Micaiah vs. Nohr Corrin (spoilers)

[eclipse]

How exactly is the ability to turn into a dragon not an example of the latter?

Once Corrin gets it under control, it's never used in the story again (IIRC). I think you would've had a better argument with the Yato.

[Sentinel07]

TC pretty much stated all my reasons for liking Micaiah more. I've also liked her pretty much since the beginning.

However, I will agree with another thing. I can't blame Corrin entirely. A lot of what happened is because of the morons around him which kind of hindered his own growth.

Xander's inability to come to terms with the change in his dad, Azura's absurd decision making, Ryoma's over coddling....they all deserve blame.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Sentinel07

[Purikaman]

I have to be honest here, voted for Corrin as being the better character because I just can not stand Micaiah. I simply can not stand her at all. Conquest history is so absurd, incoherent and full of idiots that lack common sense that I believe you can just put any kind of absurd stuff and it won't break the suspension of disbelief... because there was none in the first place. So I can believe and accept how ridiculous and unique is Corrin because it feel like there was no intention of making it believable in the first place.

Micaiah on the other hand just feels out place in her setting, it just feel ridiculous how unique she is, how special. She does get call out for his actions thought, I give her that.

However one of the biggest reasons that I can not stand Micaiah is just how pointless I end up feeling part 1 of RD thanks to her actions in part 3, like really, what was I was fighting for in part 1 if at the end Daein is just gonna end being controlled by Bengion again?

And because she has to protect Daein at all cost, she refuse to even try to seek help. Her loyalty to Daein also bothers me a lot, she blindly fights for it; her reasons are: “Because the people of Daein were nice to me in the war”. And I just can't buy that, if people had now she was a branded I don't believe they would had been kind to her, she developed a blind devotion to Daein in such a ridiculous way that her motivations end up feeling pretty shallow, and on the topic of that I can not stand how she will be likely to doom the entire world if that means Daein will be saved...

So yeah, sorry for the rant, I know a lot of the stuff I say could easily apply to Corrin if not all, yes I have strong bias against Micaiah so I can not see this as objectively as I should and I can totally see why most people would pick Micaiah as the better charecther, but as I said, for me Conquest is just so ridiculously and lacks any kind of true structure that I can accept Corrin and his stupidity, but I can't accept Micaiah, period.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Purikaman

[Grimalkenkid]

I really like both Micaiah and Corrin, actually, but I voted for Micaiah because she has more canon "character" than Corrin does. I won't even touch all of the reasoning behind how they justify their actions and how the narrative frames those actions since I really can't articulate my thoughts on it very well.

But, from a character perspective, I do think Micaiah is more robust since most of the things I enjoy about Corrin's character are the things we have to imagine... like their everyday life or their reactions that just aren't given enough time to show in-game.

tl;dr I like both but Micaiah's better as a character because she's not a self-insert like Corrin.

[blah the Prussian]

Well, one of them sides with a horrifically aggressive regime who are unashamed in their goals for extermination, defends war criminals, and willingly wages a war of aggression. The other is the protagonist of Fates.

In all seriousness, yeah, this is hard. I think Corrin is worse overall because the narrative around him is worse. Micaiah, though, is still pretty bad. I feel like her decision to give Daein Independance at all was terrible. To use something from history, what if Germany, just THREE YEARS after WWII, was granted total Independance, no strings attached? The narrative even shows this as an issue but drops it, with Daein soldiers basically saying "Yeah, let's kill the sub humans!" and Micaiah being "K". She makes no attempt to actually reform Daein, to rid it of the bad shit that happened to it. As for the soldiers in the work camps? I would have done the same thing. These are basically the FE versions of the SS being freed from prison. Begnion was shown to be prepared to send in someone better than Jarod, so their offer should have been accepted. It doesn't help when Ludveck is treated as being the bad guy for being all "Hey yeah, maybe this is a problem?" On the other hand, Micaiah doesn't have anything akin to the venerable Corrin Dick Sucking Brigade, and the narrative does call her out on some of her shit, and she is far, far more interesting than Corrin. She also, though, knowingly supports a brutal racist regime without the intention to eventually expose them as a slime monster, so there's that.

[Medeus]

Micaiah for me as well.

My biggest issue with Corrin in the narrative of Fates is that it bends over backwards to justify the character's actions no matter how stupid they are. Corrin is painted as this self-sacrificing paragon in the story that fights for everyone and will bring peace to the world, and yet they commit horribly destructive and idiotic actions and never had it questioned as such. Hoshido is ravaged and many of the cast are dead, but the living siblings don't care and ignore it, things like the Kitsune genocide are just swept under the rug rather then allow Corrin to grow from those type of incidents, and characters like Kaze never come up and question them for their choices even though their actions are visually not for the best of Hoshido like they promised. The narrative does too much to try to keep Corrin (and by proxy, the player) as squeaky clean as possible, and as a result, we get a stagnant character that doesn't evolve nor adapt to what the story needs them to be.

