(Thought/Debate) Are the "royals" really viable ?

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

I'll just speak of the ones I've used:

Elise, in Conquest: she's a good healer from the very start. Frail on the physical side, so please do not put her in range of a physical attacker, ever. Her personal skill is amazing; combined with Demoiselle, she provides an effective +5 def/res to adjacent male allies. I promoted her to Strategist, and she hit hard and fast, if with low skill and low magic weapon rank.

Takumi, in Birthright: the best of all possible Archers (in Fates, at least). Fujin Yumi is an excellent weapon, although Raider and Illusory Yumi may be useful to shore up his iffy speed and low res. He's somewhat frail, but he hits very hard and accurately, and (sometimes) doubles. I made him a Sniper, and he generally rocked.

Sakura, in Revelation: Another good healer, albeit with less movement. Her Personal skill only gives +2 Def/Res, but it is to all allies within 2 spaces, not just 1. Plus she gets Rally Luck and (as Onmyoji) Rally Magic, making her a good support unit. She's frail (surprisingly low Res), although she's helped a bit by High Luck. Overall, she offers a pretty similar role as Elise.

Leo, in Revelation: He's good, but honestly not extraordinary. Brynhildr is a good tome, and he's actually pretty bulky with his high Def, Res, and HP. But he has trouble doubling, and his Str is just a little too low to make him a viable dual-threat. He's worth using just to make Forrest though. Leo is reliable, no question, but don't expect him to turn into a killing machine.

And I haven't used Ryoma, Xander, Hinoka, or Camilla. Saving those four for when I replay on Hard Mode. I'm sure I'll need them, hah hah.

[Soledge]

I'm playing through conquest Hard at the moment.

Camilla hasn't seen any action at all, not even in chapter 10.

Since served GS fodder during it.

As a result Beruka has quickly outpaced her in terms of strength.

I've tried to use her since but she's just not very useful.

Leo and xander on the other hand are great units with good AS potential.

Both fullfill their respective roles perfectly.

Elise is best healer.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Every Royals is actually busted as fuck. Leo gets Forged Thunder for free and had one of the best growth in the game(Leo having 50% Speed growth as a DK speaks volumes about his growth). Even as a Pair Up bot, he's Top Tier for Magical unit having Butler Access and good PU bonus

Camilla is busted as all hell, high stats all around with great value on Speed, STR, and DEF. Her HP is her only weakness and her mediocre class set, but that doesn't stop her from being the best Conquest unit after Corrin. This make her the best mom overall as well

Xander literally is designed to shit on late game. Sakura and Ryoma is the only time Xander isn't dominating in the late game

Elise is the ultimate utility unit with horse, Staff, and DV, and her second class set(Wyvern) is actually fucking legit since she can nuke from the sky as a Malig Knight

The only downside the royals had is pretty much their less than pleasant child chapter(compare Siegbert Paralogue towards Ophelia paralogue for example), but that doesn't take anything away from them.

Edited June 3, 2016 by JSND

[kantoorfarina]

About the pre-promoted units in former opus, I don't really agree that they are good units. Some are good (like Seth, because you could grind in Sacred Stones, I recognize this wasn't a good example) but most of them are meh once the first chapters are done. Frederick for example is a huge waste of EXP in Awakening in harder difficulties if you're doing a no-grind run (but what's the point of playing Lunatic/Lunatic+ if you grind all your characters and just have to move them without any strategy).

I don't think you get it. Seth isn't good because of grinding, he's good because he joins in the prologue with amazing base stats, A in all weapon ranks, some of the best growths in the game, and 7 mov. Once I tried doing Seth only runs of FE8 to make it more difficult, only for it to backfire and make it easier. Most Jagens aren't good because of how statistically strong they are, especially lategame, but because of how useful they are. Although some units might be better than them lategame, jagens are still considered better units than them because of how good they are earlygame. What difficulty do you generally play on in FE? People who play on lower difficulties might see Jagens as unnecessary and wastes of exp, but on difficulties like HHM, jagens are basically necessary.

Edited June 3, 2016 by kantoorfarina

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Marcus isn't anywhere near neccesary on HHM if you play on slow-mo

Also Seth is just flat out broken. You can argue the chief reason that Seth is broken is because his game is physically disabled, that is true to some extent since FE8 stats is pretty pathetic

but lets not take away on how ridiculous he is here

Seth is literally a Jeigan with the best growth in the game.

