Smash 4, Character Discussion Revised (#35 Pikachu)

[Falaflame]

Luigi.

I remember prepatch Luigi. It was a nightmare. His D-Throw combo'd into like, anything. And you couldn't SDI out of it. Or, if you did, it required some hefty 50/50s. It was one of those times where if you get KO'd off of a dthrow combo, there wasn't really much you can do about it. Prepatch Diddy was about the same, but a lot more annoying by a country mile.

But less on prepatch and more on the Luigi now.

I still do not like fighting Luigis, but I can tolerate them a lot more now than I did back then. It could also be due to the fact my main (G&W) can handle Luigi quite well, but yeah, I can imagine it to be frustrating for, say for instance, an Ike to try to approach Luigi. Jump over that wall of fire? Uaired for days. Try to shield the fireballs? Gitgrabbed. Take the fireball damage? Gitgrabbed. It's a lose-lose situation for Ike...

Edited July 15, 2016 by Falaflame

[Jedi]

I still do not like fighting Luigis, but I can tolerate them a lot more now than I did back then. It could also be due to the fact my main (G&W) can handle Luigi quite well, but yeah, I can imagine it to be frustrating for, say for instance, an Ike to try to approach Luigi. Jump over that wall of fire? Uaired for days. Try to shield the fireballs? Gitgrabbed. Take the fireball damage? Gitgrabbed. It's a lose-lose situation for Ike...

Luigi slides alot from getting hit at all on shield from Ike, and he has a hard time approaching outside of fireball, its not quite as lose lose as you say.

[shadowofchaos]

My fairly small visual contribution.

Edited July 15, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Anacybele]

10/10 SOC!

I don't think the nerfs hit him, too harshly, I mean he isn't as widely used now, but his dedicated players are still doing quite well. Such as Mr.ConCon.

He got knocked down to high C tier (with some tier lists putting him in lower B). And he was originally S tier. I'd have rather him only get bumped to A...

Edited July 15, 2016 by Anacybele

[Shin]

He's not as terrifying as he used to be, but he's still potent in the right hands. He's also in a better tier than all my LOSERS. I can never quite get into Luigi, most of my For Glory challenges end with him. I think once he's gotten in, he's alright, but his approach isn't great.

[shadowofchaos]

I feel though, that while Luigis up close are terrifying, it's not as terrifying as it used to be.

Mostly, if the Luigi is off stage, attempting to gimp them is the best option for a Robin.

Any misfires has a huge audio cue that you can use to tech. Up B gives you a free Elwind spike if it doesn't sweetspot.

The only concern offstage is that down b recovery. Teching that thing is nigh impossible without luck. And hell, if you're prepared to tech it, there's a chance that last hit won't actually hit you, and you get dragged down as you air dodge for your input instead of surviving if you mashed up b.

Release Luigi felt like a hawk eyeing for an opening. Now, Mario and Luigi feels like they're on equal footing.

Which is good for me as neutral aerial gimp are actually worth going for now with Reflet/Robin.

Edited July 15, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Comet]

Luigi was nerfed when the metagame was less developed. Even if he got dowm throw cyclone back (which could be escaped woth SDI), I doubt he'd be S tier.

[Jedi]

Good discussions folks! Luigi's gone for a little longer than I expected, however its time to move on yet again!

Its time for our first double feature.

Super Frame Data Bros

Dr. Frames

Mario

Mario is quite the character in Smash 4, something he's always excelled at in smash, is that his moves are generally safe, pack decent power, while retaining good speed, and generally good frames, however in Smash 4, that all got ramped up to 11, He has ridiculously good frame data, his moves coming out incredibly fast, adding more danger to his grab game, where a simple dthrow can lead into a massive true combo -> string, he also has a kill throw with bthrow and is also a very good anti-Luma technique, he can escape combos like no ones business, he has a solid projectile, a reflector that also trolls you by spinning you away, really good smash attacks that can all KO, especially Usmash, Mario is utterly safe when doing usmash his head is invincible during it, so don't you even dare challenge it, and it barely has any end lag, its quite infamous at this point.

His aerials are really solid overall, fair is a decent spike although laggy, its probably his laggiest attack, uair combos, bair is a walling/advancing move, nair is a combo escaper and approach while dair hits alot.

