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Smash 4, Character Discussion Revised (#35 Pikachu)


Jedi
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mewtwo is a good character. it's a bummer that he doesn't get anything from grabs at low %, but that's okay since up throw and back throw kill.

Three words from me: Top 5 Material.If CEO 2016 wasn't an indication how ridiculous Mewtwo was, I have no real idea what is. Mewtwo's losing matchups are all still winnable, even his worst matchup in Diddy Kong. (as proven by Blue as of recently)I'd have to say, Mewtwo was #1 in his games for so long, but Melee showed him some serious injustice, and pre-1.1.4 patch Mewtwo was also some serious injustice as to what he really shouldve been.

not relatee to discussion, but japan's top melee mewtwo is coming to smash con this weekend. if he does well, mewtwo may see a rise similar to Yoshi's.
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mewtwo is a good character. it's a bummer that he doesn't get anything from grabs at low %, but that's okay since up throw and back throw kill

This is a miss-conception. Mewtwo gets a LOT from it's throws, his least damaging throw deals 9% and has some setups if your opponents DIs in the wrong way. (DThrow) and FThrow deals 13%, that alone can do more damage than a lot of other character's DThrow>Follow up.

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This is a miss-conception. Mewtwo gets a LOT from it's throws, his least damaging throw deals 9% and has some setups if your opponents DIs in the wrong way. (DThrow) and FThrow deals 13%, that alone can do more damage than a lot of other character's DThrow>Follow up.

if the other person will DI poorly then he can abuse that, but poor DI shouldn't be expected, especially when mewtwo is common enough to expose his gimmicks. f throw giving 13% is nice but it leads to nothing and while it gives mewtwo more space afterward, the position that it leaves the opponent in isn't as bad as what they would experience from other characters' throws. back throw at the ledge probably has the nicest angle since mewtwo has enough time to set up a risk-free bair or whatever else.

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The only thing he can semi-reliably get off down throw is putting the opponent on a BF or DL64 platform and forcing them into a teching situation which Mewtwo can try to read if they tech or react to the option of the opponent doesn't tech. It's a reliable way to take a stock with upsmash or the rare disable if they tech in place or forward.

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Thank you all for contribution to the Mewtwo topic, its gone a bit too long, moving on (Also we are doing Mii's last btw). You can continue the Mewtwo stuff if theres more to say though but for now...

GameWatch.png
Mr. Frame & Data

Mr. Game&Watch, certainly one of the most unorthodox characters in the entirety of smash, brings his hammer and other assorted games to the table, G&W is packing some of the most janky moves in the franchise, but also has solid combos, decent range (which is surprising to people inexperienced in the MU). Various ways to deal with projectiles, a pretty good grab game, along with a very funky projectile. He certainly isn't going down easily, unless you get a really good hit on him, which his lightweight will just do the rest of the work for you. His smashes are pretty legit, especially usmash, it's like Mario's just not quite as spamable.

I myself have never been able to use the guy very well, so I couldn't begin to say what works the most, and just say that Judge is hilarious because 9's kill stupidly early, his recovery is reaaaaaally solid, and he can just mess with his opponents in so many ways they won't be sure how to counter him, unless they have experience in the MU

Edited by Jedi
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I feel like Game & Watch is better than what he's been given credit for. All I'd have to link to are these players.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Smasher:GimR
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Smasher:Regi
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Smasher:Songn

Special mention goes to Regi, who I feel is the player with the most consistant results, even moreso than GimR (who also had pretty good results himself).

I like to compare Game & Watch to Mewtwo, as they play almost similarly. But overall, I really think he's just a solid character overall. He gets a lot out of his grabs, has very good offstage presence, a very good recovery, windboxes on multiple moves, great air game in general, and a decent enough ground game. He always has the legendary 9 to fear for, though I wouldn't personally throw Judge out willynilly, even after a grab. In fact, I usually use Judge when I lose practically nothing for it, such as being in a higher percent lead early-game. Dthrow to Uair is a pretty good KO confirm that can KO surprisingly early especially on stages like both AC stages and Battlefield. And of course, Oil Panic makes Mewtwo, Lucario, Ness, and Lucas, among others think twice before using their energy-based projectiles, often resulting in a 0-to-death if the receiving player acts careless. (and in some cases, Oil Panic can also foil the recovery of Ness, and Lucas if he's forced in a spot to use PK Thunder). As a result, opposing players have to respect Oil Panic.

