Micaiah vs. Nohr Corrin (spoilers)

[Azure Sen]

There is very much that suggest Pelleas' motive is racism, that i've already pointed out numerous times.

Which is irrelevant, because the game shows us that Micaiah never considers racism to be Pelleas's motive.

I pointed out earlier that the laguz alliance had already proposed a peace treaty and were marching back to their countries when Micaiah and her soldiers ambushed them. No one seems to be bothered addressing that.

Because a( they weren't proposing a peace treaty; they had been given a three-day cease-fire by Zelgius to consider his offer of making peace (which the Begnion Senate quickly overruled because chain of command, and wouldn't have worked anyway because the Senate's coup had already begun) and b( because the Laguz Alliance was only retreating temporarily anyway, with no guarantee that once Skimir recovered that they wouldn't reform and launch their invasion again.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Ah the memories this discussion brings up. Back when Micaiah was considered the biggest Mary Sue in the franchise and IkexSoren M!Preg fics popped up like weeds~

[BruceLee]

On the bridge, she does know she is fighting the Apostle. So that's not an answer either.

You need to answer it again. If you don't, I assume you can't.

Are you serious right now? I was talking about when she got her first order against the laguz....

Actually, they didn't. Zelgius offered the choice, with a three-day cease-fire to think it over. They instead choose to use the time to retreat, and a peace offer was never officially done. And then the Senate overruled Zelgius cease-fire since they outrank him.

They were still marching back to their countries, making the excuse of a request for military aid weak. Pelleas says to Micaiah they are answering Begnion's request to wipe out the laguz alliance, and Micaiah ambushes them while they are retreating trapping them between them and Begnion. Just like a hunt.

Which is irrelevant, because the game shows us that Micaiah never considers racism to be Pelleas's motive.

Sothe does. I would. It's the logical conclusion. And Sothe remarks that they are turning into bigots and Micaiah doesn't correct him.

Edited May 19, 2016 by BruceLee

[Baldrick]

Are you serious right now? I was talking about when she got her first order against the laguz....

Bolded: That's not what the question is about. I'll empathise it so you have no more excuse to evade it.

Why is it okay for Micaiah to fight the Apostles forces but not okay for them to fight the Laguz forces? Both were ordered by Begnion because they are Begnion's enemies.

If she thought Pelleas was motivated by racism, why (does he tell her to, and she doesn't question) fight the apostle?

[Fyras4]

On another note, did the whole Corrin vs Micaiah just get buried in the whole 'what Micaiah and Daine did wrong/didn't do' discussion...frankly, I think the topic needs a name change at the point its going.

Not that I mind...I'm enjoying the discussion and the history lessons that come with it.

[Acacia Sgt]

On another note, did the whole Corrin vs Micaiah just get buried in the whole 'what Micaiah and Daine did wrong/didn't do' discussion...frankly, I think the topic needs a name change at the point its going.

Not that I mind...I'm enjoying the discussion and the history lessons that come with it.

I think it was stated a few pages back that this is all dealing with Micaiah's side of the debate, as Corrin's doesn't really have much to discuss about to already reach a conclusion.

[BruceLee]

Bolded: That's not what the question is about. I'll empathise it so you have no more excuse to evade it.

You're funny.

I said she couldn't have known she would be fighting the apostle's army in the future, back when she got her first order against the laguz, meaning it still had all the signs of a laguz hunt, at the time.

Get it now?

[Baldrick]

You're funny.

I said she couldn't have known she would be fighting the apostle's army in the future, back when she got her first order against the laguz, meaning it still had all the signs of a laguz hunt, at the time.

Get it now?

Why did you bring up the blood pact as a justification for Micaiah attacking the apostle's army then? And I quote:

When she was fighting the apostle's army she had a good reason to, the blood pact.

Ever since I trashed that answer, you've been avoiding answering that question because you know you can't answer it.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Tricky Drick

[BruceLee]

Why did you bring up the blood pact to justify Micaiah attacking the apostle's army then?

