Smash 4, Character Discussion Revised (#35 Pikachu)

[euklyd]

Corrin has been doing better than Ike lately afaik.

And Ryuga has largely switched from Ike to Corrin, and Ryo is dual-maining them.

Also Cloud would still be pretty different, since Ike has a lot of good grab combos, while Cloud is faster and has better keep-away. Ike also has better recovery. If they had the same lag, Ike would be superior imo.

[Refa]

Also Cloud would still be pretty different, since Ike has a lot of good grab combos, while Cloud is faster and has better keep-away. Ike also has better recovery. If they had the same lag, Ike would be superior imo.

Yeah, this is what I was alluding too. Cloud's keep away wouldn't even be that much better if he had the same lag, as well.

[euklyd]

It'd at least be faster on startup, and I think better range?

[Jedi]

Alrighty Cloud is donezo for now, good set of discussion, those of you who want to finish up with it can, if you haven't had a chance to reply yet.

(Image from Kurogane)

General Frame Data and other Stats

Corrin, the protagonist of Fire Emblem Fates is here, they excel with spectacular range, solid aerials, some small combos, a very interesting set of specials, among other things, Corrin has been considered quite possibly the best FE contending character since their release alongside Bayonetta, Although with Marth, Ike, and some Robins getting some key victories still, its not quite in stone yet.

Corrin has a similar issue to Cloud in that fact that they have no grab game to speak of, but they unlike Cloud, have a decent Kill throw, Corrin's main strength is their dragonic moves, along with their long reach, and fairly damaging attacks.

General opinions on the Corn field?

[Refa]

It'd at least be faster on startup, and I think better range?

Yeah, I agree that it'd be better, just not like...significantly.

[Ken Masters]

Ewwwwgh, Dragon Marth,

I want to say I enjoy playing it, but damn do I feel like an asshole impaling people on the ground. It's a fun character with a monster counter game, and some sick mixups... but that's about it to me. I can't enjoy this character :/

[Refa]

[8:31:02 PM] Refakitty³: corn has a lot of followups yeah

[8:31:16 PM] Refakitty³: although i think they're like

[8:31:25 PM] Refakitty³: off of tilts, fair, and neutral b?

[8:31:53 PM] Refakitty³: corn has two kill throws btdubs

[8:32:03 PM] Refakitty³: downthrow is better at the edge and upthrow is better anywhere else

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but yeah. I like playing as her, AND I feel like she's the best FE character at this point.

[Comet]

side b tipper is frame 4. up throw has much more kbg, down throw has much more bkb. other than that, he has a sword.

[Batter the Beast]

From one defensive swordie to the next, huh?

Well let's get some facts straight about Corn. Corn was first domesticated by the Mexicans in prehistoric times, though its known as maize in some countries. Corn is also very delicious, either in chip form, popped form or straight from the cob.

I'm not sure why I started to talk about Corn, this is a topic about Corrin. So, lets get some facts about Corrin out of the way. Male Corrin is superior to female Corrin, at least in Smash. Let's compare winquotes for starters. "H-I WIN" is way better than the "Good" that female Corrin says, despite both being pretty dank Zelda CD-I memes.

