The Fates first gen are terrible parents

[Alastor15243]

...Right... so... I feel I need to get this off my chest...

...Some part of me practically guarantees that this has been talked about before, but I couldn't see a thread, so...

...The deeprealms were a terrible idea. It was just poorly thought out in so many ways, but most importantly, it automatically makes every single person who reaches a heterosexual S support into a terrible person.

I mean let's be honest: There was no reason to put those kids in the deeprealms. The My Castle is plenty secure and would have been a perfectly safe place for them. Literally the only reason they did it was for gameplay purposes.

And what's worse is that they admit it by having some of the children wind up dysfunctional and call their parents out on being horrible parents. But that only makes it worse! It means they knew the implications of the system and went ahead with it anyway!

But by far the worst parents are Azura and Corrin, if only because they're the ones who can have two children, and then demonstrate breathtaking dickheadery with what to do with them.

THEY PUT THEM IN SEPARATE DEEPREALMS.

Not only do they make them grow up without their parents, they make them grow up without each other! There is literally no reason to do this except programming laziness! It could have easily been done by having Kana or Shigure's sibling tag along in Kana's or Shigure's paralogue.

Like, picture this: say Corrin marries Keaton. Instead of getting two paralogues, you get one, Kana's, and Velouria's there with him, helping him fight off the invaders before Corrin arrives, and maybe Keaton arrives to say one or two stock lines with Velouria, Kana turns into a dragon, and then on turn one Velouria shows up on your team going "Mom! Daddy! I want to help protect Kana!"

This could easily be done for all of the children, and something similar could easily have been done for Shigure. The fact that they didn't do this and instead decide to just roll with the first generation being mega ultra terrible parents astonishes me.

[shadowofchaos]

There's some big assumptions on your part about computer logic and programming. While it might seem simple to you, scripting event conditionals for an FE game (even just for the GBA) is a monumental task. Checking for that means having a condition for EVERY SINGLE sibling possibility and even then, check so that event ID's don't conflict adding further to the complexity of the n * m possibilities.

That's not even mentioning the loading of text and the logic for them.

Same with your special dialogue and event for Kana being with their sibling and turning Into a dragon.

And then there's already the pressure of when people were demanding a release date.

Other bugs, fixes, and CERO rating deadlines.

So please don't say "easily".

That being said, I agree with the rest of your post.

Edited June 8, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Res]

Corrin's also the worst for recruiting Kana. And as acting head of their army, I hold them responsible for all the other kids being recruited, too.

At least have all the kids grow up together! That would have also cut down on the number of mysterious guardians required. The characters sure lucked out in finding so many loyal people willing to raise their kids. ;)

[Truthblade]

I think we established that a while ago.

[Alastor15243]

There's some big assumptions on your part about computer logic and programming. While it might seem simple to you, scripting event conditionals for an FE game (even just for the GBA) is a monumental task. Checking for that means having a condition for EVERY SINGLE sibling possibility and even then, check so that event ID's don't conflict adding further to the complexity of the n * m possibilities.

That's not even mentioning the loading of text and the logic for them.

Same with your special dialogue and event for Kana being with their sibling and turning Into a dragon.

And then there's already the pressure of when people were demanding a release date.

Other bugs, fixes, and CERO rating deadlines.

So please don't say "easily".

That being said, I agree with the rest of your post.

It would've worked on the same logic as the generic parent and sibling supports though, wouldn't it? They already do stuff like this for Jakob/Felicia and Corrin's gender all throughout the game. And it would have been like a handful of lines of dialogue, it would have been less work than even a single sibling support conversation segment for each.

[shadowofchaos]

That logic is in a separate section of files and is completely inaccessible during events unless you hardcode it.

Joker and Felicia is a simple if else. A combo of children is an all encompassing switch.

And you do NOT ever want to hardcode logic for a system like this for more than one child.

If (male)

load Felicia

Else

Load joker

If (Kamui & Aqua)

blah blah

In EVERY chapter file for children, have a check for every single instance

In Kana file:

If Kamui Aqua

Block Chapter

If Kamui Marx

Block chapter

...blahblahblah

Edited June 8, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[singularity]

They could've either implemented them like FE4(split into 2 generations) or not include them at all. At least Awakening has time travel to the past to save the world as plot(and one of them is plot-important) to justify children. Fates has no justification except for fanservice.

