Defending the Story of Fates.

[JamesEmblem]

So, I hear a lot of people complaining about the story of all three campaigns for Fates. The same also applies to Awakening. So I thought to myself for a while, and realised that the plot can be barebones, because it's not where the bulk of the story lies. Note that plot and story are separate things here. Fire Emblem games more recently have been making more of a shift in terms of story telling, and whilst a game like 7 might develop everything using the plot and have supports be less important, Awakening and Fates do the reverse.

Say what you will about the quality of writing in the supports (personally I don't see anything wrong), but the development of characters is now done through supports, and to an extent we learn more about the world.

An example would be in Awakening where we find out the reasoning behind all of the children characters personalities and why they are how they are, but we also find out more about the future where they come from too, we find out how the parents die, and I think this kind of narrative suits a FE game.

When you go back to look at a game like FE7, you'll find that the plot has just as much depth as Awakening or Fates, but the difference is how they develop that world and those characters. Heck, I'd go as far as saying that FE7 isn't as good as Fates, but that's because Fates has three stories that play off of one another, which is why I like it so much.

[Abvora]

I personally like the plot of Fates--I think it could have been done better, but I still enjoy what we got--and I applaud you for doing the same and for having the courage to say you like it here. Because on the Internet no one's allowed to like it.

[NekoKnight]

Unless you can make a case for a riveting story about the world of Fates told through supports, your argument lacks substance. Yes, supports do help flesh out characters and the world, but this isn't something that started with Awakening or Fates.

I will give credit where it's due. SOME supports make characters far more appealing than their main story involvement, and others do make attempts at world building (ex Nohr's court affairs, revealed in Camilla x Niles). I'd disagree that they are enough to fill the void that is the plot, however.

[MCProductions]

I personally like the plot of Fates--I think it could have been done better, but I still enjoy what we got--and I applaud you for doing the same and for having the courage to say you like it here. Because on the Internet no one's allowed to like it.

This basically, I could write a megaton essay on what they did wrong, but I will always end it with it's nowhere near as bad as the internet would have you believe.

[blah the Prussian]

I personally like the plot of Fates--I think it could have been done better, but I still enjoy what we got--and I applaud you for doing the same and for having the courage to say you like it here. Because on the Internet no one's allowed to like it.

You are absolutely correct. Serenes Police, open up! You're under arrest on charges of liking Fate's story! You have the right to an attorney, the right to remain silent, and anything you say can and will be used against you!

Oh wait. That's not what happens. Look, minority opinions, generally, are minority for a reason. In this case, the reason that the story of Fates, especially Conquest, is garbage.

[Thane]

I personally like the plot of Fates--I think it could have been done better, but I still enjoy what we got--and I applaud you for doing the same and for having the courage to say you like it here. Because on the Internet no one's allowed to like it.

This is an intellectually dishonest claim; you have spoken out in defense of Fates many times on this site, and at worst - assuming someone hasn't sent you a nasty message or something to your inbox - is to disagree with you, responding to your argument with one of their own. People are free to enjoy whatever they like, it's just that a lot of people really can't stomach Fates' story.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Thane

[Nihilon]

Honestly, I enjoyed the plot of Fates, if only because not liking it would make me feel like I wasted my money. Always look on the bright side of life and all that!

Yeah, it could've been a lot better. It could have also been worse...

[Sunwoo]

My problem with the story of Fates (and Awakening) can be summed up simply: it's become way too character-focused, way too protagonist-centered morality based.

I'm not going to say that the previous FE games' stories were masterpieces. They had their flaws and FE7 wasn't very good once you get past the nostalgia. But I liked the explicit world building that was done out of the supports. I liked how the politics were a lot more complex than whatever Awakening and Fates gives us, that it was a lot more gray than just "good nation vs. evil nation". I liked that the protagonists weren't just excused for things that they did "wrong", and had the chance to learn in their journey.

