Best and worst games to dodge-tank?

[henrymidfields]

For Fates, I remember someone - I think it was over at GameFAQ - that they did some calculations and saw that anything over 50% is 2RN (thus skewed to hit more often), but under 50% is 1RN (not skewed to miss). Is that what we are talking about here?

Edit: Oh wait, Serenes has it: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=61231&page=6

Edited May 29, 2016 by henrymidfields

[Caliban of Sycorax]

I've noticed FE6 tends to be generous to your allies in regards to Speed. Coupled with ridiculously low weapon hitrates, and the general low Skill of a lot of enemies, your units will be dodging a lot.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

I agree with those who say the GBA ones are best for dodgetanking, due to a strong weapons triangle, meaningful terrain bonuses, and support boosts.

However, I do want to plug Genealogy for a minute - since the Holy Weapons give ridiculous boosts, some of their wielders can dodgetank like crazy. Shanan (with the sword Balmung (giving +10 Skill and +20 Speed) was my best unit for his godly dodginess, and I've heard great things about whoever wields Forseti (also offering +10 Skill and +20 Speed) - yes, I missed this tome on my first time through. I also married Adean x Azel and Raquesis x Jamke. I promise not to repeat these grievous mistakes.

[Thor Odinson]

Having done both Fates and SD/NM, SD is by far the worst for it. New Mystery is slightly better than SD because at least a Swordmaster with max spd can get hit rates down to ~30 against a Berserker in Lunatic, but hit rates under 50 is so rare in SD that I operated under "every hit will hit when it comes from the enemy" and is pleasantly surprised when I somehow dodge 1 thing.

Fates, I can still toss Ryoma in the middle of everything and let his vantage/dodge/astra-dual guard hybrid tank take over. Getting hit by a 2% sure as fuck sucks, but that's something that also happens in the 1RN games so Fates can't be counted as worse. It's certainly not as powerful as in GBA due to the RN system change, but it's way better than Shadow Dragon even for units who aren't Ryoma.

I remember once Celice got hit by a bunch of 2% hp->1 tomes and that was awful

Edited May 29, 2016 by Thor Odinson

[Gradivus.]

because at least a Swordmaster with max spd can get hit rates down to ~30 against a Berserker in Lunatic,

I've never found myself in such a scenario personally, I recall placing like, Spd-capped Sirius on a mountain and he still faced around 60 hit from a forged Tomahawk

Supports allow this to be a bit lower, probably in the low 40s at worst, but those chances pop up more rarely on Lunatic than being able to dodge unforged brave weapons, bolganones or swarms in SD H5 with a high-Spd unit. In my experience anyway, it occurred often that brave lances on enemies have 50-60 hit on my axe users, so while it's bad, there are a few scenarios where a 25%-40% chance dodge can save your life.

It's nitpicking between very bad and slightly worse though.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Gradivus.

[Thor Odinson]

I've never found myself in such a scenario personally, I recall placing like, Spd-capped Sirius on a mountain and he still faced around 60 hit from a forged Tomahawk

Supports allow this to be a bit lower, probably in the low 40s at worst, but those chances pop up more rarely on Lunatic than being able to dodge unforged brave weapons, bolganones or swarms in SD H5 with a high-Spd unit. In my experience anyway, it occurred often that brave lances on enemies have 50-60 hit on my axe users, so while it's bad, there are a few scenarios where a 25%-40% chance dodge can save your life.

It's nitpicking between very bad and slightly worse though.

I got SM Palla to hit 30 with full whitewing (-Est because fuck Est) support. It's very situational, but I remember it was a player phase occurence that I went for to save me from having to do another heal, anyway.

I mean yeah, NM is still awful to dodgetank in, but I'll take the grand...3 times or so I pulled this off versus in SD where I just gave up and pretended avoid doesn't exist for the player completely.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Thor Odinson

[Katie]

Awakening Normal Mode is another game that's good for dodge-tanking, what with the high stat caps, pair up bonuses, and a variety of skills and such that can boost your avoid, not to mention dual guard, which isn't quite the same as dodging but it does the same thing(i.e. prevents the enemy from hitting your unit). It's not uncommon for me to be up against enemies with a 0% hit rate in Awakening. I do specify Normal Mode because I'm fairly certain it's nowhere near as viable on higher difficulties, particularly Lunatic and Lunatic+. Though I've never done the higher difficulties(except one time where I tried Lunatic and ended up ragequitting during Chapter 2), so I wouldn't really know for sure. The only FE I really ever play on a higher difficulty than the easiest one is FE8, where even the Hard Mode is easy, and even then I still pick Normal most of the time.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

I agree with those who say the GBA ones are best for dodgetanking, due to a strong weapons triangle, meaningful terrain bonuses, and support boosts.

