Smash 4, Character Discussion Revised (#35 Pikachu)

[Jedi]

Its time for a bump and a new challenger

Frame Data and Stuff

(Image from Kurogane)

Falco, who really wants to be an upclose and personal fighter, but lacks a significant way to get in, he has some pretty good fast attacks, but unfortunately his mobility is lackluster, although he is packing some of the best jumps in the game, his recovery is also pretty exploitable, his smash attacks and tilts are really fast, his grab game is pretty decent, his bair is amazing, and his aerials pack a decent punch.

But his laser losing short hop canceling and other things, stop his approach cold, he struggles to get in, espcially against disjoints.

SO whats your opinions on the MASTER OF BREAD?

[Aura Wolf]

He's probably the second best character in the game

Flacko has trouble approaching, as his safest offensive options can be punished easily, and his mobility is on the lower end, compared to the rest of the cast (46th fastest air speed, and 43rd fastest running speed). He can be punished pretty hard, as he lacks a solid string breaking move like Mario's nair, is a fast faller, and is pretty light. Getting back on stage without his double jump can be challenging because of his linear side-b and slow starting up-b (not saying that it is impossible to mix up his recovering, however)

However, Falco's close quarters game is solid once he gets in. He can string moves together fairly well, and he has an alright edgeguarding game. Falco punishes can be pretty devastating. No bias.

[spoiler=Ground Moves]

Jab

Jab 1 is Frame 2, which is pretty great. He has a few options he can mix up after landing Jab 1:

- Jab 2 -> Rapid Jab. The opponent can SDI out of it, but it's very good for punishing opponents that think you're gonna pick one of the other options

- Dtilt (can lead to a bair at ~70% and Jab -> Dtilt can kill at much higher percents)

- Grab

- Usmash (probably the worst option, but can work if the opponent has a weak shield AND you read a shield reaction)

Ftilt

A frame 6 move that might be safe on shield if done at maximum range. Can be a followup to bair at low percents (not a true conversion afaik), and the low angled ftilt locks at low percents.

Dtilt

This frame 7 move is also safer on shield than his other options, and is probably his best tilt. At very low percents, this can lead to a grab; at high percents, this can kill, but due it being so GOOD, it will probably be stale by that point.

Utilt

I feel like I forget about this move a lot. Frame 5, can kill a little later than dtilt. Short hop uair is better for starting strings.

Dash Attack

Frames 8. Has an active hitbox until frame 18 (Weaker hitbox from 12-18). Pretty standard dash attack, especially considering I forgot about it. Can be a follow up from a dthrow. Late dash attack can link into another dash attack at low percents.

Fsmash

Frame 17. Eh. Might be safe on shield depending on the charge and the opponent's character?

Dsmash

Leg Intangibility from frames 3 to 7, and the first hitbox is at 7. Solid for punishing opponents without ledge invincibility and rolls towards Falco. The mainly horizontal launch angle is especially nice against bad recovery characters.

Usmash

Since a recent patch, this move is way more useful. Might be better than Dsmash now, but it's definitely better than Fsmash. Can be dangerous against weak shields.

[spoiler=Grab and Throws]

Grab

Falco's grab game is pretty good, as jab and dtilt can lead into it, and Falco can usually get a followup after throwing. He has two common combo throws: uthrow and dthrow.

Uthrow -> uair works until kill percents (at low percents, Falco can potentially squeeze in a bair after the uair), and launches the opponent to allow Falco to land and pressure them with more uairs. If this is done on a platform at higher percents, this could also kill.

Depending on the DI, dthrow can be followed up by dash attack, usmash, or bair, but these options stop being true followups at percents that uthrow -> uair still work at.

I said "two common throws" because Falco can potentially do fthrow -> buffered laser, which can lock the opponent. However, this is extremely situational because even the character choice can negate the opportunity. Some characters can avoid it via DI in, and for those that can't, they usually have to be at a rather specific percent range for it to work (assuming they even DI incorrectly at the percent range).

Did I convince you into agreeing that uthrow is the best option?

Falco's bthrow can kill at high percents, but the opponent can avoid this with downward DI.

[spoiler=Aerials]

Nair

Not as useful as other characters' nairs for getting out of strings, as it's not a single lasting hitbox. The first two hits can lock an opponent on a platform.

