Micaiah vs. Nohr Corrin (spoilers)

[Thane]

I'd have to disagree with that tbh, the only character I felt was called out as wrong for disagreeing with Corrin was Takumi. The Hoshidan citizens I mentioned earlier are portrayed as innocent victims that are facing the troubles they are because Corrin didn't side with them. They aren't portrayed as wrong, just Corrin has to justify his own actions to himself because everyone would try to justify their actions when they see something horrible they didn't intend to happen happen.

What happened in this thread is why I rarely discuss plot or characters anymore tbh, because any detail or plot point or hell minor action can and will be interpreted differently by different people, and there is no reason for either side to change their thoughts on the subject, because people in general, especially me, are stubborn assholes. Case in point, I like Conquest Corrin and feel he is a very enjoyable protagonist because of his flaws but most people dislike him. No one is wrong here, yet everyone is wrong here. Why, because opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one, and they all stink.

Doesn't Hinoka outright say she was wrong to distrust Corrin, or does she just say "I knew you were on our side"? Ryouma also gives way to Corrin, acting only on their word, and then all is forgiven in anime limbo.

That's exactly why it's interesting to discuss stories; I can't imagine how boring forums would be if everyone just agreed.

What do you like in Conquest Corrin? What flaws do you find appealing?

She tells him in their Conquest support that he should feel bad about supporting the invasion. She's not actually criticizing him though, she's basically saying that feeling bad about hurting people is natural and that it would be wrong if he didn't feel guilt.

It's honestly a pretty decent support, and it would be a meaningful way to confront Kamui's guilt...if only Kamui hadn't brought the misfortune on himself by choosing to support Garon.

Ah, another support then, although I guess it's slightly more relevant since it changes depending on the path, but it's still optional content and not in the main story, unless I misunderstood you.

[MCProductions]

Doesn't Hinoka outright say she was wrong to distrust Corrin, or does she just say "I knew you were on our side"? Ryouma also gives way to Corrin, acting only on their word, and then all is forgiven in anime limbo.

That's exactly why it's interesting to discuss stories; I can't imagine how boring forums would be if everyone just agreed.

What do you like in Conquest Corrin? What flaws do you find appealing?

Ah, another support then, although I guess it's slightly more relevant since it changes depending on the path, but it's still optional content and not in the main story, unless I misunderstood you.

Yes, it's a support.

I namely like Conquest!Corrin because he actually questions the choices he makes, unlike other FE protagonists I've played or hell the other two Corrins. It made him feel very likable to me. What made me a Conquest!Corn fanboy tho was that speech he makes to Iago and Hans at the end of Conquest. Apparently, it was changed in the localization, but I'm not sure about that I loved that speech so much Corrin became one of my favorite FE characters as a result.

While I don't care for Azura that much, her Conquest exclusive support with Corrin is also awesome. Finally, I found it neat having a Marth style personality wise character doing the shit Corrin does in Conquest.

That, and I can make him a dead ringer for Big Boss from MGS

[RedEyedDrake]

@Book Bro:

Consider the knowledge of Corrin's origin that Lilith displays in Hidden Truths. This makes it obvious that, at least after he/she got taken to Nohr, Anankos himself is perfectly aware of Corrin's origins. Now consider what Anankos was shown to be able to do to people with sufficiently deep negative emotions in their hearts (Takumi and Gunter). Now do you get why Anankos is so interested in having "Garon" make Corrin suffer?

[Thane]

I namely like Conquest!Corrin because he actually questions the choices he makes, unlike other FE protagonists I've played or hell the other two Corrins. It made him feel very likable to me. What made me a Conquest!Corn fanboy tho was that speech he makes to Iago and Hans at the end of Conquest. Apparently, it was changed in the localization, but I'm not sure about that I loved that speech so much Corrin became one of my favorite FE characters as a result.

The guy went back to a a nation ruled by someone who tried having them killed twice, after being dragged into an incident orchestrated by their fake father which killed their mother, and they just regained memories of said fake brutally murdering his real father - this is after the nation they decide to return to attacks a peaceful country out of nowhere.

