Micaiah vs. Nohr Corrin (spoilers)

[Azure Sen]

Edit: And then the game demonizes Ludveck for daring to worry that there is a problem. Don't get me wrong, Ludveck's an asshole, but he's right here.

Ludveck's "concerns" were just an excuse for him to incite a revolt. The game makes him out to be the bad guy because he's manipulating people's concerns in order to fuel his own ambitions.

[blah the Prussian]

Ludveck's "concerns" were just an excuse for him to incite a revolt. The game makes him out to be the bad guy because he's manipulating people's concerns in order to fuel his own ambitions.

No, they also make the concerns seem unfounded. And yeah, I know Ludveck is an asshole.

[Azure Sen]

No, they also make the concerns seem unfounded. And yeah, I know Ludveck is an asshole.

I used quotes for concern because Ludveck doesn't actually give a damn about Daein, or about the people of Crimea. He just wants to be king. An asshole making a point that he didn't mean to in the process of being an asshole doesn't mean that the game is demonizing him, especially since people who weren't trying to usurp the throne made the same point without inciting open rebellion. That and the primary concern about Daein is "will they start another war?" which was an unfounded fear until the Begnion senate got involved (and even then Daein didn't start the war anyway).

The whole "should they have been occupied again" question is rendered pointless by the fact that, in-universe, everyone recognizes Daein's sovereignty once they liberate themselves from Begnion's occupation.

Edited May 18, 2016 by AzureSen

[Shotguner159]

Of course she goes along with it. If she doesn't, she thinks the country will collapse. Which it would. The Priestess of Dawn disobeying the king she put on throne? Civil War time.

And why should Begnion reoccupy Daein? The Senate controls both anyway. And the Senate doesn't care about the opinion of Laguz, and sees Crimea and Daein as little more than territories of Begnion, so they wouldn't care about Crimea's opinion either.

Then what do you want Micaiah to do? Either she's tirelessly crusading for Laguz equality, or she's doing nothing to combat racism. It's either/or. Putting in a good word for the Laguz would do nothing. Crimea needed help from Laguz nations with both reclamation and reconstruction, and even then racism still exists in the country. Daein does not start in as good a place, and does not have that help. At best, Daein would just ignore 'a good word' to focus on reconstruction, so there's no point. And if she's campaigning for Laguz equality, she can't help with reconstruction efforts. Which she's doing to the point where, despite ostensibly living in Daein Keep, Pelleas barely sees her.

Plus, Micaiah's popularity would be rising even higher, since she's actively helping the reconstruction efforts. And Pelleas says that she's the only person he can turn to for a kind word. Once the county has recovered more, with Micaiah's enormous popularity power and proof that Pelleas isn't a terrible ruler, they could bring up that Crimea's recovery went quicker due to aid from Gallia, and that Laguz helped with Daein's liberation. Through Micaiah's connection with Queen Naliah, they could get aid in reconstruction from Beast Laguz, which combined with Micaiah's and Pelleas' support and the abolition of anti-Laguz propaganda, could improve Daein's perception of Laguz, especially for the younger generations.

And yeah, she really should've taken the throne for herself in Part 1. She wouldn't have signed the Blood Pact, and so Daein AND Hatari wouldn't have gotten involved in the war, preventing Ashera from awakening. However, Pelleas taking the throne did lead to all that, and thus the great bonds of friendship that unite the leaders of the nations at the end of the game, which would certainly help with creating an age of prosperity. I'm reaching here, it's pretty clear that the game didn't take place in the good visions, and due to her faded Farsight, Micaiah doesn't realize that.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

what i seem to be getting is that every country in Tellius should go into civil war because every country has racists in it.

civil war is one of the worst things that can happen for a country in my opinion and should try to be avoided at all costs.

i mean, would killing over half of Tellius's population be worth it just to end racism? or would that trigger ashura and yune's awakening even faster and under worse circumstances which would doom the world?

this is an honest question, also i'd rather not any country in real life start to eat itself up due to racism, i don't wanna see america get into a war over black lifes matter, i don't wanna see germany get into a war because of the refugee crisis.

i mean, is this what you guys are saying? that all racial issues should be sorted with civil war to end it all? I'm sorry but i have to disagree, there has to be a better and less bloody way to do this.

