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Jedi

Smash 4, Character Discussion Revised (#35 Pikachu)

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Only thing I know about For Glory Ness:

If they recover low, jump down and take the hit and tech it.

Most dickish way to get a kill off him.

Love doing that. Bonus points if you absorb it, or if you're G&W, just simply bucket it.

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Ness is a very easy to pick up character, but suffers a lot a the top level due to low mobility, range, and terrible recovery. I think he's still top tier in doubles because of his kill potential, powerful aerials, and healing capability (even though it got nerfed). A lot of people were saying early on that Lucas was inferior to Ness. I actually believe the opposite, where Lucas will potentially perform better at top level than Ness (its starting to show with Taiheta's results and Fow's results dropping/inactivity).

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A few things to address.

1. G&W has DThrow -> Jab on Roy at low %s. It's basically a free 18% that Roy can't do anything about. Also, none of Roy's ground tools outrange G&W's BAir. His only real option is NAir, but when your neutral revolves around 1 or 2 moves like Roy.....it shows.

2. G&W has Up B, which is intangible frame 5-13. With Roy's 5 frame Jumpsquat and 6 frame NAir, he's not landing that NAir followup, realistically.

3. Marth/Lucina/ESPECIALLY ROY DAir is a horrible landing option that should NEVER be considered.

4. Roy's Recovery is one of the most predictable in the game. Easy prey for characters with good offstage game.

5. Limit Blade Beam is intangible, but it doesn't matter when G&W can still absorb it regardless of positioning. Did you actually lab this?

i'm syrprised that i missed this. marcina's dair is actually a usable landing option since it covers the sides. it's not something that should be relied on, but it can work.

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pk thunder uwaaaah

Ness really struggles in today's top level meta due to a plethora of reasons that Knife elaborated on. Overall I believe he's a character that can/will continue to thrive in mid to low level play however struggle with his obvious faults at high level play. When you know how to play around a Ness he REALLY struggles.

imo his best tools are as follow:

Nair - frame 5, great OoS option with pretty good knockback

Up air - Ridiculous in range (it has a disjoint) and a decent landing option while still being a nice killing option

Fair - excellent spacing tool

DSmash - Nice edgeguard potential even with it's nerf from brawl.

PK Thunder - Good sharking tool that could also be used to gimp lesser recoveries with the tail.

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Love doing that. Bonus points if you absorb it, or if you're G&W, just simply bucket it.

No, I mean take the hit from NESS being the projectile.

It greatly shortens their recovery distance if they hit something on the way to the ledge.

You either tech, or you die.

Edited by shadowofchaos

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PK FIRRRRRRRRRE

ok i have nothing else to contribute

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Infamous for his turtle playstyle, its Olimar!

Olimar.png
Frame Data & Pikmin information

Olimar, certainly a strange character who utilizes the titular pikmin to help him out, he's a very defensive character, his pikmin can play good keepaway with disjoint (although they count as projectiles rip). They also have various attributes and uses, such as Blues being better at throwing & surviving, Purples doing hefty damage, Red's being resistant to fire based damage (surprisingly common in smash).

Olimar is also a very small target to hit, which adds to his more defensive nature, his attacks tend to hit multiple times, he can be somewhat unpredictable and since he isn't used near as much as he was in Brawl, people lack general knowledge of the MU which can lead to an advantage to his few users. As stated, he has a bit of weird disjoint due to his Pikmin which to nonswordies can be a bit of a hassle to deal with, Olimar's recovery is pretty lackluster though and easily predictable, the less Pikmin he has though the more free movement he gets, although they tend to want to keep Purples, because that damage.

A friend of mine used Olimar and he could zone pretty well, although if I broke into said zone he had a bit of a tough time throwing me out of it.

I dno too much about him so what about the rest of you?

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No, I mean take the hit from NESS being the projectile.

It greatly shortens their recovery distance if they hit something on the way to the ledge.

You either tech, or you die.

I know. I was just adding on more ways to add insult to injury by simply disabling the missle in the first place.

As for Olimar, I have 0 experience with him, Matchup or anything. So I have nothing to say here.

Edited by Falaflame

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I don't always play Olimar (at all), but when I do, I ask, "Where are the Rock Pikmin?"

One of the most satisfying things in Pikmin 3 is literally throwing rocks at your problems to smash through them.

Can Olimar effectively fight characters with reflectors at all? Also, do reflectors stop his grab?

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Can Olimar effectively fight characters with reflectors at all? Also, do reflectors stop his grab?

yes. no.

most of his attacks have good frame data but terrible properties since they're treated like items, which means you can hit his attack and then hit him. oh, and he's not as dedicated to playing keep-away as in brawl, which is nice. i still dislike fighting him though.

Edited by Comet

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I know. I was just adding on more ways to add insult to injury by simply disabling the missle in the first place.

As for Olimar, I have 0 experience with him, Matchup or anything. So I have nothing to say here.

But teching something that would kill you is more satisfying.

But yeah, Olimar:

No one knows how to use him. So when I run into one that does, they just win.

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Time for that other rare character, that if someone uses you know they know how to use them.

Pac-Man

PAC-MAN.png
Wakka Wakka

Oh boy Pac-Man, where do we even begin, his style is pretty much item manipulation and using his funky moves to throw you off guard, he has some pretty abusable item dropping power with his Key, his grab is probably the worst in the game, his smashes are oddly disjointed, his aerials are kinda lackluster, but he can really mess with you.