Seth's growth is so ridiculous that amongst playable units you can make them better just by copy pasting Seth's growth on them. The only exception is probably Ephraim who had a growth that is just as busted as Seth and Myrh but Myrh is a different kind entirely

Edited June 3, 2016 by JSND

[MagicIsOP]

Scarlet is extremely solid and has a great class set.

Idk man, in Rev she falls of pretty hard after Chapter 18.

Not sorry.

[Varidan]

I'm kind of with OP on this one here, but when I think about it, I realize why. I've only played through BR and Conquest once so far, and havent touched Revelations yet. Starting in Conquest, once I got Camilla, my first instinct was that she was another over leveled unit you generally dont level much till later, if at all. Same with the others. The only royal I ended up actually using till lategame was Xander, and for all the talk of how amazing he is, I wasnt that impressed in the face of how strong my Keaton/Beruka, or Selena/Benny teams were. (Lets not mention Velouria..) I am ashamed to say I've actually had Xander... die... a few times. I mean he was amazing at first, but i just felt him falling off somehow. Ryoma has fared better so far, but I still had that "overleveled unit you do not level" mentality going. I'm actually at the final chapter of BR and he's still somewhat useful. Couldnt double some of the berserkers earlier... but a rally speed from Subaki helped.

After thinking about it, I think i realized why. And maybe this will help the OP too. But Jeigan mentality aside, since I didnt use them as much, I also didnt build many support levels with them, or even know who to build support levels with. By the time they showed up and i started using them, i already had most of my team set up with ideal pairings for kids and whatnot. So because of neglect and alienating them, I made them worse in the end. I guess next time around I just need to welcome them to the group with open arms and mind, and probably realize their true potential.

On a side note, I did read somewhere that Leo can turn out pretty well as a Malig Knight with Sorc skills. Idk, but its something i might try. Bolt axe could be a thing.

[Renall]

Idk man, in Rev she falls of pretty hard after Chapter 18.

Not sorry.

I get it, but at the same time she's one of the better units in 16 and 17 without actually doing anything except existing, and she's free deployment on 16. You could literally never field her again after that and she'd be great! Which is good, because... also not sorry.

[Dark Holy Elf]

After thinking about it, I think i realized why. And maybe this will help the OP too. But Jeigan mentality aside, since I didnt use them as much, I also didnt build many support levels with them, or even know who to build support levels with. By the time they showed up and i started using them, i already had most of my team set up with ideal pairings for kids and whatnot. So because of neglect and alienating them, I made them worse in the end. I guess next time around I just need to welcome them to the group with open arms and mind, and probably realize their true potential.

Yeah, this is pretty much it.

Anyone will be worse if you wait a few chapters until after they join before you start using them. With overlevelled characters this is less pronounced (in that you CAN bench Xander for a few maps then pull him out, whereas if you do that with e.g. Peri or Laslow they'll be total trash) but it's always still true.

I'm playing through conquest Hard at the moment.

Camilla hasn't seen any action at all, not even in chapter 10.

Since served GS fodder during it.

As a result Beruka has quickly outpaced her in terms of strength.

I've tried to use her since but she's just not very useful.

Level X/6 Malig Knight Camilla: 32 HP, 24.5 Str, 13 Mag, 18 Skl, 22 Spd, 13 Luck, 20 Def, 18 Res

Level 20/1 Wyvern Lord Beruka: 31 HP, 22 Str, 2 Mag, 25 Skl, 15 Spd, 16.5 Luck, 24 Def, 11 Res

That's Beruka and Camilla at equal levels (Camilla's internal level causes her to gain exp as if she's four levels lower). Camilla also needed less Exp and no Seal to get this far, and can instantly gain +1 HP/Str/Skl/Spd/Def by switching to Wyvern Lord if she wishes. But even without those allowances, she wins the stat comparison here easily.

It's always possible that your Beruka was incredibly RNG blessed, but normally, Camilla will be superior by quite a lot (that speed difference in particular...). And that's not even getting into how crazy dominant she is in Chapters 10-14 or how good her personal skill is.

