What's Awakening/Fates is doing wrong

[Book Bro]

I can't agree with this. While I'm only familiar with the localized Fire Emblem games, the villains are awful almost across the board, with only Lyon having some amount of depth and complexity to him.

Personally, I love Zephiel. Like I said, he isn't the most amazing literary figure ever, but seeing him as such a pure child in FE7 and then the consequences of all the abuse his parents piled on him as a child causing basically all of FE6 is some real interesting stuff. He doesn't get enough credit IMO.

I will never understand the love people have for Ashnard; he's a bully on steroids who keeps giving our heroes a chance, effectively going against his own so-called ideology. The one thing he's got going for him that no other localized villain has is that everyone has a reason for wanting to take him down, and I appreciate that - he also had one good line about killing off his family and people thinking it was a plague, but it was later neutered in Radiant Dawn. Also, and this might come across as nitpicking to some but it's a real complaint I have about Path of Radiance: his bloody armor. He wants the strong to rule, but as previously stated he gives the heroes a chance to try, and he's itching for a fight, but only Ike can kill him. It also doesn't help that there's no connection between him and Ike, the two only meeting in the final chapter.

I think people appreciate the human element of PoR's story, and Ashnard as the main villain is just another example of that. He is just a very strong human. Sure he uses the medallion in the final chapter but hey he doesn't turn into a demon or a dragon. I would actually use Ashnard as an example of a clearly evil antagonist done well. Everything about him screams "this is a bad dude" but he isn't just doing evil to hurt the main character's feelings. I actually like that he isn't seen in the flesh until the last chapter, it builds him up more in the story and makes Elincia finally confronting him that much more powerful. Contrast that to Validar showing up and getting wrecked several times in Awakening.

Nergal is even worse, having the most boring modus operandi out of anyone in the series: collecting energy by killing people off-screen, and it can do whatever he wants it to. He's yet another villain who keeps letting the protagonists get away - at least Validar did some manipulation and always tried going for the killing blow when it fit his plans.

What puts Nergal over Validar for me is that he actually has a backstory and tbh I just think the morphs are pretty kickass. But I really can't stand Validar so calling me biased is not inaccurate.

Of course, everything pales in comparison to Garon, but if there's one thing I want Intelligent Systems to improve that has been lacking for well over a decade now, it's the villains.

Well, unless you count Naesala as one. That guy's cool.

I do agree here. When I think of all main villains in the series I can't help but feel they're underwhelming, especially compared to the lords. I just feel like with the new games IS have been going backwards making worse villains instead of improving.

[Nym]

In term of story, I would love to see a villain that doesn't look like a villain (at first, at least).

Seriouly, a (good) plot twist could help out a little bit.

All the FE villains always look so evil, it was obvious that they were going to be evil and maybe just a misundertood person or something.

[Thane]

Personally, I love Zephiel. Like I said, he isn't the most amazing literary figure ever, but seeing him as such a pure child in FE7 and then the consequences of all the abuse his parents piled on him as a child causing basically all of FE6 is some real interesting stuff. He doesn't get enough credit IMO.

Like I said, I haven't played the non-localized games in the series. I do know Zephiel has a tragic backstory, and giving him a past should give him some bonus points, but I really can't comment on that; even Fates sounds great on paper.

I think people appreciate the human element of PoR's story, and Ashnard as the main villain is just another example of that. He is just a very strong human. Sure he uses the medallion in the final chapter but hey he doesn't turn into a demon or a dragon. I would actually use Ashnard as an example of a clearly evil antagonist done well. Everything about him screams "this is a bad dude" but he isn't just doing evil to hurt the main character's feelings. I actually like that he isn't seen in the flesh until the last chapter, it builds him up more in the story and makes Elincia finally confronting him that much more powerful. Contrast that to Validar showing up and getting wrecked several times in Awakening.

I don't see it. He's not involved directly outside of the final chapter, constantly makes horrible decisions that seems to go against what he believes himself and he clads himself in armor blessed by the gods so that only Ike can kill him story-wise. I'm not a very big fan of people only being able to be killed by special weapons, but at least in Awakening the weapon has history behind it and has been guarded for generations and is constantly present in the story - Ragnell is thrown on the ground like trash, as Ike even highlights.