In short, Mario is a combo crazy machine, good grabs, good attacks overall, but even he has some weaknesses, his range is fairly limited, so while he's a very huge threat to alot of characters, ones that can space him out, generally have an easier time keeping him out of their bubble, also his recovery is fairly predictable.

Doc
Doctor Mario, is slower and more akin to Melee Mario in terms of his moveset, with dair being his old twirl kick and down B being the Doctor Tornado (Which is your best recovery option if you can mash). For no reason, while his Up B hits like a truck, it lacks Mario's safe frames, and it goes significantly less distance, some of Mario's combos will work with Doc too, but Doc hits overall harder and is a little bit laggier in some aspects, but he can KO reaaaaaaaaaally early, as his smashes are even more meaty and his fair is massive.

They may have a few similar combos, but overall you need to play Doc differently than Mario, you need to punish more, and be sure not to be off stage more than you have to, it won't usually end well if you get greedy, although considering your power. You probably won't need to all that often.

While I play these characters fairly often, I know others have much more to say about them, so I'm gonna give it to them. I was going to type more but its really early, so have at it.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Jedi

[Zera]

Mario is so good, he's a bonafide cannoli in this game. Everything you need to be a versatile character - projectile, reflector, kill throw, mad combos - you name it, Mario's got it. In fact, the only reason he's not top tier is that some characters are somehow even better.

Also, this was pretty entertaining.

[Comet]

Doc's up b OoS is amazing. That is all.

[MrStardustRicon]

Up Smash.

[Jedi]

Something to note is that Mario just won EVO in Grand finals, thanks to Ally vs a very skilled Megaman/Yoshi player from Japan.

[Elieson]

Docs UpB is like instant and it's so good

I wish his vertical cape was just a bit wider

[Comet]

Honda isn't so great? Are you kidding me? When was the last time you saw a company that makes cars with such durability? Ferrari breaks wallets. Audi breaks wallets. You can keep your velocity. I prefer the mileage.

also up smash

[Batter the Beast]

UPSMASH INTO UPSMASH TRUE COMBOS

The Doc is in! He’s here to give you your daily dose of pain, which he does with his hard hitting attacks and godly frame data. Now, he and Mario have a lot of subtle differences that change how they want to approach the game. Mario loves his combos, and so does Doc, but Mario has longer combos while Doc has to settle for short, sweet, and damaging combos. Any general statement you can make about Mario, you can say about Doc as well. Such as having difficulties vs disjoints, beating a lot of rushdowns, having a bunch of neutral or favorable MUs, etc. Let’s start off with a comparison with Mario since most people know Mario stuff. Overall, we can assume that Doc’s moves are stonger, so I will just list other important comparisons here. Some of the stuff is technical so don't worry about reading all of it if you're not into that.

[spoiler=Doc vs Mario]

Jab 1: FAF of 23 vs Mario’s 20

Jab 2: FAF of 25 vs Mario’s 22

Jab 3: FAF of 36 vs Mario’s 34 – Only slightly laggier, still a very good jab. Also does more overall damage.

Fsmash: Less range

Upsmash: Head intangibility from frames 9-13 compared to Mario’s 9-12. BKB of 0 vs Mario’s 32. KBG of 117 vs Mario’s 94. - Sends opponent at an angle behind Doc compared to Mario’s straight up angle. Can be a better kill move in certain scenarios and is ever so slightly more difficult to challenge

Backthrow: KBG of 60 vs Mario’s 66 - KOs about the same time

Dthrow: BKB of 75 vs Mario’s 40. KBG of vs 45 Mario’s 90 - Still combos well, but not as well as Mario's

Nair: Early hitbox active for frames 3-7 compared to Mario’s 3-5. Sourspot deals 5.6% vs Mario’s 8% Late hitbox active for frames 8-27 vs Mario’s 6-29. Sweetspot deals 8.96% vs Mario’s 5% Landing lag of 12 vs Mario's 10 - Worse combo breaker in terms of damage, better approach option. Landing lag difference is hard to notice, especially with the greater shield damage on the late hitbox

Fair: Active from frames 16-19 vs Mario’s 16-20. Sends opponent at upwards angle vs Mario’s meteor on early hit. Landing lag of 28 vs Mario’s 26 - Generally worse than Mario’s

Bair: Active from frames 6-13 vs Mario’s 8-10. Landing lag of 16 vs Mario’s 12. BKB of 10 on early hit vs Mario’s 12. KBG of 90 on early hit vs Mario’s 106 – Every aspect is better for Doc except the landing lag, which is still small.

