Smash 4, Character Discussion Revised (#35 Pikachu)

[General Horace]

Bowser's kind of weird. He's pretty fast for a heavy (even his airspeed isn't terrible like most heavies) and some decent moves, his jab is very good and he has stuff like a command grab, and a fantastic grab with decent follow ups at low/mid %'s, but he's juggled super easily and he doesn't have the best options in the air. Not to mention two great tools in bowsercide and his uthrow kill confirm were taken away from him for some reason. His recovery is very punishable too.

[Jedi]

Bowser's kind of weird. He's pretty fast for a heavy (even his airspeed isn't terrible like most heavies) and some decent moves, his jab is very good and he has stuff like a command grab, and a fantastic grab with decent follow ups at low/mid %'s, but he's juggled super easily and he doesn't have the best options in the air. Not to mention two great tools in bowsercide and his uthrow kill confirm were taken away from him for some reason. His recovery is very punishable too.

Yeah, quick characters like Sonic and Falcon can ruin his day pretty easily once they get him off stage, among tons of other people.

But IF he can get his grabs and zoning game working, and the player has their fundamentals down, I can see Bowser being potentially dangerous, which is usually why I respect Bowser players typically, because if they stuck with him, they must know what they are doing to stay alive (Or they just really like him of course too), my logic about it anyways.

[Shin]

He has a few neat strings with his throws, but otherwise he kinda struggles to do stuff. A lot of his kills rely on set-ups and they're kinda telegraphed. He has a few neat tools but really struggles when he has to go on the defense. He's also combo food which kinda sucks. He's not that awful, but he's not particularly good.

[euklyd]

Bowser can charge an fsmash through Meta Knight's rapid jab, he's clearly top tier.

[Zera]

Did they fix Bowser's side-b yet? I don't even use Bowser, but that nerf was gross. Bowser is on top for crying out loud! There are SO many other ways he could've been nerfed instead!

Edited May 26, 2016 by Zera

[euklyd]

The nerf was the fix :^)

[Jedi]

Did they fix Bowser's side-b yet? I don't even use Bowser, but that nerf was gross. Bowser is on top for crying out loud! There are SO many other ways he could've been nerfed instead!

He shouldn't have been nerfed period. He's not a high level threat by any means.

[Comet]

Bowser is cool. His jabs and f tilt are safe on shield. His down tilt might be too, but I doubt it. Calling people out for shielding with Bowser Bomb is amazing. He doesn't have any escape options, which leads to him struggling to reset neutral once he's hit.

[Jedi]

You can also catch the edge with a well placed Bowser Bomb, making his return to the ground at least a little easier.

[euklyd]

dtilt does like a billion damage if you land both hits so while it might not be safe on shield, it's definitely safe on shield if you use it a second time

[Refa]

Genuinely curious here, what are Bowser's safest moves that he can just throw out*? I get punished on like every move ever on the rare occasion that I do play as him, so it'd be nice to know!

*Or the closest thing to it, considering that he is well...Bowser, after all.

[euklyd]

Genuinely curious here, what are Bowser's safest moves that he can just throw out*? I get punished on like every move ever on the rare occasion that I do play as him, so it'd be nice to know!

*Or the closest thing to it, considering that he is well...Bowser, after all.

pivot ftilt, jab, ac fair, probably

I don't think you're supposed to be just throwing out moves with bowser, though

bowser bomb is the safest tho, since it shieldbreaks on block

[Knife]

Didn't really have anything to say about Bayonetta. Still in that weird post nerf state.

Bowser is second best super heavy after DK and considered mid tier. Suprisingly good run speed. His major issues lie with an edgeguardable recovery, bad approaches, very slow jumpsquat, and poor landing options which are really bad weaknesses to have in Smash 4. On the other hand he has great damage output, throws, and kill power while having pretty average frame data. I don't think hes quite solo viable because top tiers take advantage of those weaknesses very well but he can be a pretty good CP character especially against slower characters.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Knife

[euklyd]

Can confirm, #3 in NorCal actively uses Bowser as a counterpick. And also to dick on scrubs aka 90% of the rest of the region.

