Brexit

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

https://archive.is/GmRqZ

this sounds related to the brexit thing, i can not believed the title of this,like yeah that'll go over well with the common people.

Edited June 29, 2016 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[Duff Ostrich]

He's only writing for those who already agree with him, and who want to see their sense of moral and intellectual superiority continually reaffirmed. Why acknowledge the unwashed masses as equals when you can continually talk down to them? The left loves the poor when they vote as instructed, but otherwise they're a threat to the intended world order.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Duff Ostrich

[Phoenix Wright]

That the establishment elites, the media and the liberal left (an increasingly minor set of distinctions)

fucking christ dude

[blah the Prussian]

https://archive.is/GmRqZ

this sounds related to the brexit thing, i can not believed the title of this,like yeah that'll go over well with the common people.

Well that's just about the most Ostrich in the sand (no offense) thing I've ever read. The elites, quite frankly, created this monster, with their inaction, with doing nothing as jobs were outsourced, with both parties abandoning the working classes. And the Democrats are still saying Trump is the Republican's Gauls and the Republicans are still saying Trump is the Democrat's fault. Niether of them have considered doing anything to actually address WHY Trump has risen. The same applies to the British establishment. All I know is that democracy in general has devolved into mob rule exactly as Bismarck said it would.

[Excellen Browning]

The American people would never accept an equivalent of the EU

Nitpicking perhaps, but the EU is very similar to the US federal government.

[Tryhard]

You've failed to convince me how a EU parliamentarian that has spent the latter part of his professional career attempting to get his nation to leave that union doesn't understand what it does. It's a very silly thing to say.

What is it with the Remain folks constantly asserting that to not support the EU is to not understand it? I have a working understanding of what the EU does and have since long before Mr. Cameron promised to have a referendum on it. More importantly however is that it is not a difficult thing to understand. The American people would never accept an equivalent of the EU, and the people of the United Kingdom were right to want out even if by a small majority.

He has such a hate boner for the EU that it is impossible to say that he will give you an unbiased and not a distorted view of the EU.

It's because you've been wrong about the sovereignty and immigration in relation to the EU. It's not really something I'm surprised about, as quite a few people have been wrong about this, a lot have cited it as their reason for voting leave.

Here's a video from a distinguished Professor of European Law, Michael Dougan. While this whole video is very good, specifically the part about EU sovereignty that starts at 3:20. However, I do suggest watching the entire video.

Westminster has always been ones holding control over EU law in the UK.

For immigration, it's highly likely that the UK is going to want to join the EU single market even if they are leaving their parliament, which means that they will be able to remove trade barriers with the rest of the EU countries. To not use the EU single market would be extremely bad for the UK economy, so by all regards should happen. What this means, however, is that by all accounts they should have to agree to 'freedom of movement', which still allows for travel between EU countries. They will also need to hold to current EU trade regulations anyway, so it would change nothing in that regard.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36659900

The UK was already not part of the Schengen Area, and would have to agree to be part of it should it ever rejoin the EU, so it was actually in a very privileged position in regards to immigration compared to every other EU country. Campaigning like this is absolutely false. After the decision actually went through, Brexit leaders or campaigners have now been backtracking on immigration and NHS spending in particular, showing that leaving the EU has not and will not solve any fabricated "migrant crisis" or "mass unchecked immigration".

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/leave-campaign-rows-back-key-pledges-immigration-nhs-spending

Of course, since some people were under the impression that this vote by itself would curb immigration, it may indeed 'disappoint' them at the very least.

That the establishment elites, the media and the liberal left (an increasingly minor set of distinctions) have reacted with such vitriol is the best indication I've seen that this needed to happen.

The media is generally bad and has advocated both positions. Brexit campaigners are absolutely examples of the establishment elite. I thought you said there was no way I could say this is a mainly a right-wing decision, so why are you saying liberal left are reacting with vitriol now?

Edit: As an extension to the above video, here's the same person expanding on the idea of the Leave campaign's dishonesty.

As for the above article referring to the elite, it's got a horrible title and tone, but it is correct that it is blatant that both the Conservative and Labour parties require reformation. Right now both are fragmented because for Labour people want rid of Corbyn while Conservatives have no idea who their leader should be.