Upair: Active from frames 4-12 vs Mario’s 4-8. Landing lag of 14 vs Mario’s 12. BKB of 9 vs Mario’s 10. KBG of 100 vs Mario’s 135. Sends opponent at more of an angle – Worse combo move

Dair: Completely different move, less safe on shield but more difficult to challenge

Neutral B: Projectile bounces higher. Generally about the same quality as Mario’s but can’t be absorbed

Side B: Reflects on frames 6-22 vs Mario’s 6-20. Doesn’t lift him up in the air.

Up B: Single hit vs Mario’s multihit. No intangibility. Doesn’t go as high. Worse recovery but a damn good kill option

Down B: Completely different. Aids recovery and can punish some defensive options but is overall unsafe vs FLUDD’s utility

Overall Attributes:

Runspeed: 1.312 (rank 52) vs 1.6 (rank 28-30)

Max Air Speed: .943 (rank 43) vs 1.15 (rank 9-11)

Short Hop: 35 frames of air time vs Mario's 40

For every move, Doc does more damage per hit and KOs earlier in general

Every other difference not mentioned is not noteworthy

tl;dr

Doc does overall damage and some of his moves are slightly laggier, or have the same exact frame data. We all know how good Mario’s frame data is, so Doc’s must also be good, if only ever so slightly worse. Mario has faster movespeed, which is always a good quality, and his moves generally knock opponents in less favorable angles in terms of combos. Doc is more of a heavy character in playstyle, meaning that each hit he lands is more impactful than each hit Mario lands due to his higher damage output per hit. Doc relies more on mindgames and reading than Mario, who can be more aggressive with his higher movement speed.

[spoiler=Ground Normals]

Jab 1 - Sick 2 frame jab

Jab 2 - Decent followup jab which isn't amazing for mixups

Jab 3 - Jab Finisher. Somewhat laggy and easy to punish on whiff/shield

Dash Attack - High priority and comes out fast, but is really unsafe on shield. Use sparingly

Ftilt - Swift 5 frame poke. Decent to just randomly throw out vs non-swordies as it's safe on shield. Generally outspaced by swords. Can be angled, but angling only changes the... angle

Utilt - Combo starter that comes out frame 5. Decent OOS tool. Followup with upair

Dtilt - Another combo starter that comes out frame 5. Followup with upair

Fsmash - Kills absurdly early, Can be angled, angling only changes the... angle. Safe on shield on slower characters. Throw out every now and then, but not often

Upsmash - Stupidly safe and hard to challenge due to head intangibility. Doc's best smash attack. KO's at average %s, sends opponents behind Doc. Use to catch landings or to punish. Can combo start at very low %s. Can combo into itself vs heavies at 0%. Safe on shield.

Dsmash - Decent for catching rolls. First hit comes out frame 5 (!), 2nd comes out frame 14. Doc's fastest smash attack. Safe on shield.

[spoiler=Air Normals]

Nair - Standard sex kick and combo breaker. The only sex kick to do more damage as it lingers. Use to get out of many combos and not much else. Safe on shield on late hitbox.

Fair - Decent KO move, autocancels when used during fullhop. Can hit after down throw at very specific %s. Throw out every now and then as a surprise move. Don't land with this.

Bair - The best bair in the game, or damn close to it. This move comes out fast, has decent range, can KO. Use a LOT in neutral. Safe on shield if spaced.

Upair - Combo extender. Sends opponents at a forward angle. Can generally fit only 1 into a combo. Can either straight up combo afterwards with up B or land to mixup. Generally safe on shield.

Dair - Landing tool. Generally not used, but can be used to surprise opponents by landing on them with it. Not safe on shield on landing.