However G&W is not without his own problems. While he can punish projectile users pretty dang hard, he can do nil against projectiles that aren't energy-based. Mega Man gives G&W some trouble, as his lemons aren't usually worth bucketing, and he usually finds no reason to use his forward smash. Link gives G&W mains fits as well, and let's not even bring up Toon Link. Sheik and Fox also poses problems, as their fastfalling will let them escape some of his combos; however they are also lightweights so they can't afford to act reckless either. Speaking of lightweight, G&W is also featherweight, so he has to be careful too, as one wrong move will allow him to die super early depending on the matchup. Characters with disjoints might also have an edge (specifically Marth), but Link aside, I've personally never really had much of an issue with them.

That's about all I can say. I enjoy maining G&W, and I feel he is a very under-the-radar character and he's definitely fun to use and definitely rewarding. I'd post frame data but it's close to 5am and I'm tired, so... I think I'll let Batter take care of that. Or someone else if they're also willing.





...By the way, have I mentioned Toon Link and Link yet? Seriously, that matchup is very fit-inducing.

Edited by Falaflame
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Toon Link and Link seem to be fit inducing for quite a bit of the cast haha, oh also I was pretty sure some people said they'd post on this that havent, gonna wait a little more for them to.

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Oops I forgot to write this up earlier. This is gonna be more short and sweet than my other essays cause I don't know Game & Watch as well as Megaman or Mewtwo.

Mr. Game & Watch is an interesting character, being a short lightweight with a lot of disjoints and some jank built into his kit that can take a stock from as low as 0%. He has a lot of combos from dthrow, though most people know about the infamous dthrow -> side B combo. While a good G&W may seem like a wall that is insanely difficult to get past, he has no options up close that are that fast, meaning he has to adopt a hit and run style of gameplay, similar to Mewtwo like Falaflame said above, but without the insane mobility of Mewtwo. Still, in certain matchups like Mewtwo, Lucario, or even Mario, just being G&W makes them scared to use a key tool in their kit as it could lead to a 2 frame move that can KO them from 0-40%. That alone solidifies him as a very weird but good counterpick to a select few top tiers, even with his flaws.

Also an interesting thing about G&W is the choppiness of his animations, meaning that at times he could be readying a move but the opponent is unaware since G&W isn't doing a fluid motion into the attack itself. He's still for a bit then the move just comes out immediately. This adds a layer of unpredictability to his kit that no other character in the game has.

[spoiler=Properties]

Weight: 75 (56th heaviest or 3rd lightest)

Run speed: 1.5264 (34th fastest)

Walk speed: 1.1242 (28th fastest)

Air speed: 1.12 (12th-13th fastest)

Fall speed: 1.24 (54th fastest)

Fastfall speed: 1.984 (54th fastest)

Max jumps: 2

Jumpsquat: 5 frames

Being a lightweight, G&W will get KOd extremely early. But, due to his light weight, floatiness, and his insane escape option in up B, G&W is very hard to combo, similarly to fellow lightweight Jigglypuff. His ground speed isn't great, but his air speed is, which is good since his aerials are overall better than his ground normals.

[spoiler=Ground Normals]

Jab - Comes out frame 4, G&W's fastest ground move. Stupidly low FAF of 16, meaning that he can mix up with it. It's slow for a jab, but it gets the job done

Rapid Jab - Standard rapid jab that is pretty consistent and difficult to punish

Dash attack - Quick frame 6 dash attack that is unsafe on shield. Solid punish and can punish the 2 frames of vulnerability on ledge on some of the cast

Ftilt - Slow frame 10 short disjoint that lasts for quite a bit of time. Good pivot option as the timing of the move is kind of weird.

Utilt - Somewhat slow frame 10 combo starter. Good to use after dthrow on heavies at low %

Dtilt - Okay this move is jank. It's a frame 6 disjoint with good range that sends grounded opponents at a low angle but is unsafe on shield due to an FAF of 40. Aerial opponents above or below this move are affected by an upwards windbox that deals about 2%. Generally you want the hitbox over the windbox, but the windbox makes it difficult to punish from above. Good punish move overall.

Fsmash - Good KO power. Somewhat unsafe on shield, but still somewhat safe.