Even with supports, we just don't know a whole lot about the world of Awakening and Fates. For crying out loud, the continent in which Fates takes place doesn't even have a proper name, and was it even confirmed that the continent that Ylisse and Plegia exist on is even called Ylisse? Fates has no background lore, and what little we get is all on the Valla Kingdom shit and Anankos, and nothing really on Hoshido and Nohr itself. We don't know a lot about the two main countries itself (and Hoshido as a country gets less world building than Nohr), and all of the principalities that exist may as well not exist or just be cities in Nohr and Hoshido for how much attention they get.

The moral quandaries and struggles from previous FEs exist even less because the protagonists don't care about the people. They only care about whatever they can see in front of them. Compare Elincia willing to sacrifice the woman who was basically her sister for the good of her country, to Chrom not wanting to let go of Robin even if it meant saving the world, or Marx caring more about his obviously evul father than his own damn country, or Kamui thinking that their happiness is what's at stake when invading Hoshido rather than … well, Hoshido. When you introduce difficult decisions like that, the plot doesn't get better when you make it a simple choice. These are rulers, people who control the fate of an entire country (maybe the world) and anyone who lives there. Rulers who are weak and selfish should be called out, not praised for protagonist-centered choices.

tl;dr The supports aren't enough to get into backstory as the older games did. The plot is more black-and-white and protagonist centered than having actual thought and growth. And the concept of war is treated more like a game than something serious that affects the countries involved and around it to dramatic degrees. While Fates isn't the worst story I've ever read or come across, it isn't really "good". It isn't the step up from Awakening that IS was raving about and promised us.

[CrimsonRaven]

Everyone jumps on the hate train really quickly on this forum. Especially those that have played older games. So it probably looks as though the vast majority hate this or that mechanic but there are plenty of people who do like the plot and just simply enjoy the series as a whole. There are hardcore players and there are casual players, it's fairly obvious who makes the most noise on this forum between the two.

But seriously different strokes for different blokes, tit for tat.

[JamesEmblem]

Unless you can make a case for a riveting story about the world of Fates told through supports, your argument lacks substance. Yes, supports do help flesh out characters and the world, but this isn't something that started with Awakening or Fates.

I never said Awakening or Fates started it, just that they made it a focus. I honestly think FE has always been about the characters, and the plot is just a means of presenting them, now more so than ever. I think the characters in Fates are the most interesting, at least out of the FE games I've played (being 7, 8, 11, 13 and 14), due no in small part to the amount of development. Story is a hell of a lot more than plot, something which I've had drilled into me with books like Lord of the Flies (mind you, I didn't enjoy LotF, just is a good example).

[JamesEmblem]

My problem with the story of Fates (and Awakening) can be summed up simply: it's become way too character-focused, way too protagonist-centered morality based.

The moral quandaries and struggles from previous FEs exist even less because the protagonists don't care about the people. They only care about whatever they can see in front of them. Compare Elincia willing to sacrifice the woman who was basically her sister for the good of her country, to Chrom not wanting to let go of Robin even if it meant saving the world, or Marx caring more about his obviously evul father than his own damn country, or Kamui thinking that their happiness is what's at stake when invading Hoshido rather than … well, Hoshido. When you introduce difficult decisions like that, the plot doesn't get better when you make it a simple choice. These are rulers, people who control the fate of an entire country (maybe the world) and anyone who lives there. Rulers who are weak and selfish should be called out, not praised for protagonist-centered choices.

This I think, is actually pretty accurate to how historically, real rulers have been portrayed as heroes, despite being selfish assholes. It's true that there are times where the game overlooks poor decisions made by the rulers, and it works. It raises discussion, heck, look how polarising the opinions are on Chrom. Despite him being a lovable guy, he isn't a good ruler, which I'd argue is why they give you the choice at the end of Awakening. Again, not saying that Fates is perfect, but it's far from bad. It is my favourite game, but mostly for gameplay reasons.

[NekoKnight]

I never said Awakening or Fates started it, just that they made it a focus. I honestly think FE has always been about the characters, and the plot is just a means of presenting them, now more so than ever. I think the characters in Fates are the most interesting, at least out of the FE games I've played (being 7, 8, 11, 13 and 14), due no in small part to the amount of development. Story is a hell of a lot more than plot, something which I've had drilled into me with books like Lord of the Flies (mind you, I didn't enjoy LotF, just is a good example).