[spoiler=Grabs and Throws]

Standing Grab - Standard grab

Dash Grab - Same range, comes out 1 frame slower, 6 more frames of endlag

Pivot Grab - More range, comes out 3 frames slower, about the same endlag

Fthrow - Generally used for getting opponents offstage and not much else

Bthrow - Kill throw at high %s

Uthrow - Rarely used. Dthrow does everything this throw can but better

Dthrow - Combo throw. Followup with upair.

[spoiler=Specials]

Neutral B - PILLS HERE. Bouncing projectile, bounces higher the higher Doc is when he throws it. Can't be absorbed. Can throw out randomly if far away or high up offstage

Side B - Reflector, turns opponents around if hit. Use only to reflect in most cases. Hinders recovery

Up B - SHOOOORYUKEN. Standard recovery tool, doesn't have a lot of distance and has no intangibility. Can be used OOS or to end combos. Hits at frame 3, which is stupidly quick. Can KO at high %s with the early hitbox. Can reverse it on hit by moving the joystick backwards immediately after the initial hit, even on shield. Decent to throw out in neutral on BF as Doc can just land on the platforms.

Down B - Mash to aid recovery. Can catch bad spot dodges and rolls, but is really unsafe to randomly use. Really laggy, so don't use it while recovering if the opponent is closing in, as they can easily punish.

[spoiler=General MUs]

Doc's MU spread is similar to Mario's due to their similar qualities. However, Doc loses hard to Shiek and Rosa as they can abuse his bad recovery. Doc also does arguably worse vs Cloud and Marth as he lacks the movespeed to punish their spacing. He also doesn't have FLUDD to help him vs Cloud/MK/Corrin. He generally beats anyone else that Mario will beat, such as Yoshi, Megaman, and Falcon.

Doc actually has a slightly advantageous MU against Mario. This is because Doc does more damage on hit to Mario while his moves come out at about the same time. He also KOs Mario earlier than Mario KOs him in most cases. Mario can't abuse Doc's recovery that well, so that helps him in the MU.

[spoiler=Stages]

Battlefield/Dream land 64 - Good, platforms can help with combos a lot

Town & City - Good, Doc can KO really early here

Duck Hunt - Decent, pills aren't disrupted by ducks most of the time

FD - Decent, Doc can punish landings hard here

Lylat - Decent, can kill stupidly early here but tilting can screw up his recovery

Smashville - Decent, this stage doesn't really have anything particularly bad for Doc

In all honesty, there is no reason to pick Doc over Mario unless you like the character or if his slightly better bair is worth the worse recovery. He can be a situational Mario counterpick since he slightly beats Mario while still being relatively easy to use. Still, even though Mario is better, Doc is still good. High tier good. The main thing holding him back is his bad recovery, since some of the top tiers can exploit it. Every other flaw is really only apparent when you compare Doc and Mario under a magnifying glass.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Batter the Beast

[Jedi]

Thanks for the huge amount of data Batter, working on the next post as I post this (I want to make sure it hits the next page instead)

The Frame Data of Kings

Mimicutie

Marth & Lucina, I'm sure we'll have tons of people post data, and post stuff about why they like playing them here.

Marth recently got 2 placements in the top 32 of EVO, people are stating he's reclaiming his old glory to an extent after his very very very very rocky start in Smash 4, Lucina has also recieved similar buffs, but still lacks some of the things Marth has (namely the tipper), but has better pivot data (Or so I've heard).

Spacing is their game, the Falchion has quite a bit of reach, and if you get chained or zoned out. It can be very difficult to get in at all, with you constantly getting batted out of their space. Marth & Lucina have very solid ground moves and aerial attacks, some nice little combos they can pull off, and a semi ok grab game, with some small low percentage combos, a kill throw and a potential kill setup, with an alright pummel.

Marth in the right hands is utterly devstating due to his tipper properties yet again, Fsmash can kill you at around 50% if you are incredibly unfortunate or Marth just spaced super well, fair again is one of his best moves, uair is solid and is part of that kill setup mentioned earlier, utilt chains into itself very well, jab can setup some funky strings, dancing blade is actually a kill option if tippered, also a good aerial option for a mix up, nair is as good as ever with its wide reach dual hits, dsmash is kind of meh, but can be done after some attacks for some confusion or mixup, usmash is again situational, but at least has those funky side hitboxes.

