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Do not think that Fire Emblem Fates is a cash grab!


Harvey
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Now after the reveal of Fates being as three separate games, many think that the game ought to be as one full package rather than split and that its a cash grab for Nintendo doing this as it ruins the experience.

This is not true at all.

These are the reasons why I say so.

1. Its too expensive to bring all three games to one: Think about it for a second. Either one of these games alone costs about 1 GB which is the same size as that of Kid Icarus Uprising. Adding three games in one is going to make it expensive because its basically three games bundled in one.

I can say the same thing about Metroid Prime Trilogy which just basically modify's the game engine and only makes the graphics better. Yet, for the time of its release, it ended up being too damn expensive unlike now where its cheap.

But for Fates, unless the next generation comes, its impossible to expect the game to come at a cheap price for 40$ because again, you get three individual games and since the special edition is sold out, it'll be even more expensive to restock them and make them cheaper. Removing the art book and some other goodies can't possible cutshort the price tag.

2. There's no definitive ending : I've played all the three games and they are made in such a way that the games have their own independent story. Yes, some chapters play similar and there's some reference in the other paths as well but they don't do enough to make you think that the games are the same nor do they do anything ridiculous that you need some knowledge from the other game to play this if you want to get a better story because these are just minor and really don't ruin the path that you choose to play.

3. Its to please fans: Those like me who loved Awakening is where Birthright is all about and those old fans who want Fire Emblem on what its suppose to be is Conquest. That's it, its as simple as that. Its to please us that this is being done and rightfully so because I'm glad that I got Conquest first and then Birthright because well....Birthright has some flaws atleast for me.

And as for Revelation......honestly, I can't think why they even decided to do this path because its basically to satisfy the Fates players and it doesn't feel like its a standalone game and since it tells you to play both Birthright and Conquest, I'm going to say that it acts as a DLC rather than its own game.

And finally it comes to this.

4. Its not Pokemon! : Think of it. If it does feel like a cash grab, then how is it that when you choose a path, you can't recruit units that are against you? For Pokemon, for whichever game you pick will have certain pokemon exclusive to each version so you require to trade in order to get those pokemon so in a way, Pokemon is kind of a cash grab even though these Pokemon aren't really required to fully enjoy the experience unless you wish to catch all pokemon.

Here, it does none of that. You pick a path, you're stuck with the units that you deal with. And the units that you get on either side are balanced enough that you won't feel any regrets that these guys are weak on this side compared to the other. The only thing is that the designs of the character may affect whether you will like this path or not and for me it did because I didn't find the designs of Birthright all that great except for a few so I picked Conquest instead because I like the designs there better.

And really, why are you ranting over this? We should all be happy that Fire Emblem is getting the fame that it rightfully deserves. We should all be happy that an IP that was once a niche one next to F-Zero, Advance Wars and many more is now a Major IP for Nintendo!

Why? Why complain when we're winning here?

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Hey, TC.

If I have to move one more of your misappropriated topics, you're getting a warning. The first time was bad enough.

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The reason people are complaining is that the quality of the game is poor. Making 3 separate games is an extremely ambitious project, and I applaud them for that ambition. However, we, the consumers, don't want 3 mediocre games. We only ask for 1 game that gets about half as much effort as IntSys put into the 3 games cumulatively. People call Fates a cash grab because because IntSys deliberately chose to prioritize quantity over quality when they decided to make 3 games in the first place.

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Quality of conquest's gameplay is very high - on par with that of RD. Quality of world-building and story is the worst in the entire franchise. Which means it IS a cash grab. The ambitious RD didn't demand additional money for playing different sides of frontlines. This game does. And unlike RD, it throws shit at you instead of proper motivation for the main plot. And there are actually a lot of similarities between this game and RD, so i don't compare them just out of the blue. We still have only one fire emblem, but what nintendo did with this title is absolutely disgusting. I just hope that some miracle will allow them to make a proper world and story in the next title. At least, they managed to get gameplay on very high and fresh level.

Edited by Avestus
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Meh, in my opinion:

1. The content didnt have to be spread out across three games. There's a lot of filler just to make the three paths the same length. In Birthright and Revelation especially.

There's also the argument to be made that Radiant Dawn was also a long ass campaign that featured opposing playable armies and it was all included in one package.