I mean, I guess you can say it's a "focus", in that the plot isn't well developed, but I don't think it was intentional for the plot to be merely a vehicle for presenting the characters. I can't read the writers' minds, but the fact they made 3 games (with an additional story DLC) makes me think that yes, they did want you to appreciate the plot. A game like Shadow of the Colossus has intentional minimalism. Fates is an example of ambition outstripping talent.

I won't fault you for liking characters, that's subjective, but if you want to make an argument about the story having value, you need specific examples of their contribution. What story is being told through supports?

[CrimsonRaven]

My problem with the story of Fates (and Awakening) can be summed up simply: it's become way too character-focused, way too protagonist-centered morality based.

The moral quandaries and struggles from previous FEs exist even less because the protagonists don't care about the people. They only care about whatever they can see in front of them. Compare Elincia willing to sacrifice the woman who was basically her sister for the good of her country, to Chrom not wanting to let go of Robin even if it meant saving the world, or Marx caring more about his obviously evul father than his own damn country, or Kamui thinking that their happiness is what's at stake when invading Hoshido rather than … well, Hoshido. When you introduce difficult decisions like that, the plot doesn't get better when you make it a simple choice. These are rulers, people who control the fate of an entire country (maybe the world) and anyone who lives there. Rulers who are weak and selfish should be called out, not praised for protagonist-centered choices.

tl;dr The supports aren't enough to get into backstory as the older games did. The plot is more black-and-white and protagonist centered than having actual thought and growth. And the concept of war is treated more like a game than something serious that affects the countries involved and around it to dramatic degrees. While Fates isn't the worst story I've ever read or come across, it isn't really "good". It isn't the step up from Awakening that IS was raving about and promised us.

I'd have to disagree with them not caring about people, in conquest Kamui didn't want to kill people especially their siblings, I don't think they really mentioned their happiness or it was factored in at all(unless I missed it). Xander is like the Camus archetype, despite what his heart says he is duty bound being crown prince and all that. It's also mentioned that in order to stay sane that the nohr siblings would indirectly disobey their fathers order thus saving lives (Rinkah, Kaze). Conquest does have a few hints on morality if you dig deep enough. Not much for Hoshido however, the plot is really straightforward. Could the plots and characters have been written better for both? Hell yes but it is what it is

I 100% agree with you on the games being too black and white though. It's becoming a bit dull for me in all honesty.

Edited June 24, 2016 by CrimsonRaven

[Thane]

Again, not saying that Fates is perfect, but it's far from bad. It is my favourite game, but mostly for gameplay reasons.

I'm curious now that you've said this; could you give me a few concrete reasons of what you liked so much in Fates' story? Saying that you like the characters and the conversations is one thing, but to pretend it somehow justifies, outweighs or even fixes the main story is another.

I'd have to disagree with them not caring about people, in conquest Kamui didn't want to kill people especially their siblings, I don't think they really mentioned their happiness or it was factored in at all(unless I missed it). Xander is like the Camus archetype, despite what his heart says he is duty bound being crown prince and all that. It's also mentioned that in order to stay sane that the nohr siblings would indirectly disobey their fathers order thus saving lives (Rinkah, Kaze). Conquest does have a few hints on morality if you dig deep enough. Not much for Hoshido however, the plot is really straightforward

Ah great, now I'm triggered.

Corrin not wanting to kill people is in one way one of the many problems with Conquest. The kid's father, the ruler of the nation, tries killing them twice before the prologue, and is so obviously evil and against everything Corrin believes in and even goes to war against an innocent nation for no real reason; hell Xander even says as much since his justification is "it's time to show Hoshido our might".

Yet in spite of all that, and also finding out about Garon murdering (who he at that time thought) was his real father, Corrin goes back to Nohr, serving their father's every whim and doesn't even think about murdering him until they conveniently find out he's a monster, which somehow makes all his actions worse.