What is the point of a human villain when he can only be killed by the hero anyway? A hero which he doesn't even have any connection to, other than knowing his father like everyone else in Tellius.

I'm not defending Validar; the guy's a snoozefest, but at least he does something clever and wastes both Chrom and Walhart's forces without sacrificing his men.

Speaking of Walhart, he's in the throwaway arc in Awakening, but that guy is essentially an Ashnard but without any god-blessed bullshit.

What puts Nergal over Validar for me is that he actually has a backstory and tbh I just think the morphs are pretty kickass. But I really can't stand Validar so calling me biased is not inaccurate.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I can't get over just how boring his methods are, and I think the morphs are some of the worst characters in all of Fire Emblem - the whole subplot with Nino is so pathetically written that I burst out laughing when playing it.

I do agree here. When I think of all main villains in the series I can't help but feel they're underwhelming, especially compared to the lords. I just feel like with the new games IS have been going backwards making worse villains instead of improving.

Well, I think they've always been bad other than Lyon, so as long as Garon isn't a sign of things to come, I'm not worried at all.

[UNLEASH IT]

Does anyone feel like IS tried to please too many people with Fates?

[Thane]

Does anyone feel like IS tried to please too many people with Fates?

That's one of the main reasons for why it turned out the way it did, I believe, as well as the only reason for why Revelation exists.

[Hinya]

Does anyone feel like IS tried to please too many people with Fates?

At the same time you can't really blame them. They had to give some interest for the game to the "old" fans and still please the new fans that Awakening brought.

[BlueBloodEmblazer]

So what is your opinions on the Fates music vs Awakening music

Personally I like most of the battle themes in Fates better. As far as music that plays during support conversations the romance theme(s) is so much better in Awakening! In Fates it's so forced the romance theme doesn't sound right. Most of the Awakening music is better for supports. The sadness themes are both so good in both games. I don't know why but I really like the sad themes. They're just so beautiful. Not just the two battle ones, every sadness theme is good

I was very disappointed that we don't get the classic fire emblem theme, except in the end of Revelations for a few seconds. Azura's song is quite good, but the classic theme should have at least been on the title screen.

So in short Fates has good battle themes. Awakening has good themes for everything else. Awakening battle themes are good, but definitely lack. Fates music that plays inbetween chapters, and supports conversations is mostly bad. Both have good sadness and "the war is over! :D" themes.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

I say this as somebody who thinks FE7's plot is ass for the most part:

Nergal has a reason for being insane and devoted to darkness: dark magic in Elibe corrupts people in various way, and in his case it made him power-hungry. Why did he study dark magic? To get back with his lost/dead wife.

What's the reason for Validar to be a crazy Grima worshipper? ...

...

...

So?

And that's the problem with all the new FE villains: no motivations. My favorite is Walhart because he had more plausible reasons.

But the others? Gangrel's revenge is brought down by his pathethic bad cartoon villain attitude. Sad, because he has potential.

Aversa and Validar love Grima because.

Iago wants to be powerful or some reason like that. He seems to exist only to be an hindrance.

Hans is the early game bandit boss, except now he is a major endgame boss.

Garon is just a pawn slime monster who hates and wants to destroy everyone.

Anankos is mad because people don't love him anymore... really?

And not only they lack good motivations, but also good speeches, writing, et cetera. These games really need some entertaining villains!

They all have the basis to be fun, but the execution is too poor. I really don't ask much (I enjoy a lot of things in old FE plots, my standards for this series are not high... but neither too low), only baddies that are fun to read, fun to get angry at (Sonia, Julius, Alvis), fun to sympathize with (Lyon, Zephiel, heck even Sephiran)... badguys that feel relevant, that feel important, and give weight to the plot.

[maybe]

Like I said, I haven't played the non-localized games in the series. I do know Zephiel has a tragic backstory, and giving him a past should give him some bonus points, but I really can't comment on that; even Fates sounds great on paper.

eh, I wouldn't get your hopes up too much

like, his backstory is done pretty well to the point that you might be able to sympathize with him, but his actual goal is like... "kill all the humans"????

which is not something that I felt was a very good goal for a villain to have

[Roflolxp54]

I say this as somebody who thinks FE7's plot is ass for the most part:

Nergal has a reason for being insane and devoted to darkness: dark magic in Elibe corrupts people in various way, and in his case it made him power-hungry. Why did he study dark magic? To get back with his lost/dead wife.