Anyway, as for some news today, Boris Johnson has ruled himself out of the race for Tory leadership.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36672591

Edited July 1, 2016 by Tryhard

[Life]

What an amazingly ridiculous pair of statements. The man is on the European parliament, so I'd like to think he knows a thing or two about what they do. And clearly Farage, UKIP and the Leave campaign are not responsible for the actions of a murderer with severe psychological problems. *They* won the fight without a single shot, and indeed the death of Mrs. Cox probably persuaded more people to vote Remain than otherwise.

1) The EU is not a government entity that rules all of Europe with an iron fist and has never claimed to be. It is essentially a trade union between European countries with a few government powers. Others have also mentioned this but not that clearly.

Of course there's more to the EU than that but this is the most barebones explaination of the EU possible. It's like NATO but with a consolidated currency (which the UK never consented to anyway) and a couple other gimmicks.

So Farage claiming that GB has "achieved independence" is both asinine and wrong. Which shows that he doesn't know what he's talking about.

2) The murderer claimed in open court that his name was "death to traitors" and Jo Cox was against leaving the EU. I'm not saying that Farage organized a hit but claiming that his revolution was bloodless is wrong since her murder was politically motivated.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Pharoahe Monch

[Moblin Major General]

2) The murderer claimed in open court that his name was "death to traitors" and Jo Cox was against leaving the EU. I'm not saying that Farage organized a hit but claiming that his revolution was bloodless is wrong since her murder was politically motivated.

There's a difference between one politically motivated killing and a coup. How many people died in the Glorious Revolution? Certainly more than 1 or even a few.

[Phoenix Wright]

All I know is that democracy in general has devolved into mob rule exactly as Bismarck said it would.

lol, has it?

[Excellen Browning]

No it hasnt and as long as every democracy ever have been, and most likely will keep on being representative democracies, mob rule has not happened and will not happen.

[blah the Prussian]

No it hasnt and as long as every democracy ever have been, and most likely will keep on being representative democracies, mob rule has not happened and will not happen.

Really? I think it certainly happened in Revolutionary France, for one.

[Excellen Browning]

If you mean lynch mobs killing people left and right, sure. But which revolutionary France are you talking about?

[blah the Prussian]

If you mean lynch mobs killing people left and right, sure. But which revolutionary France are you talking about?

The 1789 one. It checks all the boxes: literal mobs ousting government after government, the law essentially being thrown out the window to appease these mobs, nationalism coming to the fore... etc.

[Moblin Major General]

The 1789 one. It checks all the boxes: literal mobs ousting government after government, the law essentially being thrown out the window to appease these mobs, nationalism coming to the fore... etc.

Not to mention they pissed off every power that was in the known world at that time except for Turkey.

[blah the Prussian]

Not to mention they pissed off every power that was in the known world at that time except for Turkey.

Actually they pissed off the Tirks so much the Turks allied with RUSSIA to fuck over the French.

[Phoenix Wright]

Trump is such an imbecile and yet now he's poised to be the Republican nominee. He's smarter than anyone has given him credit for, and the arrogance of his opponents is one of factors behind his success. Either Trump or his advisors, and probably both, have an intimate understanding with the American political process and have probably been maneuvering towards this contest since 2012 or 2013. You can bet the Democrats are taking him very seriously now, especially considering the titanic amount of criminality and negligence associated with their own presumptive nominee.

You've failed to convince me how a EU parliamentarian that has spent the latter part of his professional career attempting to get his nation to leave that union doesn't understand what it does. It's a very silly thing to say.

What is it with the Remain folks constantly asserting that to not support the EU is to not understand it? I have a working understanding of what the EU does and have since long before Mr. Cameron promised to have a referendum on it. More importantly however is that it is not a difficult thing to understand. The American people would never accept an equivalent of the EU, and the people of the United Kingdom were right to want out even if by a small majority.

even hillary, endearingly referred to as "shillary" by left-leaning and right-leaning persons, is whooping trump.

​

​because those who support leaving clearly don't understand the benefits far outweigh the costs. also, you're wrong, as i would support something like it.

[dondon151]

The American people would never accept an equivalent of the EU,

you're right. no american state would accept as lax of a legal and economic union as the EU. they're sucking so much money from the federal government's teat and reaping the benefits of unrestricted interstate movement that it would be inconceivable to regress to an EU-like state.

Edited July 4, 2016 by dondon151

[Tetragrammaton]

Will you vote for Texit?

[Duff Ostrich]

you're right. no american state would accept as lax of a legal and economic union as the EU. they're sucking so much money from the federal government's teat and reaping the benefits of unrestricted interstate movement that it would be inconceivable to regress to an EU-like state.