...Yeah. It exists.

Fair

I don't give this move the proper showcasing it deserves. Thanks, bair.

Falco's edgeguard game is held up by this move. Fair has:

- No weak hitbox like bair and dair. A significant advantage over those two aerials.

- Multiple hits, which makes teching off of the stage more challenging. Players that aren't familar playing against Falco might also drop their shield too early.

- Trading with this move results in a gamestop trade semi-spike.

However, this move has 25 frames of landing lag; if your opponent knows how long to keep their shield up, Falco will be punished.

If you aren't convinced in the overall "goodness" of this move, I recommend

.

Bair

Falco's best killing option. One of the best, if not the, best bair in the game (Villager's comes to mind). Frame 4 and autocancels from frame 15 and onward (as well as from frame 1-3). However, the overall usefulness of this move can result in it being stale a lot. Might be a playstyle thing, on the other hand.

Dair

Falco's defining aerial in past Smash games. Now more inline with the other characters (read: disappointing). Frame 16 and is pretty strong, but with how good recoveries are in this game, don't be surprised if the opponent recoveries. On the other hand, this move has a bit of potential due to being able to

. The first active frame being frame 16 holds this combo potential back significantly, however. Fair is generally the better option for edgeguarding, but dair can have its moments.

Sidenote: I am salty that Ryu's dair is frame 8

Uair

One of Falco's best string starting moves. Frame 7 aerial that can be followed up by other aerials (I think even dair can be used if you position yourself to punish a read airdodge). Can be a frame trap when used with bair (opponent predicts Falco's uair and successfully dodges, but bair gets them).

[spoiler=Neutral Special - Laser]

The biggest change to Falco was the removal of being able to cancel the endlag of lasering via short hops. Falco's neutral game suffers due to this. The FAF (First Actionable Frame I think, which is the first frame you can do something else after doing this move) is 59 if done on the ground; 50 if done in the air.

To compare with some other characters:

- Sheik's needles (1-5 thrown) have a FAF of 48

- Diddy Kong's peanut gun has a FAF of 49, and his banana peel has a FAF of 40

- Greninja's uncharged water shuriken has a FAF of 46

- Fox's laser has a FAF of 40 on the ground, 38 in the air

- Luigi's fireball has a FAF of 44 (It used to be 41 before version 1.1.0)

While I don't think he should be able to act as quickly as he did in the previous games, some reduction to the endlag (for both ground and air) would probably be my number one wish for Smash 4 Falco.

HOWEVER

This move still has it's uses!

- Forcing approaches, primarily from non-projectile characters. Is it punishable at close ranges? Yeah. Can you still use it at long ranges? Yeah.

- Locking. The 3% from the laser can now turn into 23% from uthrow -> uair, or a kill at higher percents, if Falco can move quickly enough (I usually Phantasm to follow their forced getup).

- Tacking on just a little more after a string or combo ends. Due to the linear path the lasers travel, as well as their distance, they are especially easy to land for extra damage. Enough of these "last hit lasers" can be a noticeable difference in a stock.

- Edgeguarding. Doing damage to an opponent prevents them from grabbing onto the ledge for an amount of time (40 frames if I heard correctly?). And even if they get back on, they'll be getting back on with a little more percent built up.

- Unstaling moves. I find this especially useful for eventually unstaling dtilt and bair, two moves that are useful throughout an opponent's stock.

It's not as good as it was, but it is still a tool worth using.

[spoiler=Other specials]

Side Special - Falco Phantasm

One of the first hurdles Falco players have to overcome in order to become better is the urge to spam this move both in neutral and when recovering (I'm still working on this for recovering). This move has some potential in starting strings, as short hoping (you want to barely be off the ground)before inputting this move reduces the endlag after doing the Phantasm; being offstage reduces it even more (again, barely off the stage, vertical-wise). Falco can potentially follow up with uair or bair.

Learning the height you need to be to snap the ledge instead of landing on stage is another part of mastering the move; it's pretty frustrating when you land just in time to meet your opponent's fsmash. There's a little bit of edgeguarding potential for this move due to sending the opponent downward, but again, Smash 4 recoveries are pretty solid overall.

