Best and worst games to dodge-tank?

[henrymidfields]

While I haven't gone very far in my current Fates Conquest game card, I have heard rumors both in and out of Fates that their units fell to enemies with low hit rates. This has got me thinking, and I want to ask the audience:

Which games are the best in investing in Avoid rate, and sideline (or even outright ignore) Defense? Which games have more reliable Defence or unreliable Avoid?

I think a lot of people can agree, and I certainly think, that Binding Blade is one of the most suitable for dodge-tanking enemy attacks. I had so much milage with Thany, Clarine, Sue, Shin, and Fir in which they dodged everything left, right, and centre, with enemy hits under 10% and often even 0%. Even weapon disadvantage only "boosted" hit rates up to 20-25% at most. And because of the frequent doubling and criticals from enemies, I've found Defense-oriented units to be somewhat lacklustre to outright bad.

Shadow Dragon was the other way around, where I had the biggest letdown with Navarre - his avoid seemed gimped (due to the calculations) and he doesn't have the defense to make up for that. I was better off using Draug against physical attacks, or Lena/Maria for tanking magic attacks. (Merric for some reason didn't have as high a Res for that - less than 15. I have to check my old file, but Lena was above 20, and Maria was around 20 too.)

Edited May 28, 2016 by henrymidfields

[Gradivus.]

FE3, 11 and 12 are the hardest to dodgetank, for mostly the same reasons. Weapons are very accurate, terrain bonuses are relatively stingy and avoid is low all the time due to the formula. On Lunatic, FE12 enemies also get a free +10 to +30 bonus to their hitrate. FE12 dodges are even rarer than the occasional FE11 dodges against enemies with unforged weapons.

FE3 is still easier to dodgetank than the DSFEs, but you can very rarely do it consistently because even if you use terrain to your advantage, the enemies tend to have decent hitrates at least (mostly over 50).

Edited May 28, 2016 by Gradivus.

[Reality]

I'll second Shadow Dragon being awful to dodgetanking.

I'd say that Binding Blade or Awakening is best for it. Preferably Binding Blade, since you can make the tank with natural level ups, while in awakening you have to hand out skills, and a few enemy skills exist to help them overcome your avoid, even on axes and weapon triangle disadvantage enemies.

[Magical Glace]

The GBA games have the best dodgetanks, without a doubt. Late game avoid is incredibly high and terrain bonuses are very generous.

Worst is probably FE11, from what I've played. Avoid rates generally suck there due to the stingy formula.

...Unless we're counting FE13 Lunatic +.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Glaceon Mage

[Caster]

You can dodgetank best in the GBA games, definitely. Just due to how avoid is calculated and the fact they usually have a lot of avoid terrain

The worst is FE11 and 12, by far.

IMO Fates is pretty shitty to dodgetank in too

[Shadow Mir]

I'd say Fates is the worst game to be a dodgetank in thanks to low HP in general and the tendency of hit rates so low you'd pretty much write them off as a certain miss in other games to hit home anyway. Sword of Seals would likely be best.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Katie]

If you raise her, Marisa will become pretty much the best dodge-tank in FE8. She'll probably cap speed, can expect to come close to capping luck (generally she'll have at least 25), and she has decently good HP(it usually ends up in the 50s by the time she reaches her max level) so she can stand to miss a few dodges here and there, and is the only character in FE8 who is sufficiently high enough(by my standards anyway) in all three for reliable dodge tanking. This applies no matter which class she promotes into, though Swordmaster has more HP so you might want to go with that. She will cap speed faster as an Assassin though due to Assassin having a higher speed promotion gain, so it's really up to your personal preference. Her dodge tanking abilities are part of why I love her so much. Do note that she joins a bit underleveled, especially on Ephraim's route, so you'll probably want to send her through the tower after she joins so she'll catch up to your units. If you want to boost her avoid even higher, get her in a support triangle with Tethys and Gerik. Take your pick of which one gets A and which one gets B, though I'd probably make Gerik the A as she has a higher base and growth with him. But thanks to her own ice affinity, Tethys's fire affinity, and Gerik's thunder affinity all boosting avoid, her avoid will shoot through through the roof. A 20/20 Marisa in a support triangle with Gerik and Tethys will have an avoid of 111. Plus, both Fire and Thunder affinities also boost her crit rate, which is something both Swordmasters and Assassins want.

It can also be noted that Tethys herself has great speed and luck so she'll be a good dodge tank at first, but she's held back by her low HP, inability to fight, and lack of promotion. She probably won't cap speed or luck due to that last one.

Tl;dr: Marisa is the best dodge-tank in FE8, especially if she supports with Gerik and Tethys.

[Gradivus.]

A 20/20 Marisa in a support triangle with Gerik and Tethys will have an avoid of 111.