Dair has some wide reach, but good luck hitting the meteor, you have 1 super precise frame, consistency is not the name of that move, but it can be well used. The duo has decent speed overall, and their offstage pressure is really good, Dolphin Slash can stage spike unwary foes, and of course their counter is really fast when utilized properly.

Lucina seems to be stronger against foes that Marth can't space tippers against as easily, although this makes her KO a fair bit later, as she lacks the tipper mechanic all together (except on like dair) Fsmash is probably her best kill move still, but it kos way later than Marth, her players may be able to identify things I've heard such as better speed on certain moves or pivots, or if thats just a myth.

The duos greatest weakness is probably the fact that, they don't have all that great of landing options, as dair is incredibly laggy if blocked or if it misses, also if their zone gets broken into they can have a hard time expelling the intruder, but overall solid characters, Lucina has more struggles than Marth though, because she doesn't have the really good KO options, but she can still be a pain to deal with.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Jedi

[Dotty]

remember when shield breaker actually broke shields

[Jedi]

remember when shield breaker actually broke shields

Yes, now you have to charge it, what silliness is this?

[Comet]

Marth should be able to kill Fox from just one grab at 0. Forward throw double fair has always worked for me so I'm pretty sure it's true or close enough with the second tipper fair. After the fairs, Fox can be edgeguarded in a flowchart manner. Neutral against Fox is super hard and many peopl3 believe Fox wins the MU by an extreme amount, but I think Marth wins it myself. I don't know why I wqnted to say this first, I suppose the reasoning is that my opinion is rather controversial to others.

Most of Marth's optimal setups are difficult to execute. Great spacing is important for any character, but it's even more paramount for Marth when he's trying to punish air dodges with tipper aerials and what not. His frame data seems just good enough to frame trap even if he swings, but the timing is really tight. Dair is weird; it only has 1 actuve frane for the meteor, but during that frame, the meteor hitbox is huge and the sword swings outward so it's not as hard to set up as you would think.

As for Marth's throws, he can use f throw or d throw at early % for guaranteed followups. F throw leads to fair and maybe nair (not sure about this, but I've heard about it) and leaves Marth with complete stage control. D throw leads to up air, bair, or frame traps and can later be a 50/50 kill confirm on some characters, notably Sheik.

I don't think Marth loses to many characters. The only top tier I think he has trouble with is Sonic, though I haven't thought about thinking how much he loses rather than how to play against characters much. I'd say Falcon beats Marth too. They can both play the dash dance game, but Falcon is faster. Falcon also solidly beats Marth at really close quarters with his jab (Marth's jab has decent frame data and reaches farther, so he has a slight advantage at that range). Falcon also has a guaranteed knee from down throw and other setups that are completely possible to get. Marth can try to zone, but Falcon has the speed to tane advantage of openings witb relative ease. ROB is also really annoying, but I think that's because it's much easier for him to do ROB things than it is for Marth to do what he needs to, similar to Marth vs Peach in Melee. Toon link is similar, but Marth probably loses since his speed isn't enough to consistently reach TL through his walls. Anybody that can deal with Marth's zoning well, like with safe projevtiles or overwhelming speed, can probably give him some degree of trouble.

Some other combos that Marth has are falling up air to tipper f smash or nearly anything else. Falling up air > footstool > DB1 to land faster > dair > tipper f smash / tipper up smash is a true combo, but really hard to set up and only works around 40%. Jab to f smash, up b, fair, and DB all work as kill combos. Aerial DB1 and tipper nair can chain on some characters, usually heavies, at miscellaneous percent ranges, depending on fall speed and stuff. Late up b, weak fair, weak f tilt, and weak dair (I think) can reset missed techs to confirm into other stuff. Late fair into tipper f smash or tipper f tilt is true around 20%.

