Thinking ahead: point blank

[maninbluejumpsuit]

Sooooo... would archer/outlaw suddenly become generally the more popular class talent to have over ninja? Especially considering the lack of child units that can get sniper/outlaw...

Edited May 29, 2016 by maninbluejumpsuit

[47948201]

IMO they're different, Ninja is still very useful for its superior speed, debuffing, and weapon triangle over both swords and magic while unlike spears always being good at countering them. It also means you're not spending a skill slot on a necessary skill.

That said, bow units are definitely going to become much more popular than they were before. I just don't think they'll usurp Ninjas.

[UNLEASH IT]

With Point Blank, I can finally go back to Awakening style faggotry by putting Sol on snipers and sticking them in the middle of a swarm of enemies.

[singularity]

depends whether people do want the DLC or not.

Ninja and Samurai are still the best talents if no DLC.

[FluffyWarlock]

Brace yourselves, all-Takumi teams are coming.

That's my only thought.

depends whether people do want the DLC or not.

Ninja and Samurai are still the best talents if no DLC.

With the DLC, that includes Witch and Lodestar, right?

Edited May 29, 2016 by FluffyWarlock

[Renall]

People are remarkably nonchalant about the opportunity cost of giving up an entire skill slot.

[kcirrot]

People are remarkably nonchalant about the opportunity cost of giving up an entire skill slot.

Point Blank is a really profound change. Damage on Bows/Yumi are balanced around not being able to fight at melee range. Taking away that limitation is always going to be worth a skill slot IMO.

[Xenomata]

People are remarkably nonchalant about the opportunity cost of giving up an entire skill slot.

Bowfaire, an attack skill or two, maybe Trample or Aggressor if I want my murder to be extra spicy. Usually I don't even need all 5 skill slots, so I just slap my archers with whatever I have laying around that looks neat (Setsuna doesn't NEED movement +1, but what else is she gonna use?)

[47948201]

It's not easy to get on non-Kamuis, but I've been really enjoying my setup of

Lifetaker

Galeforce

Aggressor
Life and Death

Spendthrift

That's 5 slots, getting rid of any of those skills makes me sad. Do I want 1-range or +14 damage with crescent bow/28 with killer? I know what I'm picking, and it doesn't involve buying Heirs of Fate.

(EDIT: though, spendthrift is also not as great on non-Kamuis so)

Edited May 29, 2016 by 47948201

[Roflolxp54]

Extreme Anti-Aircraft Kana (if you REALLY want to brutally murder a flying unit):

-Charlotte!Siegbert or Charlotte!Dwyer as his dad. Corrin preferably should have +STR/-DEF (or any STR/Bane combo that gives him a +4 STR mod)

-Ballistician class

-Skills: Dragon Fang, Strengthtaker, Aggressor, Life and Death, Spendthrift

-Support unit: a partner that can provide the most STR-bonuses (most likely a female S-support in Berserker class; if going with a male A-support, Berserker or Vanguard)

-Requires a unit that has Profiteer for additional support (for the Spendthrift skill) or bringing in Gold Bars beforehand

Point Blank wouldn't fit in as it doesn't directly boost damage output at all.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Roflolxp54

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

So just to be clear, does Point Blank enable Bow users to do 1-2 range or just 1 range?

Edited May 29, 2016 by Douglas MacArthur

[Roflolxp54]

So just to be clear, does Point Blank enable Bow users to do 1-2 range or just 1 range?

1-2 range; 1-3 range if using Spy's Yumi.

Mini Bow (1 range only) and Shining Bow (1-2 range) aren't affected since they already strike at 1 range.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Roflolxp54

[Shadow Mir]

People are remarkably nonchalant about the opportunity cost of giving up an entire skill slot.

Heh. I'm kinda surprised to see a more reasonable opinion on the matter - everyone else treats it as a major game-changer, but is it really?

1-2 range; 1-3 range if using Spy's Yumi.

Mini Bow (1 range only) and Shining Bow (1-2 range) aren't affected since they already strike at 1 range.

I was wondering if it'd allow the Spy's Yumi to attack at 2 range...

[UNLEASH IT]

Heh. I'm kinda surprised to see a more reasonable opinion on the matter - everyone else treats it as a major game-changer, but is it really?

Yes. Bows have Mt on par with Axes while being more accurate. This is balanced by them being unable to attack from close range (making them a predominantly player phase weapon). With point blank, that balance completely removed, leaving you with an accurate, high Mt weapon than can double from range (and up close) without any drawbacks. Essentially, a bow would become Raijinto/Siegfried without the stat boost

[FluffyWarlock]

Yes. Bows have Mt on par with Axes while being more accurate. This is balanced by them being unable to attack from close range (making them a predominantly player phase weapon). With point blank, that balance completely removed, leaving you with an accurate, high Mt weapon than can double from range (and up close) without any drawbacks. Essentially, a bow would become Raijinto/Siegfried without the stat boost

Hence why I talked about all-Takumi teams.

[Roflolxp54]

Hence why I talked about all-Takumi teams.

THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE Only one Takumi is going to be wielding the Fujin Yumi.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Roflolxp54

[Renall]

Yes. Bows have Mt on par with Axes while being more accurate. This is balanced by them being unable to attack from close range (making them a predominantly player phase weapon). With point blank, that balance completely removed, leaving you with an accurate, high Mt weapon than can double from range (and up close) without any drawbacks. Essentially, a bow would become Raijinto/Siegfried without the stat boost

Without the stat boost and costing you a skill slot, so not like Raijinto/Siegfried much at all. Tomes have native 1-2 range without a skill slot and target Resistance which usually makes up for the Mt difference but nobody's breaking down the forum doors proclaiming that teams of +2 Thunder users are the end of all balance. The Mt difference between a Steel Lance and a Steel Yumi is a whopping 2. Proc skills and crits are already basically lethal. Attack Stance ignores range restrictions. And Point Blank only affects that one specific weapon type, a weapon no longer off the weapon triangle.

