Is Plot Based Promotion a thing of the past (and should it remain that way)?

[Jotari]

The last two games in the series have had the lord promoting like a regular unit, no doubt due to the emphasis on reclassing. The two games before that were remakes of Marth's games which didn't feature a promotion for the lord at all. That means the last time we've had plot based promotions was in Radiant Dawn, almost ten years ago. Is this an element of the series you think won't be coming back? And do you want it to come back. On one hand not having to keep your lord stuck on level 20 for ten chapters is pretty convenient (*cough*, *cough* Roy), on the other having the lord promote at a certain point in the story really helps to give a sense of progression for the character and plot, and makes the lord stand out as more than just a regular unit. What's your opinion? Do the practical benefits out weight the narrative ones?

Edited June 16, 2016 by Jotari

[X-Naut]

If the protagonist is being held back without a narrative reason then it has no business being in the game. In any case, it shouldn't be overly restrictive: Ike in PoR promoted at a fine time, but all the GBA ones (including the non-forced Heaven Seals in 7) ranged from kind of late to crippling.

If done well I wouldn't mind it happening every so often, but it has to be done well.

[Original Alear]

Just make sure the lord gets a new sprite. Leaf didn't get one in FE5 when he promoted and that was lame.

[Quintessence]

I liked it. It was like a way to make people certain that the lord evolved in certain aspects: rank, maturity, leadership, etc., and I would love it to return. New models, unique sprites, unique outfit, unique abilities and leadership being materialized are things the lords deserve at time-locked promotions. It has to have a narrative reason, else it makes no sense. It also needs to be triggered at a reasonable time of the game; for instance, PoR Ike is the only one that I feel was really good. Micaiah's was err... ok but it didn't felt as good as Ike's because of Micaiah's prowess as a unit.

EDIT: That said, Ellibe promotions were terrible in terms of the time of the game.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Quintessence

[MCProductions]

While I'm somewhat partial to Roy's promotion time for seeing someone usually seen as a weaking turn into an amazing badass. Apparently my runs are abnormal in this but whatever. I love choosing when the Lord promotes in the newer games, since in repeat playthroughs where I change the plot to my liking in my head I decide when the Lord has matured enough for promotion.

[Raguna]

I'd love for it to come back, but as it stands I don't think IS will do that anymore which makes me feel sad. True from a gameplay perspective, only PoR Ike did it in a good timely fashion but narratively it works well. Because in the narrative, it means that something in that character has changed or the stakes has been raised to a degree that the character must evolve and adapt to a position of more power in the narrative.

This also sorta extends to my idea of holy weapons as well. Sure in Awakening and Fates you had them and they upgraded with you, but honestly I prefer my character having something like what Marth (Rapier) or Ephraim (Reginleif) has before moving to the Falchion or Siegmund later on. If they just have the weapon already and then it gets upgraded it doesn't really have that much of an impulse in the narrative. If we get them later when we truly need them, then units like Ryoma and Xander wouldn't feel so OP from the start and feel stale as character in the story.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Raguna

[Caliban of Sycorax]

I felt that Eirika and Ephraim's promotions worked fine in terms of story, and the game is so short that it's hard to judge a proper time to allow them to promote anyway. The Elibe promotions were all awfully late in the game, especially Roy's, thus giving you no time to use them to full potential (except maybe the two other lords in FE7, especially Hector's mode). Same with Micaiah's third tier promotion; she is a (hopefully) 20/20/1 unit going into the Endgame when everyone else is ~20/20/10 or higher. Hell, even Sothe has an extra chapter to run around and get levels (although he should be getting treasures, it gives him an excuse to level up his knife rank), and Ike's chapters have so much unit density that with regular combat he'll have plenty of levels.

I personally think the main characters of the game should promote when it is relevant to the plot, but most of these promotions come right before the climax of the story, thus giving them little time to utilize their promotion and they are usually so severely under leveled that they are quite useless.

[Shadow Mir]

I'd say good riddance to plot based promotions - what little it does for the narrative is by far outweighed by how terribly executed it tended to be. The more I think about it, the more I think "why in the seven hells was this ever a thing in the first place, given that most all plot based promotions were poorly handled???".

Edited June 16, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Katie]

I'd rather they didn't come back. I like choosing when my units promote.

[Busterman64]

Plot promotions are alright if the timing is right. Not only that, but the main character should be powerful enough beforehand. And by that, I mean they shouldn't have to really be in need of their promotion to get actually really good, but to improve and get even better(looking at you Roy......you're still alright though...).

The lords of FE7 and (especially) FE6 have it pretty bad with timing!