Edited May 18, 2016 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[NekoKnight]

And yeah, she really should've taken the throne for herself in Part 1. She wouldn't have signed the Blood Pact, and so Daein AND Hatari wouldn't have gotten involved in the war, preventing Ashera from awakening. However, Pelleas taking the throne did lead to all that, and thus the great bonds of friendship that unite the leaders of the nations at the end of the game, which would certainly help with creating an age of prosperity. I'm reaching here, it's pretty clear that the game didn't take place in the good visions, and due to her faded Farsight, Micaiah doesn't realize that.

Until Micaiah learned about her parentage, I don't think she was ever interested in being the leader of a country. Even her job as the head of the Daein's armies was only a temporary position to her. People in Beorc societies put a lot of stock in the legitimacy of blood, our heroes included, so even if Micaiah could be a better ruler than Pelleas, she WANTS him to to be a good king. Micaiah is all about preserving peace so she wouldn't take an action that would lead to a succession crisis.

[blah the Prussian]

We aren't debating if reoccupying Daein is good from the perspective of the Senate; I say it would be good for the geopolitical scene of Tellius, not for the Senate. And on the contrary, there is no guarentee that the reconstruction will succeed, and generally once any ruler actually starts to rule, they become less and less popular. There is no way for any ruler to reign without pissing off someone, so Micaiah's popularity really is at a high water mark at the end of Part 1. And the good word could be in secret, to Pelleas, which wouldn't disrupt the reconstruction and might convince him to stop being racist, and if it fails Micaiah could pretend to back down. Risk free, and only good can come of it. And yet, since the game mentions nothing of the sort, we can only assume that she didn't do this.

Edit: Right. I'm not saying that Micaiah should lead witch hunts against racists. But if the people rebel because she doesn't consider Laguz subhuman, they're the aggressors. That isn't peace, that's appeasement, and we all know how that turned out. Civil War is better than appeasement. Also, I'm pretty sure that no minority group in history would prefer oppression and peace to civil war and equality. Of course peace is to be preferred, but if you need to make a choice it is better to destroy racism now.

Edited May 18, 2016 by blah the Prussian

[Shotguner159]

We aren't debating if reoccupying Daein is good from the perspective of the Senate; I say it would be good for the geopolitical scene of Tellius, not for the Senate. And on the contrary, there is no guarentee that the reconstruction will succeed, and generally once any ruler actually starts to rule, they become less and less popular. There is no way for any ruler to reign without pissing off someone, so Micaiah's popularity really is at a high water mark at the end of Part 1. And the good word could be in secret, to Pelleas, which wouldn't disrupt the reconstruction and might convince him to stop being racist, and if it fails Micaiah could pretend to back down. Risk free, and only good can come of it. And yet, since the game mentions nothing of the sort, we can only assume that she didn't do this.

Edit: Right. I'm not saying that Micaiah should lead witch hunts against racists. But if the people rebel because she doesn't consider Laguz subhuman, they're the aggressors. That isn't peace, that's appeasement, and we all know how that turned out. Civil War is better than appeasement. Also, I'm pretty sure that no minority group in history would prefer oppression and peace to civil war and equality. Of course peace is to be preferred, but if you need to make a choice it is better to destroy racism now.

But the only country capable of occupying Daein is Begnion, which is controlled by the Senate and not Sanaki after Part 1, and they don't care about the geopolitical scene of Tellius.

Yeah, I see your point there. Although I don't thing we can assume that she didn't say anything, Pelleas says Laguz in Part 3 without having to verbally backspace from sub-human and seemingly has no problems being around the Laguz in Part 4, so he appears to have become less racist than he was in Part 1, perhaps as a result of Micaiah's influence.

And yeah, she should take action against their racism, and presumably did after she took the throne, but is the best time to try and remove the racism and possibly incite civil war during the reconstruction efforts? The reaction of the citizens would be the same afterwards as it would have been during, but the stabler ground would mean that Daein would still exist as a country if it did come to civil war, rather than ceasing to be.

[BruceLee]

I see people say Micaiah could only start doing something about the racism after Daein is finished rebuilding. Tell me, why the fuck does she join the soldiers in their fucking sub-human hunt? Because that's all it is, as far as she knows. Is that part of the reconstruction????

this is an honest question, also i'd rather not any country in real life start to eat itself up due to racism, i don't wanna see america get into a war over black lifes matter, i don't wanna see germany get into a war because of the refugee crisis.

Is the US going on black people hunts????

[saisymbolic]

First, this thread started off talking about which character is better. Now, I'm reading about racism, which I'm pretty sure wasn't placed into the game with such depth as everyone is thinking.