Down Special - Reflector

Shine isn't as solid as in Melee, but it is still a useful zoning tool for Falco. Its first hitbox is on Frame 5 (for damage) and it has pretty good range, but it can be easily punished if predicted, as it has a FAF of 51. This move also locks opponents that miss a tech, and has a chance of tripping standing opponents. Another move that I should use a little more often.

Up Special - Fire Bird

Falco's double jump is pretty good. Unfortunately, he doesn't always have it; sometimes you have to depend on Fire Bird for vertical recoveries. It's not as good as Fox's as far as length and knockback goes, unfortunately. You can also use this for mixing up getting on stage from the side.

Oh, and this move can also lock opponent missing a tech. (Thanks for mentioning this, Comet)

[spoiler=Thoughts on Matchups]

As said before, approaching is a challenge for Falco. Characters with disjoints make this task even harder.

Of the top tiers, I feel like Cloud and Mario in particular are the two biggest struggles for Falco. Cloud makes Falco approach with limit, and then swats him away with his sword, which makes him...not want to approach. Edgeguarding Cloud can be pretty easy, however.

Mario can edgeguard Falco very well due to usmash the cape and F.L.U.D.D. Mario can interrupt Falco's strings with nair and can do long strings on him instead. Mario's neutral is also more solid than Falco's.

Funnily enough, I haven't had this approaching problem against Sonic players. From the few that I've played on Anther's ladder, laser seems to beat spindash pretty easily. These aren't the best Sonics in the world, on the other hand, so don't take it to heart. Sonic also has a harder time killing Falco compared to Cloud and Mario, giving Falco more time to take the stock first.

In general, while Falco's neutral game suffers, he can still have relatively even matchups when he can force approaches (laser), isn't edgeguarded easily, and can edgeguard easily (The former two matter more, imo).

[spoiler=Stages]

Falco tends to take stocks either with bair (side death) or edgeguarding (death below). Stages that have higher ceilings are preferred for Falco.

Battlefield is most likely Falco's best stage; he can lock opponents and get good strings from them, use recovering high more often (landing on platforms), and can apply pressure from underneath the platforms with the threat of uair and bair. The higher ceiling also allows Falco to survive longer, on average.

Lylat is potentially his worst stage, as the tilting of the ship can block lasers for the opponent.

EDIT: Kind of posted info rather than my opinion.

Mid tier at best. Until there are results that can argue that though, I don't think low tier is too inaccurate. Regardless, I'll probably keep maining him due to how much fun I have playing as him. You can probably get long strings with most of the cast, but they just feel amazing with Falco.

You don't understand until you get 70% damage strings

EDIT 2: Added a dash attack section (whoops), and updated two of the specials (laser and firebird) a little.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Aura Wolf

[Comet]

firebird can reset missed techs

[Elieson]

firebird can reset missed techs

Can you say this in Laymen's terms?

[Comet]

Can you say this in Laymen's terms?

just watch this

https://youtu.be/QFAiKHPfXu0

[Batter the Beast]

Not much I can add to Aura's huge post, I hope he doesn't mind if I steal his format for Megaman/Mewtwo/MK/Maybe Samus?

Wow footstool to Firebird seems legit

[Aura Wolf]

firebird can reset missed techs

Oh yeah, forgot about this. Added to the post!

Not much I can add to Aura's huge post, I hope he doesn't mind if I steal his format for Megaman/Mewtwo/MK/Maybe Samus?

Wow footstool to Firebird seems legit

I don't mind at all =o

Edited the post again.

[Jedi]

After Aura gave us outstanding Falco data (Thanks for the time and effort man)

I think its time to move forward, if you guys have any last words, feel free.

(Image from Kurogane)

Frame Data and Other things

Fox, one of the old guard in terms of top/high tiers, does it again in Smash 4, with incredibly fast and brutal attacks, along with several combos, gimps, throw chances, good neutral options and several other things (Larry Lurr just won a tourney over ZeRo with him). Fox constantly shows just how dominant he is in the meta once again, although his higher skill ceiling and several % based follow ups, along with his moves needing very good execution lead to, not as many people playing him as you'd think.