[Alastor15243]

That logic is in a separate section of files and is completely inaccessible during events unless you hardcode it.

Joker and Felicia is a simple if else. A combo of children is an all encompassing switch.

And you do NOT ever want to hardcode logic for a system like this for more than one child.

I've done programming before, I'm not seeing the huge hurdle here, though I am willing to admit I might be missing something.

But regardless, what they came up with was just terrible.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Alastor15243

[shadowofchaos]

I've done programming before, I'm not seeing the huge hurdle here, though I am willing to admit I might be missing something.

Programming is a program with no external filesystem or engine limitations is a cakewalk.

Try programming a chapter in the GBA.

Ask DeathChaos25 some things for Fates and Awakening.

Edited June 8, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Etrurian emperor]

I wouldn't hold it against the first gens to much. I don't view them leaving their kids as part of their personalities because they just had to take a hit to ensure Fates got its fanservice. At some point Is decided to double down on the fanservice and if it couldn't be implemented into the story in any way then so be it.

I have the feeling that the kids were a very late addition. Somewhere along the line IS might have gotten scared and decided to hurry back into the comfortable shadow of Awakening. It is likely that the story had already been fully written when this shift in priorities happened and so they just had to do with the dumbest explanation possible.

[Abvora]

I wouldn't hold it against the first gens to much. I don't view them leaving their kids as part of their personalities because they just had to take a hit to ensure Fates got its fanservice. At some point Is decided to double down on the fanservice and if it couldn't be implemented into the story in any way then so be it.

I have the feeling that the kids were a very late addition. Somewhere along the line IS might have gotten scared and decided to hurry back into the comfortable shadow of Awakening. It is likely that the story had already been fully written when this shift in priorities happened and so they just had to do with the dumbest explanation possible.

I don't hold it against the first-gens either because they were saddled with stupidity for the sake of fanservice. It's very clearly a case of "being dumb/awful because that's what the devs wants" rather than "being dumb/awful because you are". I just pretend the kids were never born by not recruiting them.

Stuff like Nina's misaligned hair and crit portrait, Midori's ever-green eyebrows, and the kids all having the same "filler" gray eyes, plus the fact we only heard about them a week from release, does seem to indicate they were last-minute additions.

[Water Mage]

Another interesting thing,

I've heard that Hisame was originally Hinata's younger brother, before they made him his kid.

It's quite possible that a lot of the kids weren't meant to be a second gen unit and were part of the main story instead.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Water Mage

[darkestdarkness]

I don't consider children canon, at least with the deeprealm bullshit.

though admittedly this is nothing more than a headcanon on my part... I just think deeprealm is such a god awful concept it's making me ignore the canon.

Edited June 8, 2016 by darkestdarkness

[Roflolxp54]

Just... don't think too hard on it -- it's just fanservice. And with Outrealms still being a thing, you could make your own headcanon of the children characters coming from a failed timeline not unlike how the Awakening kids went back in time.

Or just think of their maps as free experience, items, and potentially more prisoner recruits.

There's also the fact that some of the children do resent their parents (at least outwardly) for being left in the Deeprealms. (I would find Shiro's dialogue funny if Mozu were his mother since Villager ends up being a reclass option for him while he's a Hoshidan prince.)

[MCProductions]

I consider the kids post game content, with the Deeprealms only existing if you become VERY desperate for exp in Conquest and they made them available early in BR and Rev to keep things even between the three routes.

I prefer the deeprealm explanation to Time travel, because I HATE time travel, and the kids are implemented the best mechanically in Fates compared to FE4 and Awakening, so I'll take it.

I wouldn't hold it against the first gens to much. I don't view them leaving their kids as part of their personalities because they just had to take a hit to ensure Fates got its fanservice. At some point Is decided to double down on the fanservice and if it couldn't be implemented into the story in any way then so be it.

I have the feeling that the kids were a very late addition. Somewhere along the line IS might have gotten scared and decided to hurry back into the comfortable shadow of Awakening. It is likely that the story had already been fully written when this shift in priorities happened and so they just had to do with the dumbest explanation possible.

I've been saying this since they first announced the kids lol.

[Hinya]

I too don't hold the parents as responsible. Plus I just can't bring myself to care if the Deeprealm explanation is stupid since it does not affect the main story.