It takes a lot more effort than it saves though, considering there are only like 5 chapters ahead of her recruitment that are actually worth caring about

[X-Naut]

The GBA games are the easiest to dodge-tank in because of the 2 RN hit system and the fact that the Hit/Avoid calculations are Avoid-biased (Luck gives twice as much Avoid as Hit while Skill and Speed break even). FE6 stands out in particular because it also has low weapon hit rates (about on par with FE5's, although that game had more solutions) and if you could be bothered to grind supports those with a +Avoid affinity become crazy.

[Katie]

It takes a lot more effort than it saves though, considering there are only like 5 chapters ahead of her recruitment that are actually worth caring about

She joins in chapter 10 Eirika and 12 Ephraim, and 5 is a significant portion of the remaining chapters in either case. Sacred Stones is not a long game. Plus there's also Creature Campaign, which technically never ends. Though raising her is much easier in Eirika mode than Ephraim mode due to her joining earlier and Eirika's route being easier for the most part. I usually don't even have to send her through the tower on Eirika's route.

[Gradivus.]

I'm saying that sending her to the tower and grinding supports is a waste of time, but fair enough that it's possible to train her along the way on Eirika route. She can be competent if you simply promote her after the two rout maps that come after her recruitment, but she'll be closer to 14/1 than anything like 20/20, so her dodge-tanking capabilities will be good on a forest tile, and passable without one, but nowhere near the level of overkill that you described.

On Ephraim, I'd say she's very iffy since the upcoming chapters are very much filled with lances, swords and 2-range. The main reason she gains exp gain well enough on Eirika route is that there are a lot of monsters she can kill with little help.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Gradivus.

[General Banzai]

While not the easiest game to dodgetank due to 1 RN, defensive stats in Thracia are unreliable due to their low caps and the multitude of ways for enemies to bypass defense altogether, making avoid a critically important stat.

Edited May 28, 2016 by General Banzai

[Katie]

I've gotten Marisa to promote at level 20 in a reasonable timeframe and without sending her to the tower, but that's probably because I'm biased and let her get tons of kills. Of course, FE8 is an easy enough game, even on hard, that you can pretty much play it however the fuck you want, and no unit is so bad that they can't be used for the entire game, though some(*cough*Amelia and Ewan*cough*) will likely need a bit of tower grinding to be usable, and Knoll will probably have to stick to summoning because his Def and Avo suck(y dark tomes so heavy). I myself use pretty much every character(though some don't get used in the main chapters) and visit the tower frequently, I like to make sure everyone s promoted by chapter 18, and I usually have everyone max out supports in the tower after chapter 17, when you get Syrene, your final non-CC unit. Plus I'll grind a bunch of money at the arenas in chapters 5 and 10, since there's no easy way of money grinding until late in the game. The massive flexibility is part of why SS is one of my favorite FEs.

Also, during creature campaign, due to buyable stat-boosters, you can turn anyone into the ultimate dodge tank, though for max avoid possible(without taking weapon stat boosts into account) you'll want a unit with a 30 speed cap who has an avoid boosting affinity and at least two support options with an avoid boosting affinity. Meaning Marisa, Tethys, Ranger Gerik, Ranger Neimi, and Rennac are your options there, all of which would have an avoid of 115 with maxed speed and luck and the right supports. If you take Garm, Excalibur, and Nidhogg into account, the latter of which grants Luck+5, while the former two grant Speed +5, you'll have even more options. Here's what the avoid of characters with maxed out stats, wielding one of the above weapons, and a +avoid affinity supported by two other +avoid affinity units would be:

Gilliam wielding Garm 113

Sage Moulder wielding Excalibur 117

JM3 or Berserker Ross wielding Garm 121

Ranger Neimi wielding Nidhogg 120

Garcia wielding Garm 117

Innes wielding Nidhogg 116

Sage Lute wielding Excalibur 117

Great Knight Kyle wielding Garm 113

Great Knight or General Amelia wielding Garm 115

Sage Artur wielding Excalibur 117

Ranger Gerik wielding Nidhogg 120

Dozla wielding Garm 121

Duessel wielding Garm 113

Druid Knoll wielding Excalibur 117

So the highest avoid possible can be achieved using either Ross or Dozla, so long as Ross is supported by anyone but Ewan and in either the Berserker or Journeyman (3) class with maxed out speed and luck(and, in the latter class, having been given at least 3 body rings so he isn't weighed down by Garm) and wielding Garm, or Dozla is supported by Rennac and Garcia and has maxed out speed and luck and is wielding Garm.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Matthewtheman

[Gradivus.]

It's okay, we know that dodgetanking is a viable strategy in FE8. I'm not sure what the point of this 100+ avoid comparison is, it involves disproportionate grinding* and it's lots more than what you need to get through the game, so there isn't much reason to care.