Bro, did i not already admit that i forgot about that? Are you even reading what you quote.

edit: you're just making a fool of yourself now.....

Edited May 19, 2016 by BruceLee

[Fyras4]

I think it was stated a few pages back that this is all dealing with Micaiah's side of the debate, as Corrin's doesn't really have much to discuss about to already reach a conclusion.

Funny...don't recall reading that...but oh, well.

At least when it comes to Corrin, his/her part is easy to explain but not much to work with. Micaiah, from what I've read, is a bit more complicated, considering the whole business with laguz and beorc; Corrin's part just dealt with the nasty humans that come to skin the foxes for their pelt, pretty tamed compared to what happen in RD and PoR but then again...

[Baldrick]

Bro, did i not already admit that i forgot about that? Are you even reading what you quote.

So you admit there's no good reason for Micaiah to fight Sanaki at the bridge, apart from blind faith in Pelleas?

Then it is this same blind faith, rather than racism, that is the reason for Daein ambushing the LA.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Tricky Drick

[BruceLee]

So you admit there's no good reason for Micaiah to fight Sanaki at the bridge?

I've never denied that?

edit: Except back then it had all the signs of a sub-human hunt. At the bridge she was still doing it out of her stupid faith in Pelleas, but it wasn't a sub-human hunt.

Edited May 19, 2016 by BruceLee

[Acacia Sgt]

Funny...don't recall reading that...but oh, well.

At least when it comes to Corrin, his/her part is easy to explain but not much to work with. Micaiah, from what I've read, is a bit more complicated, considering the whole business with laguz and beorc; Corrin's part just dealt with the nasty humans that come to skin the foxes for their pelt, pretty tamed compared to what happen in RD and PoR but then again...

Actually, this isn't just regarding racism. It's more of a general statement.

[Book Bro]

They were still marching back to their countries, making the excuse of a request for military aid weak. Pelleas says to Micaiah they are answering Begnion's request to wipe out the laguz alliance, and Micaiah ambushes them while they are retreating trapping them between them and Begnion. Just like a hunt.

Dirty tactics maybe, but the attack still isn't racially motivated, so calling it a sub-human hunt is inaccurate. They would've done the same if it had been a beorc army, I'm sure.

[eclipse]

First, this thread started off talking about which character is better. Now, I'm reading about racism, which I'm pretty sure wasn't placed into the game with such depth as everyone is thinking.

Now, I'm all for using IRL examples to base my assumptions, theories and understandings off of but I think we should to reel this conversation in before Eclipse wanders in and decides to lock it.

I'm not the only one with lock powers. . .but I'm the most forgiving, in terms of this topic. And the only reason why I haven't done much of anything is because part of the discussion regarding Micaiah involves the rest of Tellius. That's the consequence of having a game that properly encompasses a continent (or the parts the story cares about).

Yes, she should refuse the fucking order. -_-

Am i really expecting too much from Micaiah when i don't want her to go hunting with her sub-human hunting buddies? -_-

Yes.

Unless you want your stories to be as unrealistic-feeling as Fates.

But as far as I'm concerned, that's what makes Micaiah better than Corrin. As divisive as some of her actions may be, the game itself does not tell us whether she's wrong or right. Rather, we're allowed to make our own decisions of her actions. Corrin did things that were just as bad as, if not worse than, what Micaiah had to do over the course of RD. But the game itself can't even tell us that because the entire narrative is twisted around protecting Corrin from criticism. Micaiah is a more interesting character to dissect and discuss, as is Daein as a nation over Nohr.

IMO this isn't something that's Corrin the Character's fault. This is the fault of the writing around Corrin.

I'm beginning to think that Corrin is passive both in-universe and out (hell, the writing refuses to let him/her grow).

---

So, with that being said, I'm gonna remind the ENTIRE TOPIC of a couple of things:

1. Part of the beauty of RD is that there's no judgment on Micaiah's actions, so differing opinions are to be expected. If you can't accept that someone else's opinions may be different from yours, this topic isn't for you.