Micaiah isn't the best written character either, but where she succeeds and Corrin does not is how the story treats her actions. The narrative doesn't bend over backwards to keep her a pure character, she was allowed to get her hands dirty and the player is expected to see that she has done so. People question her, you had Sothe, Soren, and other characters call her out and question what she was doing and their criticisms usually were valid (or at least, understandable). Her actions are also shown in a negative light as even she questions whether she's in the right, but ultimately comes to the conclusion that she will keep fighting even if she isn't. She just wants to do well by Daein, she's not trying to say she'll save the world, she's just trying to protect her country above all else. That recognition in the story is what tips the scales in her favor for me. Corrin was put into a story that was supposed to have moral ambiguity and failed because it couldn't make them morally ambiguous and kept them pure, Micaiah was written with the idea that she would make morally ambiguous actions, and it kept that course up until the end of Part 3 (where the focus shifts to the goddesses). she was able to fit the mold because the story allowed her to, the same wasn't done for Corrin and Nohr's story suffers for it as a result.

[Thane]

Two special snowflakes that annoy me, but one of them gets called out for being a dick and is allowed to get her hands dirty, and the other one isn't. Yupp, Micaiah wins this one.

[Water Mage]

Micaiah fan number 8# here.

One of the things I like about Micaiah is that she's not some naive teenager.

Despite her looks, she's actually aroud 30 years old, and it shows.

She's a good person and yet she's bitter and resentful.

She pretty much is a person who is a pessimistic adult stuck in a teenage hero situation.

While I don't have many problems with Nohr! Corrin as some people do, I can't simply understand Corrin would choose Nohr.

The sibilings are no reason to chose the morally wrong side. And that's not counting the fact that there's someone in Nohr that's actively trying to kill you and you know about it.

[UNLEASH IT]

Before I start discussing anything, people seem to forget that while Corrin is the major reason for Conquest's shitty story, Azura's terrible decision making also contributes to it. So instead of comparing Micaiah to Corrin, it should really be complaring Micaiah to Corrin and Azura.

On the one hand, I can sort of understand why Nohr Corrin acts the way he does. He is pampered by his servants and coddled immensely by Xander and Camilla. And since he chose Nohr, he doesn't really have to deal with any adversity from their cast since they would have no reason to be suspicious of him, unlike in Hoshido. So it makes sense that he's extremely naive, indecisive and just follows Azura's terrible advice without question. Now, Micaiah is around 25 years old and grew up in much harsher circumstances, so she shouldn't really be making such awful decisions.

On the other hand, despite the fact that Corrin and Azura make dumb decisions, they never have to deal with the consequences of said decisions and the story always portrays them as brilliant, righteous leaders, rarely getting called out on anything. Micaiah however, in addition to getting constantly called out on her bad decision making by most of the cast, has to face the consequences of said decisions. For one, she has to deal with the guilt of killing thousands of people and also gets her ass handed to her on quite a few occasions by Ike and Tibarn.

Overall, if I really had to chose a better character, it'd be Micaiah, simply because she isn't portrayed as some perfect human being.

Also, @Water Mage, his siblings are literally the only reason for choosing Nohr. Remember that these are the people he grew up with. Even if Nohr was the wrong side and Garon was constantly trying to kill him, it can be very difficult to abandon the ones you grew up with for people you just met. So, I can understand if Corrin chose Nohr, to a certain extent. If Corrin chose Nohr only because of his siblings, I really wouldn't hold it against him. It's when he tries to rationalize that he can change Nohr from the inside, only to do nothing of the sort until the very end that I want to reach through the screen and choke him.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Chad Thundercock

[Jave]

Micaiah Fan #9. I liked her before it was cool.

I like both characters, really. But I give the lead to Micaiah because unlike Corrin, she manages to make an otherwise horribly written game interesting.

[NekoKnight]

Before I start discussing anything, people seem to forget that while Corrin is the major reason for Conquest's shitty story, Azura's terrible decision making also contributes to it. So instead of comparing Micaiah to Corrin, it should really be complaring Micaiah to Corrin and Azura.

On the one hand, I can sort of understand why Nohr Corrin acts the way he does. He is pampered by his servants and coddled immensely by Xander and Camilla. And since he chose Nohr, he doesn't really have to deal with any adversity from their cast since they would have no reason to be suspicious of him, unlike in Hoshido. So it makes sense that he's extremely naive, indecisive and just follows Azura's terrible advice without question. Now, Micaiah is around 25 years old and grew up in much harsher circumstances, so she shouldn't really be making such awful decisions.

