Smash 4, Character Discussion Revised (#35 Pikachu)

[Raguna]

Good stuff Raguna, I pretty much agree with your whole post, although you think its better if Lucario is in a position where people are forced to approach him? I think I can see that, but I've never heard his few players really describe him as defensive! Probably because some people think being more defensive has some negative connotations or something.

I wouldn't exactly either, but I based it more on my personal experience rather than his known players and on some info I could find on how his odder moves works so there's bound to be some errors on my part. I'd say it's more that a really high aura Lucario is scary to anyone especially if they have an Aura Sphere ready to dish out so the opponent will be a lot more careful. The Lucario itself will probably try to get as offensive as they can, but they have a nice option to throw out from long range in the case they want some space.

I also remembered something about MU's and he does pretty great against opponents that have trouble knocking the opponent off and I think he can go 50-50 with Sheik. I also avoid using Marth against him since it sometimes evolves into the same issue of just making him harder for me as he gets stronger.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Raguna

[Jedi]

Marth vs Lucario sounds incredibly janky in Smash 4, Tipper or Aura, how would you like to die.

[Elieson]

Marth should beat out Lucario six ways to sunday simply because tipper kills early as fudge and only luke's slow as heck specials can safely outrange Fair/Nair/FSmash/Dancing Blade/etc

[Jedi]

Now its time to move forward once again.

The Frame Data from Nowhere

Lucas the protagonist of Mother 3 makes his return, still showing off his differences to Ness, he also focuses on getting a good grab for some combos or killing, he has the rope snake as a means to help himself get grabs, and its one of the fastest tethers in the game, also helps quite a bit in the recovery department, as PK thunder isn't always the easiest thing to use.

His specials are fairly standard, although PK Fire is really good as a poking tool, along with wave bouncing and B-reverses, you can effectively space out your opponent with uses of Fire and a mid air Rope Snake, Lucas has fairly solid aerials with little bits of PSI disjoint, including a meteoring bair, which comes out fairly quickly, nair combos super easily from dthrow and various other moves, his uair is a nice headbutt, and his dair can be a decent landing, fair is pretty standard.

Lucas's mobility is overall average, having better jumps than most, but not having any spectacular speed, mostly just "average", Lucas's tilts are decent for getting someone off of you and possibly chaining into a grab, he has several mix ups off his moves including his jab, getting grabs is usually a good thing for Lucas, also while he may not be quite as solid as Ness, I feel he has a better overall matchup against Rosalina due to the way his recovery is in comparison, among other things. His smash attacks pack a powerful punch but are also pretty laggy.

I honestly dno too much about Lucas aside from his aerials being able to juggle heavies fairly easily too.

Opinions on the boy from the game that STILL hasn't been localized?

[Refa]

I literally can't play as Lucas, so I got nothing.

...Seriously, when is Nintendo going to localize Mother 3? I'd be pretty hype for that. Might even get me to...buy Lucas!

[General Horace]

forever salty that he isn't wolf, wolf is way cooler. The worst part is his PK Fire spam makes me super salty too. I, uh suck at actually playing him so that's all I got.

[Batter the Beast]

PK FIRE

Woo Lucas, hailing from the greatest game ever made, Mother 3 I'd complain about the lack of it in the US but the fanslation is so good that I don't actually mind it too much. In smash, he's a weird combination of zoning and combos, leading to a character that can keep many others at bay, while punishing with long, highly damaging combos if he hits the right moves. He has a bunch of flaws, however, like difficulty landing, short range on normals, and somewhat low speed that hinders him, but I think he's underused and there's some Japanese player, don't know the name, that does pretty well as Lucas.