The European Union may have been founded with the United States in mind, but the meaningful similarities end there. The United States is one nation built on a collection of driving ideals as codified in our founding documents. The European Union is a grouping of ostensibly sovereign states with distinct histories, cultures, priorities, languages and so on. The European Union is a Frankenstein's monster of (perhaps well intentioned) bureaucratic, anti democratic tyranny; the likes of which even the overbearing U.S. federal government can't hope to emulate.

Will you vote for Texit?

That would make the Republican Party totally electorally irrelevant, so I certainly hope that doesn't happen! As awful as the Republicans are, they're needed to keep the Democrats from becoming even more complacent and corrupt.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Will you vote for Texit?

could i even do that if i don't live in texas but live in Indiana instead?

i'd still rather that not happen.

[dondon151]

The European Union may have been founded with the United States in mind, but the meaningful similarities end there. The United States is one nation built on a collection of driving ideals as codified in our founding documents.

yes and that's why the civil war happened

don't let's pretend that individual states were chomping at the bit to give up individual sovereignty to a federal government. states' rights really used to be a thing at the time of the inception of the USA - that's why the articles of confederation were the first federal governing documents. secession was a legitimate threat in the 18th and 19th centuries, but nowadays we just laugh when texans threaten secession because we know that they'll never do it.

the states united out of a necessity to coordinate trade policies and national defense. if it wasn't for the fact that the US economy was getting fucked sideways and the states couldn't individually do shit to foreign powers, they would've been perfectly content with the articles.

don't give me this idealized bullshit about the principles that our country was founded upon, either. the one principle upon which the USA was definitively founded was not paying taxes to great britain.

Edited July 8, 2016 by dondon151

[Tryhard]

What I find hilarious and rather telling is that Britain's horrendous example of leaving the EU... when they've not even left the EU yet, has already lead to a decline in European anti-EU nationalism. I'm not really that surprised considering what a farce it is.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/08/brexit-causes-resurgence-in-pro-eu-leanings-across-continent?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

So once again, leaving the EU is going to do nothing for Britain, because it will not not grant any 'independence' or 'soverignty', and there will be no change to immigration as the UK government would have to work towards tighter borders and that will not be possible for EU immigrants if they do join the EU single market as free movement of labour is a requirement for it. Remember, since Britain will want to join the single market (even Farage said they would basically have to) they will still need to hold to a lot of EU laws... without having the ability to have any say on them... what was that about 'freedom'? So essentially, all it has done is worsen the economy for who knows how long as £150 billion was released from the Bank of England to try and stabilise the economy. I have not seen one plausible and not easily debunkable argument for the positive effect it will have and with calls for greater austerity already being placed on the British people, this will hurt the poorer British people the most. Even if there was any gain in freedom, which there isn't, I think they would be more concerned about their own livelihood instead of some intangible 'freedom' they have gained that they can't even express.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/austerity-not-immigration-to-blame-for-inequality-underlying-brexit-vote-argues-professor-a7127751.html

Maybe some feel as though it's their own way to express any sort of power as said earlier in the thread, so I'm not really sure I can fault them for that. Dissatisfaction with the current UK establishment I agree with, but this is just not the way to direct it. The hindsight is unfortunately going to be no gain and essentially people shooting their kneecaps in order to say they can survive it, and while I do think that if the UK go ahead with it (Article 50 still isn't invoked yet), while it will not be as catastrophic as some say, it will certainly harm the country and put us in a worse position for absolutely no gain compared if the UK kept on the same path it was on.

Edited July 13, 2016 by Tryhard

[Lord Raven]

That would make the Republican Party totally electorally irrelevant, so I certainly hope that doesn't happen! As awful as the Republicans are, they're needed to keep the Democrats from becoming even more complacent and corrupt.

how are the republicans any less complacent/corrupt than the democrats

i mean they had a pedophile as speaker of the house

or is this some more of that shit you say that really isn't making a point so much as "shitting on everyone who disagrees" and "make america great again"

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

considering the attack that just happen in France, maybe they were right to leave the EU.

but thats for another thread.

[Time the Crestfallen]

considering the attack that just happen in France, maybe they were right to leave the EU.

but thats for another thread.

How do you figure? Even if they're right about mass immigration from the EU, won't they need to accept freedom of movement if they want access to the single market?