2. Birthright and Conquest both fail to resolve plot points that come up in each path and that are relevant to the story of each path, like the beginning video with Azura, her song, Garon's evilness, etc. So I can't say I feel they're standalone, complete stories. Also, Revelation is obviously the canon path, the main villain and true threat are both reserved for that path.

3. I mentioned it in another thread, but I don't think there needs to be a version divide between new players and older fans. I think if the game is good we can all enjoy it for what it is, even if it isn't exactly like our favourite game. I like Conquest the most of the three paths, but I would've preferred one version with grinding available if it meant a more polished story, better pacing, etc.

4. I actually see it the opposite, Pokémon not being a cash grab. Those games don't encourage you to get all versions, because connecting with players who have the other version to get the monsters that aren't in your version is a major part of the gameplay. The story is pretty much always the same across versions so you don't miss anything there.

But with Fates, if you want to get the whole story and get the whole playable cast, you need to buy all versions, and the game really pushes that on you with constant "I wonder what siding with the other country would've been like..." and teasing answers being in the other versions.

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The main reason people believe its a cashgrab is because there are other games in the genre with multiple routes like Soul Nomad and Tactics Ogre and they don't charge you extra for the privilege of playing them.

That and the way IS is pimping out the game with cheesy merchandising and godawful DLC practices (seriously, fuck on-cart DLC).

Edited by Dark Sage
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Part of the reason the story suffered is because they decided to cast a wide net, this net saved the franchise in Awakening. There was no guarantee Fates would be a success just because Awakening was, this was a test to see where their audience really was. Conquests maps were refreshing and amazing for a fan who played Blazing Sword and saw those three storylines, the only thing I wish they'ed done was add secret items and chapters like in Blazing Sword. Birthright was Awakening light with dragon veins that gave people more time to love the individual characters and classes, rather then the strategy in Conquest. I've yet to play Revelation but based on hearsay it sounds to be a way to round out the story and give people the time to meet the whole cast. On top of this testing for levels of players tolerance for strategy they brought in phoenix mode and spent time and money marketing which game was better for beginners. Then of course we have extra bonding/skinship and my castle.

Fates, similar to Awakening was another "test", 'Let's throw in everything we as fans have ever wanted with the knowledge we took from Awakening and the last 25 years."

The story suffered, it's passable, even enjoyable and as far as the game goes a success.

I'd be very surprised if the next game has such a large scope and diverging paths, which will most likely cause the story to be better, IS will have a better idea where they stand instead of casting wide nets to catch as many fans as possible. The next game I'm willing to bet will be Conquest maps with phoenix mode returning, and smaller scale mycastle, skinship. Children might even make an appearance through DLC only or a sequel game.

As for DLC and cash grab I agree with OP that this never flet like a cashgrab to me the way pokemon did as a child. I didn't have people to trade with back then and I had to have both games, I never once "had" to have all of Fates. Besides, spending 80$ didn't bother me because I'm used to paying that every two years + 15$ a month in subscription for Warcraft. Plus I knew I'd get more then 300 hours of gameplay out of Fates personally and lots of replay value like I have for all FE games.

Edited by Anfaidora
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Why? Why complain when we're winning here?

Because the entire game can be summed up with Intelligent Systems wanting to have their cake and eating it too. The gameplay and music are for the most part great, but a lot of other things are so watered down by their attempts at trying to please absolutely everyone that it understandably gets people upset.

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Most of the things everyone has said I agree with. Particularly in that Pokemon uses the multiple versions to encourage multiplayer, while at the same time being made with minimal effort. The separate versions of Fates each required a great deal of effort that could have been spent polishing more important things. It's not even like this is an entirely new idea that IntSys is using here. Sacred Stones's layout of having the player choose to go with either Eirika or Ephraim would have worked just fine in Fates. We still end-up fighting Garon at the end of the game, Takumi's possession still happens just at different points in the story. There is no reason that the 2 paths couldn't have converged at the end (IMO). IntSys made an extremely poor decision that resulted in making their job harder than it needed to be at the expense of more important features than having 2 separate games.

Fates, similar to Awakening was another "test", 'Let's throw in everything we as fans have ever wanted with the knowledge we took from Awakening and the last 25 years."