Upsmash - Incredible aerial and landing punish, similar to Mario's infamous upsmash. Instead of head intangibility, though, G&W will block all attacks from frames 4-25 with the attack coming out on frames 24-25. Lowest FAF of any of G&W's smashes. Most of his KOs will come from this smash. Can combo into side B at 0% for a cheese KO every now and again.

Dsmash - G&W's fastest smash, comes out on both sides. Still kinda slow for a dsmash like this. Sweetspot at the hammerheads sends opponents upwards with a lot of KO power while sourspot at the handles sends opponents at a low angle but doesn't KO until about 170%. Somewhat safe on shield.

[spoiler=Air Normals]

Nair - Combo extender that is sort of a disjoint that multihits around G&W. Comes out pretty slow for a nair. Somewhat safe to land with but is difficult to hit against grounded opponents.

Fair - Somewhat slow disjoint that has okay KO power on early hit. Safe on shield if spaced.

Bair - G&W's main aerial spacing tool. As slow as Fair but is a multihit that is far harder to challenge/punish. Less KO power than fair. Safe on shield if spaced.

Upair - Another super jank move. Combo extender and KO move where the puffs of air come out, but is a windbox that can keep opponents in the air if they are above G&W whatsoever. Good to keep opponents in the air to mess up their landing strategy.

[spoiler=No really, check out this thing's hitboxes]https://zippy.gfycat.com/WideeyedRepentantAfricanaugurbuzzard.webm

Dair - Standard stall & fall with good priority. Very good landing tool, especially if autocancelled. Can run off and use this move to punish low recoveries and still make it back. Spikes at early hitbox.

[spoiler=Grabs and Throws]

Standing Grab - Standard grab. Meh range.

Dash Grab - Same range, comes out 2 frames slower, 7 more frames of endlag

Pivot Grab - More range, comes out 3 frames slower, 5 more frames of endlag

Pummel - Does about 2-3% and is somewhat slow. Almost never used.

Fthrow - Never used

Bthrow - Never used

Uthrow - Never used

Dthrow - THE throw for G&W. Pretty much just like Mario's. Combos into Side B, Utilt, Nair, and Up B depending on weights/%s.

[spoiler=Specials]

Neutral B - Semi spike hitbox at the pan, decent zoning tool and decent option to use against an offstage opponent. Good w/ B reversing

Up B - Lots of intangibility and priority. G&W is a hitbox as he's rising. Very difficult to punish and a good combo ender/anti air. If the opponent is in the air near G&W when it starts, they will be send upwards with a windbox. G&W will float down after this move w/o being helpless, and he can press down at any time to start falling at normal speed. IMO the best up B in the game.

Side B - Slow and sometimes unsafe on shield, this move will have one of nine random effects

[spoiler=Judge effects and followups]

1 - does 1%, doesn't flinch opponent, deals 12% to G&W even if it misses. Followup with shield

2 - Weak attack that can trip. Followup with dtilt or running grab

3 - Sends opponent behind G&W and does a lot of shield damage. Follow up with up B or nair

4 - Medium damage and sends opponents at an upwards angle. No followup

5 - Multi hit electric attack. Followup with nair

6 - Semispike fire attack. No followup

7 - Weak attack that generates food if hit. Follow up with mashing A to eat the food and jab

8 - Freezes. Followup with Nair or another side B

9 - Basically hits them with a home run bat. Follow up with side taunt.

Down B - The bucket. Absorbs energy based projectiles. Has 3 tiers of "fullness". Weaker moves fill 1 tier, while stronger moves can fill up to 3. When used when full, it becomes a long range frame 2 disjoint that deals damage and knockback based on the moves absorbed

[spoiler="Bucket list]

[spoiler=General MUs]

G&W is terrifying to fight if the user has an energy based projectile due to the threat of the bucket. Otherwise, G&W really struggles against dudes without energy based projectiles and can get in on him, like Sheik or Diddy.

[spoiler=Stages]

Generally speaking, pick BF or DL64 due to platform combo stuff. Try not to let the opponent pick FD or Duck Hunt since he can't zone well.

G&W is mid or low tier because of his numerous flaws without having something to make up for it except the bucket. The bucket still makes him a hilarious counterpick in certain matchups.