/shitpost

Okay in all seriousness, Corrin is a zoning/spacing character that sorta sucks in melee range cause his options aren't quick, though a frame 5 jab is very nice for a sword guy. Corrin's biggest strength is in his aerials, since none of his tilts are that safe, though dtilt and uptilt can lead to some short combos. Nair covers a good area all around Corrin and lasts a decent amount of time. Hitting with the front hit of nair can lead into fair strings, while hitting with the backwards hit can lead into bair. This move is Corrin's best overall aerial in the neutral, since it covers a lot of space around him, is good for airdodge reads because of how long it lasts, and has low enough knockback to combo into a bunch of stuff. Fair can also be used to start combos, since it autocancels out of a shorthop. Rising Fair can combo into double jump tip Side B at some %s, though it's really situational. Both nair and fair are safe on landing if they are spaced well. If he lands next to his opponent with these moves, he can be punished with a grab. Still, both of these moves are Corrin's best options while landing. Bair is completely ridiculous. It is one of the longest reaching bairs this side of Shulk, and pushes Corrin forwards, making it both good for helping him recover, as well as being an overall good option to throw out in neutral since the push makes it hard to punish Corrin. Corrin players need to learn how to RAR bair since bair is just that good. Smart players will push a Corrin spamming bair into the corner, so keep that in mind and mix it up. Upair is good for both juggling and KOing due to it's sheer range. For some reason this lazy looking move is good for KOing, and it's pretty amazing for catching airdodges. Upair is also how a lot of Corrin combos end since it knocks opponents far away and will do the most damage overall out of the available moves he can end with. Upair covers the entirety of the Battlefield and DL64 platforms, so it's a really good option to cover platform landings. Dair is alright to throw out if Corrin is high enough in the air so it won't have endlag, since dair is difficult to challenge for most characters. Landing with dair is generally a bad idea like most stall-then-fall moves. It's also a bad idea to use it offstage unless the stage has a huge wall like Duck Hunt where Corrin can Side B the stage and jump -> up B back on. Footstool dair is a pretty good option at low %s, and will actually lead into a Side B pin. Offstage dair is also a good idea if you want to go for swag

Corrin's ground game is pretty alright too. At low%s, his tilts can generally combo into each other, like ftilt into dtilt into uptilt for starters. At higher %s, nair and fair are generally better to start combos with. Corrin's downsmash is interesting. The front hit does the same damage all around but the backwards hitbox has a tipper, a very strong one at that. Dsmash is generally used to punish rolls or up B landings if the opponent is good at mixing up their directions. Upsmash has a small hitbox but the tip hits through most platforms, meaning that it can be a surprise option to punish bad platform landings since it KOs surprisngly early. Fsmash has so many uses in comparison to his other smashes. It has a butt-ton of range and can be aimed up or down. It also has a strong tipper. Pivot fsmash is a pretty good tool since it's hard to punish at maximum range. Fsmash can be aimed down to try to punish the 2 frames of vulnerability on ledge grab. Fsmash can be charged to punish neutral get up, jump get up or bad landings. Do note that charging fsmash fully if the opponent is being hit by his sword is a bad idea since it won't true combo into the lance hit or they can SDI out of it. Corrin has two killthrows in upthrow and downthrow, but has no followups off throws, so they should be used to either kill, do damage, or get better positioning. I generally go for positioning outside of kill %s as Corrin does a lot with stage control.

Corrin's up B has a lot of vertical distance but very little horizontal distance, so it's hard to come back from getting footstooled or meteored. However, it is intangible for 8 frames before the startup on frame 18 and has a huge hitbox, meaning that it's difficult to intercept for most characters. It can also KO off the top, but this is a risky option since Corrin is helpless after up B. Down B is a ridiculously strong counter, even after the nerfs. Corrin's neutral B is a very good tool. It doubles as a stun and a strong KO move. The shot and bite can be charged separately. In most cases, a landed shot will lead into a tip Side B or a RAR bair, which will kill at mid-high %s. Yes, even an uncharged shot can lead into tip Side B. The bite does a lot of damage, and if fully charged, will KO pretty early. No matter the charge on the shot, if it hits the opponent in bite range, a fully charged bite is guaranteed. This makes it good for punishing hard aerial reads, like bad landings or bad airdodges. Side B honestly deserves a wall of text on it's own, but I'll make due here. The attack itself has a tip hitbox, which is extremely strong and comes out pretty fast. This is Corrin's strongest punish against whiffed smashes, as he can just short up Side B most smash attempts. He can also full hop Side B tip and either jump away or counter to maintain his safe position. Full hop Side B to Neutral B can also break shields, so keep it in mind against a defensive opponent. The kick after the pin is a decent KO option, and kicking away from the opponent is generally difficult to punish unless the opponent has a fast runspeed like Fox or Mewtwo. Pinning an opponent is also a good quick punish if a tip Side B won't come out fast enough. Oddly enough, on some platforms like BF's low platforms, Corrin can simultaneously tip an opponent with Side B and plant on the platform. This move is weird, but one of Corrin's bread and butters. Oh yeah tip Side B can also punish the 2 frames of vulnerability on ledge grab. Man this move is good.