What's the reason for Validar to be a crazy Grima worshipper? ...

...

...

So?

And that's the problem with all the new FE villains: no motivations. My favorite is Walhart because he had more plausible reasons.

But the others? Gangrel's revenge is brought down by his pathethic bad cartoon villain attitude. Sad, because he has potential.

Aversa and Validar love Grima because.

To Gangrel's credit, he also has an additional motive besides petty revenge against Ylisse: uniting the continent against the threat of Walhart and the Valmese army. However, this requires having Spotpass activated for Fire Emblem Awakening and playing as the male Avatar since this is only seen in their C-rank support (at least this is free disc-locked content).

Edited June 11, 2016 by Roflolxp54

[Dark Holy Elf]

Nergal has a reason for being insane and devoted to darkness: dark magic in Elibe corrupts people in various way, and in his case it made him power-hungry. Why did he study dark magic? To get back with his lost/dead wife.

Well you have to admit this is still a pretty terrible reason. "Dark magic makes you evil/crazy" isn't a very intriguing or human explanation for why someone would fall to evil. Compare with, say, Sephiran, who does terrible things because watching his own race be exterminated caused him to lose faith that laguz and beorc could live together peaceable and thus that Ashera had been right to propose wiping both out and starting anew. The game sells you on how someone might reach that mental state, and it doesn't require hocus-pocus.

It's still better than Validar etc., I suppose, but only just.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

Well you have to admit this is still a pretty terrible reason. "Dark magic makes you evil/crazy" isn't a very intriguing or human explanation for why someone would fall to evil. Compare with, say, Sephiran, who does terrible things because watching his own race be exterminated caused him to lose faith that laguz and beorc could live together peaceable and thus that Ashera had been right to propose wiping both out and starting anew. The game sells you on how someone might reach that mental state, and it doesn't require hocus-pocus.

It's still better than Validar etc., I suppose, but only just.

No, I agree, and I am a huge appreciator of Sephiran. But at least Nergal is not the only one corrupted by dark magic, so I think it gives better grounds as to why he is like this.

Others corrupted by dark magic are Bramimond, who even loses his own self to master it, and Canas' brothers, who end up in a coma-like state.

I think it's a cool idea... not very well executed but good enough, especially considering it's not there just to make Nergal go crazy, but to explain part of the magic system in Elibe.

To Gangrel's credit, he also has an additional motive besides petty revenge against Ylisse: uniting the continent against the threat of Walhart and the Valmese army. However, this requires having Spotpass activated for Fire Emblem Awakening and playing as the male Avatar since this is only seen in their C-rank support (at least this is free disc-locked content).

I see... I have never seen that. It's a bummer these bad guys get explored only in these conversations. Supports should have world building and such, but such important points shuld be detailed in the main story, IMO.

[Thane]

I say this as somebody who thinks FE7's plot is ass for the most part:

Nergal has a reason for being insane and devoted to darkness: dark magic in Elibe corrupts people in various way, and in his case it made him power-hungry. Why did he study dark magic? To get back with his lost/dead wife.

Prince Kael'thas Sunstrider in the Warcraft universe was a mage who studied abroad while his nation fell and pretty much 90% of the population was killed and/or turned into the undead. In honor of his fallen breatheren, he named them Blood Elves for the blood that was spilled. Their source of power, the Sunwell, was destroyed, and without its nurturing, magical energies, weak, sick and old people started dying. He took his strongest warriors and went south, helping what remained of another undead-destroyed land. However, the commander of the army was incredibly racist and gave them suicide missions, and then imprisoned them and was about to execute them for relying on outside help offered by a third party.

Realizing he had no future left in that world, the leader of the third party recommended seeking out her master in another world - he pretty much orders an exodus of his entire people to a dead, broken world and seeks out someone who can help them with their lack of magical energies, and as a result Kael'thas offers to serve him. Together, they liberate the broken world and stage an assault back on Kael'thas's world on its most dangerous enemy, but fail, and flee.

Kael'thas did everything he could for his people under the most dire circumstances, and fought against evil on his own terms.