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Against most swordies he can pressure with neutral special so he has an option there. Cloud gives him problems but G&W can pressure him offstage very well especially with his semispikes. He can also bucket Corrin's neutral B, making him a little more antsy about using it. One sausage will also cancel out the neutral B at any level charge, so that's something

All in all, I'd say he has no MU with a swordie thats worse than 55:45.

Edited by Batter the Beast
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Against most swordies he can pressure with neutral special so he has an option there. Cloud gives him problems but G&W can pressure him offstage very well especially with his semispikes. He can also bucket Corrin's neutral B, making him a little more antsy about using it. One sausage will also cancel out the neutral B at any level charge, so that's something

All in all, I'd say he has no MU with a swordie thats worse than 55:45.

I disagree.

I think G & W loses to Cloud, Roy and Marth with a pretty solid 60:40 MU. Cloud's range makes it really hard for Game and Watch to weave in and out of his range, due to his limited air acceleration. He finds Roy's space impenetrable because the disjoint makes it tough for him to get-in, and getting close to Roy is a death sentence due to his sheer KO Potential. Marth's spacing and the amount of space he can cover in the air due to his superior air acceleration also make it really tough for Game and Watch to get anything started.

Of course, these MUs are doable, however, so long as the player plays safe, and uses their knowledge of spacing against Game and Watch's limited range, it makes it really hard for Game and Watch to get anything started. Furthermore, being fairly light doesn't help his case.

I do think Game and Watch is pretty underrated. Since he's my For Fun character. His tilts come out fast, his Up-Smash is better than Mario's. His aerials combo into each other and kill at reasonable percents. You also cannot count out his throw combos. However, his weight and lackluster range makes him tough.

He does destroy Wii Fit Trainer though, he's like the embodiment of a Wii Fit trainer counter. Game and Watch-Wii Fit Trainer is like a 70:30 MU for Wii Fit since Game and Watch can literally crouch everything in Wii Fit's arsenal, and can absorb Wii Fit's best move: Sun Salutation. Wii Fit wants to kill with F-Tilt? Game and Watch can crouch her safest kill move. Wii Fit wants to grab you for a B-Throw kill? Just crouch her grab and Judgement for a 9.

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People love the 9 hammer on Judgment, but isn't the number completely random?

Yeah, if you only pulled 9s you'd probably win a game, so long as you hit your judgements. Since it insta-breaks shields.

Though if you play Game and Watch enough, you just "feel" 9 hammers. Like how Luigis "feel" misfires lol.

Edited by ~Summer~
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Pac vs G&W? Hard to say. I haven't really had the matchup very often. Based on what I've read, it feels like a 50:50 matchup. G&W has the tools to stop Pac-Man, while Pac-Man has the tools to annoy G&W.

As for Roy vs G&W: Well, the problem is, Roy has to get in on G&W, and that alone is an issue for Roy. He has to get past G&W's wall of disjoints, and while Roy is fast enough to get in close, he lacks the frame data to get in safely. Also couple that up with the fact that G&W has no real need to get in up close against him. Making matters worse is G&W's general offstage presence. Roy, like Marth and Lucina below, also doesn't have very many good landing options when thrown up from a dthrow. However, G&W can still die pretty early, so at worst it's a winning but volatile matchup for G&W 55:45.

I can see Marth, Cloud, and even Lucina being issues, but nothing that isn't winnable for G&W. For example, G&W can destroy Cloud offstage with his very many offstage tools, not to mention neuter Cloud's Neutral B attempts to force approaches, as well as limits his options for what he wants to use when he has the limit break. (Oh god, please kill me later for that pun.) It's definitely 45:55 Cloud's favor, but as I said, the Cloud has to respect G&W's offstage presence and his Oil Panic.

And afaik, besides Neutral B, G&W's bair and nair can provide problems for Marth, bair being able to outspace them fairly well, and nair acting as a pretty good anti-air; Lucina even has it worse than Marth because she doesn't have the tipper hitboxes that Marth has. Also neither character has great landing options, which makes them usmash fodder especially in high %s. In Marth's defense, however, G&W has to respect the tipper. Also both characters have Tilts and Fair that G&W has to be cautious about. Probably 45:55 in Marth's favor, probably 50:50 Lucina, but I'll have to fact-check this/lab it.