Fox's fast falling is both a boon and bane to him, its a boon because of his aerials flowing really well, its bad when he's getting combo'd he's a lighter character who gets easily combo'd not as bad as heavies but its still a trait that he can hate occasionally, his recovery is also pretty standard, and pretty easy to intercept if you have the opening, although he can cover crazy distances so don't dive too far for him.

Opinions on Fox?

Edited June 14, 2016 by Jedi

[Refa]

Where's my Up Throw -> Up Air?

[General Horace]

I can't really play fox myself, but I really enjoy watching Larry Lurr play him. Fox is just so fast and has some really neat killsetups (and some super lame ones like fair -> footstool offstage) and I think he's a top 5 character, and he can only go up imo. Lots of super safe moves (especially bair).

[Zera]

In the best Dedede vs Fox match I had, I killed his Fox Illusion recovery with a well-timed Jet Hammer. So satisfying. The matchup is really hard though, unless Fox doesn't get a kill and you survive past 200%

[Jedi]

I can't really play fox myself, but I really enjoy watching Larry Lurr play him. Fox is just so fast and has some really neat killsetups (and some super lame ones like fair -> footstool offstage) and I think he's a top 5 character, and he can only go up imo. Lots of super safe moves (especially bair).

Dem Spacies and their really good bairs haha. I'm still trying to figure out his kill confirms.

[Batter the Beast]

Fox's moves are good yeah but he also has jank, which makes him even better. Like up B KOing and covering some airdodge options, up B shieldbreaking, and fastfall fair into footstool. Fox in the corner is one of the scariest things because uptilt and bair just cover so much and are so fast that choosing any option feels wrong. This, combined with his overall KO potential means that he's very good offensively. His recovery has some counterplay, though it is hard to catch side B when it snaps to the ledge. Overall, probably a top 10 character due to his sheer offensive pressure. I think his flaws prevent him from being the best of the best, but he's pretty darn close, especially if the other top tiers get nerfed.

[Comet]

a comprehensive fox guide

Fox is good. He can always kill you so that's good. I wish that he had interesting throws. The good aspects of him were already noticed, so I'll give one of his worst flaws. When he is hit, he feels it. His recovery, in theory, should always be edgeguarded and combos on him will only be developed more and more.

[Jedi]

Good stuff on Fox peeps, time to once again move on.

(Image from Kurogane)

Frame Data and Stuff

The noob killer, Ganondorf packs tons of power, he's very heavy, has an ok command grab, some of his moves are deceptively fast, however he has tons of flaws, namely his weight class, speed, size, poor recovery, poor grab all hamper him, but you can never sleep on him. A good player using Dorf likely knows how to punish you if you even make the slightest error, which can be reaaaaally frustrating, he lacks a good approach, but can stuff you if you approach him terribly.

Opinions on the fun to use, but not so great Ganondorf?

[Elieson]

His Dash Attack can kill, and a lot of people don't realize it.

Ganon is the most Manon character to Smash, and he's never been Not-Fun.

[Serpent of Sheol]

i'd argue his recovery covers a pretty deceptively high area. it's still not great, but it's definitely not the worst

he's easy to gimp, and from his weight class, he can get 0 to death'd really quickly if you get by his pretty mediocre defense. if you mess up though, he can very easily punish you into kill percentage and then just has to bait another mistake

he has a pretty slow, yet effective edge game too

his edgeguards are pretty strong ngl

(i have more to add, but i'll wait)

[General Horace]

stealing aura's format kind of

also almost ragequit posting this becasue I deleted it when it was 80% done by accident

I started playing Ganon in Brawl because he sucked and I was better than my friends and they'd ragequit if I played people I was actually good at, but when smash 4 came out, I took a liking to him. I also like EVIL characters by default too, which helped too.

ganon is super fun but he sucks:

- Ground moves

Dash attack: Very good move, eventually kills, beats most projectiles and other grounded moves. Can get predictable since Ganon has very few approaches on the ground. Can be a combo starter at low %'s.

FTilt: Good kill move that comes out pretty quick and sends people at an awful angle to recover from. If it doesn't kill, it usually forces people to recover low, and Ganon is very good at punishing that. His best tilt.

DTilt: Decent poke, can lead into Nair and Uair at mid%'s, and kill around 120ish. A bit more range than FTilt, but less useful overall imo.

