright with the treatment of higher-rank weapons other than that though, given the presence of reliable Dual Attacks with Tag Team in this game. The game hands out enough Steel weapons for forge which somewhat mitigates their disadvantage compared to forged Iron already, though they could have +1 more Might in average upon reflection. Silvers and stat crippling S-ranks are still relevant without any because +6~+8 Might translates to double that amount given enough speed to double, and yet more damage with Dual Attacks, and that +3 forges or higher are rather difficult to attain under a no-grind context. (For similar reasons I don't think any of the S-rank debuffs are unreasonable: for those that halve STR/MAG, a single dual attack is all it takes to get rid of said debuffs) Also considering the comparatively lower HP in this game on both the player and the enemies, I don't think it makes sense to differentiate Might greatly between weapons, though it makes sense for forges to give less benefit to Might as well accordingly. But spending a lot of funds on a weapon to considerably increase the offensive parameters of a weapon, especially for units that initially fall behind, is a viable strategic decision that helps make more units viable, and I'd not nerf the might increases on bronze/iron by too much, hence the above proposal.

5. UI

In general, the UI of Fates does not keep up with the added complexity; with more intricacy with mechanics should also involve better explanations of those added features. Many of these are related with weapon effects. For instance, effective speed, while a neat notion, is horribly explained for the weapons they apply to. The stat bonuses that come with Katanas/Shuriken/Naginata/Yumi are also rather poorly presented as well, as only in their Iron variants are they given a proper explanation, and it's not clear from that alone that they receive the corresponding stat bonus/penalties while equipped due to them being the particular weapons they are. (Sure they show up on the stat screen when you click on them, but it's not clear to players, especially newcomers, as to why equipping a Steel Katana decreases your DEF and RES)

All this said, I do think Fates did a very good job balancing the different weapons, especially when being very experimental with this new system which could possibly indicate a step forward. I like it when new titles innovate and try something new, and while something like the lack of weapon durability or weapon debuff/bonuses aren't exactly novel to the series, it's something new for the recent FE entries and adds a new element of strategy to these games. I don't feel like the rough edges break the game to any significant extent, though I'd appreciate them being addressed in future titles if some of current changes in Fates were to be re-implemented.

Edited by Aggro Incarnate
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(2) Killer and Dual weapons

The x4 crit multiplier is just ridiculous, and frankly -10 Avoid isn't enough of a penalty. Dual weapons powerful given reverse weapons triangle advantage to the extent that they become preferable over normal weapons with WTA given their relatively high might compared to standard weapons, especially with high weapon rank. Their comparatively low Hit becomes moot given reverse-RTA. All this without weapon durability makes them too much of a standout, and while I'm fine with removing durability on these weapons compared to effective weapons, some kind of defensive/avoid nerf should be in play to better balancing these weapons.

Persona,,y I don't think either of them are all that great - critical hits are innately unreliable, and dual weapons' low accuracy is liable to bite you in the ass against anything other than the weapons they're meant to be used against.

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Did anyone else feel that Brave Weapons were too weak in the campaign? They only have the might of an unforged Iron (and by the time you have Brave weapons, you'll probably have some +2 iron forges) and they only double on the PP. Worse, if you can't kill the enemy in your first two attacks, you're setting yourself up for a painful counterattack because of the defense drops.

Persona,,y I don't think either of them are all that great - critical hits are innately unreliable, and dual weapons' low accuracy is liable to bite you in the ass against anything other than the weapons they're meant to be used against.

You don't use Berserkers. Berserkers can easily reach 80% critical with a Killer Axe and are pretty much guaranteed to OHKO anything they hit. Even for classes without innate crit bonus, a killer weapon can still one round an enemy that you wouldn't be able to otherwise.

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Did anyone else feel that Brave Weapons were too weak in the campaign? They only have the might of an unforged Iron (and by the time you have Brave weapons, you'll probably have some +2 iron forges) and they only double on the PP. Worse, if you can't kill the enemy in your first two attacks, you're setting yourself up for a painful counterattack because of the defense drops.

You don't use Berserkers. Berserkers can easily reach 80% critical with a Killer Axe and are pretty much guaranteed to OHKO anything they hit. Even for classes without innate crit bonus, a killer weapon can still one round an enemy that you wouldn't be able to otherwise.

I'd agree that Braves are pretty underwhelming in the campaign, on account of accuracy woes and the aforementioned defence drops.