Up until that point, Corrin had willfully served the murder of his father and the aggressor in a war without any plan. If the game had had the guts to paint Corrin in a negative light and just straight up said that they returned for selfish reasons since they couldn't bear the thought of abandoning their friends and foster family, who could've been held hostage by Garon, it would've been a different story. Couple that with proper motivations for Nohr's attack and a few flaws for Hoshido and suddenly Conquest improves considerably.

However, that's not what we got. What we have now is Corrin floundering about for a while before accepting the stupidest plan ever without even considering another alternative - one that involves a LOT of death. So they go against their very nature, commit horrible acts, and at the end of the day it's portrayed as a positive thing. Instead of talking with their siblings, including the Hoshidan ones in chapter 18 or 19, they make cheap jokes and only consider their own happiness, saying that they want their families to be able to sit down one day and laugh - in the middle of a war in which they fight on the objectively wrong side.

As for Xander, he's without a doubt the weakest character in any Fire Emblem game - even Hetzel had the balls to admit he was wrong; Xander only cares about being able to sleep at night. He goes back on his original plan to end the war with as few deaths as possible which he used to convince Corrin to return to Nohr when Zora offers to do the dirty work for him and end the war with only the death of four. Xander chooses to prolong the war and include a lot more death to keep his supposed honor intact - then he holds speeches about justice not existing.

Fuck Xander.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Thane

[Sunwoo]

This I think, is actually pretty accurate to how historically, real rulers have been portrayed as heroes, despite being selfish assholes. It's true that there are times where the game overlooks poor decisions made by the rulers, and it works. It raises discussion, heck, look how polarising the opinions are on Chrom. Despite him being a lovable guy, he isn't a good ruler, which I'd argue is why they give you the choice at the end of Awakening. Again, not saying that Fates is perfect, but it's far from bad. It is my favourite game, but mostly for gameplay reasons.

But here's the thing: FE has never been, and probably never will be, close to historical. The previous games, while still not very good, made for more complex stories because you were able to see the game treat characters in a more complex way. And it's not like there isn't discussion over these characters and their actions. I've seen debates on Zephiel and his reasons for wanting to destroy the world in FE6. I've heard discussions on Micaiah's actions and what kind of person they make her. A lot of the previous characters are still polarizing enough even though the game doesn't overlook their actions. You just don't see it as much because FE was a smaller fanbase back then, and because most people want to talk about the new stuff rather than the old, and a lot of the old discussion happened back then.

I'm a lot more easily frustrated by FE13 and FE14 acting like Emmeryn and Chrom and Marx and Kamui and Hinoka are in the right for their short-sightedness. If the plot weren't so insistent on shoving it down my throat that I should think these guys were heroes, I'd be fine. The problem is that the plot wants me to think they're heroes when they're so not.

I'd have to disagree with them not caring about people, in conquest Kamui didn't want to kill people especially their siblings, I don't think they really mentioned their happiness or it was factored in at all(unless I missed it). Xander is like the Camus archetype, despite what his heart says he is duty bound being crown prince and all that. It's also mentioned that in order to stay sane that the nohr siblings would indirectly disobey their fathers order thus saving lives (Rinkah, Kaze). Conquest does have a few hints on morality if you dig deep enough. Not much for Hoshido however, the plot is really straightforward. Could the plots and characters have been written better for both? Hell yes but it is what it is

Well, here's the thing about Conquest!Corrin for me. Technically, they do care about saving lives? But I have a big problem with how self-centered they are with regard to it. I mean, the people of Hoshido are the ones who are going to suffer if they're being invaded, but Corrin doesn't care about them. They go, "my happiness is a small price to pay for liberating Hoshido from Garon" or "the Hoshidans will never understand why I'm doing this", and they have the nerve to tell Hinoka that they want to be siblings again and have the family whole and laugh together, even while knowing that in the previous chapter Takumi threw himself off a wall and might be dead.