2. We're in the Fates subforum, so do remember that Corrin should be a part of this topic, somewhere. If you're completely unable to work him/her in, feel free to make a topic about Micaiah in the Radiant Dawn subforum.

[Sunwoo]

edit: you're just making a fool of yourself now.....

No, that's you.

Again, you don't have to agree with Micaiah's character or what she did, but you don't seem to understand how politics or things work if you think it's really that easy to eradicate racism that soon, when the country is still in a shithole. A country's interest should also be in its own survival. I mean, yeah, making awful, racist decisions sucks. But if it's between that and the survival of your country, a king or a general who's holding the lives of their people in their hands HAVE to make those difficult decisions. Who are you to tell innocent people that they deserve to die and be destroyed because they were born in the wrong country?

IMO this isn't something that's Corrin the Character's fault. This is the fault of the writing around Corrin.

Regardless of whether Corrin is railroaded by the writing or not, I still don't think they're a good character in general, and the poor writing doesn't do them any favors. In other words, Corrin would be less frustrating if the game would let them grow, but imo they would still not be a likable character for me. The game, however, does not let them grow. And even though that's primarily on the writing and not Corrin as a character, it affects him negatively and I think it is fair to judge them for it since the writing is the canon that we get.

[Baldrick]

There's writing of the plot that happens, and writing of how characters react to it.

The problem with the throne gambit in Fates is that it really should have been a last resort; if Corrin had spent several chapters trying to build support against or disposing of Garon, without no success, then do the throne thing once it's clear the invasion can't be stopped, then it'd be fair to put all the blame on the railroad plot.

[eclipse]

Regardless of whether Corrin is railroaded by the writing or not, I still don't think they're a good character in general, and the poor writing doesn't do them any favors. In other words, Corrin would be less frustrating if the game would let them grow, but imo they would still not be a likable character for me. The game, however, does not let them grow. And even though that's primarily on the writing and not Corrin as a character, it affects him negatively and I think it is fair to judge them for it since the writing is the canon that we get.

That's just it.

Since Corrin is given no opportunities to grow, I can't say whether Corrin would've turned out better/worse than Micaiah. However, for all the world-building and growth, Micaiah managed to irritate me as a character anyway. That's why I give Corrin the advantage in this situation. I'm willing to put my bet on an unknown quantity, rather than one I know and don't care for.

There's writing of the plot that happens, and writing of how characters react to it.

The problem with the throne gambit in Fates is that it really should have been a last resort; if Corrin had spent several chapters trying to build support against or disposing of Garon, without no success, then do the throne thing once it's clear the invasion can't be stopped, then it'd be fair to put all the blame on the railroad plot.

IMO that should've been everyone else's job. The game paints Corrin as really naive, with little real-world experience. What I can blame Corrin for is not figuring out how to tell everyone else (reminds me of the blood pact, with less "you can't tell anyone" behind it).

But no, the supporting cast doesn't bother giving Corrin opportunities to react to things that don't go his/her way, and that' just a shame.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

There's writing of the plot that happens, and writing of how characters react to it.

The problem with the throne gambit in Fates is that it really should have been a last resort; if Corrin had spent several chapters trying to build support against or disposing of Garon, without no success, then do the throne thing once it's clear the invasion can't be stopped, then it'd be fair to put all the blame on the railroad plot.

Well, there was the Ice Tribe, who more or less pledged allegiance to Corrin and then proceeded disappear and never be mentioned again. Cheve could have been a thing if the story didn't immediately slaughter them. And then there's the crystal ball where it was a late chance for Corrin to build support among the siblings and Gunter, but then the plot goes "LOLNOPE" and Azura screws that up for no good reason. In the very, very late game, there's also the Wind Tribe, who clearly have some very capable fighters and that Corrin gains the trust of, but they don't even send Hayato with him in this path. So yeah, there's plenty of points where the game sort of sets Corrin up to gain some real momentum against Garon and then immediately steers everything away from it. Seems pretty railroady to me.