I'll double-check with Lord Shade on this too, him being a former Marth main, because I'm not entirely too sure about the Marth matchup myself. Speaking of LordShade, I want to see his perspective on the M2 vs G&W matchup.


Edit: Also one thing that wasn't thrown out, is Jab1 can lead to a grab. That, and he can crouch under a lot of things. It's hilarious how many attacks he can dodge simply by crouching.

Edited by Falaflame
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As for Roy vs G&W: Well, the problem is, Roy has to get in on G&W, and that alone is an issue for Roy. He has to get past G&W's wall of disjoints, and while Roy is fast enough to get in close, he lacks the frame data to get in safely. Also couple that up with the fact that G&W has no real need to get in up close against him. Making matters worse is G&W's general offstage presence. Roy, like Marth and Lucina below, also doesn't have very many good landing options when thrown up from a dthrow. However, G&W can still die pretty early, so at worst it's a winning but volatile matchup for G&W 55:45.

I can see Marth, Cloud, and even Lucina being issues, but nothing that isn't winnable for G&W. For example, G&W can destroy Cloud offstage with his very many offstage tools, not to mention neuter Cloud's Neutral B attempts to force approaches, as well as limits his options for what he wants to use when he has the limit break. (Oh god, please kill me later for that pun.) It's definitely 45:55 Cloud's favor, but as I said, the Cloud has to respect G&W's offstage presence and his Oil Panic.

And afaik, besides Neutral B, G&W's bair and nair can provide problems for Marth, bair being able to outspace them fairly well, and nair acting as a pretty good anti-air; Lucina even has it worse than Marth because she doesn't have the tipper hitboxes that Marth has. Also neither character has great landing options, which makes them usmash fodder especially in high %s. In Marth's defense, however, G&W has to respect the tipper. Also both characters have Tilts and Fair that G&W has to be cautious about. Probably 45:55 in Marth's favor, probably 50:50 Lucina, but I'll have to fact-check this/lab it.

I'll double-check with Lord Shade on this too, him being a former Marth main, because I'm not entirely too sure about the Marth matchup myself. Speaking of LordShade, I want to see his perspective on the M2 vs G&W matchup.

Edit: Also one thing that wasn't thrown out, is Jab1 can lead to a grab. That, and he can crouch under a lot of things. It's hilarious how many attacks he can dodge simply by crouching.

Wait what.

I played both sides of the MU and Roy just makes Game and Watch his toy. Roy doesn't need to approach in this MU either. But when they're making exchanges, Roy just wins because his sheer KO potential destroys Game and Watch's weight and Roy's disjoint makes it really hard for Game and Watch to counterattack. In fact, since Game and Watch doesn't fall quickly like Fox, it makes it easier to juggle him up in the air, since he just floats their for an easy N-Air --> F-Air or Up-Air strings.

Somethings to consider Game and Watch can't combo anything on Roy with Down-Throw until 20% to ~65% since he falls way too fast. On the earlier percents before 20% the only thing he can combo into is his neutral-special which is a minimal 9% punish. In fact, he can jump out of Game and Watch's Down-Throw around 10% for any grounded punishes like Jab, nothing is quick enough to register as a combo. Down-Throw --> N-Air connects on Roy up till 65%, at later percents it doesn't connect to anything. This is due to the fact Mr. Game and Watch's Down-Throw not having enough hitstun. This combo does 21% so you can do it 2 to 3 times.

Interestingly, when labbing some Roy stuff. I found out Roy's F-Throw to N-Air can register as a true combo from 0% to ~85%. This is because Roy's F-Throw has loads of hitstun allowing you a big window to punish. Of course, this changes up with DI. If Game and Watch DIs down, he gets placed in a tech chase situation, or Roy can get a run-up F-Smash on him. If Game and Watch DIs up, we can get a semi 50-50 on him through the use of U-Air and F-Air. It's very easy to follow his landing or option if he DIs-up and places him in a really bad position. This combo does 17%.

An advantage for Game and Watch, however, is his amazing crouch. His crouch allows him to duck under Roy's grab, Roy's U-Tilt and Roy's N-Air. Plus Mr. Game and Watch is short enough to avoid N-Air sometimes.