However, I do want to plug Genealogy for a minute - since the Holy Weapons give ridiculous boosts, some of their wielders can dodgetank like crazy. Shanan (with the sword Balmung (giving +10 Skill and +20 Speed) was my best unit for his godly dodginess, and I've heard great things about whoever wields Forseti (also offering +10 Skill and +20 Speed) - yes, I missed this tome on my first time through. I also married Adean x Azel and Raquesis x Jamke. I promise not to repeat these grievous mistakes.

Any Holy Weapon with a Speed bonus automatically makes a unit game-breakingly dodgy, but I wouldn't say FE4 is the most dodge-tanky game because a lot of units get the shaft with Dodge, due to FE4's high weapon weights and related formulas.

[Reality]

I want to say that the Tellius games are semi-bad for dodgetanking as well.

Like a lot of the swordmasters can get away with it for 6~ levels after you recruit them, but afterwards they don't seem to dodge that much, and when you get close to endgame (in both 9 and 10) they suddenly become a liability even with good level ups.

The Telius Pegasus knights get away with it much longer, but certainty aren't as dodgy as they are in Kaga's games, GBA, or Awakening(even before skill boosting) . The other main Telius dodge-candidates are certain laguz, but I feel like they stop relying on their avoid as time goes on as well!

It's not as bad as Shadow Dragon and New Mystery, but I think it's the 2nd most dodge unfriendly in the series.

[henrymidfields]

I want to say that the Tellius games are semi-bad for dodgetanking as well.

Like a lot of the swordmasters can get away with it for 6~ levels after you recruit them, but afterwards they don't seem to dodge that much, and when you get close to endgame (in both 9 and 10) they suddenly become a liability even with good level ups.

The Telius Pegasus knights get away with it much longer, but certainty aren't as dodgy as they are in Kaga's games, GBA, or Awakening(even before skill boosting) . The other main Telius dodge-candidates are certain laguz, but I feel like they stop relying on their avoid as time goes on as well!

It's not as bad as Shadow Dragon and New Mystery, but I think it's the 2nd most dodge unfriendly in the series.

How exactly do they become bad in Tellius? Is it the enemies in later chapters having weapons with much better hit rates (particularly Silver ones) or being classes with higher stats?

[Shadow Mir]

You're confusing "Dodgetanking is viable but risky" for "bad for dodge tanking" because FE11/12's avoid formula allows in no way for dodge tanking.

HP values are low but if you put like Hana in the middle of some axe users with a Sunrise Katana she is able to dodge many of them. Just because displayed hit = actual hit doesn't make it the worst. Meanwhile, put a max speed Luke as a Swordmaster in the same scenario in FE11/12 and he will dodge significantly less.

Destroyed != nerfed.

Ok, so it's better than the DS FEs in terms of dodge tanking. but that ain't saying much. Anyways, stuff like Poison Strike, Certain Blow, etc. do a number on dodgetanking in Fates.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Lord Raven]

I'm not saying it's the best strategy or even particularly great, i'm just saying there's worse games.

[Inference]

I've never run into as much enemy-biased RNG in Shadow Dragon as I have in FE14. No matter what the displayed hit is in FE14, I'm consistently getting hit at percentages lower than 20 and missing at 80%+. FE14 is the only game in recent memory where this has been such a huge problem.

[Thor Odinson]

Afaik last I checked up on the regression project Fates is said to be 1RN below 50 and 2RN above? TBH I miss a lot in GBAFE too--people /think/ Dream of Five is 1RN when we didn't touch FE7's RN system at all--but if you're hitting consistently 80s you're still bound to miss due to the number of enemies you face. FE7 and FE8 are both easy so it's not a big deal if you whiff something, at least--that's probably what makes it more noticeable.

Awakening Normal Mode is another game that's good for dodge-tanking, what with the high stat caps, pair up bonuses, and a variety of skills and such that can boost your avoid, not to mention dual guard, which isn't quite the same as dodging but it does the same thing(i.e. prevents the enemy from hitting your unit). It's not uncommon for me to be up against enemies with a 0% hit rate in Awakening. I do specify Normal Mode because I'm fairly certain it's nowhere near as viable on higher difficulties, particularly Lunatic and Lunatic+. Though I've never done the higher difficulties(except one time where I tried Lunatic and ended up ragequitting during Chapter 2), so I wouldn't really know for sure. The only FE I really ever play on a higher difficulty than the easiest one is FE8, where even the Hard Mode is easy, and even then I still pick Normal most of the time.