I still agree with your main point, I just can't believe that IntSys has looked back and actually examined what things they've done in the FE games that came out before Awakening have worked.

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1. Its too expensive to bring all three games to one: Think about it for a second. Either one of these games alone costs about 1 GB which is the same size as that of Kid Icarus Uprising. Adding three games in one is going to make it expensive because its basically three games bundled in one.

I can say the same thing about Metroid Prime Trilogy which just basically modify's the game engine and only makes the graphics better. Yet, for the time of its release, it ended up being too damn expensive unlike now where its cheap.

But for Fates, unless the next generation comes, its impossible to expect the game to come at a cheap price for 40$ because again, you get three individual games and since the special edition is sold out, it'll be even more expensive to restock them and make them cheaper. Removing the art book and some other goodies can't possible cutshort the price tag.

> Comparing Fates' 1 into 3 to Prime Trilogy

Literally no. Prime Trilogy was actually three different games, in case you forgot. You cannot compare these two, Metroid Trilogy was not one game, broken up into three, it cannot work like that. Fates on the other hand, has been proven to fit on one cartridge.

The game itself implies it(why would they have you choose, then lock the other route if this wasn't the case), the SE itself, romhackers, but I'm not going in depth on that one.

And if you really want to talk 1GB being "too expansive" for the cartridge and it had to be put on separate cartridges... Bravely Default and Resident Evil Rev both had 3GBs... on 1 cartridge, so can that really float?

And this is from my outdated knowledge on the size of 3ds games nowadays.

Each route was roughly 1.5-1.6 GB Someone enlighten me on the size of Revelation by itself

So if you combine them, even discrediting all the rehashes similar stages, you get the size of BD more or less.

Maybe a bit more.

EDIT: If Revelation wasn't the definitive ending or what have you, then what was the point besides... *cough*

Edited by Soledai
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You're free to disparage the quality of the games (although I'd disagree; Conquest alone is very much one of the very best FE experiences as far as I'm concerned), but it's dishonest to portray them as purely a cash grab. Either Birthright or Conquest alone easily has content comparable to most previous FE games.

Gameplaywise it's not even a debate. You get ~28 chapters, which is a reasonably standard number give or take for the series, and ~13 paralogues, slightly less than Awakening but still more than most other games. Only Radiant Dawn can really be argued to have more content map-wise, and then not by much.

Not to mention how many mechanics were re-designed or fine-tuned in Fates, and the obvious effort which went into designing individual maps. This was not in ANY way a lazy game gameplaywise.

Story-wise, again, I'm not really going to get into a debate of how good the story is. Like some others, I don't think it's very good (though I certainly think the series has managed worse). However, you can't say they didn't try. They brought in a new writer, they wrote more support conversations than any previous game save Awakening (for any one route alone, again). You're free not to like the results and criticise what they did but the effort was clearly there and that's not what one associates with a cash-grab.

And yeah you don't fight the ultimate true villain in Birthright or Conquest, but the same is true of Path of Radiance as well. And while you fight main villain in both Shadow Dragon and New Mystery, I would certainly argue that the games are worse off for this repetition. In other words: games which exist as pairs or a trilogy often aren't terribly complete story-wise in and of themselves, and this is perfectly fine.

Edited by Dark Holy Elf
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In other words: games which exist as pairs or a trilogy often aren't terribly complete story-wise in and of themselves, and this is perfectly fine.

This is true, however; myself and a good deal of the people I know all agree that there was no reason (gameplay-wise) to divide this one story separate pieces in the first place except to squeeze more money out of us.

Like I said before, I definitely acknowledge how much effort went into these games, but I think they could have given us better content while putting in less effort if they hadn't tried what they did. It's not so much that the games themselves are limited to being a cash-grab as it is that that one crucial decision in the development process was for the purpose of grabbing our cash.

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This is true, however; myself and a good deal of the people I know all agree that there was no reason (gameplay-wise) to divide this one story separate pieces in the first place except to squeeze more money out of us.

Like I said before, I definitely acknowledge how much effort went into these games, but I think they could have given us better content while putting in less effort if they hadn't tried what they did. It's not so much that the games themselves are limited to being a cash-grab as it is that that one crucial decision in the development process was for the purpose of grabbing our cash.