[saisymbolic]

I'm not too bothered by the child system, most because I acknowledge it as fanservice and non-canon.

Now, while I have said this a million times, I do wish the Bond Unit system could have been implemented as the way all the first generation units get their "children." The "children" would not have been real children, merely beings that looked like they could genetically belong to the character that had their stats and skills. While the idea is just as nonsensical, I would have accepted it a bit better because it doesn't try as hard to justify the presence of the second generation. That Deepbolic Hyperealm storytelling idea was a horrible way to include them in.

Oh wait, if the second generation are Bond Units, you wouldn't be able to marry them. LOL. Oops

At any rate, all I ask is that if IS wishes to continue implementing the child mechanic, I ask they do it in a different manner.

Edited June 8, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[Pepperyena]

Just another thing in the game to throw hate at. The writing and story really are bad... But hey, they were riding off Awakening's success.

[The Geek]

In other breaking news: the Pope is Catholic and bears do their business in the woods

When I first heard about how children were done in Fates, my initial reaction was "lolhyperbolictimechamber" but as I thought more about it, there are some pretty unfortunate implications here. Now to give Fates' Gen 1 credit, it seemed that they were unaware of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber/Narnia/etc. -esque time flow differential between universes and couldn't predict that their children would end up growing up (with the exceptions of Kana, Midori, Kiragi, and Percy) almost all the way to adulthood without them.

At least with the Awakening kids, the versions of them in the universe the game takes place in will get to have normal childhoods, and it seemed in most cases that their parents were there for all of their early childhood at least. Also, it wasn't exactly the Awakening Gen 1's fault that they got killed in the zombie apocalypse.

[TheWerdna]

In other breaking news: the Pope is Catholic and bears do their business in the woods

When I first heard about how children were done in Fates, my initial reaction was "lolhyperbolictimechamber" but as I thought more about it, there are some pretty unfortunate implications here. Now to give Fates' Gen 1 credit, it seemed that they were unaware of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber/Narnia/etc. -esque time flow differential between universes and couldn't predict that their children would end up growing up (with the exceptions of Kana, Midori, Kiragi, and Percy) almost all the way to adulthood without them.

At least with the Awakening kids, the versions of them in the universe the game takes place in will get to have normal childhoods, and it seemed in most cases that their parents were there for all of their early childhood at least. Also, it wasn't exactly the Awakening Gen 1's fault that they got killed in the zombie apocalypse.

Which is why if I am going to blame anyone for this, it is going to be Owain, Inigo, and Severa. Because they dealt with the trauma of their parents dying and not being around and should really know better than just to abandon their kids to grow up without them. Shame on them.

[The Geek]

Which is why if I am going to blame anyone for this, it is going to be Owain, Inigo, and Severa. Because they dealt with the trauma of their parents dying and not being around and should really know better than just to abandon their kids to grow up without them. Shame on them.

But as I pointed out they didn't know about the fast forward time in the Deeprealms, so you can't entirely blame them for it.

[TheWerdna]

But as I pointed out they didn't know about the fast forward time in the Deeprealms, so you can't entirely blame them for it.

Except they would have the very first time they went to visit. And yet the went "nah, leave them there"

[NekoKnight]

They could have just made them all first gen characters, and then maybe we would have been spared the marriage BS as well. You'd think that after Awakening they'd understand it's possible to tie such features into the story, rather than have it further damn an already weak narrative.

[MCProductions]

They could have just made them all first gen characters, and then maybe we would have been spared the marriage BS as well. You'd think that after Awakening they'd understand it's possible to tie such features into the story, rather than have it further damn an already weak narrative.

Keep in mind they ACTUALLY believed Fates' narrative was strong, so they thought they could get away with weakening it slightly to implement a popular game mechanic again.

[Slyfox]

When I'm done unlocking supports, I'm never recruiting any of the children after S-ranking the parents. How long is each campaign in Fates anyway? Certainly not enough to have babies and raise/abandon them in the Deeprealms.

At least in Awakening it felt like you had a few breaks during the story where time passed, plus time travel shenanigans that made sense. In Fates, there is only one direction. Forwards, no breaks allowed. Good grief the second gen makes no sense in Fates.

As far as I'm concerned, the Fates second gen is canon, but only as babies, after the war.