First Elsa and now Captain America too? NOT EVERYTHING NEEDS TO BE GAY

[Phoenix Wright]

why are you so mad that they're gay

it's just fiction. who gives a shit. it's not like we're rewriting the history books to say lbj was gay or something. and even then, that'd only be factually wrong, not necessarily morally wrong.

[Cornguy]

I will say that I would prefer Elsa be single. I just don't believe in Disney leaving a protagonist single, and I would prefer her to be gay than straight. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the last Disney protagonist to end up single was Quasi Moto, and they went out of their way to ruin that with the second movie.

[Rezzy]

I will say that I would prefer Elsa be single. I just don't believe in Disney leaving a protagonist single, and I would prefer her to be gay than straight. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the last Disney protagonist to end up single was Quasi Moto, and they went out of their way to ruin that with the second movie.

Disney sequels as a rule are pretty lousy.

[Time the Crestfallen]

why are you so mad that they're gay

it's just fiction. who gives a shit. it's not like we're rewriting the history books to say lbj was gay or something. and even then, that'd only be factually wrong, not necessarily morally wrong.

Nobody here seems to be mad that they want Elsa to be gay. I personally prefer to imagine Elsa as being asexual, but I won't be losing sleep over the debate (although I'm not looking forward to the fuss Disney's decision will cause).

As for Captain America, I'm annoyed (not mad) because I find the suggestion to be very lazy writing and I'd much rather that they create a new and original gay superhero or give more focus to a superhero that's already gay rather than take an already popular and established heterosexual hero and rewrite them as gay.

[Esau of Isaac]

why are you so mad that they're gay

it's just fiction. who gives a shit. it's not like we're rewriting the history books to say lbj was gay or something. and even then, that'd only be factually wrong, not necessarily morally wrong.

First Elsa is allowed to be gay. Then Genghis Khan. Then the world. :O

Though in seriousness, it's a poor direction to take because it's plainly made to score points with a niche crowd, as opposed to telling an interesting story. It is also a poor decision because it modifies a character with an established identity --at least in the case of Captain America.

[Phoenix Wright]

i see that point. in the case of cpt. america, him being a sleeper agent for hydra of all things is much more of an affront to his established identity, though.

when it comes to sexuality, if it's done in a tasteful way, i don't mind. changing the sexuality of a character isn't inherently uninteresting because i don't think sexuality is as "fundamental" a character trait, so it'll never (to me) feel like a betrayal of character. pandering to an audience for the sake of it is lame as fuck, though.

i will say that it's odd that people seem to be okay with simply relabeling characters instead of having new ones be made.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Phoenix Wright

[MacLovin]

I tend to stay away from this discussion, but I completely agree. Beta Ray Bill's name didn't change when he picked up Mjolnir, why are you trying to make this character into genderswapped Thor? War Machine starts calling himself Tony Stark, "wow, black Iron Man!"

I know I'm a little late, but I like the idea of Elsa being gay. Not so much that I think she should be, but why shouldn't she be? I'm super white and straight, and I can say that we have plenty of characters to relate to. I'm not saying these characters should just be for them either. My fellow white, straight people can and should care about these characters, and hopefully understand them eventually.

As for Cap... I think there's no basis for it in the comics. However, the movies are their own alternate universes, and if they wanted to make him bi(in a gay relationship), it could be kinda cute. I mean, you've got a guy from a time that made it clear that this wasn't okay. He finds out pretty much for the first time that this is a real part of society now, and he realizes he's always wanted this. This sounds like a shoddy fanfic now that I look at it, but for honesty's sake I'll leave it there.

I do think shoehorning these qualities into fiction is a mistake, but leaving them out when you have a clear opportunity to use them well is also a mistake.

Well, there's my rant. Its 7am, it looks coherent to me, but I may need to edit after sleeping.

Jane Foster's Thor is generally referred to as Thorster by the fans iirc.

As for turning established characters gay, I think they did a bit on an alt-universe Wolverine and Hercules getting married. That was kinda interesting,

i see that point. in the case of cpt. america, him being a sleeper agent for hydra of all things is much more of an affront to his established identity.

in the case of sexuality, though, if it's done in a tasteful way, i don't mind. changing the sexuality of a character isn't inherently uninteresting because i don't think sexuality is as "fundamental" a character trait, so it'll never (to me) feel like a betrayal of character. pandering to an audience for the sake of it is lame as fuck, though.

i will say that it's odd that people seem to be okay with simply relabeling characters instead of having new ones be made.

eh i think it might more along the lines of "but we have too many well known Heterosexual-WASP heroes so let's relabel them" mindset that some people go on. I mean I remember hearing that some people just didn't like the fact that a notable number of x-men related characters were Bisexual/Homosexual. Northstar, Anole, Daken, and the Ultimate Colossus come to mind. Time travelling teenage Iceman is also. (I didn't like the way they just had teen-iceman convince adult iceman that he's gay. It just felt like pandering of some sort since it just felt like badly written fanfiction.

I mean when they turned Amanda Waller into a physically fit superspy in the new 52, a ton of people whined about it. Same with turning Lobo into a stereotypical dark, brooding, Bishounen influenced bounty hunter.

Hell, I've heard people complaining about having a Black Nick Fury despite the fact that the Black Nick Fury of the regular is actually Nick Fury Jr. lol.

On topic again: I think that doing swaps of established and well developed character's and their traits isn't exactly a good idea unless you write it very well. But then there's underdeveloped characters within big franchises like Marvel and DC that could easily do it. Hell, Marvel could just make a Netflix series on the Runaways and then put them in the spotlight again. They've got a script, and could just relabel the single mutant to a "miracle" or "Inhuman".

Edited June 8, 2016 by Skurge

[Rezzy]

eh i think it might more along the lines of "but we have too many well known Heterosexual-WASP heroes so let's relabel them" mindset that some people go on. I mean I remember hearing that some people just didn't like the fact that a notable number of x-men related characters were Bisexual/Homosexual. Northstar, Anole, Daken, and the Ultimate Colossus come to mind. Time travelling teenage Iceman is also. (I didn't like the way they just had teen-iceman convince adult iceman that he's gay. It just felt like pandering of some sort since it just felt like badly written fanfiction.

I mean when they turned Amanda Waller into a physically fit superspy in the new 52, a ton of people whined about it. Same with turning Lobo into a stereotypical dark, brooding, Bishounen influenced bounty hunter.

Hell, I've heard people complaining about having a Black Nick Fury despite the fact that the Black Nick Fury of the regular is actually Nick Fury Jr. lol.

On topic again: I think that doing swaps of established and well developed character's and their traits isn't exactly a good idea unless you write it very well. But then there's underdeveloped characters within big franchises like Marvel and DC that could easily do it. Hell, Marvel could just make a Netflix series on the Runaways and then put them in the spotlight again. They've got a script, and could just relabel the single mutant to a "miracle" or "Inhuman".

Even though I belong to the LB portion of LGBT, I recognize the fact that LGBT is a pretty small minority of the general population. Estimates vary widely, but I see 5-10% estimates pretty commonly. So only having a "token" hero being LGBT isn't a problem for me. A sparse peppering of representation is more accurate to the overall populace. I think small steps are good, because if we try overloading people with converted LGBT characters, there's a lot of backlash.

On a tangentially related note:

I like to follow to mantra of gently convincing people over time. Some of the militantly intolerant behavior I see from a lot of the LGBT community makes me ashamed to be a part of it at times.