Who are Sakura and Takumi's parents? (spoilers)

[maninbluejumpsuit]

Alright. OP got me confused for a second there with that claim

[Lightchao42]

I guess that makes sense if Sumeragi didn't marry Mikoto right away after she came to Hoshido. But it is a bit sad that if Ikona was alive at the time, it essentially means Sumeragi is cheating on his wife, even if by all accounts he's an honourable man. You can't help who you fall in love with I guess (like the Hoshidan siblings besides Ryoma, who fell in love with Corrin before finding out they're not related >_< )

I just find it weird that if you played Birthright and only got the S support with Takumi or Sakura without getting the supports with Ryoma, Hinoka or Kagero you'd never know about Mikoto not being their mom (and thus, feel like you'd still be marrying your half-sibling lol)

Even if he did cheat on Ikona with Mikoto (though there's no indication that he acted on his feelings for her before Ikona's death), Sumeragi still has nothing on Garon. I'm actually more curious as to why Garon decided to choose Arete as his second wife despite probably having a dozen concubines at the time. It's not like their marriage stopped him from having more children with other women, since Leo and Elise (among others, probably) were born after Azura was integrated into Nohr. Maybe he just has a thing for singers? Though my theory is that Arete didn't really mind his promiscuity because she mainly married him in hopes that her ties to Garon would protect her and Azura from Anankos, which obviously didn't work out.

On a non-blue haired singer related note, this thread made me realize that I like complicated plots. It's more interesting and fun to put the threads together. No wonder I like Kingdom Hearts and BlazBlue.

[MapleRose]

Alright. OP got me confused for a second there with that claim

Oops, that was my mistake, I forgot about Sakura and Corrin's A; I just assumed she was born after the kidnapping because Elise was, and I thought they were the same age..

Even if he did cheat on Ikona with Mikoto (though there's no indication that he acted on his feelings for her before Ikona's death), Sumeragi still has nothing on Garon. I'm actually more curious as to why Garon decided to choose Arete as his second wife despite probably having a dozen concubines at the time. It's not like their marriage stopped him from having more children with other women, since Leo and Elise (among others, probably) were born after Azura was integrated into Nohr. Maybe he just has a thing for singers? Though my theory is that Arete didn't really mind his promiscuity because she mainly married him in hopes that her ties to Garon would protect her and Azura from Anankos, which obviously didn't work out.

On a non-blue haired singer related note, this thread made me realize that I like complicated plots. It's more interesting and fun to put the threads together. No wonder I like Kingdom Hearts and BlazBlue.

When Garon married Arete, was that before or after he became Ananko's pawn? If it was after, then maybe Anankos was keeping an eye on Arete through Garon? Or she's just really pretty or something.

I thought about it some more, and we don't actually know if Polygamy is disallowed / frowned upon in Hoshido, so it could be that it's perfectly normal that Sumeragi took Mikoto as a second wife while Ikona is still married (and after Ikona died Mikoto took the role as Queen)? Though Ryoma can't S with more than one female, but maybe that's just his choice?

I'm curious now why Mikoto is still the Queen. Shouldn't Ryoma have become King when he came of age?

[Lightchao42]

When Garon married Arete, was that before or after he became Ananko's pawn? If it was after, then maybe Anankos was keeping an eye on Arete through Garon? Or she's just really pretty or something.

I thought about it some more, and we don't actually know if Polygamy is disallowed / frowned upon in Hoshido, so it could be that it's perfectly normal that Sumeragi took Mikoto as a second wife while Ikona is still married (and after Ikona died Mikoto took the role as Queen)? Though Ryoma can't S with more than one female, but maybe that's just his choice?

Leo mentions in his support with Elise that Garon "changed" after Arete's death. We don't know the circumstances behind Arete's death other than the fact that it was to "protect Nohr" (according to Azura) and she activated the "don't talk about Valla" curse, so it is possible that Garon's corruption/possession did have something to do with it.