Now let's talk about stages. Corrin loves platforms, since his upair covers the whole platforms and he can do the Side B shenanigans mentioned above. Battlefield and DL64 sound like go-tos because of this, but Corrin doesn't like getting comboed and doesn't really gain much in terms of combo potential from these stages. So how about FD? Corrin doesn't have a lot of problems landing, and has a projectile to toss out against other projectile users, though Neutral B can be beaten out by a Megaman pellet, no matter the charge. Smashville and Town & City are also pretty good for Corrin, especially since Corrin has decent options to KO off the top. Lylat is my goto stage for Corrin, since he gets a lot of mobility from the platforms while not getting comboed too badly because of them, and the tilting doesn't really screw up his recovery too much. He can also Side B the side of Duck Hunt easily so that gets a mention. In terms of stage picking, I generally counterpick my opponent as opposed to picking what works best for me when I play Corrin.

So, Corrin has a bunch of good disjoints, kill confirms, and combo tools, and doesn't do poorly on any stage. Sounds like a top tier right? Well, his movespeed is bad. Really bad. As in 12th in the game bad, counting Miis, and his airspeed isn't much better. He also doesn't have a quick combo breaker, and the top tiers love their combos. Despite these shortcomings, Corrin has a lot of tools at his disposal to get quick KOs and can wall his opponent out with his quick and low lag disjoints as well as his scary Neutral and Side B. Corrin is a solid character that is easy to pick up, but takes a while to master. I'd recommend him for anyone who likes melee Marth or wants someone who does well against smash spamming Mario players hnnnnng

[Jedi]

Excellent summary Batter. Thank you for taking the time to post it.

What Gender is Corrin again?

[Raguna]

Huh can't really add much of anything Corrin considering just how in depth our cool fella went into it. His post does remind me how biased the Smash community is to the female version of the same character. I kinda get psyched out when I'm obviously seeing a Male Robin getting called a she, same applies to Corrin but not Villager oddly enough since he tends to be kept Male. Maybe because top three is dominated by female character? I don't know, just a small peeve.

Eh, guess that was my input in how meta sees Corrin I suppose. Really Batter, great work.

[Jedi]

Huh can't really add much of anything Corrin considering just how in depth our cool fella went into it. His post does remind me how biased the Smash community is to the female version of the same character. I kinda get psyched out when I'm obviously seeing a Male Robin getting called a she, same applies to Corrin but not Villager oddly enough since he tends to be kept Male. Maybe because top three is dominated by female character? I don't know, just a small peeve.

Eh, guess that was my input in how meta sees Corrin I suppose. Really Batter, great work.

I tend to stick with "They" haha, I'm one of those few people who actually prefers Male Corrin, but I can see the appeal of FemCorn.

[Zera]

I use the gender nouns of whoever appears by default on the character select screen, so -

- Robin is male.

- Villager is male.

- Wii Fit Trainer is female.

Is (Corn > Corrin) true?

[shadowofchaos]

But Jedi, their name starts with a K.

Kamui's F smash "chainsaw" is stupid good for covering lege getup options. It can cover a good 5/6 of them when charging it backwards from the edge of the stage.

A good few of them when spacing the neutral B on the ledge.

Like that Neutral B is probably one of the most annoying specials in the game.

Because I'm so spoiled from Rufure/Robin's recovery, in which if you tech something, you will MOST LIKELY recover...

This was a rare moment.

Kamui's recovery sucks unless the ledge is DIRECTLY above their head.

That goes into the usage of dair, where you will be able to use it as a drag down ledge guarding option...

But most times you will HAVE to space the jump and perform a perfect vertical recovery.