...Then WoW's first expansion pack came along and he had joined the bad guys off-screen for dabbling with the Warcraft universe's equivalent of dark magic. Kael'thas was reduced to a moustache-twirling villain who now wanted to see the world burn, and his introduction quote before his final fight has become a meme, and even though many characters come back to life in that world, the developers don't dare to even talk about him again because of how badly they treated him, and they're afraid no one would be able to take him seriously anymore.

Blizzard has never been stellar writers, but this shows just how poorly explained motivations can ruin a character - by giving people a quick, easy-to-accept excuse to kill someone for shiny stuff, the story suffers.

In short: dark magic is just a flimsy excuse, and it doesn't make me feel any better about Nergal. I'm not defending other Fire Emblem villains, but honestly, Nergal is probably only above Garon on my list.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

And so? Having a reason as flimsy as dark magic is better than reviving Grima just because. The villains in the new FE games lack motivations, that's what I meant. I'd rather have a well detailed explanation on the corruption of something pitiful such as dark magic than "lol I love Grima" or the embarassment that is Garon. Heck, I'd rather have a Walhart with a longer arc.

Nergal is probably among my least favorite villains but then he still worked better than having badguys who feel like they have no presence at all. Sometimes I even forget about Validar's existence cuz of Grima, and when I went against Garon in Birthright it felt like I battled something almost non-existant. With Nergal, at least it felt like I was battling a madman and his empire of weird empty beings.

I never ever said FE has stellar writing or anything, just that once FOR ME it has always been good enough (FE7 has its moments even if it's shit), and now it's not anymore. Simply accept that Nergal for some people is a better villain than what new FE offered and move on.

I'm not even biased or nostalgic, because, as I said, I think FE7 has a bad plot.

Edited June 11, 2016 by CrimeanRoyalKnight

[arvilino]

And so? Having a reason as flimsy as dark magic is better than reviving Grima just because.

Validar is in a line of a religious sect dedicated to reviving Grima for 1000 years, Robin and by extension him were born to be raised and brainwashed into to revive the dragon. A guy being brainwashed into cult that his entire family line were a part of is more believable than "Dark Magic made me crazy". While Fire Emblem always deals with the supernatural I think the role Validar has is pretty grounded. Is it really hard to believe that a cult leader is 100% indoctrinated into their own religion?

Edited June 11, 2016 by arvilino

[Thane]

And so? Having a reason as flimsy as dark magic is better than reviving Grima just because. The villains in the new FE games lack motivations, that's what I meant. I'd rather have a well detailed explanation on the corruption of something pitiful such as dark magic than "lol I love Grima" or the embarassment that is Garon. Heck, I'd rather have a Walhart with a longer arc.

Nergal is probably among my least favorite villains but then he still worked better than having badguys who feel like they have no presence at all. Sometimes I even forget about Validar's existence cuz of Grima, and when I went against Garon in Birthright it felt like I battled something almost non-existant. With Nergal, at least it felt like I was battling a madman and his empire of weird empty beings.

I never ever said FE has stellar writing or anything, just that once FOR ME it has always been good enough (FE7 has its moments even if it's shit), and now it's not anymore. Simply accept that Nergal for some people is a better villain than what new FE offered and move on.

I'm not even biased or nostalgic, because, as I said, I think FE7 has a bad plot.

You stated an opinion on a public forum, and I offered my own in response; isn't that how these things work? I never demeaned your opinion or said you were wrong, merely that I didn't agree with your point.

To me, Nergal will always be so low on my list because of what he does and how he does it. Killing people off-screen to gather invisible energy and letting his only threats live when he could've killed them effortlessly simply doesn't do it for me, and his backstory isn't enough to make up for that.

That's all I said. I don't know why you're so annoyed.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

You stated an opinion on a public forum, and I offered my own in response; isn't that how these things work? I never demeaned your opinion or said you were wrong, merely that I didn't agree with your point.

To me, Nergal will always be so low on my list because of what he does and how he does it. Killing people off-screen to gather invisible energy and letting his only threats live when he could've killed them effortlessly simply doesn't do it for me, and his backstory isn't enough to make up for that.

That's all I said. I don't know why you're so annoyed.

But I only used Nergal as a way to state my point, regardless of how well written or not he is. You already stated before and multiple times that Nergal is an ass villain, even in this thread. However his quality as a badguy is secondary in this case.

Also sorry I am annoyed, I personally felt you were annoyed at my post too, but that was not the case.