If I recall correctly, polygamy (or concubinage, whichever's relevant) wasn't uncommon in feudal Japan. We don't know if Mikoto was "officially" a concubine, though, and all the royals we see only ever have one spouse (as Sumeragi and Garon only remarried after the deaths of their respective first wives). Since everyone except Ryoma thought that Corrin was Sumeragi's biological child, including Corrin's siblings, it is likely that Mikoto being Sumeragi's "other woman" was the common opinion even if it might not be true. No one seems to think much of it though, so it probably isn't too uncommon. And all the Hoshidans had to do was look over at Nohr and think, "Hey, at least our king didn't have children with at least eight different women." We don't actually know the exact number of children Garon had, but it is probably a similarly large number.

[Res]

I expect Arete and Mikoto being sisters, and Garon and Sumeragi originally being friends, had to do with their marrying one another. Perhaps Garon married Arete for strategic reasons - hoping to get his hands on Valla land? Or perhaps he had more altruistic reasons, like attempting to save Valla?

And the royal siblings are probably only able to marry one person simply because that makes it more palatable for the players.

[NekoKnight]

Ugh, don't give them any ideas.

"I'm actually not your mother even though I've cared for you as one for 19 years...I'm actually...an 18-year-old supermodel!"

"Can I still call you mum?"

"Oh, I insist you do ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)"

"( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) "

And then a message pops up saying "technically not incest!"

They resurrected Mikoto so you could reach S Support with her.

Stop, both of you! IS would do it!

I thought about it some more, and we don't actually know if Polygamy is disallowed / frowned upon in Hoshido, so it could be that it's perfectly normal that Sumeragi took Mikoto as a second wife while Ikona is still married (and after Ikona died Mikoto took the role as Queen)? Though Ryoma can't S with more than one female, but maybe that's just his choice?

I'm curious now why Mikoto is still the Queen. Shouldn't Ryoma have become King when he came of age?

Polygamy seems like a possible (moral) explanation for why Sumeragi was seeing two women at once and it would fit in a pseudo-feudal-Japan. Still, considering how polygamy is generally frowned upon in the modern day (and that I don't recall any positive depictions of polygamy in Fire Emblem), you'd think they'd tell the player if that was their intended story.

Verdict: They didn't think about it very hard.

As for why Mikoto is still Queen (and Ryoma isn't King after her death), the Watsonian answer could be that Ryoma felt she would be a better ruler so he ceded his rightful position. The Doylist answer is probably that they wanted the Nohrian sibling parallels to remain intact and they couldn't have Ryoma be a king if Marx was still a prince.

[RedEyedDrake]

I think that the more sensible Watsonian answer would be that Mikoto has remained a queen for so long because any Hoshidans who could have opposed the notion and who didn't know her personally were too afraid (of her, her supporters and/or of Nohr) to demand otherwise of her after the certainty of the continuation of the entire kingdom's prosperity became bound to her own life.

Edited May 14, 2016 by RedEyedDrake

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

I think if they do implemented the marrying parents thingy, Takumi would be the first one who marry Mikoto. Like seriously, the rest basically acted like nothing happened when Mikoto is killed. Its like Takumi's the only one who is blood related to her or something

Also yeah Garon started to become mad after Arete's death. This just shows you that the real villain of the game is Garon's concubines

[My Blue Sky]

If I recall correctly, polygamy (or concubinage, whichever's relevant) wasn't uncommon in feudal Japan. We don't know if Mikoto was "officially" a concubine, though, and all the royals we see only ever have one spouse (as Sumeragi and Garon only remarried after the deaths of their respective first wives). Since everyone except Ryoma thought that Corrin was Sumeragi's biological child, including Corrin's siblings, it is likely that Mikoto being Sumeragi's "other woman" was the common opinion even if it might not be true. No one seems to think much of it though, so it probably isn't too uncommon. And all the Hoshidans had to do was look over at Nohr and think, "Hey, at least our king didn't have children with at least eight different women." We don't actually know the exact number of children Garon had, but it is probably a similarly large number.

You mean they managed to brew something like this? It would at least make some sense...