[spoiler=Ground Normals]

Jab 1 - Sick 2 frame jab, good get out of jail free option and good to mixup with since it has a low FAF of 20

Jab 2 - Followup that will almost always hit also good to mixup with since it has a low FAF of 20

Jab 3 - Slightly laggy jab finisher. Unsafe on shield

Dash attack - Pretty laggy dash attack that comes out slow with ok range and sends at a decent angle. Generally not worth using

Ftilt - Quick poke to throw out in neutral. Good w/ pivot as a "get off me" option

Utilt - Decent OOS option that covers all around lucas and sends upwards at a combo angle at low%. Sometimes used to extend combos on platforms or if they DI low. Unsafe on shield. Comes out at a swift frame 4.

Dtilt - Basically used in the same way as a jab mixup, but sacrifices 1 frame of startup (starts on frame 3) for a nasty FAF of 16. Can jablock.

Fsmash - Comes out REALLY fast at frame 14, reflects on frame 10. Not a move to throw out often but is very good as a surprise KO option as it's very hard to react to

Usmash - Super slow, super laggy, but KOs super early. Only use on hard reads, it's really unsafe to try using it (FAF of 99, Yikes!). Has a bunch of random intangibility for some reason

Dsmash - Good at covering ledge grabs due to the huge hitbox. Unsafe on shield for the first and 2nd hit, somewhat safe on 3rd if it's not a powershield. Generally only used to cover the ledge, it's unsafe to throw out randomly.

[spoiler=Air Normals]

Nair - Combo bread and butter, very damaging and sends opponent at a weak upwards angle for more hurt. Can be SDI'd out of if the Lucas doesn't stick to the opponent. Safe on mixup against certain characters.

Fair - Spacing tool, can KO in certain situations if sweetspotted. OK to approach with if spaced properly, otherwise the shieldstun is too small

Bair - Good spike, good to mixup high % combos, can combo into upair if opponent doesnt tech and DI's poorly.

Uair - Decent, fast KO move. Worse hitbox than Ness'. Combo finisher. Can be used after dthrow at high %s for a KO. ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ HOO HAH ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ

Dair - Good spike, hits several times so it's easier to 2 frame with than many other aerials, combo mixup option, mixup option on shield.

Zair - Fast poke. Unsafe if opponent is close. Crucial move in neutral. Tether has a very long distance.

[spoiler="Grabs & Throws]

Standing Grab - "Tether" grab with less range and lower FAF than others. Lowest FAF of any Lucas grab

Dash Grab - Same range, 10 more frames of endlag. Generally, try to avoid using this except on punish

Pivot Grab - Disgusting range, 10 more frames of endlag. Good option to throw out sometimes to punish a bad landing

Fthrow - Generally used for getting opponents offstage and not much else

Bthrow - Kill throw at high %s

Uthrow - More reliable kill throw at high %s

Dthrow - Combo throw

[spoiler=Specials]

Neutral Special - PK FREEZE. Surprisingly safe and can cover a large range. Use against really long range opponents. Memorize freeze timings to start pressuring opponents out of a freeze.

Side B - PK FIRE. Fast projectile that generates a larger hitbox on projectile clank, making it win many projectile wars. Stupid good with wavebounce as it pushes Lucas back really far for more spacing. Pushes Lucas backwards slightly if not wavebounced.

Up B - PK THUNDER. Very laggy compared to Ness'. Can be used to pressure opponents offstage, but will end up helping more often than hurting.

Up B (PKT2) - Absurd range. Doesn't KO that early and can be contested quite easily. Still, can recover from the corner.

Down B - Recovers a LOT of % and has a decent hitbox that sends opponent at a low angle. Good spacing tool with wavebounce

[spoiler=General MUs]

Lucas doesn't like fighting swordies as they can outspace him. Cloud vs Lucas is interesting as Lucas can abuse him offstage in theory and get him into bad angles with PSI magnet, as well as forcing him to approach with long range pressure on top of absorbing blade beams, so Cloud needs to approach, something he doesn't like doing w/o limit.

Projectile users are Lucas's favorite MU as he can either outprojectile them with PK Freeze and Fire, or nullify the other dude's projectile game with his quick Fsmash and energy absorption. Sheik is one of the few characters that can outprojectile Lucas cause needles are broken.