I just want to point out that my point is not how well written a villain should be, but that they need motivations and charisma to work and entertain.

Validar is in a line of a religious sect dedicated to reviving Grima for 1000 years, Robin and by extension him were born to be raised and brainwashed into to revive the dragon. A guy being brainwashed into cult that his entire family line were a part of is more believable than "Dark Magic made me crazy". While Fire Emblem always deals with the supernatural I think the role Validar has is pretty grounded. Is it really hard to believe that a cult leader is 100% indoctrinated into their own religion?

The problem here is that we see too few of Grima's followers, he feels alone in what he does and he gets nothing in return for doing it, making his existance feel like he is there only to revive Grima for the plot. We have too few information on Grima's cult to make Validar feel more important and relevant.

If the cult of Grima and Validar were better explored, then it would have worked and it would have been a good reference to the Lopt sect, but as it is, it just feels hollow and "lol I love Grima".

Why does the Grimleal love Grima?

Why do they want the world to end?

Why is Validar Grima's number 1 fan?

The Lopt sect should have been explored more too, but at least it was explored enough! We see they do child hunts in honor of their god, that children indoctrinated to it live for Loptyr, that Loptyr grants his followers power and fame, we see a lot of Loptyr followers as bosses, we se that their ideal world is one were only the strongest live.

With Grima, we only see most of its followers are brainwashed, that they are rich, and that for some reason they want Grima to succeed.

[Thane]

But I only used Nergal as a way to state my point, regardless of how well written or not he is. You already stated before and multiple times that Nergal is an ass villain, even in this thread. However his quality as a badguy is secondary in this case.

Also sorry I am annoyed, I personally felt you were annoyed at my post too, but that was not the case.

I just want to point out that my point is not how well written a villain should be, but that they need motivations and charisma to work and entertain.

No worries, stuff like that happens. I didn't mean to sound annoyed at you either.

On that last part we can definitely agree.

[arvilino]

The problem here is that we see too few of Grima's followers, he feels alone in what he does and he gets nothing in return for doing it, making his existance feel like he is there only to revive Grima for the plot.

Yeah he is only there to revive Grima, he's in the same boat as Robin where he would have been born for the sake of reviving Grima. A big point of the game and his role is that he's been manipulating events and planting Grimleal(Excellus) across the continent specifically ensure Grima's resurrection and not for any personal gain.

Why does the Grimleal love Grima?

Why do they want the world to end?

Why is Validar Grima's number 1 fan?

1. The Grimleal worship Grima for it's strength(the cultists, including Validar's family line). The in-game dialogue and some supports mention a lot of of them were driven to it by Validar's designs as a sacrifice and events like Chrom's Father's War(revenge) with Plegia, Gangrel's harsh rule and the Ylisse and Plegia's war during the main game drove the civillians to it for an escape from hardship. Then they were brainwashed and used as a sacrifice at the Dragon's Table.

2 & 3) Validar is the direct descendant of the Grimleal member who Grima shared his blood with. Their offspring are born either to become Grima's vessel provided they have the heart of Grima or have a child who will be the vessel. Validar's and Aversa's lines in the game have him believe all events that occur are pre-ordained and that it's his role to revive Grima and that it was decided 1000 years before the events of the game. The way I see it Validar as written as that he's deep in hs faith as a servant of his God and there to carry out Grima's will and not his own. Chapter 23 shows he's more about reviving Grima and isn't bothered about the world being destroyed afterwards.

Though could you explain how you saw it? When you played the game did you think Validar had just decided to resurrect Grima himself?

Edited June 11, 2016 by arvilino

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

Though could you explain how you saw it? When you played the game did you think Validar had just decided to resurrect Grima himself?

Well, when I played the game (I've read the story fully two times at least), I saw the Grimleal before the rise as a really small clique. They can be forgotten easily... it's not a bad thing but I still think they should've had a bit more impact on the player.

Of course it's not a "just himself" (there is Aversa and some bosses), but it wouldn't have hurt to have more robed priests with more plot relevance, like one or two more.

And even after the rise of the Grimleal, it just felt like he was alone and only used brainwashing to control people... like, I would've liked to see some actual show of love and faith for Grima from both him and the followers, I would've liked to see a Plegian explain why the Grimleal is right. Because on one side we are told brainwashing is used, but on another we hear Validar won the hearts of the Plegians. Whaaat? Sure one does not deny the other, but I would've preferred if they sticked to winning people over.