Now, I'm all for using IRL examples to base my assumptions, theories and understandings off of but I think we should to reel this conversation in before Eclipse wanders in and decides to lock it.

[NekoKnight]

I see people say Micaiah could only start doing something about the racism after Daein is finished rebuilding. Tell me, why the fuck does she join the soldiers in their fucking sub-human hunt? Because that's all it is, as far as she knows. Is that part of the reconstruction????

You need to calm down.

Begnion is at war with the Laguz and ordered Pelleas to attack their army. Micaiah is the leader of Daein's army so she attacks the Laguz Alliance forces. Did you forget that the Laguz they are "hunting" are in fact part of an organized army? They're enemy soldiers.

First, this thread started off talking about which character is better. Now, I'm reading about racism, which I'm pretty sure wasn't placed into the game with such depth as everyone is thinking.

Now, I'm all for using IRL examples to base my assumptions, theories and understandings off of but I think we should to reel this conversation in before Eclipse wanders in and decides to lock it.

Racism and the complexity of Micaiah's situation are very much a part of the game.

But you are probably right about people getting too heated in voicing their opinions.

[Shotguner159]

I see people say Micaiah could only start doing something about the racism after Daein is finished rebuilding. Tell me, why the fuck does she join the soldiers in their fucking sub-human hunt? Because that's all it is, as far as she knows. Is that part of the reconstruction???

Because if she doesn't, she thinks Daein will collapse. The country that she took back from occupation and oppression, that she's put so much work into rebuilding would be gone. Plus, it's because she's doing her job as General of Daein's armies. Begnion asked for military aid, and Daein elected to answer. She has to lead them into battle in a legitimate military campaign. Just as she later fights against the Apostle's Army, which was comprised of more Beorc than Laguz.

Or should she refuse, and let Daein tear itself apart, and have the country itself cease to be?

[BruceLee]

You need to calm down.

Begnion is at war with the Laguz and ordered Pelleas to attack their army. Micaiah is the leader of Daein's army so she attacks the Laguz Alliance forces. Did you forget that the Laguz they are "hunting" are in fact part of an organized army? They're enemy soldiers.

No, they're not just enemy soldiers, they're sub-humans according to Pelleas, who she doesn't want to ''let down''. They're sub-humans according to the soldiers who are excited about hunting them, who she also doesn't want to ''let down''.

So don't try to write it off like they're just enemy soldiers, the soldiers see it as a sub-human hunt. So does Sothe.

[Book Bro]

Ok maybe I also need to refresh my memory on RD, but when exactly are the supposed sub-human hunts led by Micaiah?

After part 1, she leads the army against Gallia during the river crossing. Gallia is an enemy of Begnion and therefore Daein. If some of her soldiers express racist anti-laguz sentiment, that doesn't make this a sub-human hunt. There is no racial motive behind this attack. They're defending a crucial point from an enemy army's advance. They're not going out looking for filthy sub-humans to kill for fun.

Then you have the chapter with the Apostle's army, and the chapter against the Greil Mercenaries. The latter has laguz as members of the enemy's forces, but again, it's not an attack specifically targeting laguz because of racism.

So...am I missing something?

[Azure Sen]

Ok maybe I also need to refresh my memory on RD, but when exactly are the supposed sub-human hunts led by Micaiah?

After part 1, she leads the army against Gallia during the river crossing. Gallia is an enemy of Begnion and therefore Daein. If some of her soldiers express racist anti-laguz sentiment, that doesn't make this a sub-human hunt. There is no racial motive behind this attack. They're defending a crucial point from an enemy army's advance. They're not going out looking for filthy sub-humans to kill for fun.

Then you have the chapter with the Apostle's army, and the chapter against the Greil Mercenaries. The latter has laguz as members of the enemy's forces, but again, it's not an attack specifically targeting laguz because of racism.

So...am I missing something?

There is a part (specifically, the pre-battle sceen in 3-6) where Micaiah notes that the soldiers are excited to fight the Laguz Allaince because a bounty is being offered for every kill they get. The actual laguz hunts were organized parties of citizens and soldiers who killed laguz refuges who escaped from into Daein from Begnion.

Edited May 18, 2016 by AzureSen

[BruceLee]

Ok maybe I also need to refresh my memory on RD, but when exactly are the supposed sub-human hunts led by Micaiah?

After part 1, she leads the army against Gallia during the river crossing. Gallia is an enemy of Begnion and therefore Daein. If some of her soldiers express racist anti-laguz sentiment, that doesn't make this a sub-human hunt. There is no racial motive behind this attack. They're defending a crucial point from an enemy army's advance. They're not going out looking for filthy sub-humans to kill for fun.