If they didn't question their choices, I would've been very confused. Unless, of course, they actually did something ballsy and just had Corrin flat out admit that they did it for purely selfish reasons, but no, they're still portrayed as a paragon of justice.

Wait, you liked that super forced speech in which you kill the henchmen without any personality who should've died much, much earlier? Why? I rolled my eyes when I read that.

[NekoKnight]

@Book Bro:

Consider the knowledge of Corrin's origin that Lilith displays in Hidden Truths. This makes it obvious that, at least after he/she got taken to Nohr, Anankos himself is perfectly aware of Corrin's origins. Now consider what Anankos was shown to be able to do to people with sufficiently deep negative emotions in their hearts (Takumi and Gunter). Now do you get why Anankos is so interested in having "Garon" make Corrin suffer?

So his end goal was to possess Kamui? To what end?

If he knew who exactly Kamui was, why didn't he kill Kamui earlier?

[MCProductions]

The guy went back to a a nation ruled by someone who tried having them killed twice, after being dragged into an incident orchestrated by their fake father which killed their mother, and they just regained memories of said fake brutally murdering his real father - this is after the nation they decide to return to attacks a peaceful country out of nowhere.

If they didn't question their choices, I would've been very confused. Unless, of course, they actually did something ballsy and just had Corrin flat out admit that they did it for purely selfish reasons, but no, they're still portrayed as a paragon of justice.

Wait, you liked that super forced speech in which you kill the henchmen without any personality who should've died much, much earlier? Why? I rolled my eyes when I read that.

That's why I mentioned it was changed in the localized version. From what I've read of the Japanese script, the speech really sucked in that version.

Alas, regardless of the correct point that it would of been very confusing for him to not question his choices, it still felt very refreshing to me for an FE protagonist to question his/her decisions.

[RedEyedDrake]

@Neko:

No. His end goal is to have the two biggest kingdoms of the continent destroy each other and any other nations that might end up getting caught up in the crossfire. Possessing Corrin is more of a very alluring bonus.

He didn't kill Corrin right away because Corrin is his human self's direct descendant. Meaning that if he were to possess Corrin he will have an ideal vessel for his spirit to inhabit whenever he'd want to personally operate outside of Valla because, if nothing else, Anankos would certainly like to be able to romp around in a dragon's form in the outside world. Corrin is the most heavily dragonblooded human of the modern age in Fates, after all.

...Also, I just realized that this means that both Corrin and Anankos are motivated by the same thing, in a way. They'd both like to have the freedom to "visit the outside world".

Edited May 14, 2016 by RedEyedDrake

[Thane]

That's why I mentioned it was changed in the localized version. From what I've read of the Japanese script, the speech really sucked in that version.

Alas, regardless of the correct point that it would of been very confusing for him to not question his choices, it still felt very refreshing to me for an FE protagonist to question his/her decisions.

I've read it in English and it was horribly written, but to each their own.

I suppose we really value different things in main characters. Questioning oneself is one thing, but to actively make the worst choices at any given time and still get portrayed as being in the right is much more than I can handle.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Thane

[BruceLee]

I dislike them both, but i dislike Corrin more.

Edited May 14, 2016 by BruceLee

[Azure Sen]

That's why I mentioned it was changed in the localized version. From what I've read of the Japanese script, the speech really sucked in that version.

I mean, to be honest, the English version still a really generic "you wanted me to be more like you?" speech that I've seen who knows how many times outside of FE, and it rings hollow given how much Nohrrin's been complicit in so much of Iago and Hans' wrongdoing through inaction and Nohrrin's own wrongdoing.

Alas, regardless of the correct point that it would of been very confusing for him to not question his choices, it still felt very refreshing to me for an FE protagonist to question his/her decisions.

Except most FE lords do that? I mean, Corrin's not even the first to do so because they're doing something that is blatantly wrong instead of them having self-confidence issues due to youth and inexperience, but a lord doubting themselves and their decision making is not an uncommon or revolutionary thing even in FE. Heck, even Hector for all of his confidence and bravado, goes through this in FE7, especially in his mode.