[blah the Prussian]

None of this matters because this is what Lehran wanted to happen. Lehran, discontent with waiting another 200 years, allowed the Senate to become so corrupt they burned down Serenes Forest. This lead to a falling out between most of Tellius and the Laguz Nations, save Crimea and Gallia at the national level. The Senate manipulated Ashnard into killing and driving out the Laguz into Begnion, allowing the Senate to enslave them, and further causing tension between Laguz and Beorc. Ashnard then invaded Crimea, which lead to Path of Radiance, which lead to Radiant Dawn. Micaiah's actions DO NOT FUCKING MATTER! Lehran created a situation that would make asses out of everyone involved just so Ashera would pass judgment. Also, I have a headcanon that Soren overthrows Pelleas, Sanaki abdicates to Micaiah, and Kurth forcibly unites all the Laguz nations, with only Crimea having the same ruler it did prior to judgment.

Okay, I'm fine with most of this (especially Soren overthrowing King Pissant) but please no Sanaki abdicating to Micaiah! Not one of the best characters in FE history! Please, no!

[Fyras4]

Well, there was the Ice Tribe, who more or less pledged allegiance to Corrin and then proceeded disappear and never be mentioned again. Cheve could have been a thing if the story didn't immediately slaughter them. And then there's the crystal ball where it was a late chance for Corrin to build support among the siblings and Gunter, but then the plot goes "LOLNOPE" and Azura screws that up for no good reason. In the very, very late game, there's also the Wind Tribe, who clearly have some very capable fighters and that Corrin gains the trust of, but they don't even send Hayato with him in this path. So yeah, there's plenty of points where the game sort of sets Corrin up to gain some real momentum against Garon and then immediately steers everything away from it. Seems pretty railroady to me.

It's really interesting, though...how the writing just goes one way but it feels like the characters want to pull the other way; at least in the case of what Corrin and Azura were planning about the whole Garon and the throne business and suddenly u-turns and decided to go on errands for Garon, instead of doing anything about the whole thing..and that's not the fault of the characters, its how the story is written.

With Micaiah, its less of a push and pull kind of situation: the plot follows different characters, different view points and different conflicts unlike Corrin in Conquest, so in a way, she has the advantage on how people react to her actions as a whole.

In Conquest, Corrin is painted as a hero, to one side (no matter the stupid decisions, mind you) but Micaiah is both depending on which side you're on.

Corrin would have benefited more with a similar situation to Micaiah's...at least, that's what I think anyway.

[Moblin Major General]

Okay, I'm fine with most of this (especially Soren overthrowing King Pissant) but please no Sanaki abdicating to Micaiah! Not one of the best characters in FE history! Please, no!

Micaiah is the legitimate heir to the throne of Begnion. Sanaki might be a good character, but as the narrative tells, all of her reforms are railroaded by the Senate. Throughout Radiant Dawn, Micaiah is constantly victimized by the Begnion Senate, and upon her ascension, would probably shut it down, regardless of how controversial the move is with the people of Begnion. Sanaki would probably try to enact reforms, but she'll only run into more corruption(read:Death doesn't kill people, especially Oliver).

[blah the Prussian]

Micaiah is the legitimate heir to the throne of Begnion. Sanaki might be a good character, but as the narrative tells, all of her reforms are railroaded by the Senate. Throughout Radiant Dawn, Micaiah is constantly victimized by the Begnion Senate, and upon her ascension, would probably shut it down, regardless of how controversial the move is with the people of Begnion. Sanaki would probably try to enact reforms, but she'll only run into more corruption(read:Death doesn't kill people, especially Oliver).

Oh, come on. At this point the Senate has literally tried to bring about the apocalypse. There is no way their commands mean anything, if they even exist anymore. Even if by some miracle the Senators survive they don't have any political power whatsoever. Think the Roman Senate in the Empire; it was kept around for nostalgia but if it ever actually defied the Emperor it was in for a reality check, free of charge.

[Augestein]

I'm not the only one with lock powers. . .but I'm the most forgiving, in terms of this topic. And the only reason why I haven't done much of anything is because part of the discussion regarding Micaiah involves the rest of Tellius. That's the consequence of having a game that properly encompasses a continent (or the parts the story cares about).