Maybe, but unfortunately, the problem with Killer weapons in Fates (and this could apply to other Fire Emblems, too) is that they're innately more useful in enemy hands than they are in player hands because crit is one of those stats that's horribly lopsided in terms of usefulness - if I'm killing in one critical hit from a killer weapon, odds are a critical hit from a stronger weapon would render that enemy just as dead, so that is no help to me whatsoever. Being on the receiving end of a critical hit, on the other hand, can potentially be game-ending. That is also why I avoid Berserkers like the plague - I don't think their critical boost even comes close to making up for being more likely to eat a critical hit.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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The thing is though, there's already not a lot of reason not to use a killer weapon over Iron or Steel, the standard faire of weapons, considering the very small might difference, its low hit/avoid drawback and the relatively high crit percentages. Giving x4 crit multiplier on top of that seems overkill. Considering how the complexity of the weapon system in Fates is to encourage situational usage of different weapons, I feel like too much would be on the killer weapon's favour, especially given the already Player Phase heavy character of Conquest (where killer weapons feature) since Avoid matters significantly less in PP, and Hit can be mitigated by skills like Heartseeker or having more adjacent units.

Dual Weapons would be perfectly fine if not for the fact that they reverse and DOUBLE weapon triangle effects. That on top of relatively high might makes it seem better than normal WTA weapons which was my concern. Hence the conclusion I gave was to simply nerf its might slightly to Iron/Steel level. Though I will say that upon some reconsideration perhaps Dual Weapons may not be so much of a problem when said benefits are that of doing more damage within a single player phase, especially in higher difficulties in Conquest where leaving the enemies in-range that can attack alive in the EP is very unreliable, and one often doesn't have the luxury to choose between which units to kill enemies with.

The philosophy behind Fates is that no weapon replaces another, but rather adds more flexibility in what actions each unit may perform, and my thoughts are very much in line with said underlying principle. I could see how one might want better returns given more investment they put on these weapons (esp. in Conquest with limited funds), but benefits like higher might, double-attacks and high-crit rates are a lot better compared to previous games due to lower HP and potentially higher damage output given Pair-Up bonuses and reliable Attack Stance present in this game, and hence I find the steep pricing even with some of the added drawbacks to higher-ranked weapons still makes sense for this game.

Spoken like someone who probably didn't read my last post on Killer weapons and how they do more good on the enemy than the player. A killer weapon has the Mt of an unforged Iron. By the time they become available, I can buy steels infinitely, and steels have 3-4 more Mt than Killers - a power gap like that can easily mean the difference between a dead enemy and one that lives to get healed or worse, critically injure or even kill one of your own guys. I'd rather take the guaranteed extra damage.

And as I said before, dual weapons tend to languish in the lower end of the accuracy range for their respective weapon types - especially the Dual Club, Dual Yumi and Dual Naginata. Because of that, they're generally not the type of weapon I'd want to be equipped with come Enemy Phase. Now, while I could trade another weapon to the top of the list, sometimes, that is not an option for other reasons.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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Killer weapons are great if the damage difference between the killer weapon and another choice doesn't matter, that's always been the case in FE.

The one thing I think could be a major improvement would be to, if at all possible, move silver weapon debuffs from the character to the weapon itself. That would preserve their purpose of having to be used only for important kills without decentivising their use in the middle of a chapter.

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Killer weapons are great if the damage difference between the killer weapon and another choice doesn't matter, that's always been the case in FE.

The one thing I think could be a major improvement would be to, if at all possible, move silver weapon debuffs from the character to the weapon itself. That would preserve their purpose of having to be used only for important kills without decentivising their use in the middle of a chapter.

Perhaps, but ya ask me, Fates is right there with Radiant Dawn for being one of the games that were most unkind to killer weapons (albeit for different reasons as RD was).

I suppose I could back that idea for silver weapons.

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Spoken like someone who probably didn't read my last post on Killer weapons and how they do more good on the enemy than the player. A killer weapon has the Mt of an unforged Iron. By the time they become available, I can buy steels infinitely, and steels have 3-4 more Mt than Killers - a power gap like that can easily mean the difference between a dead enemy and one that lives to get healed or worse, critically injure or even kill one of your own guys. I'd rather take the guaranteed extra damage.

And as I said before, dual weapons tend to languish in the lower end of the accuracy range for their respective weapon types - especially the Dual Club, Dual Yumi and Dual Naginata. Because of that, they're generally not the type of weapon I'd want to be equipped with come Enemy Phase. Now, while I could trade another weapon to the top of the list, sometimes, that is not an option for other reasons.

Yes, weapons that boost criticals are skewed towards the enemy in principle. This would be a good defense for the killer weapon properties in this game if there were considerable number of enemies that actually wields them, but this is not the case for most of the main game. The more threatening units due to critical hits are instead enemy Snipers, Berserkers and Ragnarok Sorcerers, but these almost never wield the x4 crit-multiplier weapons. While these cases may lend support to how critical rates are more dangerous in the hands of the enemy compared to the ally, it doesn't really add to the case for why killer weapons in particular have the benefits they do; given that there are simply are very few enemy units with killer weapons / x4 crit multiplier weapons in Fates overall, and so they shouldn't be a big part of why killer weapons were given such a boost.

