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Jotari

Is Plot Based Promotion a thing of the past (and should it remain that way)?

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Sacred stones had good timing? thats highly amusing because its promotion comes 4 chapters before the end of the game, like with roy's or Eliwood/hector.

just pointing out an inconsistency.

Technically, counting the endgame, you get up to 5 chapters with promoted Wonder Twins.

Of course, it's also important to note that up to that point, you have either 11 or 17 chapters to raise Eirika from Level 1, and either 4 or 10 chapters to raise Ephraim from Level 5, depending on which route you take. As well as potential grinding, but in my experience (hah) that's unnecessary for the main lords.

In Binding Blade, Roy spends anywhere from 21 to 27 chapters unpromoted, and either 1 or 4 chapters with promoted Roy.

Eliwood (in his mode) gets between 17 and 22 chapters unpromoted, and 4 chapters promoted. (not counting the "Battle Prep" chapter)

Hector (in his mode) takes 19 to 25 chapters unpromoted, and either 4 or 5 chapters promoted. (again, not counting the "Battle Prep" chapter)

For comparison's sake, PoR Ike has 18 chapters unpromoted (if Oliver's is counted as a single chapter), and then 12 chapters promoted.

So, I would say that Roy easily has it worst, then Hector, then Eliwood. Honestly, the Lord and Lady of Renais spend fewer chapters unpromoted than any other lord character in the GBA era, and about the same number post-promotion. That's not to say that they necessarily promote at a "good" time, just that it comes slightly better than any other GBA main lords. And, in my experience, I've never had much trouble with Eirika or Ephraim ramming their level cap too early. Meanwhile, Roy and Hector have spent about 10 chapters maxed out with no promotion in sight.

Although I will concede that Ike easily wins in "ability to reach Level 20 promoted", among those I've listed, in ability to reach Level 20 promoted. Barring, of course, Magvellian monster grinding.

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Ike's was fine, Micaiah's was less fine but tolerable, every other one was bad (though Leif's was okay-ish I guess and the FE8 twins didn't kill them).

If you literally end up sitting your main character out of battles because they'll steal exp due to being max level and unable to promote that's a problem. I had Roy sitting in the background for like, half the game because he hit 20 early on. Same thing with Hector/Eliwood.

I did like it as a story thing, but honestly I prefer the concept of the legendary weapons in FE6/7 (sort of) and FE14 - it still makes you feel cooler and more powerful when you get them but it didn't hinder gameplay as much as semi-benching your own lord. That being said none of those do it particularly well... it would be nice if they continued playing with the idea, I think.

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Technically, counting the endgame, you get up to 5 chapters with promoted Wonder Twins.

Of course, it's also important to note that up to that point, you have either 11 or 17 chapters to raise Eirika from Level 1, and either 4 or 10 chapters to raise Ephraim from Level 5, depending on which route you take. As well as potential grinding, but in my experience (hah) that's unnecessary for the main lords.

In Binding Blade, Roy spends anywhere from 21 to 27 chapters unpromoted, and either 1 or 4 chapters with promoted Roy.

Eliwood (in his mode) gets between 17 and 22 chapters unpromoted, and 4 chapters promoted. (not counting the "Battle Prep" chapter)

Hector (in his mode) takes 19 to 25 chapters unpromoted, and either 4 or 5 chapters promoted. (again, not counting the "Battle Prep" chapter)

For comparison's sake, PoR Ike has 18 chapters unpromoted (if Oliver's is counted as a single chapter), and then 12 chapters promoted.

So, I would say that Roy easily has it worst, then Hector, then Eliwood. Honestly, the Lord and Lady of Renais spend fewer chapters unpromoted than any other lord character in the GBA era, and about the same number post-promotion. That's not to say that they necessarily promote at a "good" time, just that it comes slightly better than any other GBA main lords. And, in my experience, I've never had much trouble with Eirika or Ephraim ramming their level cap too early. Meanwhile, Roy and Hector have spent about 10 chapters maxed out with no promotion in sight.

Although I will concede that Ike easily wins in "ability to reach Level 20 promoted", among those I've listed, in ability to reach Level 20 promoted. Barring, of course, Magvellian monster grinding.

Throwing some of these into a calculator and assuming full chapter playthroughs, I get

-Roy Promotes 87% of the way through his game.

-Eliwood Promotes at 84% of the way through his game.

-Hector Promotes at 83% of the way through his game, so Eliwood surprisingly has it worse than Hector. Don't know how that works out but it's the result I came to twice.

-Eirika sits at 77% on her route

-Ephraim has a tidy 75%, though he starts at level 5 so it's probably best to assume it's the same as Erikia.

- (POR)!Ike has a solid 60% of the way through his game, 63% if you count his promotion chapter as 4 chapers.

-And for the sake of completion, Leif 24 chapters out of 33 waits at 72% of the way through his game.

-(RD)!Ike has 11 chapters out of 19 or 57%

-Micaiah promtes at 11 and 16 of 21 chapters, 52% and 76% respectively (so at 24% in her second tier, of which one chapter she's trapped behind the front lines, she has by far the shortest amount of levelling time)

-And Sothe promotes at 12 of 19 or 63% of the way through. Though he is a prepromote and gainin much less exp for much of that.

So basically the calculations work with how people view them. It seems 60%-70% of the way through a game is the magic number and anything below 80% is generally considered acceptable.

The army hopping and existence of BEXP as a concept also means Radiant Dawn ones aren't truly compareable to the others. And as someone else pointed out, enemy desnsity plays a pretty big factor in this too as does what other character's you're raising in the army. Micaiah for example has a chapter with just her and the Black Knight so she's the only one who's going to be getting any exp there.