This made me laugh more than it should have honestly.

Also, this topic is making me realize that Micaiah might be my favorite lord in the series. The only lord that actually had to answer to a chain of command, and had actual consequences for following orders-- even if she personally didn't like them. It's funny, because Corrin has this same sort of setup. The only difference is that they made Conquest have you basically play as the "evil" empire-- and the character lead knows it. For comparisons sake, you'd have to compare someone like Zelgius and Corrin.

I think the biggest issue with Corrin, is that Corrin "knew" his army was evil too soon, and there wasn't enough time for Corrin to really establish a bona fide love for Nohr, or even ever really *fight* for Nohr to have some form of love for it before Nohr was revealed to be "evil." It's not simply a matter of how Corrin doesn't grow, it's a matter of there being no real conflicts that can have any real depth because everything is set out on the table too soon, so the characters can't really have interesting responses to things of story pacing -- which is somehow worse than RD's. In Conquest, they don't even try to hide that Garon is crazy, and no one does anything with this knowledge. You do atrocities and you know something is wrong with your ruler... But you do nothing. It's really awkward. In RD, there wasn't enough time for Micaiah to question this, and more specifically, Pelleas is sort of able to be related to and has enough screen time to show that he's a rather plain guy. Compare that to Garon stats out evil, and basically declares war when the smarter way is to break off with Garon, have your own army ally with the rebellion that's ALREADY HAPPENING IN NOHR and then petition Hoshido, a country that's already fighting with Nohr to aid-- you know, exactly what Scarlet did in Revelations and Hoshido? That's the issue. Conquest's story is stupid for those reasons as the better path would have simply to have made Corrin just puppy kicking evil at that point.

I'm kinda in agreement with Eclipse. Corrin kind of sucks, but some of the reason corrin sucks so much is because a lot of stuff is dumb around Corrin.

[blah the Prussian]

This made me laugh more than it should have honestly.

Also, this topic is making me realize that Micaiah might be my favorite lord in the series. The only lord that actually had to answer to a chain of command, and had actual consequences for following orders-- even if she personally didn't like them. It's funny, because Corrin has this same sort of setup. The only difference is that they made Conquest have you basically play as the "evil" empire-- and the character lead knows it. For comparisons sake, you'd have to compare someone like Zelgius and Corrin.

I think the biggest issue with Corrin, is that Corrin "knew" his army was evil too soon, and there wasn't enough time for Corrin to really establish a bona fide love for Nohr, or even ever really *fight* for Nohr to have some form of love for it before Nohr was revealed to be "evil." It's not simply a matter of how Corrin doesn't grow, it's a matter of there being no real conflicts that can have any real depth because everything is set out on the table too soon, so the characters can't really have interesting responses to things of story pacing -- which is somehow worse than RD's. In Conquest, they don't even try to hide that Garon is crazy, and no one does anything with this knowledge. You do atrocities and you know something is wrong with your ruler... But you do nothing. It's really awkward. In RD, there wasn't enough time for Micaiah to question this, and more specifically, Pelleas is sort of able to be related to and has enough screen time to show that he's a rather plain guy. Compare that to Garon stats out evil, and basically declares war when the smarter way is to break off with Garon, have your own army ally with the rebellion that's ALREADY HAPPENING IN NOHR and then petition Hoshido, a country that's already fighting with Nohr to aid-- you know, exactly what Scarlet did in Revelations and Hoshido? That's the issue. Conquest's story is stupid for those reasons as the better path would have simply to have made Corrin just puppy kicking evil at that point.

I'm kinda in agreement with Eclipse. Corrin kind of sucks, but some of the reason corrin sucks so much is because a lot of stuff is dumb around Corrin.

The problem with that path, though, is that that's just Birthright-lite. You fight Nohr on both paths, so, ultimately, what's the difference? I still think the best route would be to have grey and grey morality; I do, after all, want to fight Hoshido in some manner.