On the other hand, despite the fact that Corrin and Azura make dumb decisions, they never have to deal with the consequences of said decisions and the story always portrays them as brilliant, righteous leaders, rarely getting called out on anything. Micaiah however, in addition to getting constantly called out on her bad decision making by most of the cast, has to face the consequences of said decisions. For one, she has to deal with the guilt of killing thousands of people and also gets her ass handed to her on quite a few occasions by Ike and Tibarn.

Oh, I don't spare Azura any criticism for her disastrous handling of the situation, but Kamui all too readily agreed with her insane plan so I still place the blame on him.

One thing I've heard said a lot about Kamui is that he's naive so his poor decision making is understandable. While it would make sense for Kamui to be a terrible leader, nothing in the story indicates this to be an intentional flaw of his character. The game isn't shining a light on him saying "Look at this idiot. This is what happens when a heavily sheltered child is pushed out into the world", rather the story wants to portray him as the hyper-charismatic righteous hero, contrary to what you'd expect of the guy who knows less than Jon Snow. His "failings" in the story aren't "I suck", it's "these situations suck". His naivete and automatic trust in people is praised and defended by other characters rather than condemned like it should be. Perhaps Kamui could be an interesting subversion of the typical shonen hero, but time and time again, Fates is oblivious to it's own flawed storytelling.

I'm sure Phillius will write an essay about this if he hasn't already.

[MCProductions]

See's a great number of people complaining about my third favorite Lord. Has trouble deciding weather I should laugh or cry

While I will admit Conquest!Corn should be called out on his actions a good deal more, to say he never is is just wrong. Hell, Leo straight up calls him a dumbass when Corrin presents a tactical idea to him.

Alas, I've long accepted my role as the holder of unpopular opinions, and this is no different.

[Thane]

See's a great number of people complaining about my third favorite Lord. Has trouble deciding weather I should laugh or cry

While I will admit Conquest!Corn should be called out on his actions a good deal more, to say he never is is just wrong. Hell, Leo straight up calls him a dumbass when Corrin presents a tactical idea to him.

Alas, I've long accepted my role as the holder of unpopular opinions, and this is no different.

Could you remind me when that is and why Leo says what he does? I believe we would've heard that argument a lot more if it were a big thing.

[Sentinel07]

Could you remind me when that is and why Leo says what he does? I believe we would've heard that argument a lot more if it were a big thing.

Pretty sure he's referring to Corrin and Leo's support conversations.

[Troykv]

Micaiah Fan #10

I pretty much agree with the First Post. Micaiah can make mistakes and be called out, Corrin is in a self-inserted fantasy where the MC can't be the wrong one.

And personally I find Micaiah more interesting even if she has less dialogue.

[MCProductions]

Could you remind me when that is and why Leo says what he does? I believe we would've heard that argument a lot more if it were a big thing.

Corrin and Leo's supports.Leo is schooling Corrin on tactics, and Leo calls the plan Corrin comes up with rubbish

Edited May 14, 2016 by MCProductions

[Thane]

Corrin and Leo's supports.Leo is schooling Corrin on tactics, and Leo calls the plan Corrin comes up with rubbish

That is not exclusive to Conquest, nor is it "calling them out".

What it does do, however, is highlighting the fact that Corrin has no business leading armies when there are people vastly more experienced than him.

[maybe]

Corrin and Leo's supports.Leo is schooling Corrin on tactics, and Leo calls the plan Corrin comes up with rubbish

I think people are talking about within the actual story. This support doesn't really add much to Corn's character, since he doesn't even make any real mistake we can actually observe, nor is it even remotely relevant to the story

[MCProductions]

That is not exclusive to Conquest, nor is it "calling them out".

What it does do, however, is highlighting the fact that Corrin has no business leading armies when there are people vastly more experienced than him.

In that case, how about those Hoshidan citizens who curse Corrin's name when the Nohrian army breaches the Hoshidan army in Conquest, and while this doesn't count as much as Azura at the same time tries to cheer Corrin up, she does tell Corrin to feel bad for the choices he's made in Conquest.

Also, Conquest establishes well enough that literally the only reason Corrin is leading the Nohrian army instead of Xander is because Garon wants to make Corrin suffer to sate Ananakos, so I fail to see why this is a problem.

[Book Bro]

In that case, how about those Hoshidan citizens who curse Corrin's name when the Nohrian army breaches the Hoshidan army in Conquest, and while this doesn't count as much as Azura at the same time tries to cheer Corrin up, she does tell Corrin to feel bad for the choices he's made in Conquest.

Also, Conquest establishes well enough that literally the only reason Corrin is leading the Nohrian army instead of Xander is because Garon wants to make Corrin suffer to sate Ananakos, so I fail to see why this is a problem.