Edited May 14, 2016 by My Blue Sky

[ChaosGallade]

I expect Arete and Mikoto being sisters, and Garon and Sumeragi originally being friends, had to do with their marrying one another. Perhaps Garon married Arete for strategic reasons - hoping to get his hands on Valla land? Or perhaps he had more altruistic reasons, like attempting to save Valla?

And the royal siblings are probably only able to marry one person simply because that makes it more palatable for the players.

It's already been confirmed that Arete and Mikoto are sisters.

[Renall]

I mean, it's kind of complicated, but it's not that complicated.

1. Sumeragi + Ikona = Ryoma.
2. Sumeragi + Ikona = Hinoka.
3. Dragon Dad + Mikoto = Corrin.
4. Sumeragi + Ikona = Takumi.
5. Sumeragi + Ikona = Sakura.
6. Ikona dies.
7. Mikoto marries Sumeragi.

I don't think you need any explanation of two-timing or the like beyond that, really. Corrin was born completely unrelated to the Hoshidan royals' own childbearing, except that chronologically it happened between the time Hinoka was born and the time Takumi was born. As long as there's a period of between 2-4 years between Corrin's birth and Sumeragi marrying Mikoto, there's time enough for Takumi and Sakura to have already been born.

As far as the Azura thing goes, I'm pretty sure Azura is older than Corrin by more than is readily apparent from her appearance. Not by a ton, mind you, but she's almost certainly older. She would have had greater awareness of events going on at the time she was kidnapped. As far as the Elise thing, I think Elise is younger than Sakura by some meaningful length of time, like a year or two maybe. Sakura is young, but Elise is very clearly even more juvenile. The respective siblings don't all have to be the exact same age, they're just within the same basic categories. Camilla and Hinoka are both older than Corrin, but I get the sense Camilla is older than Hinoka by a bit as well. So it would make sense if Sakura were say 12 and Elise was 10, because that would give enough of a window for Arete to have come to Nohr with Azura, for Arete to have died, and for Azura to have been kidnapped, all roughly before Elise was born and without messing up the Hoshidan chronology.

It's not a very well-organized backstory by any means, but I don't think it has any major holes that are directly contradicted by stated facts. It's just an extremely tight and busy 5-10 years in there, with Arete and Mikoto showing up and winning over their respective kings, Arete and Ikona and Sumeragi dying, and Corrin and Azura getting kidnapped. No wonder Hinoka was so ticked off by everything, her mom dies and she gets a new stepmom and stepsibling and then her dad dies and her stepsibling gets kidnapped in what must've been the span of a couple years at most.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Renall

[Res]

While I agree that it works out chronologically, there are still these facts to take into account:

- Sumeragi fell in love with Mikoto before Corrin was born (granted, he may not have acted upon these feelings).

- Mikoto came to Hoshido while Corrin was still an infant/young enough to be considered a baby.

- Hinoka, Takumi and Sakura (and apparently many other Hoshidans) all believe their father to be Corrin's biological father, so they at least believed their father had cheated on their birth mother, and Ryoma, Sumeragi and Mikoto let them all believe this.

If Mikoto and Sumeragi didn't marry/weren't together in some fashion until Corrin was 2-4 years old, it's a little odd as to why they'd pretend Corrin was Sumeragi's biological child. It wouldn't have been unnatural for the king to take a second wife after his first wife died.

[MapleRose]

You mean they managed to brew something like this? It would at least make some sense...

Woah, thanks for the link!

I think it makes the most sense if Hoshido just allowed for concubines, if the timeline makes is so that Mikoto was in Hoshido while Ikona was alive. So when Mikoto and Corrin came to Hoshido, Sumeragi just make her into a concubine. When Ikona died, she was "promoted" to queen. That's why everyone respects Mikoto, after some initial bumps. Nobody seems to look down on Corrin because they believe he/she is Sumeragi's child, which is why I guess only Ryoma knew, and he didn't tell anyone.

Oh yeah, I forgot that Arete died because of the curse, "to protect Nohr". I wish there was more backstory on how that went down (or is there, and I just forgot/missed it?). Was Garon's corruption directly related to Arete dying?