Ike from PoR has the best timed plot promotion hands down. This is kinda helped by that Ike is pretty good even at early levels. However, you're put into enough situations where Ike can't do everything(and can't be everywhere) and you NEED to train everyone else well. I know that kinda sounds dumb to say because you need to do that in Fire Emblem in-general, but I feel like this game really pushes that you can't just mainly rely on Ike( especially when it comes to magic) for a good chunk of the game. So, by the time Chap.17 rolls around, Ike is either at lvl.20 or is just about there(and due to certain events, you're probably not gonna use him too much after the half-way point of Chapter 17). Either way, you don't have to wait long before you promote!

...you know, now that I think about it, Ike probably has the best plot promotion moments in (mostly) PoR AND (more or less)RD! Mainly because you have enough time(and enemies) to level Ike up by promotion time and you have a good amount of time( and again, enemies) to let him reach lvl.20 premoted too!

Honorable mention to Eirika and Ephriam from SS because even if you don't grind, they have enough time and enemies to reach lvl.20 in time and you can choose to wait if you want( because the plot still works well if you don't immediately)!

......Although, when I think about it, you couldn't really grind in PoR or RD(...well, unless you boss abused). The pace had to really be planned out. The created Avatar(Robin and Corrin), have grinding easily open to them and to a great degree(even more so then Sacred Stones), so the timing could be thrown off immensely if it's planned for a certain point.

So......unfortunately, with how things are now, we might not have them anymore because it makes things more flexible for players.

However, I personally wouldn't mind it if it was planned out well like Ike's plot promotions. They can work really well, but only if timed right(but...you would have to lose your ability to grind...which is fine with me honestly. I'm fine either way)!

Edited June 16, 2016 by Busterman64

[NekoKnight]

As long as they get the timing right, I think it's okay to have. I like the updated portraits some characters got, plus it can be used for story developments.

[Quintessence]

I'd say good riddance to plot based promotions - what little it does for the narrative is by far outweighed by how terribly executed it tended to be. The more I think about it, the more I think "why in the seven hells was this ever a thing in the first place, given that most all plot based promotions were poorly handled???".

PoR and RD did them good.

Ike promotes because he's named by Elincia as Commander of the Crimean Liberation Army. It is a title he pretty much gains by effort, and occurs by the transition of mid-game to late-game. In RD he gets Vanguard class because of Yune's Blessings and their quest to defeat the Begnion Senate and reach the Guiding Tower.

Micaiah earned the title of Captain of Daein's Liberation Army, and promoted after 1-E; story wise it is ok. Don't remember quite clearly the reason Micaiah promotes to Priestess, probably because it is revealed she's the True Apostle?

However, the difference between both of them is the utility. Ike's is seen better because he is already a good unit combat wise, while Micaiah's is seen useless because people see pretty much no motivation on training her as a unit, given how much more difficult it is for Micaiah to be a good unit. But, putting things into context, Micaiah is likely to be a decent unit with the BEXP system although not as good (or useful) as Ike.

Sadly, due to reclassing, avatar, customization and such are trending topic in FE I highly doubt plot-based promotion will return.

[Jotari]

For those of you saying Ike's was the only promotion that was timed well, I'd like to draw attention to Leif the (I believe) first instance of forced promotion. He promotes at the end of Chapter 18, which given the Gaidens and the fact that Ike's chapter 17 is really four chapters, it's almost exactly the same time in the game. He then has nine chapters as a promoted lord (including Gaidens) where's Ike has twelve. Plotwise it also suits very well since it's right when Leif reclaims his castle and truly becomes Prince of Leinster. Everything about his promotion is excellent...except he doesn't get a sprite change or any extra weapons...Really the Prince class in Holy War should have had staves just like the Princess class. Then Leif could get them on promotion in Thracia. God knows an extra stave user in Thracia is never unwelcome.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Jotari

[Sylphid]

I'm echoing others here, but I wouldn't mind it returning if it works narratively and in terms of gameplay time. As far as I remember, PoR was the only game in the series that made me go "wow" with a plot promotion (though I also was a lot younger back then). And timing in PoR is pretty much spot-on.

Elibe promotions were especially bad, for the reasons already stated.

I'm also wondering how plot promotion would work with free promotion. Say, the Lord would be given a free promotion at a major plot point if he hadn't promoted yet? Or alternatively, a major characterization moment would unlock the Lord promotion but he could have done reclass promotion before.

(I'll admit right away I'm not liking this idea)

Micaiah earned the title of Captain of Daein's Liberation Army, and promoted after 1-E; story wise it is ok. Don't remember quite clearly the reason Micaiah promotes to Priestess, probably because it is revealed she's the True Apostle?

I thought it was because Yune blessed her at that point?

The reveal was saved for epilogue as far as I remember (well, full reveal, anyways)

[Quintessence]

Hmm I think plot based promotion is mutually exclusive with reclassing. It's like Chrom being unable to promote as a lord by some time of the game but he can fully take advantage of being a Cavalier or Paladin by early or mid game, and that would devaluate the Lord class inmediately; labelling it as, pressumably, unviable and undesirable.