This rings extra true when you remember that you can't buy the golden path on its own.

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I'm not sure I follow the argument.

If Birthright-Conquest-Revelation were one game it would be monstrously large by FE standards. It's not fair to say that "there is no reason to divide this game into pieces" when such the undivided game would be over 70 maps long (before counting a single paralogue).

Another way to look at it: Birthright-Conquest-Revelation together have at least as much content as Path of Radiance-Radiant Dawn, and were offered at a lower cost (at least after adjusting for inflation; I forget the exact release date price points for those games).

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I'm not sure I follow the argument.

If Birthright-Conquest-Revelation were one game it would be monstrously large by FE standards. It's not fair to say that "there is no reason to divide this game into pieces" when such the undivided game would be over 70 maps long (before counting a single paralogue).

Another way to look at it: Birthright-Conquest-Revelation together have at least as much content as Path of Radiance-Radiant Dawn, and were offered at a lower cost (at least after adjusting for inflation; I forget the exact release date price points for those games).

If you just want to count in terms of quantity, then maybe that's true. However, that's not the most important aspect of the game for me.

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If you just want to count in terms of quantity, then maybe that's true. However, that's not the most important aspect of the game for me.

Do understand though, that the quality of gameplay is the most important aspect for a huge number of buyers. This is something Fates delivers in spades. This is why you have majority of people saying "story is meh, but i dont care." All you can do, is speak with your wallet the next time a game gets released and the story doesnt meet what you are after. Fates, for many, is a lot of quantity delivered with quality gameplay.

As for the question, of course its a cash grab. Revelation is a cash grab. DLC is a cash grab. Company makes it saying "please buy our product." They want your money, they gonna put hella stuff in the game and do stuff like this to get it.

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Key to the idea of a "cash grab", at least to me (though this definition agrees) is that it is an attempt to gain money from the customer in exchange for little effort. I point at the quantity to show that the effort was obviously there, something everyone seems to more or less agree with. I think we may just disagree about what a cash grab is.

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Do understand though, that the quality of gameplay is the most important aspect for a huge number of buyers. This is something Fates delivers in spades. This is why you have majority of people saying "story is meh, but i dont care." All you can do, is speak with your wallet the next time a game gets released and the story doesnt meet what you are after. Fates, for many, is a lot of quantity delivered with quality gameplay.

It's very important to me as well; I love Fire Emblem's gameplay, and Fates is no exception - for the most part. I think a lower number of maps would've benefited the game both in terms of map design and story, since the story drags on as we plow through a few unimaginative maps in all three routes, even if there are fewer of those in Conquest.

Key to the idea of a "cash grab", at least to me (though this definition agrees) is that it is an attempt to gain money from the customer in exchange for little effort. I point at the quantity to show that the effort was obviously there, something everyone seems to more or less agree with. I think we may just disagree about what a cash grab is.

Maybe so. It just doesn't sit right with me that the golden path can't be bought on its own, nor do I like how the game drags on just to meet some arbitrary quota of maps; like I wrote earlier, I think the game would've been much better had they just cut down on the quantity a bit and put it all on one cartridge. Then there'd be no debate about it being a cash grab and the story and maps could've been more focused. As it stands now, you need to spend more money than average to get the full experience of Fates, and just citing the amounts of maps doesn't work as an argument for why the three paths should be sold separately, if you ask me.

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Id actually agree that Revelation should be able to be a stand alone buy. But id argue it would need to be longer in order for it to work as a stand alone. I disagree that Revelation's maps are unimaginative. They are quite different from the rest of the series. Sure, they can be a bit tedious on a replay, but they arent unimaginative in the least.

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That and the way IS is pimping out the game with cheesy merchandising and godawful DLC practices (seriously, fuck on-cart DLC).

This is the biggest reason that I'd see Fire Emblem Fates as a cash grab -- aside from new, reused, or remastered maps and new or remastered music tracks, CGs, certain seals, and the Pebble weapon, none of the DLC have offered anything that isn't already in the cart as far as I know.