If Corrin didn't get the forgiveness of his sisters and was rightfully viewed as a villain at the end of Conquest by the Hoshidans, I'd be fine with it. But the tone of the epilogue is that Hinoka forgives them for everything, and that even if they aren't popular with the Hoshidan people this makes Corrin more of a "martyr" than rightfully hated. It's not like Birthright!Corrin went around slaughtering all Nohr soldiers either, but for some reason the game makes a bigger deal out of Conquest!Corrin getting through battles sparing every enemy soldier (which is ridiculous), while Birthright!Corrin just doing what other FE lords have done with regards to battle is just treated in a non-special way.

[JamesEmblem]

I'm curious now that you've said this; could you give me a few concrete reasons of what you liked so much in Fates' story? Saying that you like the characters and the conversations is one thing, but to pretend it somehow justifies, outweighs or even fixes the main story is another.

I think that all three campaigns are meant to be enjoyed as one. You learn to like each character in one campaign, making the other campaign more interesting, whilst Revelation allows you to appreciate them all being brought together. The ways the different paths diverge from one another is pretty cool, though I've yet to finish Conquest and Revelations (I get pretty far in before resetting for one stupid reason or another). I like how the story plays with the tropes of black and white or good and evil, to trick you into having preconceived notions about one kingdom or the other, when in reality, there isn't a whole lot between them.

[kcirrot]

I think that all three campaigns are meant to be enjoyed as one. You learn to like each character in one campaign, making the other campaign more interesting, whilst Revelation allows you to appreciate them all being brought together. The ways the different paths diverge from one another is pretty cool, though I've yet to finish Conquest and Revelations (I get pretty far in before resetting for one stupid reason or another). I like how the story plays with the tropes of black and white or good and evil, to trick you into having preconceived notions about one kingdom or the other, when in reality, there isn't a whole lot between them.

Huh? There's no preconceived notions at play here. Nohr is the aggressor and wrong, Hoshido is the innocent and aggrieved party. Period. Full stop. There is absolutely NO moral justification for what you're doing in Conquest. The story would have been better to have played Corrin as a villain protagonist. I don't mind Birthright and Revelation because at least it doesn't try to push some false equivalency between Nohr and Hoshido.

Whoever said Fuck Xander is right. Even more than Corrin, Xander could have made things right. But he continues with that duty BS.

I do agree that the stories are meant to be considered part of one whole, even though their existence is incompatible with each other. Which is why it would have been better to create a much longer more interesting game that led to the same result that occurs in Revelations. You could have made the kids make sense, and created an epic story that spanned 20 years or so. Instead in their money grab to sell three games they come up with this nonsense. The gameplay, which is fantastic, is the saving grace of this game.

[CrimsonRaven]

Well, here's the thing about Conquest!Corrin for me. Technically, they do care about saving lives? But I have a big problem with how self-centered they are with regard to it. I mean, the people of Hoshido are the ones who are going to suffer if they're being invaded, but Corrin doesn't care about them. They go, "my happiness is a small price to pay for liberating Hoshido from Garon" or "the Hoshidans will never understand why I'm doing this", and they have the nerve to tell Hinoka that they want to be siblings again and have the family whole and laugh together, even while knowing that in the previous chapter Takumi threw himself off a wall and might be dead.

If Corrin didn't get the forgiveness of his sisters and was rightfully viewed as a villain at the end of Conquest by the Hoshidans, I'd be fine with it. But the tone of the epilogue is that Hinoka forgives them for everything, and that even if they aren't popular with the Hoshidan people this makes Corrin more of a "martyr" than rightfully hated. It's not like Birthright!Corrin went around slaughtering all Nohr soldiers either, but for some reason the game makes a bigger deal out of Conquest!Corrin getting through battles sparing every enemy soldier (which is ridiculous), while Birthright!Corrin just doing what other FE lords have done with regards to battle is just treated in a non-special way.

I get what you're saying, but looking at it practically, someone cant possibly care about every single person in a war including their enemies. From a video game standpoint those people are not important enough, granted previous games did do it better. Personally, C!Kamui came off as whiny too me which is why I don't see them being self centered they were always complaining about killing people/fathers orders. I guess in a way that can be considered selfless which is where our opinions differ.