I literally said in my first post that the game could stand to call him out more, but whatever, my point was simply that the game DOES call him out some. If you disagree with me, that's your prerogative, but it's not going to change my thoughts on the matter.

Two supports (one of which isn't even calling him out, and the other is not-so-subtly implied to be driven by Leo's jealousy) and a scene which is immediately contradicted by the scene after (and by the fact that they're blaming her specifically for the plaza explosion and Mikoto's death, which they're wrong about) doesn't really mean much when the narrative spends so much time making it clear that no, Nohrrin is flawless saint doing what's best for everyone and no one understands all the personal suffering she has to go through. That's the underlying problem; even when the game does muster the brief courage to criticize Nohrrin's actions, the criticism is so mild (unless it's coming from Takumi, Garon, Iago or Hans, in which case we're supposed to think they're wrong on principle) and is so quickly dismissed that it hardly counts as criticism at all.

Edited May 14, 2016 by AzureSen

[Sunwoo]

Like I'd stated before, Kamui's self-centeredness was always going to be a big turn-off for me. I'm not going to sympathize with the person that paints themselves as a victim over the innocent people they're helping to slay because "it's for those people's own good" and they're doing bad things they don't wanna for the good of the world. Micaiah taking responsibility for her actions is at least something I can appreciate now. The narrative bends itself around to make sure that Kamui stays pure, while the narrative does not make any judgment on Micaiah and lets you make your own decision on her without shoving its agenda down your throat.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

I feel a lot of Corrin's and the other characters' problems come from the narrative itself taking all choice out of the matter. It's so obsessed with crapping on Nohr and portraying it as the Land of Cartoon Villainy, while also portraying Hoshido as pure, saintly and infallible, that there are very few options for Conquest that don't feel contrived. Conquest does not choose any of these meager options and instead treats Corrin like a plot device to push along its railroading. Corrin questions Garon's morality plenty of times and even meets up with two separate rebel cells. This was a golden opportunity to build up a power base for a rebellion. However, the Ice Tribe falls off the face of the earth and is never mentioned again, while the Cheve rebels are immediately mass murdered in order to keep the plot railroaded. Azura then presents an out in C15, which is then immediately misused and wasted by the game in order to railroad the plot. Finally, Leo lectures Corrin on being more conniving and subtle in C14, which seems to maybe be coming to fruition in C16 for potential plotting behind Garon's back, but... the story railroads again. So Corrin is trying to resist and does have obvious opportunity to change things, but the game cuts it off because the plot's gotta be a conquest, no matter how much it needs to completely ignore what its characters are trying to do to do so.

It's basically like watching a terrible GM refuse to stop railroading and the players being forced to roll with it.

[The DanMan]

Do you mean the nameless civilians who get literally two lines when their conqueror walks through their streets? If that is the closest thing we get to someone calling Corrin out for being a murderous psychopath in Conquest, then this topic is essentially pointless. There is zero emotional weight behind it since it's completely brushed aside and it doesn't even come from a named character. Besides, aren't they painted in a negative light, and Corrin in a good?

When does Azura say that? I thought she kept saying that Corrin SHOULDN'T regret their choices since people would die regardless. Is this something added in the English version?

That last part is an excuse and nothing more. Garon is not all-seeing; hell evidence proves he's incredibly slow on the uptake. No one who isn't directly under the Nohrian army would even consider following a leader like Corrin who has no experience or even a clue as to what they're doing.

What?

Seriously, what?

I don't see how on earth Corrin is a psychopath. They don't disregard emotion or utterly lack empathy; they were appalled by the incidents at Cheve and the Hoshidan border fort. A lack of emotional empathy isn't what keeps them going; it's the belief that what they're doing is the best realistic chance at ending the conflict (which, considering how the game railroaded them down such a damn specific route, is pretty much true).

Nearly everybody agrees that the game's writing is terrible; pulling random accusations out of nowhere doesn't do anything for your argument, and makes those who disagree with you even less likely to listen to you.