And funnily enough if Roy promoted before the Apocalypse Gaiden instead of after it then he would have been knocked down to 84% of the way through his game, pretty similar to Eliwood.

Edited by Jotari

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Stop making me feel old, dangit.

Honestly, I think forced promotions would actually work best with a level system like that in Genealogy of the Holy War. As in, maintaining one's level upon promotion, and approaching a cap that's shared by promoted and unpromoted classes. That way, whether Seliph gained his horse at Lv. 15 or Lv. 25, he really wouldn't be missing out on any levels.

That would solve a lot of the problem. Especially for Roy, he can just gain levels like everybody else; all he lack is the promotion stat raises until Chapter 21, and that can be worked around by feeding him extra levels. Lords should have a different level count structure to everybody else. Just have single level cap that is the total (which is Level 40 for the GBA games) as the sole maximum level and allow the Lords to keep his/her overall level count, as well as allow them to keep training and not be hend back by an artificial level cap. That way, all they lack until promotion time are the added stat raises.

Edited by henrymidfields

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Throwing some of these into a calculator and assuming full chapter playthroughs, I get

-Roy Promotes 87% of the way through his game.

-Eliwood Promotes at 84% of the way through his game.

-Hector Promotes at 83% of the way through his game, so Eliwood surprisingly has it worse than Hector. Don't know how that works out but it's the result I came to twice.

-Eirika sits at 77% on her route

-Ephraim has a tidy 75%, though he starts at level 5 so it's probably best to assume it's the same as Erikia.

- (POR)!Ike has a solid 60% of the way through his game, 63% if you count his promotion chapter as 4 chapers.

-And for the sake of completion, Leif 24 chapters out of 33 waits at 72% of the way through his game.

-(RD)!Ike has 11 chapters out of 19 or 57%

-Micaiah promtes at 11 and 16 of 21 chapters, 52% and 76% respectively (so at 24% in her second tier, of which one chapter she's trapped behind the front lines, she has by far the shortest amount of levelling time)

-And Sothe promotes at 12 of 19 or 63% of the way through. Though he is a prepromote and gainin much less exp for much of that.

So basically the calculations work with how people view them. It seems 60%-70% of the way through a game is the magic number and anything below 80% is generally considered acceptable.

The army hopping and existence of BEXP as a concept also means Radiant Dawn ones aren't truly compareable to the others. And as someone else pointed out, enemy desnsity plays a pretty big factor in this too as does what other character's you're raising in the army. Micaiah for example has a chapter with just her and the Black Knight so she's the only one who's going to be getting any exp there.

And funnily enough if Roy promoted before the Apocalypse Gaiden instead of after it then he would have been knocked down to 84% of the way through his game, pretty similar to Eliwood.

Wow, thanks for figuring this all out! Just goes to show, things look a little different whether you look at them in raw numbers or percentages.

Although I want to note - Sothe promotes at the end of 4-Prologue. This means that he spends 9 chapters (counting the seperate phases of Raise the Standard as 2, not counting One Survives) in part I, 3 chapters in part III, and 1 chapter in part IV unpromoted, then 1 chapter in part IV and the 5 endgame phases promoted. So, 13 unpromoted, 6 promoted means his actually comes 68% of the way through. Because of his "Oifey" status, I feel like this is actually a really good time for him, so long as you haven't been using him excessively.

Additionally, if Raise the Standard is counted as 2, Micaiah's promotions come at 12 and 17 of 22, or 55% and 77% through. Honestly, I feel like she'd do a lot better if her first promotion came right before I-endgame - that way "One Survives" would offer a "last chance" for leveling Micaiah, and she can get a jump-start on promoted levels. Plus, it could work story-wise, as Pelleas grants Micaiah the strength for the final step in liberating Daein.

Buff Ike does indeed have 11 chapters preceding promotion, but only 2 part IV chapters, plus the 5-stage endgame afterwards, meaning an 11:7 ratio, or 61% through. Of course, Ike starts at Level 11, so if you actually use him, he's likely to ram up on Level 20 early. His promotion might be better-placed if he either started at a much lower level, or if it occurred when he received the Ragnell at the start of III-11.

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^Chapter length is very inequally spread across the game in RD. The 4 bosskill maps in endgame are much shorter than the routs before. Arguably you could count them as roughly a third of a chapter each. (Mostly talking about the Ike part here, still kinda applies to the DB)

Edited by Gradivus.

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I don't think it will return but if it does, it needs to be at a good time

Ike promoted at the perfect time in POR, but the GBA games lords , especially Roy, promoted way too late.

I don't mind it if it's done well

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I prefer the series to go on without it. The narrative benefits do not outweigh the gameplay consequences imo. The most you lose without forced promotions is a sense of growth and progress from a character or narrative standpoint, which can be attained without forced promotion. Honestly if you didn't get your legendary weapon until the late game that alone would be a good tool for showing character growth, especially if they had to undergo an arduous task to acquire it.

Timing doesn't seem to be the primary concern with previous forced promotions. Since promotion timings have been hit-and-miss at best, you can probably expect future games with forced promotions to be hit-and-miss.

Having said that, a note on reclassing: You can create a bit of code that prohibits the lord character to use Master Seals even if they reclass. If future reclass systems use Fates' level retention (level 10 Lord reclassing to level 10 Cavalier), then it would be a solid system.

Will it return? Probably/Eventually. Not every new game is going to be Awakening/Fates (I should hope).

Should it return? Debatable; you can't count on the timing being good for gameplay.

Edited by TripleJ

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