Lucina is about as good as Marth. She trades the tipper for a more consistent damage output, better combo ability in some aspects, and a longer dash length. Against characters that are probably not going to be hit by tippers, Lucina will KO earlier, especially with f smash, which is almost ridiculous. By the way, Lucina also keeps the tipper mechanic with d smash. Lucina's combo ability is better since she doesn't need tipper nair or DB for true combos at lower percents. Her jab gets the same treatment. Lucina's longer dash lets her have longer perfect pivots and dash dances, booning her mobility. Lucina is also slightly shortter than Marth, which is a double edged sword (get it?). She has a smaller hurtbox, but her f smash won't reach past BF's platforms and her up throw kills slightly later due to a lower release point. I guess she also loses the 50/50 a bit since tbere's no killing tipper up air.

Their recovery is either decent or trash. You can actually trade meteors with Marcina's up b to kill them, or you can hit them with a projectile if you're a character like Sheik or Ness. You could also 2 frame them if you avoid the hitbox of up b. Marcina's edgegaurds on other characters, however, are scary. Counter leads to easy edgegaurds on the Links, Kirby (without jumps), Ike, Corrin, and others. Dair, while hard to land, will beat a lot of recoveries, such as Ike's Aether when he's spinning, and can cover horizontal recoveries like Spacies' side b. Non meteor tipper dair can work too since it has decent power, and the other person is close to the blast zone anyway. Fair and bair can work as well with their disjoint and power, and they can 2 frame opponents ecen if their recoveries have large hitboxes. Sadly, they can't challenge Sheik much, though up b, up air, and meteor dair (with perfect timing) could probably safely 2 frame her. Falling fair can also reach under the ledge to 2 frame. I forgot to mention that DB1 can also softly hit people if need be. DB4 down could probably suicide kill people offstage but it's so hard to setup any specific DB that isn't DB1 that it's probably not worth considering seriously in a match.

Against shields, late fair and late up air, when spaced, are incredibly safe. DB1 > up air is great shield pressure. Shieldbreaker is also good, obviously, and wavebounce shieldbreaker even more so, as it can be liberally throw out in neutral.

I think there are two main playstyles that Marth can excel with often. He can adopt PPMD's idea of "less swining is more" or he can zone with his disjoint. Both are effective and should be used by any Marcina player. This is not to say that aggression and other elements should be absent, as there is a place for everything.

Oh, and Marth is prettier than Lucina could ever be, and that's why I think he is SSS tier.

[Jedi]

Whoa super in depth, what would you say Ike and Cloud have to look for going into the match up with Marth?

[Comet]

Ike needs to recognize Marth's movement patterns and use them to determine where to put hitboxes. Marth is fast, but his options are limited when he's dashing, he has no space to retreat, and in the air. If you place a hitbox where he is, then he'd have to shield it, spot dodge, air dodge, or roll. Assuming that you space well, you shouldn't be punished if he shields or dodges (depends on the timing though). If you can force him into the air, then you can juggle him well too. Basically, Ike should limit Marth's movement options to get a hit which can be pressed further due to Marth's general lack of a "get off me" move.

Cloud should also look to limit Marth's options, but he can also force Marth to approach with limit charge, which is a big deal since Marth isn't good at rushing people down without conditioning. Marth can't land well a lot of the time, so Cloud can make it extremely hard to reach the ground with up air. Autocancel back air can probably contest with Marth's zoning if you want to try that, but I wouldn't rely on it often.

[Falaflame]

Marth is really really good. Lucina is actually not that far behind.

They both sure have come a long way since Prepatch, where bottom tier was essentially called the "Fire Emblem TIer". To see False doing so well now with Marth makes me proud of that. I really feel like both characters can make a good run. Especially Marth.

The thing I see from both characters are, they are purely fundamental and footsies-based. You can very easily tell a good Marth or Lucina from a bad one. Well, at least, I can.

Oh man Mr. Game & Watch is coming up soon... I'm so hype. Just gotta wait through Megaman, Meta Knight, and Mewtwo.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Falaflame

[Jedi]

Ike needs to recognize Marth's movement patterns and use them to determine where to put hitboxes. Marth is fast, but his options are limited when he's dashing, he has no space to retreat, and in the air. If you place a hitbox where he is, then he'd have to shield it, spot dodge, air dodge, or roll. Assuming that you space well, you shouldn't be punished if he shields or dodges (depends on the timing though). If you can force him into the air, then you can juggle him well too. Basically, Ike should limit Marth's movement options to get a hit which can be pressed further due to Marth's general lack of a "get off me" move.