I'm really starting to get tired of people attacking characters when it's the writing at large that's the issue. My issues don't lie with Corrin (indeed, like everything else in the synopsis, they have a lot of potential); my issues are with how the game relentlessly panders to them and tries to set up a larger-scale villain for a completionist's route.

[RedEyedDrake]

@Kuroi:

I heard the idea of organizing an internal rebellion against Garon brought up quite a few times before but I can't help but wonder every time. Maybe having a prince of the kingdom start a civil war in the middle of a war with a different kingdom is not the best idea?

[Thane]

What?

Seriously, what?

I don't see how on earth Corrin is a psychopath. They don't disregard emotion or utterly lack empathy; they were appalled by the incidents at Cheve and the Hoshidan border fort. A lack of emotional empathy isn't what keeps them going; it's the belief that what they're doing is the best realistic chance at ending the conflict (which, considering how the game railroaded them down such a damn specific route, is pretty much true).

Nearly everybody agrees that the game's writing is terrible; pulling random accusations out of nowhere doesn't do anything for your argument, and makes those who disagree with you even less likely to listen to you.

I'm really starting to get tired of people attacking characters when it's the writing at large that's the issue. My issues don't lie with Corrin (indeed, like everything else in the synopsis, they have a lot of potential); my issues are with how the game relentlessly panders to them and tries to set up a larger-scale villain for a completionist's route.

I saw you reading the thread and knew you'd leave a reply for me; you tend to ignore everyone else and just write something to me. Honestly you make me blush what with all the special attention you give me.

Also, I use the word psychopath as a hyperbole; if you want to argue semantics, then sure, Corrin might not fulfill all of the criteria for being a psychopath (they do fulfill some, however: "Dishibition. Poor impulse control including problems with planning and foresight, lacking affect and urge control, demand for immediate gratification, and poor behavioral restraints. That's, of course, just according to one of many, many different takes on what psychopathy is." - what I'm getting at, however, is that Corrin willingly goes back to a nation ruled by a man who faked being his father, tried having him killed twice, murdered his father in cold blood and is preparing an invasion of an innocent country. Corrin plays along with this in the stupidest way possible and is directly responsible for a frightening amount of people dying.

Of course Corrin had potential; the premise is great. The writing is awful in general and not just when it comes to Corrin. However, on this thread specifically created to discuss the Conquest version of that character and how it compares to Micaiah, then that's what will get brought up.

[The DanMan]

I saw you reading the thread and knew you'd leave a reply for me; you tend to ignore everyone else and just write something to me. Honestly you make me blush what with all the special attention you give me.

Also, I use the word psychopath as a hyperbole; if you want to argue semantics, then sure, Corrin might not fulfill all of the criteria for being a psychopath (they do fulfill some, however: "Dishibition. Poor impulse control including problems with planning and foresight, lacking affect and urge control, demand for immediate gratification, and poor behavioral restraints. That's, of course, just according to one of many, many different takes on what psychopathy is." - what I'm getting at, however, is that Corrin willingly goes back to a nation ruled by a man who faked being his father, tried having him killed twice, murdered his father in cold blood and is preparing an invasion of an innocent country. Corrin plays along with this in the stupidest way possible and is directly responsible for a frightening amount of people dying.

Of course Corrin had potential; the premise is great. The writing is awful in general and not just when it comes to Corrin. However, on this thread specifically created to discuss the Conquest version of that character and how it compares to Micaiah, then that's what will get brought up.

It's nothing personal; it's just that you're very vocal in your criticism of the game and that whenever I look at threads involving Fates' plot or a similar topic you're generally one of the most recent posters, with some exaggeration or hyperbole that I call out as such. That's really all I'm getting at; I don't like hyperbole and excessive emotional expression towards either end of the spectrum.

[Thane]

It's nothing personal; it's just that you're very vocal in your criticism of the game and that whenever I look at threads involving Fates' plot or a similar topic you're generally one of the most recent posters, with some exaggeration or hyperbole that I call out as such. That's really all I'm getting at; I don't like hyperbole and excessive emotional expression towards either end of the spectrum.