But right after those Hoshidans curse at Kamui we get the "they don't know I'm doing this for their own good, I must be strong" excuse. It tries to paint them as the ones in the wrong, because surely if they knew Kamui was invading and murdering them out of kindness, they wouldn't have said those mean things to him.

Azura's support also just stays in the support. We don't see Kamui ever feel bad for what he's done or not done in the story except when he's feeling bad for himself having to obey his evil dad. He even gets over his massive failure at Cheve pretty quick. He never takes responsibility for the shit he causes.

The whole Garon and Anankos and every villain wanting Kamui to suffer is never explained, so I just see it as more Kamui worship by the plot.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Book Bro

[Thane]

In that case, how about those Hoshidan citizens who curse Corrin's name when the Nohrian army breaches the Hoshidan army in Conquest, and while this doesn't count as much as Azura at the same time tries to cheer Corrin up, she does tell Corrin to feel bad for the choices he's made in Conquest.

Also, Conquest establishes well enough that literally the only reason Corrin is leading the Nohrian army instead of Xander is because Garon wants to make Corrin suffer to sate Ananakos, so I fail to see why this is a problem.

Do you mean the nameless civilians who get literally two lines when their conqueror walks through their streets? If that is the closest thing we get to someone calling Corrin out for being a murderous psychopath in Conquest, then this topic is essentially pointless. There is zero emotional weight behind it since it's completely brushed aside and it doesn't even come from a named character. Besides, aren't they painted in a negative light, and Corrin in a good?

When does Azura say that? I thought she kept saying that Corrin SHOULDN'T regret their choices since people would die regardless. Is this something added in the English version?

That last part is an excuse and nothing more. Garon is not all-seeing; hell evidence proves he's incredibly slow on the uptake. No one who isn't directly under the Nohrian army would even consider following a leader like Corrin who has no experience or even a clue as to what they're doing.

[MCProductions]

Do you mean the nameless civilians who get literally two lines when their conqueror walks through their streets? If that is the closest thing we get to someone calling Corrin out for being a murderous psychopath in Conquest, then this topic is essentially pointless. There is zero emotional weight behind it since it's completely brushed aside and it doesn't even come from a named character. Besides, aren't they painted in a negative light, and Corrin in a good?

When does Azura say that? I thought she kept saying that Corrin SHOULDN'T regret their choices since people would die regardless. Is this something added in the English version?

That last part is an excuse and nothing more. Garon is not all-seeing; hell evidence proves he's incredibly slow on the uptake. No one who isn't directly under the Nohrian army would even consider following a leader like Corrin who has no experience or even a clue as to what they're doing.

I literally said in my first post that the game could stand to call him out more, but whatever, my point was simply that the game DOES call him out some. If you disagree with me, that's your prerogative, but it's not going to change my thoughts on the matter.

[Thane]

I literally said in my first post that the game could stand to call him out more, but whatever, my point was simply that the game DOES call him out some. If you disagree with me, that's your prerogative, but it's not going to change my thoughts on the matter.

There's nothing to disagree on; Corrin doesn't get called out by someone who isn't portrayed in a negative light, or who doesn't come to accept their actions as justified.

[MCProductions]

There's nothing to disagree on; Corrin doesn't get called out by someone who isn't portrayed in a negative light, or who doesn't come to accept their actions as justified.

I'd have to disagree with that tbh, the only character I felt was called out as wrong for disagreeing with Corrin was Takumi. The Hoshidan citizens I mentioned earlier are portrayed as innocent victims that are facing the troubles they are because Corrin didn't side with them. They aren't portrayed as wrong, just Corrin has to justify his own actions to himself because everyone would try to justify their actions when they see something horrible they didn't intend to happen happen.

What happened in this thread is why I rarely discuss plot or characters anymore tbh, because any detail or plot point or hell minor action can and will be interpreted differently by different people, and there is no reason for either side to change their thoughts on the subject, because people in general, especially me, are stubborn assholes. Case in point, I like Conquest Corrin and feel he is a very enjoyable protagonist because of his flaws but most people dislike him. No one is wrong here, yet everyone is wrong here. Why, because opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one, and they all stink.

[NekoKnight]

When does Azura say that? I thought she kept saying that Corrin SHOULDN'T regret their choices since people would die regardless. Is this something added in the English version?

She tells him in their Conquest support that he should feel bad about supporting the invasion. She's not actually criticizing him though, she's basically saying that feeling bad about hurting people is natural and that it would be wrong if he didn't feel guilt.

It's honestly a pretty decent support, and it would be a meaningful way to confront Kamui's guilt...if only Kamui hadn't brought the misfortune on himself by choosing to support Garon.

Edited May 14, 2016 by NekoKnight