[UNLEASH IT]

So I've seen a lot of interesting opinions and I'm glad to see so many long answers!

About the pre-promoted units in former opus, I don't really agree that they are good units. Some are good (like Seth, because you could grind in Sacred Stones, I recognize this wasn't a good example) but most of them are meh once the first chapters are done. Frederick for example is a huge waste of EXP in Awakening in harder difficulties if you're doing a no-grind run (but what's the point of playing Lunatic/Lunatic+ if you grind all your characters and just have to move them without any strategy). You can see a good example of it in Oddone's lunatic run on Youtube (he used him until chapter 15 I think (he was something like level 17), and he turned really bad and just stole all of the exp. I mean, if he gets 8 Exp per fight whereas normal unit can get 30, with 17 levels like that, it's really a huge amount of EXP that you lose. Same thing with Radiant Dawn's Laguz and prepromoted units (Tauroneo) in Micaiah's party. They get 1 EXP per fight! It's ridiculous when you know DB's units are far behind GM (when you reach the end of part 3 your DB units are 20 levels behind GM (and have garbage stats of course)! and you face the same ennemies in Part 4)

I didn't play Birthright yet but I must admit Ryoma and Takumi look broken. For the other ones (Nohr), I know they aren't really 20/8 BUT Royals and retainers both are limited to level 20 promoted (except if you use an eternal seal of course, but it's really expensive and not reasonable for a no-grind Conquest run, or maybe in Normal mode) and royals will be behind at this point, due to their "low" base stats (for a promoted unit of course). For example, my Peri beats Xander everywhere except Defense. But I recognize Xander is useful and works well as a tank for now (but Effie is incredible in this role too). When you play on characters assets and flaw he's good if played correctly. But I can just waste a slot to give him Charlotte honestly. It depends on how one's play, but IMO an "operationnal" unit can't be lost for a pair up.

About Camilla, I don't know 'cause I didn't use her that much (she just got 2 pegasi in chapter 10 and a ninja in top left of chapter 17 and a few dual strikes between), but I really think she joins far too early (fourth chapter of Conquest...) so she gets bad stats for a promoted level 1 unit. Her growths are OK, but when you can FINALLY use her she's behind everybody (but she could be viable if RNG-blessed). I'm sorry it's again this story of EXP stealing...

But Leo I just don't know what to do with him and you too apparently. His stats are so meh he just can't fill any role.

Thank you for your answers, it's really interesting to discuss with you!

Her growths are better than almost every other unit in the game, what are you on about?

[darkestdarkness]

worth noting that camilla's internal level is 15 as opposed to 20 for promoted units. (except jakob and felicia who have 0)

Edited June 5, 2016 by darkestdarkness

[Original Alear]

As far as prepromos in other games, you mentioned taur and laguz in fe10...it's true they don't get much exp in dB chapters, but the truth is you don't need to raise all that many db units. It's true dB don't get much of a chance to level, but you get to reassign most of your units. Tauren doesn't have much availability in part 1, but I usually have him get a bunch of kills in 1-6-2 on the bridge to the left of the starting location (there are many mounted enemies iirc so units will face several attacks). It's also a good idea to crown him in 3-13 as that chapter has pwoeful enemies. I don try ans kill ike. I don't remember if u can use him in 3-12 or 3-6.

Laguz in fe10 can be problematic with their gauge, but volug is good in part due to an affinity that provides high dodge. The other dB laguz, and tormod, are mostly bad due to their low availability, but they are still pretty much required to save all the civilians in the marsh chapter afaik. Nailah's high move and nigh invincibility is great in 1 final, where your dB units will probably struggle - her move makes her better than the bk imo.

It's also odd to mention prepromotes in fe10 without talking about sothe. While he ends up weak in part iv, he's a very handy unit in part 1.

[DragonFlames]

I'm reading some of the comments here and it got me thinking if we were all even playing the same game.

The royals for me are never better than any of my other units, especially when it comes to stats, except for Sakura and Elise. Leo was downright crap, Takumi as well (Sakura was stronger than him).

Ryomas stats fell behind Hana's pretty quickly to the point where even his Rajinto couldn't make the difference any longer. Although I'd say that he is the best out of all the Royals, not counting Sakura and/or Elise.