How very interesting.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

@Kuroi:

I heard the idea of organizing an internal rebellion against Garon brought up quite a few times before but I can't help but wonder every time. Maybe having a prince of the kingdom start a civil war in the middle of a war with a different kingdom is not the best idea?

Perhaps not, but as I said, the way the narrative biases itself, there's very few viable options left. Call it the lesser of two evils.

[Namarid]

I didn't think the Corrin speech was that bad, in fact I quite liked it...the JPN version at least. He's a lot calmer in this version and I get the feeling that at this point his naivety is starting to disappear. Like a flip has finally been switched.

The Eng version I can't take seriously. There's just too much aggression for my liking. Its clear that he feels very strongly about this and has for a long time, but his inaction earlier on in the story just makes him look like a coward.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is JPN corrin is finally mentally prepared to take out Hans and Iago, it shows slight character development which is appreciated. Eng corrin was always prepared but was too much of a bitch to do anything.

[cgRIPPER]

It's really really hard for me to take anything relating to Corrin (or Robin for that matter) seriously. IntSys insisted on painting the countries of the game in light and dark so that people wouldn't feel bad for choosing the light. Then they go out of their way to coddle the player who chose the dark route. They're afraid of making their players feel like they "made the wrong choice" and that mindset makes it impossible to tell a good story.

@anyone saying that Corrin doesn't deserve the blame because of his upbringing:

That's irrelevant. That is an irreversible part of his character (and there isn't even much of that). Criminals who had terrible upbringings that scarred them beyond repair are treated exactly the same as criminals that did something just because they felt like it. Granted that Corrin isn't a criminal, but the point is that someone's upbringing doesn't absolve them of responsibility.

[eclipse]

There's a difference between not having something, and having something but choosing not to use it. Otherwise, Ike is a racist for calling the laguz "sub-humans" the minute he saw them.

Unfortunately, Corrin didn't get a chance to grow in the same way Ike did (by Ranulf telling Ike "WTF are you doing").

[Thane]

There's a difference between not having something, and having something but choosing not to use it. Otherwise, Ike is a racist for calling the laguz "sub-humans" the minute he saw them.

Unfortunately, Corrin didn't get a chance to grow in the same way Ike did (by Ranulf telling Ike "WTF are you doing").

Fire Emblem needs more Ranulfs; that guy was one of the best parts of the Tellius series.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Fire Emblem needs more Ranulfs; that guy was one of the best parts of the Tellius series.

then we'd have more "why did they handle the black knight's reveal like they did, thanks ranulfobama" nevermind that the only other time for that reveal would've been the showdown which would've looked like more of an asspull and ranulf was the only guy that has legibly fought the two to make the connection.

but then again that requires the general fandom to stop also thinking of micaiah as a mary sue while worshipping ike at the same time and we all know thats not going to happen.

prime example, we know who's might come into this thread like clockwork to prove me right.

Edited May 14, 2016 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[B.Leu]

Long story short, Micky can dirty her hands, Normui can't. Micaiah can do things, Kamui can't and won't. The writing somewhat aknowledge Micaiah's action and inaction, not for Kamui, though Kamui IS a 'victim' of the writing of his own game, but that's another story

Micaiah win imo, not by far of course. Can't believe I'm defending her. Oh, the heresy...

Edited May 14, 2016 by B.Leu

[UNLEASH IT]

then we'd have more "why did they handle the black knight's reveal like they did, thanks ranulfobama" nevermind that the only other time for that reveal would've been the showdown which would've looked like more of an asspull and ranulf was the only guy that has legibly fought the two to make the connection.

but then again that requires the general fandom to stop also thinking of micaiah as a mary sue while worshipping ike at the same time and we all know thats not going to happen.

prime example, we know who's might come into this thread like clockwork to prove me right.

Nostalgia tends to blind people to the older games' faults. I've seen people constantly complain about the lack of character depth in Fates' and Awakening's respective casts, but when I look back at the characters from older games, I don't really see much of a change. In every game, there are some good characters and some shitty ones .