Unless there's a wall to latch on to with side B.

Edited June 3, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Batter the Beast]

I tend to stick with "They" haha

Same tbh but I saw everyone use female pronouns so I thought I'd balance it a bit. With how massive my wall of text is I probably balanced it out NP.

That goes into the usage of dair, where you will be able to use it as a drag down ledge guarding option...But most times you will HAVE to space the jump and perform a perfect vertical recovery.Unless there's a wall to latch on to with side B.

Also if the opponent has a good enough vertical recovery like Fax they can get back up after the suicide dive. Still worth the attempt for the swag Edited June 3, 2016 by Batter the Beast

[Jedi]

But Jedi, their name starts with a K.

Haha, I had a feeling you'd mention this. If I went by Japanese names, we wouldn't have done Charizard already either! Dark Pit's turn would have come up super early too/

Nice vids btw. Do you still prefer using Robin?

Edited June 3, 2016 by Jedi

[shadowofchaos]

Nice vids btw. Do you still prefer using Robin?

Definitely prefer using Reflet Robin. They fit more of my style with the stylish unexpected crap with tomes and swords. While I feel Kamui is more "direct".

I vastly prefer Nosferatu to a counter, as I'm the one getting read on counters, not the other way around with the tomes.

With Nosferatu, a single read with it is a game changer. Whether to increase momentum and your advantage (as much as getting back a single stock) to turning the match around from your stock/damage deficit.

It's rare, but while that 30 seconds tome respawn is a long time... getting 6 nosferatu uses is literally an extra stock. I prefer that to BS counters.

Specifically this BS counter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=KjTnLnDN3i0

Edited June 3, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[euklyd]

that meta knight also simply made an exceptionally poor choice

ganon could've punished just as hard with warlock punch

edit: tbh I can barely get annoyed about that because it's such a silly way to go

Edited June 3, 2016 by Euklyd

[shadowofchaos]

Also if the opponent has a good enough vertical recovery like Fax they can get back up after the suicide dive. Still worth the attempt for the swag

Kamui's is such a freakishly weird dair. There are times when it actually does *METEOR*.

4/5 times, it's when it gets interrupted in a trade hit. The other 1/5 is a weird timing when the move ends.

Edited June 3, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[The DanMan]

Kamui's is such a freakishly weird dair. There are times when it actually does *METEOR*.

4/5 times, it's when it gets interrupted in a trade hit. The other 1/5 is a weird timing when the move ends.

I've actually had it consistently meteor for me; if I land most of the hits, the last one is always a meteor.

Of course, in actually PvP this is highly impractical... .

[Dotty]

I don't consider myself competent with them yet but it's worth mentioning that the knockback on their bite is at it's highest before it fully charges.

[Truthblade]

I don't consider myself competent with them yet but it's worth mentioning that the knockback on their bite is at it's highest before it fully charges.

Oh wow...does that go for the damage as well?

[Jedi]

Dotty can still answer that but we are moving on to the next character now (We are gonna cover Dark Pit along with Pit so we'll wait on that one)

(Image from Kurogane)

Frame Data and other things

HOO-HAH, Diddy Kong is here, and boy did he come with a vengeance, arguably has the best neutral game in the entire roster, along with a very good moveset that is both fast, safe and efficient, having several combos, acouple projectiles, a fairly decent recovery, a funky command grab along with an already solid grab game, and much more, Diddy has proven time and time again he's one of the best characters in the game, and this is after SEVERAL nerfs!

Opinions on Diddy?

Edited June 5, 2016 by Jedi

[euklyd]

diddy absolutely blows, he's so bad that he has a 5:95 matchup vs every character in the game, including himself in the ditto

while I didn't believe it at first I have spoken to many top diddee konga players across the nation in mainly northcal california and they have all, confirmed this surprising fact

I see no further reason to have any rationale to doubt such top players

Edited June 5, 2016 by Euklyd

[Jedi]

I remember seeing that all over Smashboards Euk lol. @Spoiler.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Jedi