Perhaps the issue with the killer weapon becomes more clear if I put it this way: what is it about killer weapons that was possibly lacking that deserve a boost in this game over previous ones? What is exactly this system rewarding? I don't see a rationale for why killer weapons deserve the x4 multiplier, given that there are already more assets to do damage compared to previous games: reliable dual strikes, lower overall HP (both absolutely and relative to STR/MAG stats) compared to previous titles? Given how all weapons are more expensive, I don't think they got the short end of the stick in terms of pricing either compared to other weapons. In terms of how they compare to others in battle utility, Steel weapons lowers the ability to double which is a legitimate drawback against the added might, and compared to standard Iron there is 0-1 might difference and hit difference of measly 5, and an avoid penalty of 10 which seems disproportionate compared to +20-30% crit rates and the x4 multiplier (perhaps not reliable in their criticalling-properties for some, but nevertheless quite frequent enough to warrant using them quite frequently over others). And encouraging players to use killer weapons 'frequently' doesn't seem like the right way to balance killer weapons at all, with durability not present in this game. All I see is that the boosts killer weapons get seem like it's further rewarding luck-based strategies, and overwhelmingly benefit certain unit/classes that allow for higher-critical rates, and I'm not sure how much this is a positive strategic addition to the game.

Edited by Aggro Incarnate
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It's a good first step, but there's some serious tweaking that needs to be done.

I think the 1-2 range magical weapons did it right - no procs, but can still double. Javelins/Hand Axes/Kodachi are decent, but they hurt both sides a bit too much. Would probably let them crit, but not double/trigger skills.

Hidden weapons are way OP, given that they're consistent 1-2 range, can double, can crit, debuff on hit, and can proc offensive skills.

The Hoshidan weapons in general are pretty good - about the only stat boost I'm eh on are katana and clubs. Naginatas offer bulk, shuriken offer speed, yumi offer res, and tomes offer a little bit of everything. I'd up the MT/Hit on the Nohr counterparts a bit more, to compensate for the free stats.

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Yes, weapons that boost criticals are skewed towards the enemy in principle. This would be a good defense for the killer weapon properties in this game if there were considerable number of enemies that actually wields them, but this is not the case for most of the main game. The more threatening units due to critical hits are instead enemy Snipers, Berserkers and Ragnarok Sorcerers, but these almost never wield the x4 crit-multiplier weapons. While these cases may lend support to how critical rates are more dangerous in the hands of the enemy compared to the ally, it doesn't really add to the case for why killer weapons in particular have the benefits they do; given that there are simply are very few enemy units with killer weapons / x4 crit multiplier weapons in Fates overall, and so they shouldn't be a big part of why killer weapons were given such a boost.

Perhaps the issue with the killer weapon becomes more clear if I put it this way: what is it about killer weapons that was possibly lacking that deserve a boost in this game over previous ones? What is exactly this system rewarding? I don't see a rationale for why killer weapons deserve the x4 multiplier, given that there are already more assets to do damage compared to previous games: reliable dual strikes, lower overall HP (both absolutely and relative to STR/MAG stats) compared to previous titles? Given how all weapons are more expensive, I don't think they got the short end of the stick in terms of pricing either compared to other weapons. In terms of how they compare to others in battle utility, Steel weapons lowers the ability to double which is a legitimate drawback against the added might, and compared to standard Iron there is 0-1 might difference and hit difference of measly 5, and an avoid penalty of 10 which seems disproportionate compared to +20-30% crit rates and the x4 multiplier (perhaps not reliable in their criticalling-properties for some, but nevertheless quite frequent enough to warrant using them quite frequently over others). And encouraging players to use killer weapons 'frequently' doesn't seem like the right way to balance killer weapons at all, with durability not present in this game. All I see is that the boosts killer weapons get seem like it's further rewarding luck-based strategies, and overwhelmingly benefit certain unit/classes that allow for higher-critical rates, and I'm not sure how much this is a positive strategic addition to the game.

Well, that's true that steels lower your ability to double, and that's a drawback worth considering. At the same time, I consider killers' weakness to be a drawback worth considering against them - if I'm not doing much damage to begin with, I'm still not going to do much damage even if I get a critical hit. Also, personally, 20-30% chances for a critical aren't enough for me to say that killer weapons should be used "frequently".