Then you have the chapter with the Apostle's army, and the chapter against the Greil Mercenaries. The latter has laguz as members of the enemy's forces, but again, it's not an attack specifically targeting laguz because of racism.

So...am I missing something?

So why does Daein aid Begnion? All the signs say it's because they like killing laguz. Sothe thinks so too, anyone thinking clearly would.

And i'll remind you the laguz alliance had proposed a peace treaty with Begnion, and they were going back to their country when Micaiah and her soldiers ambushed them, trapping them between Daein's and Begnion's forces.

Edited May 18, 2016 by BruceLee

[NekoKnight]

No, they're not just enemy soldiers, they're sub-humans according to Pelleas, who she doesn't want to ''let down''. They're sub-humans according to the soldiers who are excited about hunting them, who she also doesn't want to ''let down''.

So don't try to write it off like they're just enemy soldiers, the soldiers see it as a sub-human hunt. So does Sothe.

A lot of her soldiers are racist, it's acknowledged that they are happy to fight the Laguz on that account. Sothe calls them Laguz-hunts because from his perspective they don't have a reason to be attacking the Laguz. Micaiah is the general of her army so when she talks about not letting Pelleas or her soldiers down, she's talking about the responsibilities of her position. It's a military request by Begnion, not random lynchings.

Ok maybe I also need to refresh my memory on RD, but when exactly are the supposed sub-human hunts led by Micaiah?

After part 1, she leads the army against Gallia during the river crossing. Gallia is an enemy of Begnion and therefore Daein. If some of her soldiers express racist anti-laguz sentiment, that doesn't make this a sub-human hunt. There is no racial motive behind this attack. They're defending a crucial point from an enemy army's advance. They're not going out looking for filthy sub-humans to kill for fun.

Then you have the chapter with the Apostle's army, and the chapter against the Greil Mercenaries. The latter has laguz as members of the enemy's forces, but again, it's not an attack specifically targeting laguz because of racism.

So...am I missing something?

No, you got it right.

[BruceLee]

A lot of her soldiers are racist, it's acknowledged that they are happy to fight the Laguz on that account. Sothe calls them Laguz-hunts because from his perspective they don't have a reason to be attacking the Laguz. Micaiah is the general of her army so when she talks about not letting Pelleas or her soldiers down, she's talking about the responsibilities of her position. It's a military request by Begnion, not random lynchings.

No, you got it right.

Do they from Micaiah's perspective?

[NekoKnight]

Do they from Micaiah's perspective?

She was ordered to and she's obliged to obey her king. That's the reason. In that very scene, she tells Sothe that she doesn't want to fight but she has to because her personal feelings don't matter.

[BruceLee]

You're not answering my question.

[NekoKnight]

You're not answering my question.

What is the question? If Micaiah thinks they have a reason to be fighting the Laguz Alliance outside of being ordered to? No, she doesn't agree with this and as I stated, she doesn't want to fight anyone.

[BruceLee]

What is the question? If Micaiah thinks they have a reason to be fighting the Laguz Alliance outside of being ordered to? No, she doesn't agree with this and as I stated, she doesn't want to fight anyone.

So you're telling me she also sees it as a Laguz-hunt?

[NekoKnight]

So you're telling me she also sees it as a Laguz-hunt?

No, I'm telling you she sees it as a military conflict Daein has no part in, but is being ordered by Begnion to participate in.

[BruceLee]

No, I'm telling you she sees it as a military conflict Daein has no part in, but is being ordered by Begnion to participate in.

So when we're talking about Sothe it's laguz-hunt but when when we're talking about Micaiah it's military conflict.

Edited May 18, 2016 by BruceLee

[NekoKnight]

So when we're talking about Sothe it's laguz-hunt but when when we're talking about Micaiah it's military conflict.

Hey, now you're getting it! Sothe views it as bigotry because morally speaking, he doesn't see a reason for Daein to fight the laguz. Micaiah, however, is fulfilling her responsibilities as Daein's general.

The duality of Sothe and Micaiah's relationship is that Sothe sees things from a simplistic, moralist viewpoint (which is still useful to keep Micaiah's morality in check) without regard to political realities and Micaiah sees things primarily through her obligations to her country. Sothe can tell her what she's doing is wrong but he can't tell her an alternative either, which is why Micaiah laments she's not capable of acting on her feelings.

Edited May 18, 2016 by NekoKnight