Cloud should also look to limit Marth's options, but he can also force Marth to approach with limit charge, which is a big deal since Marth isn't good at rushing people down without conditioning. Marth can't land well a lot of the time, so Cloud can make it extremely hard to reach the ground with up air. Autocancel back air can probably contest with Marth's zoning if you want to try that, but I wouldn't rely on it often.

Alright thanks, also we did talk a fair bit about Sonic in the Discord, do you still have a similar stance on that? I think its roughly equal.

[Jiac]

Alright my opinion is rather controversial, but I'll give my thoughts.

Marth is a pretty good character in Smash 4, you get rewarded pretty well for good spacing and his frame data is decent. Personally, I think in Smash 4 he's slightly overrated. I say this because, currently everyone is placing him as a high tier character, however, I believe his tools will not hold-up to solidify his placement as a high-tier. I personally believe Marth will be at minimum a mid-tier character. Due to a lot of people pushing his meta and repping him in tournament, I predict Marth will sit comfortably in the upper part of mid-tier as the meta progresses.

My reasoning for this is almost all of Marth's options come from how finessely you can use his sword.

His grab game is very below average, getting almost nothing from grab, outside of low %. He can't really threaten you in shield outside of an occasional shieldbreaker which has more lag than a Falcon Knee. Marth has a pretty average grab, being able to force you out of stage position and put him in an advantaged state. However, he doesn't have the tools to push his advantages without requiring the reset of neutral to win.

Marth has a very good aerial game, which conversely gives him an amazing offstage presence. I think this is the biggest asset of Smash 4 Marth, his offstage presence gives him a wonderful time gimping and KO'ing opponents through the use of his F-Air covering so much space in front of him. His N-Air is a good zoning move, essentially making going into the space Marth is N-Air'ing untouchable. Close to the ledge it applies quite a bit of pressure on you as he's holding a lot of space that you cannot approach. However, if Marth mis-spaces his N-Air he will be eating a lot of punishment due to how much lag he has. The same can be said about Marth's F-Air on stage. Moving on, Marth's D-Air can be used to spike, the spike hitbox is huge, but it's only on frame 11. I do not believe the spike is why Marth's D-Air is a good move, but rather how good it is as a landing option. Marth's D-Air covers a very large space below him, however, it also has MORE LANDING LAG than a Falcon Knee, unless you meet the autocancel window. So anticipating and/or shielding Marth's D-Air in an attempt to land puts him in a really bad position to get punished, even if he spaces it. Marth's U-Air is a good killing move at higher %s and is a good move for catching landings as it covers a lot of space on top of Marth. It doesn't have the utility to be consistently used as a landing option, however, it's a pretty decent move that covers people's landing.

Marth's ground game is pretty good, with his jab being able to set-up to a lot of his moves, and it having a pretty small cooldown. His jab is very space defining and nearly impenetrable so long as he anticipates you're getting inside that space. Marth has a pretty good retreating F-Tilt, starting low and ending high, effectively covering aerial options pretty quickly. Marth's Down Tilt is good at pushing people away allowing him to maintain his space with just a poke that extends longer than his jab. Marth's Up-Tilt is mainly good for covering space above him and pushing potential advantages. It's also a decent kill move when tippered at higher %s. Up-Tilt's sheer range above him allows him to catch landings and allow him to punish your vertically along with his U-Airs.

When it comes to smashes, precision is the biggest thing for Marth. His F-Smash is actually stronger than Roy's. It can kill so much earlier with perfect spacing at ledge, killing as early as 40%. If he can kill so early, why isn't he known for his sheer KO Potential and be able to end stocks incredibly early unlike Roy? This is where sweetspot matters, Marth's sweetspot is at the tip of his blade that only covers 1/8 of his range. Compared to Roy where his sweetspot is 2/3 of his blade (of course the center of his blade is slightly weaker but not by much, still being able to kill at 60%). This comparison doesn't mean Marth is inferior to Roy, no. It shows that Marth has a comparatively different playstyle, relying more on precise spacing, getting heavily rewarded for getting the tip. In fact, this is what I believe is an issue with the current iteration of Marth, he's over-reliant on his tipper range. In theory, Marth spaced perfectly will almost always win a game, however, his lag and human ability prevent this possibility. Anyways bring it back to his Smash attacks, his U-Smash is actually pretty decent. It covers a lot of range close to him, and pushes them upwards as he thrusts his sword up. It doesn't cover much range, but it's decent in close quarters when it hits. I think Marth's down smash is okay, but there's usually not a practical time to use it, other than committing to a roll read with uncertainty. It has more lag than F-Smash, which arguably has MUCH more reward.

