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Smash 4, Character Discussion Revised (#35 Pikachu)


Jedi
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Zard's one good thing is his grab. He's a heavy with a big hurtbox so the top tiers love the combos they get on him but all Zard needs is a few grabs to ruin your day since he has a HOO HAH and upthrow is the strongest killthrow in the game IIRC. But nah screw that its more fun to spam FLARE BLITZ and get to 160% from sheer recoil or SD by Flare Blitzing off the stage.

EDIT: Oh yeah, Zard loves stages like BF, T&C, and DL64 since he can get early KOs with upthrows off the high platforms

Edited by Batter the Beast
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how could you forget ebola back throw batter

zard is fun, but he sucks

his grabs are good and his jab is great, but other than that he's pretty bad.

with enough rage you can cheese heavies/fastfallers with bthrow flareblitz and kill them at like 10% though, it's hilarious.

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nah man ebola kills at the edges at like 75, Charizard needs like 95% and rage to kill off a BF platform

Zard is more likely to have rage though I guess. Fly kinda blows as a kill option, people fall out of it really easily. Bair is hilarious when it sweetspots though

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It's always amused me at how safe down smash can be sometimes, in certain situations and I always forget about it when I'm fighting a Zard.

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Seeing as its been a little bit, here goes the next character!

Cloud.png

(Image from Kurogane)

Frame Data and Various other Things

Cloud the MC from Final Fantasy 7 makes his smash debut, in this game he sports an impressive moveset, with speed to boot, as well as his powerful limit system, his faults lie mostly in his grab game, poor recovery and mostly thats about it? His moves are fairly swift, barring a select few, Cloud also has excellent spacing, due to the fact that well, he wields the Buster Sword, keeping opponents out of his zone, and allowing himself to charge more limit, heck just the threat he has can be intimidating. He has some juggling capabilities as well, and he's just generally fun to use.

Over the course of being in the game Cloud has received a few nerfs, namely limit taking longer to charge and Finishing Touch not being quite as easy to kill with, but even so he's a huge threat, many pros put him in the top 10 on where they'd rank him, despite his drastic offstage weaknesses.

Opinions on the Soldier?

Edited by Jedi
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Those are barely even slaps on the wrist, let alone nerfs.

Cloud excels at safety and dictating the pace of the match. Not sure what else to say. Contender for best in the game imo, definitely top 5.

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Those are barely even slaps on the wrist, let alone nerfs.

Cloud excels at safety and dictating the pace of the match. Not sure what else to say. Contender for best in the game imo, definitely top 5.

True, but I prefer to call them nerfs, even if they weren't too significant.

You think he beats out Sheik, Diddy and Rosa potentially? Among the other contenders too.

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I think it's possible. He has no? losing matchups, or at least very few (and if so, he doesn't lose by very much), and his strengths are incredible.

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I suppose? I mean I could see him losing against a number of them, provided they get him off stage, or combo him, he's decently heavy afterall.

Its amusing because he has tons of tools, but also has the ability to be cheesed if he gets in a dangerous spot, I assume you're going off Komorikiri's Cloud MU chart?

Edited by Jedi
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I suppose? I mean I could see him losing against a number of them, provided they get him off stage, or combo him, he's decently heavy afterall.

Yeah, but getting in on Cloud is hard.

Its amusing because he has tons of tools, but also has the ability to be cheesed if he gets in a dangerous spot, I assume you're going off Komorikiri's Cloud MU chart?

I've seen a few others as well but yes.
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Ah, my favorite character to use in this game. Cloud is amazing. I can't really think of a bad move he has. all his moves are solid. bair, fair, and dair all auto cancel which is cool. dair auto cancel can lead to many things. Limit cross slash, uair, nair, bair, Finishing touch which now kills around 70%. his grab game is weak, but it can lead to some stuff. you can do dthrow to cross slash mix ups. limit cloud can do dthrow to nair, and ftilt at around mid percents. his recovery is meh but you can work around it. it can be tough to punish sometimes if he is recovering high.The nerfs didn't really do anything to him tbh. I'd put him in the top 5-7 range.

oh cross slash can lock which is cool

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its says a lot about a character's moveset when they have literally no grab game but they're still among if not the best character in the game. Thankfully he doesn't make me salty so I don't care that much

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what

It's discussed at the end of this video briefly

Note on the Finishing Touch stuff this was before it was hit by some nerfs

Edited by Jedi
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Cloud has decent to excellent stats in every category, some sweet limits, and can used fairly effectively in a wide variety of situations.

Yeah, he's pretty awesome in FF7. He's also pretty okay in Smash 4 too, who knew?

I enjoy playing Marth for the same reasons that I enjoy playing...wait dammit, let me try that again. I enjoy playing Cloud for the same reasons that I enjoy playing Marth in Melee. All of his moves are viable to some degree, which gives him a really versatile tool box to play with. While he does have his basic comboes that everyone knows, his moves link into each other in such a way that inspires creativity and make him a blast to play as. The comparisons don't stop there, however, because they both have the same range on their Up B's they both have this awesome killing power outside of the obvious smashes. Melee Marth has his dank spike and Cloud has limits, both of which have moves that can lead into them. Yeah, he has to charge for his limits, but TBH he has several other non smash moves that kill as well, so that kind of makes up for it.