Seriously though, Hinoka completely forgiving Kamui, or the remaining siblings after BR for that matter makes no sense. Kamui should definitely be viewed as a villain in that regard. Yeah they couldn't save every one but they at least deserve a gold star for trying. Conquest gets a lot of flak because it tried to do something different and didn't do it too well while Birthright is just your standard FE game.

[warchiefwilliams]

Liking the story of Fates?

Calm down. Just a joke.

In all seriousness, there are many, MANY things wrong with the story, but let's focus on one for a bit, shall we? As many have brought up both here and in the past, one of Fates (and for that matter, Awakening's) biggest flaws, besides the mess of a plot that is conquest, is the lack of world building. We know next to nothing about how all the different duchies, principalities, empires and city-states interact with each other and how that pushes the plot forward. I.E: What role does Izumo serve in relation to Hoshido? They clearly share many of the cultural mores with Hoshido, but we get nothing. Why does the Ice Clan and Cheve want to rebell against Nohr? We have an idea of the atrocities committed against the Ice Clan (Flora and Felicia as political prisoners) but what happened to Cheve? We know next to nothing. And some character's entire arc relies on non-existent world building. What atrocity did Nohr commit that convinced Scarlet to lead a rebellion against them?

Whoever said Fuck Xander is right. Even more than Corrin, Xander could have made things right. But he continues with that duty BS.

I do agree that the stories are meant to be considered part of one whole, even though their existence is incompatible with each other. Which is why it would have been better to create a much longer more interesting game that led to the same result that occurs in Revelations. You could have made the kids make sense, and created an epic story that spanned 20 years or so. Instead in their money grab to sell three games they come up with this nonsense. The gameplay, which is fantastic, is the saving grace of this game.

1. I third that opinion on Xander. I want to like the guy, but his choices... I swear.

2. To be honest, I kinda was hoping for that. Assuming IS actually pays attentions to the these forums, hopefully they will. Or they will think that we just want more fan-service and double down on that... who knows at this point.

Edited June 24, 2016 by warchiefwilliams

[JamesEmblem]

Huh? There's no preconceived notions at play here. Nohr is the aggressor and wrong, Hoshido is the innocent and aggrieved party. Period. Full stop. There is absolutely NO moral justification for what you're doing in Conquest. The story would have been better to have played Corrin as a villain protagonist. I don't mind Birthright and Revelation because at least it doesn't try to push some false equivalency between Nohr and Hoshido.

Whoever said Fuck Xander is right. Even more than Corrin, Xander could have made things right. But he continues with that duty BS.

I do agree that the stories are meant to be considered part of one whole, even though their existence is incompatible with each other. Which is why it would have been better to create a much longer more interesting game that led to the same result that occurs in Revelations. You could have made the kids make sense, and created an epic story that spanned 20 years or so. Instead in their money grab to sell three games they come up with this nonsense. The gameplay, which is fantastic, is the saving grace of this game.

Too each their own, the way I see it, the people of Nohr are fine, just those in charge are fucked up. I'll still enjoy the story, but you don't have to. Subjectivity exists for a reason.

[Quintessence]

One thing is to enjoy a game, being flawed or not, and another one is praising it based on "I like it".

[Etrurian emperor]

I don't think the story of Fates is this big train wreck people claim it is but you can't really get around the fact that missed opportunities and compromises for the sake of fanservice are there at every corner of the Fates stories. That does negatively affect the story, how can it not.

Its why I won't spend much time outright defending Fates story. While I have a milder view on Fates story I can easily see the arguments of those who hate the story and I do agree with most of those points.

[Thane]

I think that all three campaigns are meant to be enjoyed as one. You learn to like each character in one campaign, making the other campaign more interesting, whilst Revelation allows you to appreciate them all being brought together. The ways the different paths diverge from one another is pretty cool, though I've yet to finish Conquest and Revelations (I get pretty far in before resetting for one stupid reason or another). I like how the story plays with the tropes of black and white or good and evil, to trick you into having preconceived notions about one kingdom or the other, when in reality, there isn't a whole lot between them.