I believe the biggest issue with Marth is that he has no way of threatening space effectively, he can only influence, handle and hold your space. But, once your space is defined, due to the start-up and lag of his moves, he cannot in anyway threaten your space without being unsafe or taking a risk. He's not impenetrable either as he has a blind spot behind him on the ground outside of moments where he is mobile. Marth's advantaged state isn't great either, outside of when you're offstage, where his offstage presence just simply has to be respected. When you're on the ledge, he can N-Air you to box you out, or F-Air you to cover your option, but the lag on his moves and the floatiness of his short hop prevent him to be able to cover options once he throws out a move. His lag isn't bad enough where whiffing at ledge can cause him to be at a disadvantaged state, however, he is constantly forced to reset neutral due to him being unable to keep an advantage because of his general start-up and lag. A really good thing about Marth is that he has very good vertical strings, since his U-Tilts and U-Airs just cover so much space above him, it may make landing against him a little difficult.

Marth has very good retreat options when he's inviting you his space due to his space being threaten. It allows him to move his space, while being able to keep his space of influence. Particularly, retreating F-Tilt essentially allows him to make his space briefly untouchable, but he can keep his space. I haven't mentioned this yet, but Marth has really good aerial acceleration. This allows him to do more stuff such as retreat F-Air or weave in and out to B-Air you.

TL;DR

I believe Marth cannot maintain a high-tier status, but is a solid mid-tier character. This is because of the overall lag of his moves, and inconsistent ability to rack-up damage. His over-reliance on tippers and very poor reward for trying to control his space in close quarters overall suffers in his design. This is because he cannot control space as effectively as he once could due to his overall sourspot being lackluster once his space is invaded. Furthermore, the over-reliance on tippers affect his design when he cannot space in certain MUs and/or is outranged. He's very good at holding space and keeping space, but is terrible at controlling it when you invade it, since inside his space his moves do very little to shield and his grab isn't particularly good. You cannot argue that he gets really well rewarded for spacing well, however, he suffers when he whiffs moves.

EDIT: I realized I didn't get into detail about his frame data nor special moves, I might edit this post later to fix that.

Edited July 23, 2016 by ~Summer~

[Jedi]

With the controversial opinion aside, we are going to move onward.

Gotta go with the Mega Plan!

The Super Fighting Frame Data

Megaman or Rockman in Japan, has had some huge results of late, made possible by the great Kamemushi. Megaman's style is very much like his own games, he pecks at you with his shots and then destroys you when you leave yourself open.

Megaman's neutral consists of his very dominant buster shots, or lemons, which are his neutral A, ftilt and nair, so he can continuously fire even in movement, he's fairly heavy as well, so he's not the easiest to take out. Mega's defense is rock solid, but his offensive powers shouldn't be ignored either, while the majority of his attacks are projectiles, you can't just sleep on him with reflectors as he has some of the more powerful aerials and smashes, along with one heck of an utilt, which can be setup for reliable KOs.

He also has a very good grab game, which chains with his various aerials like uair, after a dthrow, along with his Leaf Shield which helps him get a grab in the first place, Megaman's bair is really fast, and really strong and safe, potentially one of the best bair's in the game overall due to how much it can be used for, Megaman's recovery is ok, the Rush Coil can be intercepted, but he has some disruption options, and a wall jump (Much like his later counterpart X). But what helps him is that he's small and heavy, making him harder to launch and not as easy to hit.

He also has the only ranged meteor smash in the game, with the Hard Knuckle (dair) and its also a powerful distance attack in general. But I'm no expert on Megaman to almost any degree, love his games, but I don't use him too much in Smash 4. I'll leave the cool things to the local expert (Batter). and other people who may have played him more than me.

Edited July 24, 2016 by Jedi