UTilt: IT BREAKS SHIELDS MAN. I wish Ganon had a real Utilt.

Jab: Used to be useless, but it's recieved damage buffs and now comes out faster, so you no longer get punished for hitting someone with this move, and is a pretty good get off me tool. Decent.

- Aerials

Uair: His fastest aerial. Has several uses, lots of different hits on it that send people at different angles. The strong hit can kill around 100-130 depending where on (or off) stage you hit them with it. A very strong gimping tool if you hit the weak hit, will end a stock if they don't have a double jump in most cases. The weak hit is also a Jab reset, which can also end a stock thanks to Ganon's strong smashes. Falling Uair has a lot of potential.

Bair: Is reasonably fast and VERY strong, but I still find this move leaves a lot to be desired. Can end a stock at 70 near the edge, but isn't quite safe on shield against most characters, and is pretty predictable. Probably his worst aerial, but is by no means bad.

Fair: I've looked down on this move for a long time, but i'm getting better at using it and like it a lot more now. It's pretty slow, but it's main use is reatreating when an enemy is coming in for a dash attack/grab, or retreating away as a get off move. When spaced right, it's safe on shield, as it has a LOT of shieldstun when speetspotted. Ok at edgeguarding predictable recoveries (spacies, falcon, etc)

Nair: Pretty quick and does a lot of damage when both hits connect. Combos out of dthrow at low %'s, maybe the weak hit of dash attack too, although I usually just use uair for safety. Is very good at edgeguarding too, it has a MASSIVE hitbox (seriously it hits well behind ganon) and is out for a very long time.

Dair: When landed onstage, it can lead into any aerial (% depending) or a devestating footstool combo, and when landed offstage, it will end a stock regardless of %. Even if you don't get anything off it, it still does 19%. Not particularly safe, but its an option out of flame choke or a grab or roll read.

- Smash Attacks

FSmash: Very strong but kinda slow slow. Can end a stock super early. Punishable, but still worth throwing out sometimes to keep people on their toes. You can actually even avoid some attacks with the charge, as Ganon steps back a bit.

DSmash: Ever since they reworked it, I've found this move just doens't work properly. The two hits don't connect very often, and its very slow and punishable, all while being not particularly powerful. Can get roll reads, but you have better options. One of his worst attacks.

USmash: One of the best Usmashes in the game. Not only is it the strongest in the game, it has almost no cooldown, so it can be used a bait for people expecting to get a punish off it. Does a lot of shield damage and has lots of range and priority. Kind of slow though.

- Grabs and Throws

All of Ganon's grabs suck, probably the worst in the game at pivot, dash and standing grabs. Maybe Little Mac is worse, i'm not sure. Why such a big, slow character has such a poor grab is beyond me.

His throws are mediocre too. You get some followups out of downthrow at low-mid% (nair, uair, wizkick) and Fthrow does 13%, but Bthrow is pretty weak and Uthrow is absolutely useless. Grabbing someone at the edge with a heavy and not getting a kill off it at 170 is downright depressing. At least it probably won't happen since Ganon's grab is so awful.

- Specials

Warlock Punch: IT KILLS PEOPLE AT 0% AFTER A SHIELDBREAK!!!!!!!!! Absolutely terrible outside of disrespect and FFAs.

Dark Dive: One of the worst recoveries in the game. Not only is it worse heightwise than falcon's, it's also weaker for some reason too. Only use imo is using it to hit someone shielding on a ledge above you, people never expect it. I really hope they change his recovery to the custom with two hits and superarmour in future games, it further declones him, and gives him an actual functional recovery (in addition to an oos kill move)

Wizard's Foot: Ok as a mixup onstage, and thanks to recent buffs actually kills around 120ish. The aerial version is a high risk way to help him land (or even net an early kill!) but it has devestating endlag if you miss. Footstool -> Wizkick spike is a true combo, but Ganon's jump and recovery are so bad that it's usually suicide. It's stylish at the very least. Edgecancels too, can help with some surprise edgeguards.

Flame Choke: Pretty good, gives ganon an answer to shields. Can lead to techchases (or killconfirms with dtilt or ftilt on some of the cast if the miss the tech), along with the infamous ganoncide. I wish it was a bit faster. The aerial version does more damage, but is kind of balls, most getupattacks can hit ganon while he's still in endlag.