Like so https://oddshot.tv/shot/Dabuz18/UzrpIsbfpItPeYndUAHFm6SX

His hydrant can be used offensively or defensively, Pac-Man isn't much of an approach character, he's more of a mix up-defensive character, he also has some offstage shenanigans with his trampoline, and pellet specials, which can also throw people off, basically Pac-Man is one of the strangest characters in the game aside from G&W and shouldn't be taken lightly if your foe knows what he's doing, also he's one of the harder characters to even remotely think of comboing because he can get out of aerial chases with a hydrant drop.

Heck I've managed some odd things with him myself, like with his paralyzing projectile. (Note I don't really use Pac that often but in Ironmans you kinda have to, also randoms)

So anyways, whats your guys opinion on the Pac-Warrior?

Edited by Jedi

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I want to try maining Pac-man and bring the arcade experience to my hapless opponents.

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I love PacMan but he's just so hard to pick up. And Mastering PacMan? LOL. That's a joke of the decade.

He's really fun to play and it's even more fun to mess with your opponents with PacMan. Once you get in their head you're not getting out of it. That being said, if anyone knows the PacMan matchup, it becomes significantly harder to win, especially if the opponent is good at item play. As a M2 main once told me about his matchup vs Pacman, grab his apple/bell/somekindoffruit, keep hold of it, and he'll go to a corner and weep, because Pacman's approach options are just that bad. And the reason he hasn't seen much use in high level play recently is because of those blaring weaknesses.

That being said, Japan WORSHIPS the retro characters there, PacMan being No1 out of the three retros. Play a Japanese PacMan main and you'll be flabbergasted how they play him.

I'd offer my insight on the G&W vs Pacman matchup but, I've never fought an actually good PacMan, so I can't really tell you. But again, from what I read on both Pacboards and G&W's boards, it feels like a 50:50 matchup.

Edited by Falaflame

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That lasted about as long as I expected... Whoops

Palutena.png
Framedata of Light

Pretty Palutena, one of the weirdest characters to tier, period, first she was seen as awesome with customs, then pretty bad without them, but now people are giving her results without customs, she's been jumping all over the list for the period of time this game has been out.

Palutena has some of the most laggy tilt attacks in the history of smash brothers, yet oddly her smashes aren't nearly as laggy? Her jab is pretty solid, really fast with a minor disjoint that leads into grabs, Palutena is a pretty grabby character, she has a number of setups and kills pretty well with uair out of grabs, her aerials are all pretty solid overall, covering different options depending on what move it is.

She has the longest reaching usmash in the entire game, her recovery while predictable can be ledge canceled for some fast offstage actions, Palutena has pretty good mobility as well, I think her main issue is getting ko's safely however, she needs to work fairly hard for her kill, but her disjoints and multi hit attacks, not to mention her grabs can throw off even the most seasoned of veterans.

Ask ZeRo.

So opinions on the Goddess of Light? I'm no expert by any means so more information from people who play her (Hint hint Tsunami get in here). Would be nice

Edited by Jedi

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Her upsmash is obnoxious. Everything else is manageable (some might say a bit too manageable), but getting killed super early by something that shouldn't even be hitting you triggers me.

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Upsmash when ppl are on the ledge, and nairs/uairs for days. I really don't like how her smash attacks don't have hitboxes in their entire "what you would think would hit" visual area.

I enjoy her stupid moves though...probably only disliking her pitiful COUNTER.

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Her counter is so bad. Like, incredibly bad. It makes no sense to me! I think it's even worse than Peach's counter.

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Palu's jab is a good long range poke, leads into grabs and mixups. When she does her back air and dash attack, if I am correct, the shield part is intangible; she interrupts attacks that hit it.

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Palu's jab is a good long range poke, leads into grabs and mixups. When she does her back air and dash attack, if I am correct, the shield part is intangible; she interrupts attacks that hit it.

Yeah the shield is intangible, which can make trading with those attacks incredibly awkward haha.

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One of my favorite characters. She's very.. different, but I find her fun to play as.

She also has Side-taunt, one the best taunts in the game.

Edited by Tsunami922

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Reflect does have a hitbox, albeit very tiny and close to her proximity

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Jedi, why'd you already stop the Pacman discussion? I found this awesome channel with advanced Pac-Tech!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br3nKDDzhgA&list=PLNX4AF-_45VptsQZlddlAhZ5l0iJ1RJIQ&index=1

Pac-Man is a fun character. All of his specials are versatile and he can spend a huge amount of time offstage. His constant grin is a sign that he's always having fun. However, he has three big weaknesses -

1. His grab is garbage, the worst in the game. It starts as slow as Link's, ends as slow as Samus's, doesn't reach as far as either, and has 7-frame gaps where the opponent can't be grabbed at all. WHAT THE F***? This severely weakens Pac-Man's neutral game and makes him mid-tier at best.

2. Pacman's KO options are limited outside of complex traps. In Training I used Mario's default position on Omega Battlefield to see how early Pac-Man's moves KO.

[spoiler=Kill Percents]

Strong

F-Smash: 95%

Power Pellet: 110% (Can KO under 100% offstage.)

Good

U-Smash: 115% (Vertical knockback.)

D-Smash: 115%

Bonus Fruit Key: 125%

Decent

Hyrdrant Deflect: 135%

Bonus Fruit Melon: 140%

Bonus Fruit Apple: 145% (Vertical knockback.)

B-Air: 145%

Last Resort

N-Air: 160%

B-Throw: 165%

Unique

Bonus Fruit Bell paralyzes opponents, leaving them open for a KO.

Bonus Fruit Orange can stop horizontal recoveries.

3. Pac-Man's best setups require a Bonus Fruit in your hand which is very tricky to get, and if the opponent steals your fruit things can get ugly.

Edited by Zera

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