It is most useful in a scenario that you previously described, which is basically PvE farm combat where a Sniper tanks a bunch of trash at all ranges with recovery procs. Something that Tome users and Ryoma/Xander can already do, which is great and all, but not that impressive except that it's better against Ninjas. I'd be very curious where else it's such a seismic shift in game balance. Takumi becomes Ryoma 2.0 in Birthright? So what, Ryoma is Ryoma 1.0 in Birthright. Is Mozu suddenly soloing Conquest? I doubt it. Are PvP teams not winning based on whoever moves first because somebody has a Point Blank user? No. It's a super convenient skill, but outside of garbage cleanup and farming what is it helping us do that's worth such anticipation?

I think people are massively overreacting.

[Roflolxp54]

It is most useful in a scenario that you previously described, which is basically PvE farm combat where a Sniper tanks a bunch of trash at all ranges with recovery procs.

That niche of using the Spy's Yumi with Point Blank and tanking Enemy Phase.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Roflolxp54

[UNLEASH IT]

Without the stat boost and costing you a skill slot, so not like Raijinto/Siegfried much at all. Tomes have native 1-2 range without a skill slot and target Resistance which usually makes up for the Mt difference but nobody's breaking down the forum doors proclaiming that teams of +2 Thunder users are the end of all balance. The Mt difference between a Steel Lance and a Steel Yumi is a whopping 2. Proc skills and crits are already basically lethal. Attack Stance ignores range restrictions. And Point Blank only affects that one specific weapon type, a weapon no longer off the weapon triangle.

It is most useful in a scenario that you previously described, which is basically PvE farm combat where a Sniper tanks a bunch of trash at all ranges with recovery procs. Something that Tome users and Ryoma/Xander can already do, which is great and all, but not that impressive except that it's better against Ninjas. I'd be very curious where else it's such a seismic shift in game balance. Takumi becomes Ryoma 2.0 in Birthright? So what, Ryoma is Ryoma 1.0 in Birthright. Is Mozu suddenly soloing Conquest? I doubt it. Are PvP teams not winning based on whoever moves first because somebody has a Point Blank user? No. It's a super convenient skill, but outside of garbage cleanup and farming what is it helping us do that's worth such anticipation?

I think people are massively overreacting.

In previous games, this would've been true but what I've noticed in Fates is that there are a lot of classes with very high resistance, especially the Hoshidan ones. What's even more surprising is that a lot of the high res units aren't even magical but rather physical or mixed in nature, which presents quite a problem for mages. Though I'm not saying that I disagree with you otherwise. But on another note, what would you have used that extra skill slot for?

[Renall]

Depends on the build and the situation. Convenience aside there's always the option of having a Mini Bow for Player Phase 1 range so where it becomes most valuable is denying the Enemy Phase weakness of being unable to counter melee. That's not insignificant, but in situations where you're using a Bow user as a PP delete button or in a PvP context you're not likely to be tanking with your Bow user and probably want to load up on damage/accuracy/crit/procs. In a standard leveling context, Setsuna and Reina can't tank so it falls to Takumi or Mozu (Takumi has more HP growth, Mozu will generally get more Defense). If they have the stats necessary then they have a strong EP, otherwise it's just kinda there for those occasional times they get attacked. If you're doing a no-grind-but-DLC-allowed run then there's not as much of an opportunity cost as it's unlikely you'll be filling all your skill slots anyway, but I get the sense most people ban DLC entirely from runs like that. But if fixed-unit maps are allowed (say you permit yourself one Point Blank scroll), it'd be no harm to use it on Mozu or Takumi and would give them even more versatility and might, if they get properly bulky, allow them to do a ton of EP work.

However I don't know that it's supremely useful for a max-stats-and-bought-skills situation such as PvP or a theoretical Apotheosis-style DLC map. It sounds really good for some builds, in the same sense Bold Stance sounds super nice but I wouldn't automatically assume it's being used for every pairing. If Vantage works at 3 range then a Point Blank Spy Yumi user might become nigh-unattackable but outside of that I'm not sure Point Blank shifts the balance of PvP or anything. And if Fates-Apotheosis is as assholish as Conquest in its skill distribution then there may not exist an Enemy Phase strong enough no matter what skills you've got and it might be more important to have a Sniper loaded with Blow skills and raw damage that you're never letting get attacked. Point Blank and Life and Death are basically never going on the same build, say. And we may need Certain Blow + Spendthrift + Life and Death Snipers to cleanly clear out some threats on a map like that... but we have no idea right now, because that map doesn't exist.

It's going to be a great skill and it's going to be very useful and it's going to be extremely convenient. I don't think it's necessarily automatic on every Bow unit and I don't think it makes Bows the best of all weapons merely because it exists. That's all I'm saying.

[RafaelAntares]

Heh. I'm kinda surprised to see a more reasonable opinion on the matter - everyone else treats it as a major game-changer, but is it really?

I was wondering if it'd allow the Spy's Yumi to attack at 2 range...

Yes, Point Blank will allow Spy Yumi to attack at 2 range.

Point Blank is incredibly broken. Yumis already have the highest MT of all Weapons on top of the +2 Res boost and range. Give it to a Sniper with Vantage, Awakening, and Vengeance and you have a pretty broken unit.