Vs rushdown, Lucas suffers up close but is annoying to close the distance against. Lucas can't afford to be predictable here, but can get sick combos off punishes more often.

Shoutouts to Rosaluma since zair and side B can just poke Luma and don't have to be as close as Ness when he's recovering and have a tether option. IDK if the MU is good or bad but it's interesting

[spoiler=Stages]

FD - Best, Lucas loves zoning and punishing landings

Duck Hunt - Good, Lucas can zone well here and the ducks generally won't screw up his zoning

Smashville - Good, basically FD with a moving platform

Town & City - Ok, becomes FD sometimes, low ceiling for early upthrow KOs

Battlefield/Dream land 64 - Ok, good for extended combos but hard to space on

Lylat - Bad, tilting screws up side B and zair spacing and can ruin recovery

Lucas is a pretty tech-heavy character who doesn't reward that tech a lot. He's mid tier or high mid tier, and IMO can only go up since he's very underplayed and that one Japanese player is probably going to push his meta.

[Jedi]

What would you say Ike's best options against Lucas are? Because I've met a few Lucas's in bracket before that gave me some issues and my record against them is spotty.

I hate nair so much in that MU.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Jedi

[Comet]

ike seems screwed. powershield pk fire and rush him, then hope for the best. you could full hop and see if that works, since fair should cover you well.

[Batter the Beast]

What would you say Ike's best options against Lucas are? Because I've met a few Lucas's in bracket before that gave me some issues and my record against them is spotty.

I hate nair so much in that MU.

Fair spacing. Lucas doesn't have a good answer except going in, which isn't that great of an option since Ike can just jab Lucas or grab him, or run & gun, which is what Lucas will probably do anyway. Don't be too predictable with fair though since Lucas can punish a fair if hes right outside the hitbox with grab, which is the one thing you don't want Lucas to get. Also, abuse the fact that Lucas has trouble KOing since his only real options are killthrows, a random fsmash, or HOO HAH if the DI is poor or he reads the airdodge. Make note that you can easily down B his PKT2 recovery to make him think twice about using it.

[Jedi]

Thank you, I'll work on that next time I face off against them.

[MrStardustRicon]

Hooray, Lucas, one of my favorite characters in smash personality wise, the protagonist of one of my top 10 favorite games, and my main since brawl!

Lucas is an exceptional character that rarely gets used due to imo a stigma surrounding him that he is just a "worse Ness". However, Lucas has a considerable number of differences to make him unique from Ness to make him a high tier character in my eyes.

Ground Normals

Jab - One of the best Jabs in the game, starting at a staggering 2 frames, this move can interrupt and beat out plenty of other characters normals to lead into other things from Lucas. The second jab can be cancelled out to lead into a grab or any of your other normals.

Dash Attack - A great tool for punishing a bad landing or some other laggy finish that you can't reach by walking or dash grabbing. Launches at a pretty nasty angle to get back from and leads to a nice edgeguarding opportunity. Pretty laggy so don't throw it out too often.

Forward Tilt - An okay poking tool an nothing else, it can Jab Reset at higher percents, but other moves can do that as well. The best use of this move I've discovered is run away pivot f-tilt, this makes it a decent spacing and poking tool that's pretty safe. Mediocre overall.

Up Tilt - An alright OoS option and a punish to whiff dash-grab or dash attack attempts. At lower percents it can lead into some combos, and can kill at later percent. However it is only okay as in most situations you can get a grab as a punish instead leading to much much more of a punish.

Down Tilt - Easily your best tilt. Comes out fast at frame 3 extends into your jab, or combos into your grab. Puts on excellent shield pressure. Honestly not much to say it's great.

Aerials

Nair - This move in theory should be great, it picks up opponents off of the ground or air, and sets up for a follow-up opportunity. The problem is that it's easily SDI-able and a Lucas should never be able to get two in a row. However we can follow the SDI to get the complete move. Overall this move is just okay.