You mention Game and Watch's offstage presence, however, what about Marth, Lucina and Roy's offstage presence too? What kind of landing options does Game and Watch have other than a risky D-Air, trying to land on ledge, or FF N-Air which is Frame 7? imo Marth and Lucina has one of the better landing tools, since their D-Air covers so much space it covers below them.

How is this MU even 55:45 Game and Watch??? It's very favored towards Roy. You can argue 55:45 Roy, but I think it's a 60:40 Roy MU having been on both sides of the MU.

Now with the Cloud MU. The question is... how are you going to get Cloud offstage? What option do you use to get him offstage? He covers and influences so much space that you can't immediately threaten him. A majority of his aerials are also lagless and kill Game and Watch pretty quickly. In fact, Cloud's Limit Cross Slash kills Mr. Game and Watch ~80% with DI. Cloud easily stuffs a majority of Game and Watch's approach options, and can actually take space pretty well from Game and Watch due to his aerials. Unfortunately, Game and Watch is forced to approach versus Cloud due to how defining Limit is. You mention Cloud's Limit holds him back because Oil Panic. Why does Cloud have to worry about Oil Panic? Limit Blade Beam is INTANGIBLE so it cannot be REFLECTED or ABSORBED in the case of Oil Panic. Also, absorbing Blade Beam at midrange from Cloud, where his sword can't immediately hurt you, but far enough where he can safely Blade Beam is a commitment. This is due to how Cloud's raw speed and the small lag Game and Watch has absorbing energy-based projectiles. Now say you find an opening and win neutral. Dash Attack, F-Air or B-Air knocking him offstage. F-Air kills, but even with Game and Watch's offstage presence, it's not a free kill due to Cloud's comparable Air Speed, but superior Air Acceleration to Game and Watch. It's very hard for Game and Watch to get an advantage in this MU. Easily 60:40, but I can be convinced it's also 55:45 Cloud.

Finally the Marcina match-up. I don't see why Marth's tipper would make that much of a difference in the MU, that he goes 50:50 with Lucina. The part Game and Watch has a hard time about is getting-in, not getting outspaced. Since both character's objective in this MU is just to keep Game and Watch away, there reward shouldn't be so significant that their MU spread changes so extremely. Of course, Marth gets more rewarded for keeping you out, since he gets to wall you out with his tipper range. However, I don't see why the MU would be so significantly different because of the lack of a tip. They both get rewarded pretty well, it's just Marth can kill Game and Watch slightly earlier if he spaces well enough. You're looking at this without the perspective of Marth. Marth's F-Air and N-Air pretty much anti-air Game and Watch due to his lack of range. B-Air can threaten Marth...out of a full hop. Unfortunately, since Mr. Game and Watch's B-Air doesn't autocancel out of a short hop, this makes the MU hard since he has an even tougher time invading space, with the presence of Marth's sword denying a lot of his options. Also, in what situation could Game and Watch set-up an Up-Smash? I can see at ledge, however, they have the air acceleration to fade in-and-out for Up-Smash. Since unlike Mario, Game and Watch can't string Marth to force an airdodge to trap him into a Up-Smash. I can see this MU potentially being 55:45, however, I still believe it's 60:40.

Game and Watch I do believe is an underrated character, but despite having disjointed hitboxes, his range is lackluster. Due to this, his biggest weakness is disjointed characters. His kill options are easily outspaced (most notably Up-Smash, it has invincibility though) or have large sourspots (F-Smash and D-Smash). And his safe moves just don't have the kill capacity (F-Tilt and D-Tilt). B-Air and F-Air can kill offstage, but how does he get them offstage? Dash Attack can put him in that advantageous position, but he doesn't have any direct follow-ups to capitalize on this. He doesn't have the tools necessary to open up disjointed characters, other than them making bad decisions in positioning/spacing. His combo game and offstage presence are what make the MUs doable, but using proper knowledge of spacing and positioning makes it very out of his favor.

I dunno man. Tell me something I'm missing. I play Game and Watch for fun, so I have some knowledge on this character.

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A few things to address.

1. G&W has DThrow -> Jab on Roy at low %s. It's basically a free 18% that Roy can't do anything about. Also, none of Roy's ground tools outrange G&W's BAir. His only real option is NAir, but when your neutral revolves around 1 or 2 moves like Roy.....it shows.

2. G&W has Up B, which is intangible frame 5-13. With Roy's 5 frame Jumpsquat and 6 frame NAir, he's not landing that NAir followup, realistically.