Hinoka was meh, but to be fair, Sky Knight is a pretty meh class as a whole. I benched all Sky Knights after a while on my Birthright run, because they became liabilities.

As a flying tank, Camilla was matched, if not outclassed by her retainer Beruka, who went on to be the best weapon against those pesky Ninjas.

And then there's Xander. Poor, poor Xander. People always treated him like an unstoppable wall of death. Oh, if they ever overestimated you, buddy. I mean, he is pretty good as a tank and has Siegfried, but I found Silas, Peri and Sophie to simply be better than him as moving tanks and killing machines. Effie was closer to being an unstoppable wall of death, but she reached her limits once Ninjas started showing up (as did Xander).

And lets not get started on Conquest Chapter 19, where any unit on a mount that isn't a wyvern just gets destroyed without so much of a chance to blink. Keep Xander off of that map, if you want to keep him around.

I think that what made me so disappointed in any of the royals not named Elise or Sakura was the hype that surrounded them, that they were the best units in the whole game, that they were downright broken. Personally, I saw nothing of that. They weren't weaker or stronger than any of the other units in the game. Let's give this one last rundown, before you all come after me with pitchforks and torches. This is how it was in my playthrough of Birthright and Conquest.

Sakura: Amazing unit, surprisingly strong. Turned out to be my best Bow-user on BR. Also surprisingly tanky.

Elise: Same as Sakura, one of the best magic users in CQ. Incredibly frail, but a good magic tank and possibly one of the best healers in the game.

Takumi: About equal to Setsuna, eclipsed by Mozu and Sakura. Didn't live up to the hype at all. Became deadweight in the last few chapters of BR.

Leo: Even worse than Takumi. By far outclassed by Elise, Nyx, Odin and Ophelia in terms of magic power and too frail to be classed as a tank, not even close.

Hinoka: Meh. She didn't do much for me as a Sky Knight and as Falcon Knight, it didn't get much better. About equal to Subaki and the other Sky Knights, outclassed by Oboro as a Lance Fighter. She was lucky I got Bowbreaker for her or else she would have been deadweight right from the start.

Camilla: A bit better than the three previous ones, but still caught up to by similar units, in this case Beruka. Eventually benched in favour of Beruka. Her perks are a better resistance and slightly higher speed, that she joins early and is already promoted and of course that CQ chapter 10 is pretty much impossible without her, if you want to visit all villages/houses.

Xander: Disappointing. He was one of the most hyped units of Fates and he fell so short to live up to that hype that its not even funny. As stated before, he was caught up to by Silas, Peri and Sophie and as a tank outclassed by Beruka and Effie. Deadweight on CQ Chapter 19.

Ryoma: Also didn't quite live up to the hype, since he was pretty much made moot by Hana, who had much better stats than him at an equal level (Swordmaster level 5). His only saving grace is his better Defence and Raijinto. I still used him to the end and he was the only Royal aside from Sakura who I used all the way until the end, because the lobster lord is my personal favourite male Royal, character-wise and unit-wise.

I haven't tried Revelations, but that will come out on Friday and we'll see if any of my opinions will change then. But for the moment, this is as it stands.

Be aware that this is all my experience and I want it to be seen as such.

Now, bring on the death! I'm prepared for it!

[Renall]

If you think the "only saving grace" of Ryoma vs. Hana is Raijinto you may have missed the entire point of why Xander and Ryoma are overpowered.

HINT: It's Raijinto and Siegfried.

You may also have been grinding or heavily favoring non-royals because quite frankly there's no way I can see for Silas, Peri, and Sophie to catch up with Xander. It beggars belief and reality that you would just happen to be using literally every unit in the same category as one of the royals and that you would somehow not be impressed with the fact Xander has a 1-2 range sword over them.

[UNLEASH IT]

I'm reading some of the comments here and it got me thinking if we were all even playing the same game.

The royals for me are never better than any of my other units, especially when it comes to stats, except for Sakura and Elise. Leo was downright crap, Takumi as well (Sakura was stronger than him).

Ryomas stats fell behind Hana's pretty quickly to the point where even his Rajinto couldn't make the difference any longer. Although I'd say that he is the best out of all the Royals, not counting Sakura and/or Elise.

