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@blah:In European law, yes. However, the Constitution is uncharacteristically binding compared to other democratic unions before and after it. Also, unlike the Confederate States, it wasn't automatic, and it doesn't seem that the UK is seeking to sever ties with the individual countries in Europe, compared to the swift, automatic, and hostile severing of ties with the US each Southern State had. If the EU treaty were as binding as the Constitution, Britain probably would've perished the thought of even attempting something like this.

I'm talking about Scottish Independance with relation to Brexit. As much as I disagree with the choice, the U.K. is legally allowed to leave the EU.

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Answer me this: should the Confederates have been independent? Based on the right of self determination they should have been.

Um, saying that people have a right to self-determination does not suddenly mean that the CSA should've been independent.

The CSA expressed their self-determination (which was, primarily, to retain slavery) by going to war, and they lost.

Scotland has the right to, if they choose to do so, hold a vote to determine whether they wish to remain part of the UK. Holding a vote does NOT mean they should automatically be independent; self-determination is about them deciding what THEY want for themselves. Whether it's remaining part of the UK, or going their own way.

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^The Union of Scotland and England is non-binding. If the people want, they can leave. However, Texas thought it was entering a non-binding agreement, but it was just as binding as any other annexation the US had made before or since then, save maybe Hawaii.

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The British causing a global economic downturn is obviously not going to make them friends with most of the developed and developing world. The London exchange had a bit of a crash, and apparently the Tokyo exchange as well. Will be interesting to see what happens over in New York.

I expect the British won't be getting any trade agreements with the EU, and might just be made an example of to discourage any other people from leaving willy-nilly.

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I think it’s important to call out opinions like this is “interesting” or “amusing” (outside pure academic context or morbid humor, even then there should be some pause) because this is not reality TV, for entertainment purposes. This affects the economy and people’s livelihood in potentially significant ways. While it’s true no one knows exactly what’s going the happen, the markets will be volatile in the short term and in such times the poor/disadvantaged are often hurt the most. Systemically they can less afford uncertain and fearful markets than the wealthy, at best. At worst…

Sure, telling people that they’re voting against their interests (or more bluntly, voting “stupidly”) is absolutely ineffective. Especially if it’s the well-educated experts/elites saying so.

But without rational arguments, what’s left? The electorate simply votes on emotion (or ignorance. And that is not a slight on the electorate, but rather the politicians who spouted lies and propaganda knowingly). And I suppose that’s intended to be as condescending as it may sound. (still fairly salty, and Nov looms)

Basically democracy was a mistake, it’s nothing but trash, don’t ever laugh at us about Trump again, etc.

I do hope for the best, friends. (plz just copy the swiss in everything)

Technically the referendum is non binding. I'm not holding that to mean anything though, despite whatever reporting has been going on about some people regretting their leave votes.

Ultimately, I actually worry less about the immediate aftermath and economic unrest, and more about what will come from that. "Blame the migrants" was a convenient scapegoat this time, but if conditions stagnate or worsen, who or what is the electorate going to turn on next in this emotionally driven, "post factual" democracy? If jingoism continues to spread, maybe the return of conflicts in Western Europe isn't something to be entirely scoffed at anymore at all.

PS: Good luck with Trump.

Edited by Irysa

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^The Union of Scotland and England is non-binding. If the people want, they can leave. However, Texas thought it was entering a non-binding agreement, but it was just as binding as any other annexation the US had made before or since then, save maybe Hawaii.

Define non binding. Because an act of Parliament seems damn binding to me.

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Define non binding. Because an act of Parliament seems damn binding to me.

It was a treaty, not an Act of Parliament, which is tantamount to a law, which can be changed or thrown out at any time anyway.

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It was a treaty, not an Act of Parliament, which is tantamount to a law, which can be changed or thrown out at any time anyway.

"The Acts of Union were two Acts of Parliament: the Union with Scotland Act 1706 passed by the Parliament of England, and the Union with England Act passed in 1707 by the Parliament of Scotland. They put into effect the terms of the Treaty of Union that had been agreed on 22 July 1706, following negotiation between commissioners representing the parliaments of the two countries. By the two Acts, the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland—which at the time were separate states with separate legislatures, but with the same monarch—were, in the words of the Treaty, "United into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain"

From Wikipedia. So yep, it was an act of Parliament. And yeah, laws can be changed, but that should be minimized, especially in cases where there isn't any good reason.