Forward Air - This one of Lucas' three best spacing tools, with a deceptively large disjoint and a huge sweetspot on it dealing solid damage this is a great move. Low landing-lag on it really allows it to be used with confidence and near edge or on stage it can be used to kill effectively.

Back Air - While not it's correct usage this is another one of my favorite spacing tools. Long reach, long active frames, and medium landing-lag. The Meteor hitbox on it is somewhat tricky to hit, but after you learn it's sweetspot it's a great edguarding tool. While it isn't the safest tool, it's still a good one.

Up Air - I'm in a love-hate relationship with this move, what it's theoretically supposed to is juggle opponents like it was in brawl. However the hitbox on this move is very laughable as it only goes straight up rather than the arc it is supposed to have. Regardless it has low landing lag and can kill out of a down throw for a true combo.

Down Air - I'll be absolutely honest with this move, it's bad. Characters fall out of it like a warm knife through butter. The last hit has a meteor effect on a specific sweetspot and while you can use it for edguarding, you're better off using bair. The best use for this move is a retreating tactic with full-hop dair.

Smash Attacks

Forward Smash - What first appears to be a worse version of Ness' forward smash is actually a more practical version of it. While it is weaker than Ness' it is also MUCH faster thus making it more useful as a kill move and reflector. You don't need to be nearly as afraid to throw this move out, however still be mindful of how you can be punished for it. There are combos into this move at specific percents, such as zair -> FSmash

Up Smash - The big one that most people recognize with Lucas. Extremely strong with MASSIVE endlag on it, you're only gonna want to throw this thing out if you have a great read on someone or recognize their habits. It can scoop certain characters off of the ledge to pull them into the full smash attack, but that's only if their heads are poking out, and even then it's still extremely risky.

Down Smash - My favorite of Lucas' smash attacks. most useful for covering the ledge and people heading towards it, it's unfortunately got a quirk of only having one hit being active. So if you shield the first hit of DSmash then the hitbox for the second and third hit will deactivate. Very strong nonetheless and will kill opponents at very early percents.

Specials

PK Freeze - This move is alright, you can use it as a punish tool, or to force a specific recovery option. While the options for this move is slightly limited it should be mentioned that if you have the move explode (just letting go of it) then it will have less endlag than ftilt, so it's a deceptively fast and safe move.

PK Fire - This move. Is. Awesome. A great zoning tool that piles on damage, can combo into aerials at close proximity and can be completely safe through using B-reverses and wavebounces. It can also kill. There honestly might be nothing this move can't do.

PK Thunder - Lucas' recovery special, has much more length than Ness' and doesn't shorten the length if someone jumps into it. You can recover from pretty much the blastzone with this move as long as you have a proper angle. Unfortunately this move barely has any offensive usage due to the incredible amount of endlag this move has.

PSI Magnet - This move is primarily used to absorb energy based attacks, and while it's perfectly fine just using it like that, it also has a hitbox that sends opponents at a frightening angle to recover from and can also be used to stall your own recover or reverse your momentum.

Rope Snake

Grab - Lucas' grab might possibly be the best in the game, long range, short recovery period, down throw leads into literally anything you want, and you have three kill throws. Absolutely stellar.

Down Throw - Lucas' best throw, leads into any aerial you want as well as footstool related combos that can kill as early as 60

Up Throw - Not much to this throw besides being a solid Kill throw

Back Throw - Not as good as Ness' but still gets the job done

Forward Throw - Can be used as a DI mixup to get an annoyingly early kill, force opponents offstage, and not much else.

Overall for kill throws reliability is probably
Back Throw at ledge > Upthrow > Back Throw > Forward Throw.

Zair - This is Lucas' second best zoning tool. Great range, no lag, leads into kills if opponent doesn't tech, and can be used as a recovery options.