If they're meant to be enjoyed as one, how come they contradict each other and one is right and the other two wrong? Also, certain characters like Xander are idiots in all paths - in Birthright he kills his little sister and then himself, ignoring her last, desperate plea, while he's a straight up villain in Conquest and needs to hear his obviously evil father hold an evil monologue before he joins up with the good guys - and he's still not convinced immedately.

How do you justify the Nohr invasion, then? That's black and white; Nohr is the aggressor attacking an innocent, peaceful nation. If there are any other circumstances regarding it, we're not told about it.

I was also asking you for concrete things; you mentioned support conversations expanding the world and things like that, and I want to know what exactly you think is so good that it made you create a thread about it.

Whoever said Fuck Xander is right.

You're too kind. I take any and all credit for the fuck Xander movement, and his popularity confuses me as much as Camilla's.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Thane

[Sunwoo]

I get what you're saying, but looking at it practically, someone cant possibly care about every single person in a war including their enemies. From a video game standpoint those people are not important enough, granted previous games did do it better. Personally, C!Kamui came off as whiny too me which is why I don't see them being self centered they were always complaining about killing people/fathers orders. I guess in a way that can be considered selfless which is where our opinions differ.

Seriously though, Hinoka completely forgiving Kamui, or the remaining siblings after BR for that matter makes no sense. Kamui should definitely be viewed as a villain in that regard. Yeah they couldn't save every one but they at least deserve a gold star for trying. Conquest gets a lot of flak because it tried to do something different and didn't do it too well while Birthright is just your standard FE game.

Again, I'm more upset of the game's portrayal of the characters and expecting me to believe they're heroes than anything else. I'd have liked it if Conquest!Kamui legitimately did want to help the people of Hoshido but did it in a way that wrecked them more than helped them, and Kamui was called out on their stupid OR they learn the harsh reality of war and that they can't save anyone. I do not want them hailed like a hero by the game and pretending that they made no mistakes or that it's excusable because they only had the best intents in mind or something. And that's what I mean by protagonist-centered. The game is so obsessed with making you, the MU, seem flawless and heroic that they'll bend over backwards ridiculously to the point where it makes no sense and you make characters who were weak-willed villains and/or antagonists in the previous game into heroes. I mean, what is Xander but a younger and playable Hetzel (RD)?

I don't think they deserve a gold star for trying to save everyone. I think they deserved a reality check that this is war, you cannot save everyone and you need to make your decisions wisely and either live with what you chose, or if you really don't like it then get out of making that choice. The Hoshidan siblings minus Takumi seemed perfectly willing to take Kamui back even after they betrayed Hoshido in Conquest.

The situation that Conquest!Kamui is in kind of feels like the current Brexit situation: emotional, and not at all well-thought out.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Sunwoo

[BrightBow]

I think that all three campaigns are meant to be enjoyed as one. You learn to like each character in one campaign, making the other campaign more interesting, whilst Revelation allows you to appreciate them all being brought together. The ways the different paths diverge from one another is pretty cool, though I've yet to finish Conquest and Revelations (I get pretty far in before resetting for one stupid reason or another). I like how the story plays with the tropes of black and white or good and evil, to trick you into having preconceived notions about one kingdom or the other, when in reality, there isn't a whole lot between them.

Corrin claims this war is grey early on but there is nothing to back up that perspective. This black and white conflict doesn't become grey just because the protagonist sides with the bad guys. Nohr murdered Hoshido's king during a supposed peace conference. They send undead into Hoshido to attack the population. They assassinated their queen using the protagonist as an unknowing suicide bomber. Meanwhile, the Hoshidians were literally living inside a bubble.

Garon has absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever and he has no noble motives either. He is nothing but a cartonish moustache twirler, to the point where he even threatens the life of his own kids. There is no moral ambiguity about helping this guy to subdue his victims, knowing that he will use that power to kill them. It's the evil to do, period. It might be understandable that one would submit to such a tyrant but it's not noble or heroic. It's not even smart or pragmatic, considering that this is a guy who is so laughably evil that he will attack his own invasion force. You are not even safe from him if you are on his side.

Edited June 24, 2016 by BrightBow