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Self determination in case of severe political disagreements has been a solid foundation for secession for hundreds of years.

Are you deliberately referencing the CSA here? Because, in my mind, political disagreements isn't cause to secede, and if disagreeing over slavery wasn't enough, I pretty much think nothing is.

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Most of my fellow Americans don't have the context to realize just how much policymaking control the European Union has over its members. The Brits had every reason to leave, and I'm positively thrilled that they had the nerve to do it. It won't be easy and it'll take time, but it's going to happen now and they'll be a better, happier nation of people for it.

A non apocalyptic immigration policy, should they bother to implement one, will only be the icing on the cake. Not having to bail out fellow EU members that are drowning under the weights of their untenable social programs has got to be one of the bigger victories here, and not having unelected bureaucrats on the continent dictating how the English are to live their lives is possibly the biggest of all. It is unreal that what were once the biggest colonial powers on the globe would ever have surrendered their sovereignty the way Europe has, but the Brits have finally taken control of their destiny once more. I hope more follow soon.

Edited by Duff Ostrich

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To me the EU isn't quite the surrender of power but the only way for the European countries to hold on to what little powers they still posses. What were once the biggest colonial powers will have a very hard time standing up for themselves when huge countries like India, Brazil and China have fully risen. Those countries have multi tens, if not hundreds of millions of people, a lot of European countries struggle to reach a population of 20 million.

If a European nation would protest to, lets say Russia against undue treatment on its part then Russia is just going to laugh that country out of the room if the rest of the EU doesn't have that countries back.

Edited by Etrurian emperor

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Technically the referendum is non binding. I'm not holding that to mean anything though, despite whatever reporting has been going on about some people regretting their leave votes.

Ultimately, I actually worry less about the immediate aftermath and economic unrest, and more about what will come from that. "Blame the migrants" was a convenient scapegoat this time, but if conditions stagnate or worsen, who or what is the electorate going to turn on next in this emotionally driven, "post factual" democracy? If jingoism continues to spread, maybe the return of conflicts in Western Europe isn't something to be entirely scoffed at anymore at all.

PS: Good luck with Trump.

Sadly, it probably doesn’t matter if it’s non-binding. The dominos are already falling. Markets are shifting, EU is pressuring, etc. The logistics alone of a revote (perhaps first need a general election?) would take time and the world is changing.

You do bring up an astute point. Regardless of the actual result (and there’s certainly many legitimate concerns regarding the EU), the undercurrent has very scary implications. This decision was probably worth billions/trillions of pounds and may affect millions of lives, one way or another. But maybe the real fear is that the next few could lead to larger-scale violent conflict. If more separatist movements succeed, without solid economic ties holding countries together, the ideology of Nationalism suggests…

And how far away is that, really? If Trump wins along similar sentiments, he has access to nukes, and Congress/Supreme Court have very limited checks there. Who actually trusts his self-control, given his history and the election so far? And even if he loses, the amount of white nationalism now so prevalent in mainstream discourse portends future disasters (unless it’s a complete landslide, which seems to be increasingly unlikely).

(I suppose it’s somewhat “immoral” to escalate the fearmongering in this way, but call me selfish, I just want to avoid nuclear war and secure scotus for a generation, then figure the rest out.)

This particular referendum is certainly close enough that there’s a compelling political/economic argument for it to be primarily a result of decades of rational euroskepticism (though some would say scapegoating) rather than assuming the worst about the UK electorate’s xenophobia. But surely it’s equally crucial to not sweep under the rug undeniably growing nationalist sentiments.

Also to preempt another point (from whoever) that tends to come up in these discussions: there’s usually accusations of unfair intolerance or stereotyping of the leave side as “uneducated” or “racist/xenophobic” or “stupid (against self-interest)” or such.

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Ill-vs-Good-768x757.jpg (better cross-tabs would be useful here)

http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/files/2016/06/brexit-big-five.png

http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/files/2016/06/brexit-exports.png

While I think it is inevitably mean-spirited by nature of the point being made, the trends are pretty clear. Statistics are ever lies but some are pretty hard to spin.

Not 100% either way obviously, so there’s many anecdotes of those clinging to the more sane points, but some of the solid supermajorities say a lot.

Edited by XeKr

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Brazil

Eh, probably not a good example, considering the massive number of issues the country is going through right now.