MUs

Lucas has a very solid MU chart only losing to probably five characters overall. The Hardest of those being the likes of Sheik, Cloud, Diddy Kong, Corrin, and probably Mega Man FUCK LEMONS ARGHH

The Rosalina MU is even but it's annoying as shit.

Stages

Battlefield - okay, you gain platform combos, but make footstool combos harder. Also hard to zone because it's a shorter stage.

Dreamland - A better Battlefield.

Lylat - Okay, you can get some jank throw stuff on this stage and laugh as your opponent wonders why they died to a back throw at 70. The tilt is annoying for zoning, but that's the only problem to the stage.

Duck Hunt - Okay I guess, long stage for zoning, however Lucas doesn't have an answer for being camped out on top of the tree.

Smashville - Neat, shorter stage that hinders zoning but other than that it's Lucas' playground.

Final Destination - Great, just plain open space for effective zoning and combos.

Town and City - Lucas' best stage, it's a long stage that you can zone really well on. You can also get really early Up Smash or Up throw kills because of the shorter ceiling.

Lucas is a great character that has a lot of depth that hasn't been tapped into yet due to the lack of players repping the character, however we're rising in numbers and skill, so one day soon people will realize how terrifying Lucas truly is.

Edited July 11, 2016 by MrStardustRicon

[Jedi]

Two extensive Lucas experts, goodness.

Also Stardust you mentioned that Lucas could benefit from this new discovery?

[MrStardustRicon]

Yeah, it's small, and I already mentioned it in my overview of some of the moves. Zair to FSmash is now more true due to this discovery. It was already true if they missed the tech (which was common due to the short tech window), however now it's completely true about 20% of the time.

Video Demonstration

https://youtu.be/kUwNCrFM2EU

[Jedi]

Wow, thats quite safe if it happens. I'll have to keep a lookout for that in the Lucas MU.

[MrStardustRicon]

Lucas is looking really bright in the future. Plenty of us are just now starting to push the limits of the character and really find out what this character can do. I love playing Lucas and can't see myself playing someone else as my primary main anytime soon. As it stands right now I believe that Lucas is better than Ness, but only the future can determine if I'm right on that sentiment.

[Jedi]

Lucas is looking really bright in the future. Plenty of us are just now starting to push the limits of the character and really find out what this character can do. I love playing Lucas and can't see myself playing someone else as my primary main anytime soon. As it stands right now I believe that Lucas is better than Ness, but only the future can determine if I'm right on that sentiment.

I'd love to learn more how Lucas rolls sometime, maybe we should do some matches again.

Alright folks its time to move forward.

(Image from Kurogane)

The Mean Green Frame Data

Luigi, a constant in Smash. He's packing a really solid kit in this game so you'd best be careful, Luigi has an insane combo game, if he grabs you especially. His frame data is also super good, and his nair is pretty deadly to get hit by, Luigi's biggest threat is when he is close to you, where one hit is all he needs to start sending your % skyrocketing into the stratosphere.

Luigi's main means of approach, since he's slippery and slides all over the place, is his fireball, which travels straight. This annoying little projectile can confirm him a grab if he hits you with it, best be careful of it, no matter where he is, Luigi's main weakness is his traction as mentioned, he slides even while in shield from attacks, people with projectile heavy games can keep him at bay, although if they can't get through his simple fireballs it won't do much good, disjoint is also good against him such as swords.

However he has quite the number of strengths, good jumps, 3 moves to use as recovery, although kinda mediocre at best by themselves, they can all chain off each other, (exception is up b of course), but his Tornado can be mashed to become a good recovery, and its also a really good attack that can disrupt opponents, and land solid hits, Luigi's aerials are all really really really good, they combo like crazy, they hit hard, so all he needs is a good down throw to start a pain train. his grounded attacks are pretty solid too, comboing fairly easily, and his smashes pack a huge punch, also he has something that only a select few characters do, his usmash a powerful headbutt has invincibility frames on it, so he can shrug off alot of attacks, while performing usmash, making it a very safe and deadly option. Also a deadly punish is his Up B when sweetspoted becomes a very very powerful attack, that can kill fairly easily.