*Even waiting for level 20 to promote is overrated and a meh idea, if you think a unit needs the extra levels between 16 and 20, they may be mediocre anyway and you're just postponing the point where they might become decent. Fwiw, while it wouldn't be my preferred choice, I implied Marisa can do fine with favoritism (without it being an excessive amount), which would allow for a ~level 14 promotion before chapter 13.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Gradivus.

[Lord Raven]

I'd say Fates is the worst game to be a dodgetank in thanks to low HP in general and the tendency of hit rates so low you'd pretty much write them off as a certain miss in other games to hit home anyway. Sword of Seals would likely be best.

It's not the hardest to dodgetank in, but they definitely made dodgetanking more risky and less consistent than it was in Awakening or FE4-10.

[eclipse]

Best: FE6 and its amazing hit rates

Worst: FE11 and FE12, no contest. Even with support bonuses, most units will face actual hit rates, as opposed to the shiny goose eggs in the GBA games.

[Katie]

I'm not sure what the point of this 100+ avoid comparison is

I was seeing what the highest avoid possible in FE8 was. It was done purely for theoretical purposes, and should not be used as some sort of guide on who to use as a dodge tank, except maybe if you're doing creature campaign, as stat boosters are pretty much required to get that level of avoid on most of those units.

[-Cynthia-]

Tellius can have pretty strong dodgetanks mostly thanks to earth supports- EarthxEarth is just crazy.

[General Horace]

Swordmaster Midia in FE11 can have over 100 avoid, doesn't mean it's going to happen (wrt to marisa comparison)

FE4 is pretty dodgetank friendly too, if you get enemies down to 0 hit, they won't even attack you! Best tanking.

But in all seriousness, the GBA games.

[Loki Laufeyson]

I never was able to reliably dodge tank in Shadow Dragon, so everyone saying that its shit for that is right.

Fates is really unreliable with dodge tanking too. I think its above FE11, but still a thing.

Best: GBA titles and Tellius. Half the time, i cant even get hit by guys in late game Tellius. (and that includes RD)

[The DanMan]

Shadow Dragon (due to the nerfed avoid formula) and Fates (due to the hybrid RN making hits land more often period) are the worst.

Respect the axe or it will disrespect you.

In general, the GBA FEs are the best for dodgetanking (probably why they're on the easier end of the spectrum difficulty wise).

Edited May 28, 2016 by The DanMan

[The Draco Knight]

Best: the GBA games, in particulary FE6 with the crappy hit rate some weapons have, but I want to add FE4 and 9 too because, aside from the bosses, there weren't many enemy able to hit you

Worst: I agree with those who says Shadow Dragon: not only the enemy has decent stats; they also has decent weapons, especially on the hardest modes.

Btw, I don't think Fates Dodge tanking is that bad: I mean, I was able to get, most of the time, hit rates between the 40 and 50%. Or maybe I'm just too lucky on Conquest.

[Shadow Mir]

It's not the hardest to dodgetank in, but they definitely made dodgetanking more risky and less consistent than it was in Awakening or FE4-10.

The issue is, the low HP values tend to push Fates over the edge into worst game for dodge tanking territory IMO.

Btw, I don't think Fates Dodge tanking is that bad: I mean, I was able to get, most of the time, hit rates between the 40 and 50%. Or maybe I'm just too lucky on Conquest.

As stated earlier, dodge tanking as a strategy was all but destroyed in Fates thanks to lower HP totals - and it doesn't help matters that there are ways to get around evade tanking.

[Lord Raven]

The issue is, the low HP values tend to push Fates over the edge into worst game for dodge tanking territory IMO.

You're confusing "Dodgetanking is viable but risky" for "bad for dodge tanking" because FE11/12's avoid formula allows in no way for dodge tanking.

HP values are low but if you put like Hana in the middle of some axe users with a Sunrise Katana she is able to dodge many of them. Just because displayed hit = actual hit doesn't make it the worst. Meanwhile, put a max speed Luke as a Swordmaster in the same scenario in FE11/12 and he will dodge significantly less.

As stated earlier, dodge tanking as a strategy was all but destroyed in Fates thanks to lower HP totals - and it doesn't help matters that there are ways to get around evade tanking.

Destroyed != nerfed. Edited May 29, 2016 by Lord Raven

[Leif]

The DS FE's were pretty bad, that's for sure. I think Fates's dodge-tank game is awful too. My worst reset had me to redo the entire Conquest Endgame because a Ragnarok!Malig Knight managed to kill my weakened Sniper!Mozu with a 29% hit rate. Ugh. Mozu's crap HP didn't help and it was my fault for not giving her an HP tonic, however it was still pretty lame to have that happen.

For both games, I focus on getting rid of as many enemies as I can because I don't want to rely on luck/dodging, period.