I really wish you could cancel Flame Choke into a Throw, or go through with the choke to the ground. It would make the move itself harder to tech, or the throws harder to DI. Would be a really cool change to the move IMO.

- Taunts

Tbh his taunts aren't super funny but the grunts he makes on side taunt and down taunt are pretty great and utaunt is the go to one after ending a stock.

- Matchups

Ganon loses very badly (read 8:2) to most of the high tiers, Sheik, ZSS, Sonic, Fox, Pika, Diddy, Villager, and Cloud are all very very hard for Ganon to do much against and are almost unwinnable. Rosalina is kind of manageable, as Ganon is pretty good at getting rid of Luma and kill her very early, but gets juggled for days and edgeguarded pretty easily (although this goes both ways) The only top tiers Ganon does alright against are Ryu and Mario, as he can outrange them, but he definately doesn't go even or win the matchups.

He also struggles with other upper class characters like ROB, Megaman, Toon Link and Greninja since he loses terribly to their projectiles (dash attack doens't beat ROB's laser, or bombs either) and then has a rough time with Link, Marth and Ike thanks to swords beating out his moves and projectiles.

One of his worst matchups is actually Little Mac, it's almost as bad as the top tier matchups. Mac can beat his approaches with his super armour, and Ganon's so slow and his grab game is so weak that he struggles to exploit Mac's weaknesses.

He really only goes even with or wins against characters he can outrange.

The worst part about playing Ganon though is people can usually just lame you out if they want too. His air speedand run speed are so bad, and since he has no chargeable attack like limit or projectile, he's force to approach, which automatically puts him at a disadvantage considering his speed. The mistake most people make against Ganondorf is approaching him, which levels the playing field a bit. At the end of the day, you can always just run away from him or shoot stuff at him, he really has no answers for it. He can dash attack most projectiles yes, but the other character faces no/very little risk and Ganon will eventually mess up a dash attack/shield and be hit.

- Stages

I'd say Battlefield is good for Ganon, it's pretty small and he can pressure through platforms pretty well, although it does make him easier to juggle. Town and City is also good for its smaller blastzones, and Smashville is ok but he can get camped pretty well there. FD is terrible since he can get camped, and Dreamland is alright.

Lylat is a good counterpick, the tilting makes using projectiles harder, although it can also fuck his recovery, and again he can pressure through platforms well. Going to Duck hunt is suicide, Ganon can't actually make it into the tree without using his Up B or the dog, so he can just get camped there forever and there isn't anything he can do about it.

- Closing

Ganon is definately one of the worst characters in the game. Sadly he doesn't have much more tech like another low tier like Shulk potentially has, so he's not going up any time soon. His jumps, airspeed, and run speed are just too terrible and his recovery is too exploitable for him to make any splashes. I don't believe he is the worst (I think that honour goes to puff, but he's a close second) but he is still extremely fun and winning with him is really rewarding.

Edited June 16, 2016 by General Horace

[Serpent of Sheol]

oh yeah if it wasn't mentioned by horse, ganon's wizard foot ledge cancels when spaced properly

pretty useful for edgeguarding imo

[Ken Masters]

Also ganon has 2 One Hit kill moves; Ganoncide, obviously, and offstage dair. It kills most of the roster at 0% at stage level, and at 5% on recovery monsters like Villager.

Now that's some badass power

[Zera]

Ganondorf has the best ledge hold in the game. No other character's hurtbox goes as low as his while holding the ledge.

He uses his astounding power to hang from the ledge with just his fingertips.

[Elieson]

Does his Usmash do more damage than D3 and his mighty Fsmash?

[General Horace]

% wise I think they actually do the same damage, but DDD's Fsmash kills sooner because its harder to kill off the top.

[Jedi]

Ganondorf is just plain fun to play as, especially in Dittos, its just so much power and so funny for some reason.

[Shin]

Ganon's slow and fat, just like Horace. He's got some decent reach on some of his moves but he really relies on hard punishes to get things in. He's also a lot better among less experienced players than any other group.

He's too slow to approach people properly, he's really gimpable and his recovery's pretty bad. There's also a real lack of mobility. He's probably not the worst character in the game, but he's definitely hanging around with the losers.