[The Archsage]

Personally, I think Mikoto was lying about not being at least Sakura's mother. Maybe Takumi's too, but it's possible that Takumi was born to Ikona, based on what we know.

My reasoning?

Let's start with things we know.

We know that Hinoka was 7 years old when Corrin was stolen away. We also know she was older then him. So, we also know that Corrin was at least 6 when he was kidnapped. We also know that Elise was born shortly after Corrin arrived in Nohr, and we also know that Sakura and Elise are at least close in age. We also know that Mikoto arrived with a newborn baby Corrin. We also know that Takumi, Leo, Sakura, and Elise are all younger then Corrin.

Now, this next portion is guesswork, but it's solid guesswork, so I believe it to be true.

Since we know that Corrin is younger then Hinoka, and that, of the Hoshido siblings only Ryoma knew that Corrin was unrelated to them, Hinoka must have been young enough to not remember when her mother Ikona died. So, we know that Ikona died when Hinoka was younger then 3, because it's around that age when children start forming their first memorable memories, and a traumatic experience like having your mother die, would likely stick out, so she was probably about 2 when it happened. Since Hinoka had to be at least 1 when Mikoto and Corrin arrived, that leaves Ikona a window of a single year to have two children. It's possible that Takumi was born in this time frame, but it's impossible for Sakura to have been squeezed in as well.

My conclusion? Sakura is likely Corrin's half sister, but Mikoto lied, sending her a letter to tell her otherwise, because she foresaw their romance (and how without this letter it would never go any further then bottled up feelings), and decided she didn't want to take away what little happiness might come to them, after already seeing their mother die.

Because we don't know how much younger Takumi is then Corrin, he can either be just old enough to be Ikona's son, and just a year younger then Corrin, or he can be Corrin's half brother, and thus more then a year younger then Corrin.

Of course, this assumes that Corrin is only a year younger then Hinoka. If he's more then a year younger, then Takumi is guaranteed to be Corrin's half-sibling, alongside Sakura. But, I doubt Corrin is anymore then 2 years younger then Hinoka, because, again, she would likely remember Mikoto suddenly arriving with a newborn baby in her arms, if she was 3 or older.

Naturally however, because this is all guesswork, no matter how solid it is, the truth is whatever IS says it is. No matter how little sense their truth makes. Of course despite how solid my guesswork is, it is also all only my opinion.

As for why Ryoma wouldn't speak up about the truth, it's possible that Mikoto asked him not to. He seems to respect her and her decisions enough to hold his tongue on such a matter. Either that, or, maybe it was because they were fighting a war, and by the time the war is over, he can't see any reason to break them apart, especially when they had Kana already. Or, perhaps because they're only half-siblings, it's just not that big a deal to him.

Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. Either way, it makes sense to me, and if it is wrong, it's still my headcanon.

[saisymbolic]

We could also pretend Takumi and Sakura are fraternal twins and that Sakura is a bit older than we think she is.

I'm just trying to help.

[RedEyedDrake]

@Archsage:

Despite your argument, the very premise of it would mean that the text in the tablets is a lie. In this particular case, that is impossible. Why? Because the text points out Corrin's true parentage even when he/she himself/herself doesn't know the full story. Also, what makes you think that Hinoka doesn't remember Ikona? Hinoka, Takumi and Sakura are well aware that they and Corrin have different mothers anyway. They all think (or act as such at least) that Corrin is their half-sibling, not a full one, because they know that isn't true.

Also, I'd say that whether Ryoma "actually" knew anything or not and whether Mikoto's letter "actually" exists or not is questionable. This information only comes up in S ranks of support conversations. And every character with an S ranked support can only ever be involved in one such support per playthrough. Meaning that if character A were to S rank character B instead of character C the information in the S rank support conversation between characters A and C becomes inaccessable for the remainder of that playthrough, meaning that it doesn't exist for said playthrough. As such, I'd say that no piece of information that is only brought up in S rank conversations can be considered "universally" true and thus can not serve as an explanation, justification, ect. for anything, meaning it should not be treated as fact.