His faith for Grima seems ridicously evil, born from nowhere, it's hard to take him seriously. Even if he is part of a devoted family, more than just his blood should define his faith. It makes sense for him to be a strict believer of destiny... but then, why not let him explain more of the Grimleal's philosophy? Why do they want the world to die? Even a "You wouldn't understand." would've been better than nothing. Even if his motivation is faith, faith needs reasons, faith is grounded in moral beliefs. What are his beliefs?

[NekoKnight]

Kael'thas did everything he could for his people under the most dire circumstances, and fought against evil on his own terms.

...Then WoW's first expansion pack came along and he had joined the bad guys off-screen for dabbling with the Warcraft universe's equivalent of dark magic. Kael'thas was reduced to a moustache-twirling villain who now wanted to see the world burn, and his introduction quote before his final fight has become a meme, and even though many characters come back to life in that world, the developers don't dare to even talk about him again because of how badly they treated him, and they're afraid no one would be able to take him seriously anymore.

Blizzard has never been stellar writers, but this shows just how poorly explained motivations can ruin a character - by giving people a quick, easy-to-accept excuse to kill someone for shiny stuff, the story suffers.

In short: dark magic is just a flimsy excuse, and it doesn't make me feel any better about Nergal. I'm not defending other Fire Emblem villains, but honestly, Nergal is probably only above Garon on my list.

I quite liked Kael before his debut in World of Contrived Conflicts. That game had a knack for ruining all its lore. WoW was just a setback!

I would agree that "he went crazy and became a raid boss" is a weak excuse for villainy, if not for the fact that dark magic being corrupting is an important element of world building in Elibe. It affects multiple characters and even Nergal comments on how he can't even remember why he sought power. Nergal's character is actually pretty tragic as opposed to Validar or Gooron who are just "for teh evuls".

Edit: The difference between Nergal and WoW!Kael'thas is that Kael arbitrary chooses to betray all of his allies and side with the demons who are ultimately responsible for the destruction of his kingdom. None of his corruption is really explained, it's just "He went crazy or something". Dark magic in Elibe, however, is established as having the risks of harming the user (Brammimond and Canas' brothers), so Nergal's corruption is consistent with the elements of the setting.

Edited June 12, 2016 by NekoKnight

[The Draco Knight]

I say this as somebody who thinks FE7's plot is ass for the most part:

Nergal has a reason for being insane and devoted to darkness: dark magic in Elibe corrupts people in various way, and in his case it made him power-hungry. Why did he study dark magic? To get back with his lost/dead wife.

What's the reason for Validar to be a crazy Grima worshipper? ...

...

...

So?

And that's the problem with all the new FE villains: no motivations. My favorite is Walhart because he had more plausible reasons.

But the others? Gangrel's revenge is brought down by his pathethic bad cartoon villain attitude. Sad, because he has potential.

Aversa and Validar love Grima because.

Iago wants to be powerful or some reason like that. He seems to exist only to be an hindrance.

Hans is the early game bandit boss, except now he is a major endgame boss.

Garon is just a pawn slime monster who hates and wants to destroy everyone.

Anankos is mad because people don't love him anymore... really?

And not only they lack good motivations, but also good speeches, writing, et cetera. These games really need some entertaining villains!

They all have the basis to be fun, but the execution is too poor. I really don't ask much (I enjoy a lot of things in old FE plots, my standards for this series are not high... but neither too low), only baddies that are fun to read, fun to get angry at (Sonia, Julius, Alvis), fun to sympathize with (Lyon, Zephiel, heck even Sephiran)... badguys that feel relevant, that feel important, and give weight to the plot.

About Anankos: It's not that he went mad just because the Vallite hated him, but the fact that they were the same people that everything they had now was thanks to him. I mean, It must have been a really hard hit to see something like that, especially when you wild instict just begun to came out.

Then again, I just freaking love his dragon design and his backstory.

Btw, one thing I didn't like about Fates was the lack of anti-turtling: in nearly every chapter, you don't have any reason to rush and you can just go very slowly.

I'm not asking for things like chapter 12, but at least for something simple like a thief stealing a chest or powerful reinforcements, if you take too much time.