Edited by CyborgZeta

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Quite frankly, I'm not suprised at all.

What did you expect?

Eh, probably not a good example, considering the massive number of issues the country is going through right now.

I have to agree.

We are...not in the best situation at the moment.

Edited by Water Mage

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Quite frankly, I'm not suprised at all.

What did you expect?

I EXPECT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHAT THEY'RE VOTING FOR BEFORE THEY VOTE FOR IT

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I EXPECT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHAT THEY'RE VOTING FOR BEFORE THEY VOTE FOR IT

That would require common sense, which sadly, is something the world is lacking right now.

All it takes is a clever politician say some pretty words about how "We are powerful!", "We don't need the EU!" Or "They are trying to control us!", etc, and people will follow like sheep.

Patriotism is a good thing, but a smart person can use it for a lot of bad things.

Edited by Water Mage

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I EXPECT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHAT THEY'RE VOTING FOR BEFORE THEY VOTE FOR IT

oh, you poor, poor soul. it happens all the time. people tend to be fairly ignorant in politics. here's an example (at least in the sense in how someone is just running with what they're told)

https://twitter.com/tom_brunt/status/745598173285060608

Edited by Tryhard

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I hope they are kidding too. Well, there are no statistics about who exactly searched it on Google.

Then again have you seen the man who voted Leave because he thought Remain would win.

I voted to remain. I was shocked this morning, and quite disappointed. I knew it was a possibility that Leave would win. As some people have mentioned, both campaigns have been quite shambles and misinformation has been flying around. The biggest issues raised in the referendum were immigration and sovereignty and the campaign appealed to a majority of people's nationalism. But I know not everyone voted Leave for those reasons. But surely it was a lot of them.

Nearly everyone I know voted Remain so my social media feed has been quite sad. Besides the plummeting market in the news I haven't felt any effects close to me yet... But who knows what will happen next? (Not Nigel Farage. To be fair this is unprecedented so of course no one knows what will happen.) But yes it irks me that in all this campaigning, nobody came up with some plans about what to do in the event of an exit! Well ok they are beginning negotiations now.

Though I voted Remain I was still uncertain because I admit I know little about EU. Maybe some good will come out of Leaving, but I didn't know so I voted Remain to be safe. What I am worried about now is how divided the UK has become, and how people are angry at the results and still shouting at each other (on social media). People are hating each other, looking down on the "stupid". Or this pollis giving rise to Young vs Old! I really don't want to blame anyone, this is the fault of majority rule.

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WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT I DON'T EVEN

At this point, I can't really say too much about this since I'm not from the UK and I didn't even know you guys were voting on this until last night, when the votes were being counted. All I can do is support Shin. But my issue right now is, why the fuck did people not do research before they voted to leave why was there no exit plan why were people so wholly unprepared for this what the fuck

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Hey Rehab, haven't seen you in a while man.

As for no exit plan, it's because it's a campaign that's filled with more emotion over careful planning, and it's a rather unprecedented course of action like NTG said. It happens, though, and we'll see where it leads.

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I can't see many cons against GB leaving the EU. More freedom to legislate about things of your own country instead of being forced to adhere to external pressures and impositions through treaties from people who have no idea about your country's needs is always good, and it seems the GB can stand on its own even without being a part of the EU (the current low price of the pound is not an evidence of the contrary. Of course its currency is going to take a hit on turbulent times, such a thing is to be expected, that doesn't mean those effects are going to be long term).

The only part of the pro-Brexit argument that I disagree is with the "immigrants are stealing my jobs" part, as far as I've read. I've watched an interview about it where a few british citizens claim what I just quoted and then a landlord complains that he's going to lose many workers if anti-immigrants policies are adopted and they have to leave. If the british workforce is by itself not enough to sustain business as it is, there is even less reason to blame immigrants.

Also, if one wants to disregard the humanitarian aspect of inclusive policies toward immigrants, we can look at the economic aspect and how they make the labor area more competitive, increasing the quality of the workforce because it generates more offer than demand. A more diverse and competitive workforce is always good, protectionist measures limiting competition always lower the quality of a given service.

It's ridiculous when someone blames others because they're not competent enough to get a job and fend for themselves. There's no such a thing as "stealing" jobs. If someone took "your" place, it is usually because they're better at it than you. It becomes your fault, not theirs.

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