[henrymidfields]

Binding Blade being the first game I played in the FE series, I didn't have much beef with Roy's promotion. In fact, I actually thought that was the norm for FE. If FE6 was remade, then maybe Roy's promotion should be in Chapter 16, or alternatively, have his unpromoted class cap at Level 30, and his promoted class at Level 10.

[Azz]

Personally, I would prefer if we didn't have them. The only one I really liked was Ike in PoR since it was early enough and made sense. As for the Elibe duo, yeah, they were way too late and half the time my Lords were under leveled compared to my other units. In SS it was not so bad since you could choose to promote after Chapter 16 (I think it was 16), if you didn't want to then and there, but still, I was not a fan since it was like only 4 chapters before the end of the game (Though it did allow me to do my no promotions run which was 'fun'...).In RD, well, I am not a fan of RD anyways, so half the time I don't make it to Ike's Vanguard and Miccy's Priestess promotions, but I did not think they were too bad.

[Magical Glace]

I liked it for FE9!Ike. Reasonable timing, not really crippling in any way.

It was pretty bad for everyone else who promotes via story. Especially Roy.

So if it's like Ike's, it's fine.

Otherwise, please no.

[X-Naut]

For those of you saying Ike's was the only promotion that was timed well, I'd like to draw attention to Leif the (I believe) first instance of forced promotion. He promotes at the end of Chapter 18, which given the Gaidens and the fact that Ike's chapter 17 is really four chapters, it's almost exactly the same time in the game. He then has nine chapters as a promoted lord (including Gaidens) where's Ike has twelve. Plotwise it also suits very well since it's right when Leif reclaims his castle and truly becomes Prince of Leinster. Everything about his promption is excellent...except he doesn't get a sprite change or any extra weapons...

The problem is that Leif's promotion could hardly be called a promotion :p

[Lord Raven]

Leif's promotion gives him more levels even if he only gets +1 per stat.

Ike's promotion comes when the maps ramp up in length/enemy density, by the way; not all chapters are created equal.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

That means the last time we've had plot based promotions was in Radiant Dawn, almost ten years ago.

Stop making me feel old, dangit.

Anyway, I'm going to echo the view that "it's fine if it's a good time". Personally, I think Path of Radiance and Sacred Stones had good timing (can't speak of Thracia 776), while Eliwood/Hector's was bad, and those of FE10... honestly, I'm not sure. It is kind of annoying to lose levels (either through reaching 20 too early, or promoting before level 20).

Honestly, I think forced promotions would actually work best with a level system like that in Genealogy of the Holy War. As in, maintaining one's level upon promotion, and approaching a cap that's shared by promoted and unpromoted classes. That way, whether Seliph gained his horse at Lv. 15 or Lv. 25, he really wouldn't be missing out on any levels.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Sacred stones had good timing? thats highly amusing because its promotion comes 4 chapters before the end of the game, like with roy's or Eliwood/hector.

just pointing out an inconsistency.

[sirmola]

Honestly, there are other ways to show character development using mechanics that don't force you to level up in a certain way. For example, you can do what fates did and use personal weapons to show character development (although fates could have done it much better). You can start the main character off with a weak personal skill and then buff it partway through the game. You can simply buff the main character's stats (like an FE4 conversation). Those are just the ones i can think up off the top of my head.

[CT075]

Personally I like the "promotion" as a narrative device, but maybe not so much as a gameplay one. Maybe some kind of hybrid approach (you pick when you officially promote, but 75% through the story the lord gets a major buff+sprite overhaul?) so it kind of evens out? idk I thought that FE13 would have been really well done if Chrom got some kind of visually obvious buff at the end of the first arc (Awoken Falchion was actually really cool, both narratively and gameplay-wise! Just make it do more visually so it makes me feel more awesome and maybe not for the literal last two maps).

Edited June 17, 2016 by CT075

[MCProductions]

Personally I like the "promotion" as a narrative device, but maybe not so much as a gameplay one. Maybe some kind of hybrid approach (you pick when you officially promote, but 75% through the story the lord gets a major buff+sprite overhaul?) so it kind of evens out? idk I thought that FE13 would have been really well done if Chrom got some kind of visually obvious buff at the end of the first arc (Awoken Falchion was actually really cool, both narratively and gameplay-wise! Just make it do more visually so it makes me feel more awesome and maybe not for the literal last two maps).

This pretty much, on repeated playthroughs of Awakening and Fates, I appreciate the ability to promote whenever, but I miss how well plot based promoting worked plot wise. Maybe have something similar to the Falchion or the Yato, but when it's "awakened" the Lord gets a special new battle animation whenever they use the weapon.