I'd say avotanking at least on select characters (Wyvern Panne, for example, can stack Even Bio/Tantivy/Quick Burn for some hella dodge--similarly with Wyvern Lon'qu, but sub Even Bio for Avo+10) is doable on Hard. It's definitely pretty unreliable on L and downright not happening on L+ thanks to Hit+20 on the former and Hawkeye on the latter. Panne can still pull off avotanking the non H+20/Axebreaker, less-accurate enemies on L, though, otherwise.

Unfortunately, Haxforge Rexcal happens to be... pretty accurate.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Thor Odinson

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Dodgetanking in CQ is possible with something like a haxed up Felicia, so 11 and 12 takes this on the bag

Edited May 31, 2016 by JSND

[Inference]

I'm probably biased based on the fact that my Marth has a penchant for dodging lethal blows, and Barst doesn't take shit from cavaliers.

Fuck, who am I kidding; I know I'm biased.

[Katie]

I don't remember the DS FEs being that bad about dodging, but it's been a while since I've played one, plus I play on Normal, and if you guys are doing higher difficulties that could be a factor.

[Thor Odinson]

I've played SD on Normal, H2, and H5, and NM on all modes except Maniac (figured I'd just skip straight to Lunatic)

I don't remember dodging being viable in any of them.

(for me, dodgetanking starts being viable when hitrates are consistently sub-30 on a given character for at least a significant number of enemies, being able to dodge 50-80s sometimes isn't dodgy enough to constitute dodge tanking, but dodging things occasionally with that is of high statistical probability. It's not something I'd expect on single occurrences or base a strat around, though.)

Edited May 31, 2016 by Thor Odinson

[Magical Glace]

The only DS FE character I've ever gotten to be decent at dodging things is FE11!Marth, and it was incredibly unreliable.

Certainly nowhere near the level of the GBA games or Normal/Hard!FE13. Or even FE9.

[Katie]

I've played SD on Normal, H2, and H5, and NM on all modes except Maniac (figured I'd just skip straight to Lunatic)

I don't remember dodging being viable in any of them.

(for me, dodgetanking starts being viable when hitrates are consistently sub-30 on a given character for at least a significant number of enemies, being able to dodge 50-80s sometimes isn't dodgy enough to constitute dodge tanking, but dodging things occasionally with that is of high statistical probability. It's not something I'd expect on single occurrences or base a strat around, though.)

Makes sense. Now that I think on it, I can't really recall getting sub-30s on a character for at least a significant number of enemies either. I definitely remember being able to get sub-50 hit rates though, which makes the odds technically in your favor, but I definitely agree that's not reliable enough for viability. But again, it's been a while since I played the DSFEs, so my memory could be wrong. I will admit though that my dodge-tank standards are a bit lower than yours, as sub-40s is where I draw the line for whether or not dodge tanking is viable, rather than sub-30s. But I can't remember if I was able to get sub-40s very often, I'll have to play the DSFEs again to know for sure.

[SageHarpuiaJDJ]

FE6 is easy to dodge tank because of luck playing a role? That explain a lot actually considering how much Rutger/any sword user with low luck got hit by 20%-30% axes.

I can generally agree with the GBA's being the easiest to dodge tank. Can't talk about others but rn Fates trolling rng makes me wonder what's the best method of tanking at all when I get RNG screwed in 5 battles in a row.

[Katie]

I've been playing the original Mystery of the Emblem, and dodge-tanking is pretty much impossible in that one without taking advantage of supports and/or terrain bonuses, due to the fact that speed and luck cap at 20 and the formula is simply speed + luck + support and terrain bonuses unlike most games where it's (speed x 2) + luck + support and terrain bonuses. There's no weapon triangle either, so you can't take advantage of that either. The lack of a weapon triangle is ultimately probably a good thing though, since you get literally no axe users in book 2. Thankfully, even if a weapon weighs you down, it doesn't reduce your avoid, unlike later games. But yeah, I think I'd even be willing to say FE3 is worse than the DSFEs for dodge tanking.

Looking at the avoid formulas though, I think I know why the DSFEs are so bad for dodge tanking. It's because unlike most games, avoid isn't (Speed x 2) + Luck, it's Speed + (Luck/2).

[henrymidfields]

Looking at the avoid formulas though, I think I know why the DSFEs are so bad for dodge tanking. It's because unlike most games, avoid isn't (Speed x 2) + Luck, it's Speed + (Luck/2).

Man, no wonder why Navarre sucks at one of his job discriptions (dodge tanking) unlike Rutger or Lon'qu. But then again, the usual formula would beef up the enemy's avoid and make Darros (or even Barth) a poor shot.