Already on cart DLC:

-All amiibo classes and their skills**

-All Stattaker manuals*

-Paragon manual*

-Armor Shield manual*

-Wing Shield manual*

-Beast Shield manual*

-Point Blank manual*

-Bold Stance manual*

-Ebon Wing, Dread Scroll, Sighting Lens, Witch's Mark*

-Replicas of amiibo weapons*

-Anna***

-Fuga (and the vast majority of story characters based on which version of the game you own)***

*I can get all of these items via cheating, such as using the Powersaves device.

**I can hack the amiibo skills in, but can't get the classes using the Powersaves device

***Can get Einherjar of these units via visiting another player's castle.

What Powersaves cannot get me:

-Hero Brand, Exalt Brand, Fell Brand, Vanguard Brand

-Pebble

-Aether manual

-Warp manual

-Veteran's Intuition manual

-Heavy Blade manual

Edited by Roflolxp54
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I still agree with your main point, I just can't believe that IntSys has looked back and actually examined what things they've done in the FE games that came out before Awakening have worked.

While IS didn't look back in great depth I still believe they took a fair amount of time due to some of the game mechanics being changed. Expanding the weapons triangle, infinite weapons, weapon status, pre-promtes being more usable and customize-able, A+ supports, Class seals, are all things you could say they looked prior to Awakening. The last time I recall having this much choice or control over classes was in Sacred Stones, I started having Amelia flashbacks when we were getting info about the game.

As for the things they learned from Awakening, tweaking pair up for the player and giving it to the enemy was fantastic. I still think there could be some tweaking since I had a Valouria/Sophie Berserker /Great Knight combo that couldn't die and didn't need healing when in guard stance. Making the avater the real main character was... better, but I never really understood why I was the tactician when the older brothers and sisters had far more experience leading troops and war strategy. The avatars ability to choose a talent was another good change that allowed for better immersion, while personal skills seem to grant more character bias and takes away from the overall Class seals sadly. Skinship was another interesting way to give the player, as far as models and personal flair goes, more immersion and connections to the cast that made Awakening's confessions popular. It did however come with the fanservice feel that effects the children which is regrettable. Sequel games are far better ways to keep parents alive (or not) and allow for child units then dimensional slight of hand that puts into question far to many morals. Having Elise be a mother after the war would have made far more sense age-wise (Although I do believe her to be older then most people do, out of the "child" characters anyway)

A mixture of objectives and no touchy for skinship could have made it a nice feature instead of 'pure' fan service, while realistic passages of time through sequels or even DLC could do the same for children. It could even be a plus storywise with a time of peace, a prolonged war, or even the parents not being able to succeed, a smaller cast to make up for aging the parents and having true story driven children could be a huge boon in the future.

Edited by Anfaidora
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I'm not sure I follow the argument.

If Birthright-Conquest-Revelation were one game it would be monstrously large by FE standards. It's not fair to say that "there is no reason to divide this game into pieces" when such the undivided game would be over 70 maps long (before counting a single paralogue).

Another way to look at it: Birthright-Conquest-Revelation together have at least as much content as Path of Radiance-Radiant Dawn, and were offered at a lower cost (at least after adjusting for inflation; I forget the exact release date price points for those games).

The decision to make 2 separate games came very early on in the development process. They could have saved themselves the trouble of putting so much effort into 70 chapters by making a single game that has the normal number of chapters and is polished significantly better. They could have conveyed the story perfectly fine without that many chapters. I acknowledge their effort, but I complain because a good portion of it feels like wasted effort.

This is just my opinion, but I have a lot more beef with Fates than just its story. I still like the game, but whenever I play Fates I find myself cringing every 15 minutes because it could have been SO much better...

Edited by cgRIPPER
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I'm at the point where I really don't care anymore, each campain is the size of a regular FE game, I can get the other path for half the cost, the DLC skills are minute, there is free DLC in the form of The Gifts From Anna and encounter with Awakening where you get 1/3 of the DLC classes for free, the story is okay, it's certanly not the worst thing ever.

I don't mind the returning maps as DLC as they give newer players some exposure to a game they never played, while making older players feel like thay're not missing out on anything new

also the DLC is way better than Awakening reusing the same classic map 3 times and selling it again for $2.50

if anything fates does DLC better than Awakening

you may not feel the same way I do but after 7th gen I feel like DLC is inevitable.

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