Edited May 14, 2016 by RedEyedDrake

[Lann La Mirah]

In one of Hinoka's and Corrin's supports, Hinoka remembers rejecting Mikoto as a mom, which makes me think that she remembers Ikona. At least a bit.

I thought it was kind of weird that the game expects you to know that Mikoto isn't the Hoshidan siblings' mom--they all call her "Mother" and act as if she's their mom. Then in the supports, they act like you knew that Mikoto wasn't their mom all along.

[RedEyedDrake]

Doesn't one of the supports explicitly use the term 'half-siblings' when talking about the Hoshidan siblings and Corrin?

Edited May 14, 2016 by RedEyedDrake

[Lightchao42]

Again, everyone probably assumed that Sumeragi had an affair with Mikoto that produced Corrin between Hinoka and Takumi's births, while Sumeragi was still married to Ikona. None of the knowledgeable parties rejected this belief, probably so Corrin and Mikoto would be more easily accepted by Hoshido's population, and because Corrin's actual father didn't want anyone to know about him.

Also, I'd say that whether Ryoma "actually" knew anything or not and whether Mikoto's letter "actually" exists or not is questionable. This information only comes up in S ranks of support conversations. And every character with an S ranked support can only ever be involved in one such support per playthrough. Meaning that if character A were to S rank character B instead of character C the information in the S rank support conversation between characters A and C becomes inaccessable for the remainder of that playthrough, meaning that it doesn't exist for said playthrough. As such, I'd say that no piece of information that is only brought up in S rank conversations can be considered "universally" true and thus can not serve as an explanation, justification, ect. for anything, meaning it should not be treated as fact.

Mikoto's letter only exists because Mikoto foretold that Corrin and Hinoka/Takumi/Sakura would eventually develop unsibling-like feelings for eachother (it's suggesting that Mikoto, being a Vallite royal, inherited said ability from Anankos). It seems strange, then, that Sumeragi would somehow predict that Ryoma would eventually fall in love with his younger sister and tell him that they weren't related, but only in that one particular reality where Ryoma would eventually fall in love with his younger sister.

Doesn't one of the supports explicitly use the term 'half-siblings' when talking about the Hoshidan siblings and Corrin?

From Corrin and Sakura's S support:

Sakura: I know what you're going to say. That we're half-siblings. But...what if we weren't?

[RedEyedDrake]

@Light:

That is my point. Those conversations might become completely inaccessible in any given playthrough and thus any piece of information (about anything) that is only presented in them and nowhere else can't be considered to be fact in regards to the overall world as said world is presented by the combination of everything other than S rank support conversations.

Thus, since the relevant conversation is the only source of any given version of a letter of such nature existing and is only referenced in S ranked support conversations, they can not be said to exist in any version of the setting where the appropriate conversation did not take place. Meaning that there is neither evidence nor implication of the letter's existence in such versions of the setting. Meaning there is no reason to assume that the letter exists in those versions at all.

On top of that, Ryoma's words can't be used as evidence to prove that he was aware of the Hoshidan siblings having no blood relation to Corrin by the same principle. Granted, implications of such knowledge on his part do exist elsewhere (but in this case said implications are not sufficiently decisive to ascertain him having such knowledge anyway, not to my knowledge of said implications anyway) but the S rank conversation in question can't be used to prove that.

Edited May 16, 2016 by RedEyedDrake

[MapleRose]

Also, I'd say that whether Ryoma "actually" knew anything or not and whether Mikoto's letter "actually" exists or not is questionable. This information only comes up in S ranks of support conversations. And every character with an S ranked support can only ever be involved in one such support per playthrough. Meaning that if character A were to S rank character B instead of character C the information in the S rank support conversation between characters A and C becomes inaccessable for the remainder of that playthrough, meaning that it doesn't exist for said playthrough. As such, I'd say that no piece of information that is only brought up in S rank conversations can be considered "universally" true and thus can not serve as an explanation, justification, ect. for anything, meaning it should not be treated as fact.