"god norcal is free"

Edited May 26, 2016 by Euklyd

[Jedi]

Didn't really have anything to say about Bayonetta. Still in that weird post nerf state.

Bowser is second best super heavy after DK and considered mid tier. Suprisingly good run speed. His major issues lie with an edgeguardable recovery, bad approaches, very slow jumpsquat, and poor landing options which are really bad weaknesses to have in Smash 4. On the other hand he has great damage output, throws, and kill power while having pretty average frame data. I don't think hes quite solo viable because top tiers take advantage of those weaknesses very well but he can be a pretty good CP character especially against slower characters.

Who would you say of the top group gives him the absolute most trouble? Sonic? Sheik? Diddy?

[euklyd]

I'm no expert but I feel like Cloud would give him a lot of trouble. Hard to get in vs. Cloud, and landing becomes impossible.

[Knife]

He probably has terrible MUs against all of them tbh, even Rosalina who is slower. I think his best top tier MU is Fox or Mario actually, but he still loses.

[Jedi]

I see, Is his minor advantages on Mario and Fox because of his long reaching limbs?

Oh I'm probably going to move onto Jr here shortly, I dno if theres too much to discuss overall other than what we have.

[Shin]

Bowser's reach is actually pretty deceptive, he's also fat like Horace.

[Jedi]

Very apt Shin (Go ahead and confirm my question if you'd like Knife, but I'm gonna move on to someone who probably won't last long)

(Image from Kurogane)

General Frame Data and Various things

Bowser Jr, looked to have solid defense at release, but over the course of the game has really struggled to find a place, and with his best player (Tweek) , not even playing him anymore, his future doesn't look so bright currently.

Bowser Jr has quite a number of odd tools, however his heavy weight, lack of good KO options, fairly lackluster speed, and other things tend to hamper him heavily, he has some interesting projectiles and combos from his side B, and he can do some interesting things with his Up B, setting up traps in certain moments, but they aren't quite quick enough to be like devastating.

I see Bowser Jr alot more in team play than I ever do in singles, overall he seems more like he fits a support role, and without that other person, he doesn't have too many things going for him in the one v one arena.

He can tank quite a number of hits at least. I myself don't have much experience using him so I don't have too much to say.

[General Horace]

a lot of his moves just don't work or have bad hitboxes (especially dtilt and jab) and he has a bad grab and loses really hard to shield. His projectiles are way too slow to be useful (unless you have time to set up a mechakoopa). He has some heavy duty combos but are really telegraphed. His aerials are decent I guess.

Roy Koopa best koopa

Edited May 27, 2016 by General Horace

[Jedi]

a lot of his moves just don't work or have bad hitboxes (especially dtilt and jab) and he has a bad grab and loses really hard to shield. His projectiles are way too slow to be useful (unless you have time to set up a mechakoopa). He has some heavy duty combos but are really telegraphed. His aerials are decent I guess.

Roy Koopa best koopa

The only combos I can think of that aren't telegraphed in advance are like a quick side B into aerial attack. His aerials are ok, but I find their reach to be really lacking.

Ludwig best koopa

[General Horace]

Fair and Bair have pretty great range. I forgot about nair though, it's pretty balls.

SideB is easy to read, and it starts like 90% of his combos, it's one of his biggest issue other than a garbage grab game and bad jab.

[Jedi]

Oh right, my inexperience at the character is showing lol.

if his smash attacks were like slightly faster I think that could be a start of being better? Because those are pretty good at hitting fairly heavily and multiple times.

[General Horace]

I'm pretty sure Fsmash is safe on shield, and Usmash isn't terrible, but dsmash is one of the worst in the game and all his smashes are incredibly punishable if they whiff. They're not his overlying issue though.

If they fixed his dtilt so all the hits actually landed (it's very fast) it'd help, along with maybe some armour on his side b so he could go through some weak projectiles like an uncharged arrow or peanut instead of being knocked out of it by anything would help too. And some grab follow ups. His Bthrow does solid damage, but he has 0 followups out of throws in addition to an awful grab.