Ah, and for Nergal: wasn't implied in the game that he became evil because his thirsty for power made him forget what he truly wanted to do? Or I'm saying things?

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

if we're playing the "well real life religion is like that too" then we might as well take it a step further and compair the grima worship to islam or something.

ofcourse not only is this an awful idea for a subject, it will get the thread locked in about 5 seconds so how about we, don't try to bring religion into story stuff.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

if we're playing the "well real life religion is like that too" then we might as well take it a step further and compair the grima worship to islam or something.

ofcourse not only is this an awful idea for a subject, it will get the thread locked in about 5 seconds so how about we, don't try to bring religion into story stuff.

I don't want to be a sourpuss but I don't think anybody mentioned real-life religion, and also the Grimleal is a major point in Awakening' story and the cause of many of its events. I can't think criticizing its story without criticizing the Grimleal. But if it's a problem then I will stop this discussion on it.

About Anankos: It's not that he went mad just because the Vallite hated him, but the fact that they were the same people that everything they had now was thanks to him. I mean, It must have been a really hard hit to see something like that, especially when you wild instict just begun to came out.

Then again, I just freaking love his dragon design and his backstory.

I have yet to play Rev but I know how it works, and it still doesn't convince me. It takes cues from "Dragons go mad" from Archanea, and that's interesting, but it baffles me I have to buy more DLC to understand the story better!

[Butterfly Pink]

I'm going to be the minority (here), and state that I was on the fence about Fates until I heard that children units were returning. Most of my offline time is spent planning builds and pairings. Without them, the game would lose most of its appeal and replay value for me. My friends and I love talking about the units, the children, the benefits of pairings, debating the best uses of certain children, who are more important to optimize; etc.

Do I like the way it was handled? Eh, could be better, but I wasn't expecting a lot about a game that doesn't hold these children at the forefront. Even better, some of the children make a point of letting their parents know just how they felt about the treatment.

I do feel the game has way too many characters, and it takes away from the character quality as a whole. The multiple routes thing was a fine diversion, but there were times that I wondered why I was even bothering. I'm now beating Birthright/Conquest on Lunatic (already done Revelations) because I can, but then... Conquest is my favorite story, Birthright lets me use Scarlet, whom I want to invest in to making as amazing as she can be because of her sweet personal skill, and Revelations... I'll do a run when I've finally determined what pairings I'd want for PvP (with my friends), and I'll keep that final save because I love the boss fight, but the rest of the route was really bad. I hated all the gimmicks. I hated that it played so poorly that it destroyed all my desire to replay the route, the route that was supposed to be my eugenics playground. I constantly say the writing is the worst part of Fates.

Honestly, if there were a better "eugenics" title, I probably wouldn't play FE. I like the games well enough, and mechanically they're a ton of fun, but most of my time spent with Awakening wasn't the 1300'ish hours I logged in game, but the countless hours I spent in research and pairing planning.

One idea I had for a future implementation of the Avatar system was requiring the Avatar marry into a faction for their military/political support ala Robb Stark in GoT. Players would be able to satisfy their shipping urges and the choice would affect gameplay and story. Allying with one faction would get you unique support but may put you at ends with rival factions. Marriage is a popular mechanic, and political marriages are a great source of drama. Why hasn't this happened yet?

If IS made this game, with all the replay value this would have, and all the different pairings and builds I'd have to research, I'd find every excuse I could to throw money at them. I've bought people 3DS and copies of the game for Fates, despite my issues with it. I'd go all out for this game because I'd rather have all my friends playing this than anything else I could spend my money on (except food? I like food.).

If someone else makes it? I'd want to play the new FE titles, but at some point it wouldn't be worth it. I have limited time, too limited to keep up with most of the games I already own, and a game like this would quite possibly be enough to satisfy me for thousands of hours of my free time.

I've got a niche I like, and FE satisfies it in a way no other game has. Oreshika and Golden Chalice have faceless people who die too quickly to get attached to or care about. Crusader Kings is more spreadsheets and less game. That being said, if FE's story could even begin to approach Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together, or the depth and wealth of character investment you get in Persona 4, then it might overcome its current status as my niche.

It's a shame I choose not to pirate games. I'd like to try out some of the older titles, but Nintendo is bound and determined to make them impossible to acquire. If they'd just make some of the older games available for digital download for modern consoles, I'd have my free time all planned out.