Luigi in the right hands, is a very devastating fighter, his awkward and floaty nature are kind of hard to adjust to, even fighting it, its almost like fighting a Drunken Master version of Mario in how he moves and reacts to attacks.

Seeing as I don't have all that much Luigi knowledge, some more from you folks would be appreciated! I'm starting to kind of use him casually in Smash 4 on the side, just for giggles, its part of what I do during this series on the side when I can.

Opinions on the Green One?

Edited July 13, 2016 by Jedi

[Anacybele]

YAYZ, I really love Luigi! <3

I grew up with him after he became the first video game character I ever took a liking to when I was a little kid. He remains my no. 1 favorite video game character to this day while sharing the spot with everybody's favorite blue-haired mercenary leader. And he's been a Smash main since I started playing Smash at all. :)

But I wouldn't say he's THAT slow. That speed bar should have a little more color in it, imo. Right now, it makes it seem like he's Ganondorf levels of slow. I'd color in two or three more of those arrows in the bar. His running speed isn't really that slow, and his attacks all come out pretty fast.

As for what I can add, you basically hit the nail on the head with all the basic stuff. So all that comes off the top of my head atm, is that he can juggle at least some characters with up-tilt for a massive damage increase. It's sooo crazy. XD

[General Horace]

luigi tornado gimps make me so salty, as does luigi in general

other than that I know nothing about him except he has ezbake throw combos and his nair is ridiculous

[Jedi]

YAYZ, I really love Luigi! <3

I grew up with him after he became the first video game character I ever took a liking to when I was a little kid. He remains my no. 1 favorite video game character to this day while sharing the spot with everybody's favorite blue-haired mercenary leader. And he's been a Smash main since I started playing Smash at all. :)

But I wouldn't say he's THAT slow. That speed bar should have a little more color in it, imo. Right now, it makes it seem like he's Ganondorf levels of slow. I'd color in two or three more of those arrows in the bar. His running speed isn't really that slow, and his attacks all come out pretty fast.

As for what I can add, you basically hit the nail on the head with all the basic stuff. So all that comes off the top of my head atm, is that he can juggle at least some characters with up-tilt for a massive damage increase. It's sooo crazy. XD

Now, the Kurogane stat things are kind of overdone/underdone, but I'm pretty sure Ganondorf had one tick for speed I think his slipperiness hampers his speed a little though because you have to stop, and then you're just slipping awhile!

Yeah Utilt is really good, especially on heavy characters like Bowser & Dedede.

[General Horace]

Luigi has the second worst airspeed in the game, and he's below average speedwise on the ground. It makes sense.

[Jedi]

Oh yeah thats right, He's super floaty and doesn't go very fast, I guess i'm just used to the tornadoweegees. Making him zoom all over the map.

[Anacybele]

Now, the Kurogane stat things are kind of overdone/underdone, but I'm pretty sure Ganondorf had one tick for speed I think his slipperiness hampers his speed a little though because you have to stop, and then you're just slipping awhile!

You're right, it does hamper his speed a little, but not THAT much, I would say. Oh well, at least Luigi remains good! I still don't like how he got nerfed from S tier. I mean, I was fine with him being nerfed, but not by THAT much. :(

[Elieson]

Strong attacks on shield push luigi back, making it harder for him to approach safely. Many many Other characters lack this weakness

[Jedi]

You're right, it does hamper his speed a little, but not THAT much, I would say. Oh well, at least Luigi remains good! I still don't like how he got nerfed from S tier. I mean, I was fine with him being nerfed, but not by THAT much. :(

I don't think the nerfs hit him, too harshly, I mean he isn't as widely used now, but his dedicated players are still doing quite well. Such as Mr.ConCon.