Hinoka was meh, but to be fair, Sky Knight is a pretty meh class as a whole. I benched all Sky Knights after a while on my Birthright run, because they became liabilities.

As a flying tank, Camilla was matched, if not outclassed by her retainer Beruka, who went on to be the best weapon against those pesky Ninjas.

And then there's Xander. Poor, poor Xander. People always treated him like an unstoppable wall of death. Oh, if they ever overestimated you, buddy. I mean, he is pretty good as a tank and has Siegfried, but I found Silas, Peri and Sophie to simply be better than him as moving tanks and killing machines. Effie was closer to being an unstoppable wall of death, but she reached her limits once Ninjas started showing up (as did Xander).

And lets not get started on Conquest Chapter 19, where any unit on a mount that isn't a wyvern just gets destroyed without so much of a chance to blink. Keep Xander off of that map, if you want to keep him around.

I think that what made me so disappointed in any of the royals not named Elise or Sakura was the hype that surrounded them, that they were the best units in the whole game, that they were downright broken. Personally, I saw nothing of that. They weren't weaker or stronger than any of the other units in the game. Let's give this one last rundown, before you all come after me with pitchforks and torches. This is how it was in my playthrough of Birthright and Conquest.

Sakura: Amazing unit, surprisingly strong. Turned out to be my best Bow-user on BR. Also surprisingly tanky.

Elise: Same as Sakura, one of the best magic users in CQ. Incredibly frail, but a good magic tank and possibly one of the best healers in the game.

Takumi: About equal to Setsuna, eclipsed by Mozu and Sakura. Didn't live up to the hype at all. Became deadweight in the last few chapters of BR.

Leo: Even worse than Takumi. By far outclassed by Elise, Nyx, Odin and Ophelia in terms of magic power and too frail to be classed as a tank, not even close.

Hinoka: Meh. She didn't do much for me as a Sky Knight and as Falcon Knight, it didn't get much better. About equal to Subaki and the other Sky Knights, outclassed by Oboro as a Lance Fighter. She was lucky I got Bowbreaker for her or else she would have been deadweight right from the start.

Camilla: A bit better than the three previous ones, but still caught up to by similar units, in this case Beruka. Eventually benched in favour of Beruka. Her perks are a better resistance and slightly higher speed, that she joins early and is already promoted and of course that CQ chapter 10 is pretty much impossible without her, if you want to visit all villages/houses.

Xander: Disappointing. He was one of the most hyped units of Fates and he fell so short to live up to that hype that its not even funny. As stated before, he was caught up to by Silas, Peri and Sophie and as a tank outclassed by Beruka and Effie. Deadweight on CQ Chapter 19.

Ryoma: Also didn't quite live up to the hype, since he was pretty much made moot by Hana, who had much better stats than him at an equal level (Swordmaster level 5). His only saving grace is his better Defence and Raijinto. I still used him to the end and he was the only Royal aside from Sakura who I used all the way until the end, because the lobster lord is my personal favourite male Royal, character-wise and unit-wise.

I haven't tried Revelations, but that will come out on Friday and we'll see if any of my opinions will change then. But for the moment, this is as it stands.

Be aware that this is all my experience and I want it to be seen as such.

Now, bring on the death! I'm prepared for it!

Did you grind a lot or did you not let the prepromote royals fight until later in the game? I'll give you Leo though, he is mediocre.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Chad Thundercock

[Dark Holy Elf]

Now, bring on the death! I'm prepared for it!

Don't worry, we won't bite. :)

First of all, I'll say that any RNG experience is possible, this is Fire Emblem. I can't speak to what happened in your file specifically. But, on average:

-Hana has very few, if any, stat advantages on Ryoma. She would have more Strength, except Raijinto closes that gap; they're within a fraction of a point of each other at most equal levels. She has more speed, but Ryoma has enough to double almost every enemy as is. Ryoma, meanwhile, has more durability, and Raijinto is a very big deal. Because the Kodachi and its ilk shut down doubling (which is Hana's thing), she can't have nearly the same kind of 1-2 offence as Ryoma has. Toss in his better durability (including avoid, thanks to Raijinto's boost) and there's no unit better-positioned to mow down opponents on the enemy phase. This isn't to attack Hana, more to say that Ryoma is probably the best unit in Birthright.