I agree that in a universe where Corrin doesn't marry Hinoka/Takumi/Sakura, the letter would not exist, because Mikoto would not foresee that they would fall in love with Corrin, therefore no need for the letter. So in that universe, Hinoka, Takumi, Sakura, and Corrin all don't know that Sumeragi isn't Corrin's real dad.

However, I feel like Ryoma's case is different, because Sumeragi told him not because he's worried Ryoma might one day fall in love with Corrin, since he didn't have powers of foresight. I feel like Sumeragi would have told Ryoma the truth regardless, because Ryoma is his heir, and Sumeragi didn't want the truth to die with him or something. It's only in the universe where Ryoma does fall in love with Corrin that he tells her about it. Otherwise he wouldn't have said anything and Corrin wouldn't know (probably because Sumeragi or Mikoto told him not to tell anyone, as the first thing Ryoma says before revealing the truth is apologize to them).

[RedEyedDrake]

But without the conversation taking place there is neither implication nor evidence to suggest that those events ever happened. So even if he might have, without the conversation there is zero reason to believe that he did. It isn't an unreasonable assumption to make but, even if one chooses to interpret that implication that I previously mentioned as something that proves that Ryoma did know, there is no reason to assume that he didn't figure it out on his own. And the truth wouldn't have died with Sumeragi anyway. Mikoto was alive and well at that point.

[mikethepokemaster]

But without the conversation taking place there is neither implication nor evidence to suggest that those events ever happened. So even if he might have, without the conversation there is zero reason to believe that he did. It isn't an unreasonable assumption to make but, even if one chooses to interpret that implication that I previously mentioned as something that proves that Ryoma did know, there is no reason to assume that he didn't figure it out on his own. And the truth wouldn't have died with Sumeragi anyway. Mikoto was alive and well at that point.

Uh maybe you should stop putting so much thought into it I mean IS really didn't over thinking.

[RedEyedDrake]

On the contrary. I personally think it is quite interesting to see what the end result of all the puzzle pieces being put together ends up looking like, especially when the developer didn't really think things through when designing the puzzle in question.

[The Archsage]

@Archsage:

Despite your argument, the very premise of it would mean that the text in the tablets is a lie. In this particular case, that is impossible. Why? Because the text points out Corrin's true parentage even when he/she himself/herself doesn't know the full story. Also, what makes you think that Hinoka doesn't remember Ikona? Hinoka, Takumi and Sakura are well aware that they and Corrin have different mothers anyway. They all think (or act as such at least) that Corrin is their half-sibling, not a full one, because they know that isn't true.

Also, I'd say that whether Ryoma "actually" knew anything or not and whether Mikoto's letter "actually" exists or not is questionable. This information only comes up in S ranks of support conversations. And every character with an S ranked support can only ever be involved in one such support per playthrough. Meaning that if character A were to S rank character B instead of character C the information in the S rank support conversation between characters A and C becomes inaccessable for the remainder of that playthrough, meaning that it doesn't exist for said playthrough. As such, I'd say that no piece of information that is only brought up in S rank conversations can be considered "universally" true and thus can not serve as an explanation, justification, ect. for anything, meaning it should not be treated as fact.

Fair enough. I could have probably done with thinking the entire things out just a bit more.

My assumption that Hinoka didn't remember Ikona was based on the fact that she clearly believes the Avatar to be her half-sibling, until that letter from Mikto. If she was old enough remember her own mother, she should have been old enough to realize that Corrin being there at the same time would mean he couldn't be her half-sibling. Unless she thought so poorly of her father that she believed he'd cheat on Ikona with Mikoto. Which would probably explain

In one of Hinoka's and Corrin's supports, Hinoka remembers rejecting Mikoto as a mom, which makes me think that she remembers Ikona. At least a bit.

I thought it was kind of weird that the game expects you to know that Mikoto isn't the Hoshidan siblings' mom--they all call her "Mother" and act as if she's their mom. Then in the supports, they act like you knew that Mikoto wasn't their mom all along.

the bolded text there.

So, yea, a bit more research and thought probably would have saved me some embarrassment here.