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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I've found myself quite pleased by the new weapon system. Having played Gaiden, removed weapon durability is nothing new. I don't necessarily prefer it over having the traditional FE breakable weapons, but it's just as enjoyable all the same. I like that they added tomes, bows, and hidden weapons to the triangle as otherwise their avoid/hit rate ends up unaffected (as seen in Kaden's overall consistent ability to avoid all sorts of attacks from his use of beaststones, unless fucked by Fates' unpredictable RNG).

I do however, miss the magic triangle. Also wish they brought back dark magic's ability to trump anima, and light magic's effectiveness over dark. Which of course would mean resurrecting a priest's ability to wield light tomes, which could again be effective against faceless.

The addition of staves and hidden weapons which add debuffs I adore. I find it adds tremendous possibilities to my strategies, as well as forces me to act cautiously against those god-forsaken ninja in higher difficulties of Conquest. As long as your unit choice isn't shit, the debuffs won't destroy your team - assuming you're using an adequate amount of units. Nothing that can't be accounted for.

Stat drops on silver weapons... also a good decision. I see why some consider it too much, however there are plenty of alternative weapons available through random finds, rewards, and of course through forging. It makes the amount of units who can go solo much more limited, as weaker units can't simply be handed a silver weapon/magic equivalent to fix their pathetic strength/magic stat.

The decision to nerf javelins and hand-axes was a much needed one. In the hands of a competent unit, they can prove game breaking. Yes, I'm looking at you Awakening.

Raijinto and Siegfried are overpowered. If either A) their weapon MT was lowered or B) the 1-2 range was reduced to 1, they wouldn't be nearly as OP. Omega Yato has one of the highest unforged MTs in the game, yet having limited range prevents it from turning Corrin into a mass destroyer comparable to Robin. I say this, but I don't actually want their range to be limited. Could settle for lower MT though.

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The weakness of killer weapon is they costed the same as +2 Iron weapons. This basically caused Iron weapon to become your better option 9 times out of 10.

I think the only part where i actually like that Killer Offense was against CH.26 Wary General. For the rest of the game, i used broken Horse spirit, Calamity Gate, and Forged Irons

That said Forging system in this game is weird since its both flawed due to requiring dupes and rng centric gems system, and balanced because they did not allow you to freely forge Hammer and Armorslayer, and we all know how broken forged Hammer are

On the same time, lets be honest GEMS PRACTICALLY DOES NOTHING. They already limited your forging power through Smithy level, and the reasonable amount of forges are limited by your Gold intake(it literally costs 128k Gold for a fully forged Iron). A reasonable +2 forge only take 4 gems, which is 20 trade ins, or 2 pickup on a decently levelled resource.

All gems does is to be a nuinsance for players who want to forge +7 OP weapons, but even that is already limited by Brave Weapon being limited in supply without Museum Mellee.

Oh yeah infinite durability DO make it feels worth it when you get that legendary weapon. Getting Horse Spirit is probably one of the most amazing moment in the game

Edited by JSND
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Killer weapons aren't the only crit weapons that exist. The Great Club does not have a ton of difficulty getting a Berserker to 100% Crit, and hit penalties can be circumvented (go try out Gazak the Certain Blow Berserker and enjoy your 100%/100%). Crits in general are just stupid in both directions -- for you they're massive overkill where you do 200 damage to an enemy that has no more than 60 HP, for the enemy they're just "x% chance to kill one of your characters" -- and weapons that make them even stronger just make them dumber.

In general, I get the impression that the weapon changes in Fates were not made with the player in mind, which rubs me the wrong way. They clearly made Hidden Weapons as they are for Conquest so they could set up the insane Poison Strike / Grisly Wound Lunging Ninja crap; that some of your units can make good use of them is a nice bonus, but absent Dread Fighter they do restrict pretty hard which of your units can utilize them. Steel in enemy hands is a lot more palatable when the designers can hand Darting Blow to classes that don't normally have it, and someone already mentioned that Silver's stacking penalties are irrelevant since enemies aren't expected to live long enough to accumulate significant ones. Littering some maps with Killer Axe or Club-equipped Berserkers is basically their "don't EP this guy" standard. They let the enemy blatantly cheat with staves on some difficulties. And debuffs in general, as has been noted, are crippling to your characters (who are expected to survive) and only occasionally important to secure kills on enemies... at which point the debuff doesn't matter because the enemy is gone. It just feels like a mechanic that exists to screw you, which is kind of confirmed when Lunatic Conquest enemies get to infinistack the debuffs and just flat-out break the rules because challenge.

I don't mind them mixing up the skillsets and stuff, but some of the weapon changes feel like they're not there to make my life easier or my ability to weigh my options for weapons more interesting and fun. Taking away durability and making every weapon interesting is a great idea, but the implementation raises my suspicions as to their real motives for doing it the way they did.

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