Also he has a sick as hell dash dance and a huge as fuck sword. Guaranteed to be at least OKAY on some level (which is funny, because I used to think that he was mid tier and laughed it off when Euklyd was complaining about him).

EDIT Oh yeah, and they both make you feel awesome when you kill with their Up B's. Cloud's Up B is just fun to use in general, because it's a decent option out of shield but it's also fun to edgeguard with (and also suicide spike if you're the best there ever was).

Edited by Refa
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Yeah, Cloud has a really great dash overall and it can throw people off. I also think its funny I considered him mid-tier when he first came around, so I was unaware why people were complaining when I was using him as well.

Edited by Jedi
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Ah Cloud, the good Little Mac. For instance, he has aerials. Really really good aerials. Like a nair that comes out frame 5 (though admittedly its start point is weird) ,an upair that comes out frame 7 and lasts 14 frames what and a dair and lasts 32 frames, has no lag out of a fullhop, and combos into a bunch of stuff like Limit Side B if sourspotted WHAT. Also bair is a nice fast spacing tool that KOs decently, like a slower Ike bair, and fair is like an Ike fair that comes out slower, deals more damage and can spike. The two big sword dudes in the game have some similar moves, who would've guessed it? But, like Little Mac, his recovery is ass outside of Limit Break, though its not as bad as Little Mac's because he's scary to intercept with his fair and all, he can stall with neutral or side B, and the hitbox extends pretty darn far. Why am I comparing this dude to Mac again?

Limit Break is... not really what defines Cloud, but it is a big part of his gameplay. Unlike every other charge in the game, this move can be cancelled immediately by pressing B, so, unlike say Samus or Donkey Kong, who need to shield or shieldjump to stop charging, Cloud can just stop anytime with like no lag. Supplementing this is the fact that Cloud is a wall of disjoints, so he's hard to approach. Yup, Cloud is a defensive spacing character, who forces dudes to approach cause they don't want Limit Break to charge. Limit Break not only makes his next special more powerful, but each one gets special properties. Up B goes higher and Cloud can snap the ledge, so it's better as a recovery move. It also has more knockback on the initial hit, though Cloud players almost never use it for the KO power. It's also intangible on frames 5-12 despite coming out frame 7. Weird. Side B is intangible on frames 6-11 (although the first hit is on frame 10) and ends 16 frames earlier, making it very difficult to punish. Limit Side B is generally the special that Cloud players will KO with, though Neutral B is also a surprise KO option. Limit Neutral B hits multiple times, can actually KO, and is intangible on frames 10-16, though it starts on frame 16. I guess that intangibility is there to prevent the limit from being wasted by being interrupted. However, Limit Down B has no intangibility, comes out frame 16, and has a whopping FAF of 80. So, it starts slow, and has a lot of endlag so it can be punished hard. However, it KOs off the top really early, although it does 1% of damage. It's really only good for hard reads or punishes, but it's still something to watch out for. Also, "While retaining Limit Break status, all of his attributes change: his gravity, fall speed, fast fall speed, initial dash distance, and running speed are increased by 10%, his walk speed and traction are increased by 15%, and his air speed and acceleration are increased by 20%." Thanks Smash Wiki. So even when he has a fully charged Limit, he can put on more pressure due to being faster overall, and he's not that slow to begin with.

Cloud isn't without his weaknesses though. He has a hard time escaping combos due to not having a get out of jail free nair or other option, his recovery is quite exploitable despite the ways clouds can work around it, and not really having quick kill confirms as his main kill confirm is flying at you with a sword pointing downwards. Oh yeah his throws suck, he doesn't really have a solid killthrow and the followups off dthrow are unreliable, like Side B and dair offstage in some rare cases. Nonetheless, his numerous strengths onstage overshadow his weaknesses, and I think he's top 10 to be safe, though I can see cases for saying he's top 5.

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Cloud's pretty good. I hate his Uair, mainly because I play characters with bad air games

I also don't like how his charged Limit makes him play differently. But that's just me griping.

#I'mTheGuyWhoPrefersCloudInEhrgeiz

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Oh yeah his throws suck, he doesn't really have a solid killthrow and the followups off dthrow are unreliable, like Side B and dair offstage in some rare cases. Nonetheless, his numerous strengths onstage overshadow his weaknesses, and I think he's top 10 to be safe, though I can see cases for saying he's top 5.

Not true, you'll find that his guaranteed throw -> Limit Charge combo works on every character (though not at every percent).

What if Cloud had the same lag as Ike, and Limit Charge weren't so easy to cancel?

Then he'd be worse. Obviously.

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What if Cloud had the same lag as Ike, and Limit Charge weren't so easy to cancel?

Then probably Cloud would just be a faster Ike or almost literally Ike. Ike isn't bad since tourney matches and results put him pretty well. Probably the highest of the FE cast until someone decides to do some tricks or actually play with Roy or we get more data off of Corrin/Kamui. So yeah, he'd probably be around Ike's tier if they had lag and they would probably have pretty even matches.

Edited by Raguna
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