3. Marth/Lucina/ESPECIALLY ROY DAir is a horrible landing option that should NEVER be considered.

4. Roy's Recovery is one of the most predictable in the game. Easy prey for characters with good offstage game.

5. Limit Blade Beam is intangible, but it doesn't matter when G&W can still absorb it regardless of positioning. Did you actually lab this?

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After some labbing today.

-Roy can get dthrow-to-jabbed from 0-13%. Roy can't DI out of this.
-Roy can still get dthrow-to-jabbed from 13% to mid 20s. Roy still can't DI out of this. This should be suffient enough to start Dthrow-to-nairing.

-Roy can trade nairs and fairs with G&W's bair. However, if the bair is well-spaced, he can only trade a sourspot hit.
-Roy can trade Blazer with G&W's bair, but a whiff and he's open pray for a grab, or an Upsmash KO if he's at high enough %.

-G&W can DI away+UpB out of Roy's fthrow to nair at 0%..

And after these labbing sessions, if Roy can trade sourspots, it made me realize Marth and Lucina is a bigger threat than I imagined. After this, 60:40 Marth favor is actually justified. Lucina is 55:45 to 60:40 depending on how much tippers actually matter.

I still think Cloud is a 55:45 matchup in Cloud's favor because Cloud has some gaping weaknesses (mostly offstage), and G&W has the tools to exploit them. I just find Marth to be a more overall difficult matchup, honestly because there's less options to expose him. The matchup with Marth is basically this in a nutshell: Outplay Marth or get bodied.

Edited by Falaflame
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After that heated debate, (Which may continue if you lot want but I need to move on characters).

Ness.png

Coming in to a bthrow near you, is Ness, the PSI prodigy.

695284c58eb8b9ff1d0df0906b3c6491.gif


PSI FRAMEDATA!

Anyways Mother Jokes aside

Ness has become quite the contender in Smash 4, from his very good grab game (something he always kinda had) to his very good frame data and combo capabilities, he has finally risen the ranks of Smash to become a threat.

his aerial attacks are all very solid, fair even leads into itself with his very solid jump distance/mobility, he still retains his offstage issues (in particular against Rosalina in this game).

His B moves are pretty solid as well, PK Fire leads into many different attacks upon landing, unless di'd out of properly, PK Thunder is kind of goofy but can be a KO option, PK Flash... Well yeah don't use that unless its friendlies or doubles, even then I'm not sure its worth it. PSI Magnet heals, and while it was nerfed in teams, it can still be used, it also makes you descend slower, (Or is that only Lucas?).

His ground moveset is pretty fast, although somewhat lacks range, but his smashes can make up for that, his Yoyo smash attacks while not the best can catch someone offguard or do some funky gimp shenanigans, while the bat just SMASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHES YOUR FACE IN. Ness also has a really good pummel on his grab, and did I already mention bthrow? The best kill throw in the game and one of the safest kill confirms in the entire game because Ness is fairly quick, not to mention his grab isn't laggy at all.

Others probably have alot more to say about Ness so I'll let you all do that.

Edited by Jedi
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All I can say is that a For Glory Ness is a giant annoyance to fight when they seem to believe spamming PK Fire is the only way to victory to be continued by a grab and then dodgerolling for everything in between. At least I see Lucas players keeping it interesting much more frequently than they do but I apologize to any Ness mains out there who actually try to play him well.

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his recovery is TERRIBLE. if his DJ doesn't get him to the ledge, he should be dead. you can hit him out of his up b startup easily. if you're gutsy, you can try to absorb the PKT1. you can also run into PKT2, tech the stage, and laugh as he fails to make it to the ledge since it shortens upon hitting something.

PK fire should rarely if ever work since SDI lets you buffer roll, attack, or jump faster than ness can grab you (or anything else). i've done it time and time again with falcon amd marcina. this might not be true for large characters.

his nair is secretly fantastic. it's fast, has a good angle, and has nice kbg. his grab game, for the record, is probably the worst in melee, with the second smallest grab range (which is inside him) and no tools to force people to shield enough for him to be on top of them for a full 7 frames. anyway, it's no secret that ness is profoundly rewarded for landing grabs.

autocancel dair is a fun and efficient movement option. it lets him reach the ground faster.

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