-While Siegfried isn't quite as big a deal-breaker for Xander as Raijinto is for Ryoma (mostly because Xander has enough speed issues that "1-2 range weapon that can double" isn't as significant for him), it is still a big deal. With it, Xander should have higher Def than any other mounted unit, losing only to Benny. While it's possible for Peri and Silas to surpass him offensively, he is virtually unmatched as a physical tank.

-Camilla vs. Beruka I covered above. The speed gap is monstrous; Camilla is one of the fastest units in Conquest (the few who surpass her either have poor Str, awful durability, or both), Beruka is one of the slower ones outside Benny and Gunter. Camilla also has higher Strength, so offensively she is far better than Beruka (and indeed, almost everyone). Defensively the two are similar, depending on class. Beruka will usually have a little more Def, while Camilla will have a little more HP and Res.

-Hinoka has terrific stats for a Level 8 unit and is rather ridiculously superior to Subaki in terms of offence due to the latter's speed woes. Compared to Oboro, she again wins very easily: either you think, as I do, that flight is valuable and worth whatever stat victories Oboro may have, or you can class swap Hinoka into Spearfighter immediately and have someone who looks almost identical to Oboro stat-wise, except for her big leads in Speed and Res.

This is without getting into the advantages the royals have in terms of being powerful out of the gate, or the fact that they all have great personal skills.

[MagicIsOP]

or the fact that they all have great personal skills.

Ryoma's,Hinoka's, Takumi's and Leo's aren't that great

Edited June 5, 2016 by MagicIsOP

[UNLEASH IT]

Ryoma's,Hinoka's, Takumi's and Leo's aren't that great

I'll give you Leo. Maybe Hinoka and Takumi. But this is the first time I've heard anyone say that Ryoma's personal skill isn't anything but amazing.

[Renall]

Hinoka's is a decently useful aura for other frontliners that's free damage for sending her in first, Leo's is okay for guaranteeing finishers. It's debatable. But if you think Bushido and Competitive "aren't that great" I'd like to know what you think is better than +/- Damage and +10 Crit for reasonably easy-to-trigger conditions. Particularly Bushido which requires basically no work to set up because Ryoma is almost always higher-level than everyone else he could be supported by except maybe Corrin (and in that case a Ryoma + Corrin dual strike is probably a kill).

There is some genuinely bizarre anti-royal doublethink sandbagging going on in this thread for some reason.

[Ownagepuffs]

Did you grind a lot or did you not let the prepromote royals fight until later in the game? I'll give you Leo though, he is mediocre.

Leo is better than like 90% of the cast lmao.

[UNLEASH IT]

Leo is better than like 90% of the cast lmao.

While he is better than most of the cast, he's probably the weakest of the royals. His main problem is that he's almost as slow as Xander and doesn't have nearly enough defense to make up for it.

[Ownagepuffs]

While he is better than most of the cast, he's probably the weakest of the royals. His main problem is that he's almost as slow as Xander and doesn't have nearly enough defense to make up for it.

He is still one of the bulkiest units in the route tho. Hits Res and has a lot of res himself. There are a few mixed bulk situations that he is good in since Xander just rolls over and dies if a mage looks at him funny. There's literally no reason to not use them both.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Leo is notably faster than Xander for what it's worth. 2-3 more speed at equal levels (Leo's internal level gives him a +2 lead), and Leo can easily get more speed if you're willing to give up his mount and/or some durability. EDIT: Though yes, obviously you should use both.

Hinoka's skill is outstanding. +2 damage to anyone within 2 of her for free, sign me up. Ryoma's is also great, as already outlined. I was mostly referring to the older royals with that post (the younger royals' skills vary, Leo/Takumi's aren't amazing, though not bad).

Edited June 5, 2016 by Dark Holy Elf

[darkestdarkness]

Leo is above average as a unit but arguably worst of the royals even with a personal weapon.

[Dark Sage]

Leo also has access to Horse Spirit and Calamity Gate, which are really strong weapons and it's just as easy to fix his speed issues as it is to fix Xander's. Like, you can bench Xander and Leo can still mostly fill in for him (benching Xander is a dumb idea though).