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Defending the Story of Fates.

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I think it's a bit too presumptious to think everyone in Nohr is like. After all, say you are a Nohrian soldier. Your king is a tyrant making peace talks impossible(though I don't remembered if he acted like such in public), your family is starving, and you're told to invade a country with bountiful resources, resources that could feed your family. What would you do? Not invade the country that has done nothing wrong, resulting in your family possibly starving to death, or invade an innocent country to save your family. Alternatively you could try to overthrow the king and try to establish trade with other countries, but what does Nohr have to trade with? Granted with Ryouma as king of Hoshido, trade is likely to happen, though there could be tension as Hoshidians might not be happy with just giving supplies away to a country that was about to invade them.

In the end, the Nohrians are in a pretty tough position.

No offense, but this is equally presumptuous about the character motivations. The food shortage and lack of resources in general is mentioned maybe once, and not even in Conquest. Out of the playable Nohrian characters, we never reallylearn how they feel about the war. As far as we can tell they're all supporting the war out of loyalty to their master and nationalism (EVERYONE IS A CAMUS, even the Awakening Trio). Arthur's whole shtick is JUSTICE but if he ever comments on a just reason for invading Hoshido, I must have missed it.

We can speculate and make head canons about character motivations but that's all it is. Guesswork, loosely supported by the writing.

Edited by NekoKnight

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No offense, but this is equally presumptuous about the character motivations. The food shortage and lack of resources in general is mentioned maybe once, and not even in Conquest. Out of the playable Nohrian characters, we never reallylearn how they feel about the war. As far as we can tell they're all supporting the war out of loyalty to their master and nationalism (EVERYONE IS A CAMUS, even the Awakening Trio). Arthur's whole shtick is JUSTICE but if he ever comments on a just reason for invading Hoshido, I must have missed it.

We can speculate and make head canons about character motivations but that's all it is. Guesswork, loosely supported by the writing.

To add to Neko's point the only real citizens to speak off fighting in the war who join you not as royal retainers are Charlotte and Benny. Charlotte wants money to send to her family because they are poor but never stated to be because of a food problem just personal economic ones while Benny doesn't seem to have any issues either. Nyx is a hermit so she must have foraged or something to live around and if we remember there's a perfectly nice market that you visit when you play Birthright. If I'm missing any other non-royal or information please tell me, I'm a bit sleepy at this hour.

All in all unless the story had told you, the situation in Nohr wasn't even that bad to begin with.

Edited by Raguna

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No offense, but this is equally presumptuous about the character motivations. The food shortage and lack of resources in general is mentioned maybe once, and not even in Conquest. Out of the playable Nohrian characters, we never reallylearn how they feel about the war. As far as we can tell they're all supporting the war out of loyalty to their master and nationalism (EVERYONE IS A CAMUS, even the Awakening Trio). Arthur's whole shtick is JUSTICE but if he ever comments on a just reason for invading Hoshido, I must have missed it.

We can speculate and make head canons about character motivations but that's all it is. Guesswork, loosely supported by the writing.

Fair enough.

To add to Neko's point the only real citizens to speak off fighting in the war who join you not as royal retainers are Charlotte and Benny. Charlotte wants money to send to her family because they are poor but never stated to be because of a food problem just personal economic ones while Benny doesn't seem to have any issues either. Nyx is a hermit so she must have foraged or something to live around and if we remember there's a perfectly nice market that you visit when you play Birthright. If I'm missing any other non-royal or information please tell me, I'm a bit sleepy at this hour.

All in all unless the story had told you, the situation in Nohr wasn't even that bad to begin with.

Man, did the writers really screw up the worldbuilding. Can't even keep what they did build consistent. Though if Thane is right about there being different writers for the story and the supports, that would explain why. Plus I could bring up Sunwoo's argument that what's stated in the story takes precedence over what's stated in supports, though there's still the market to consider.

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Fates's story sucks and I like to make fun of it but I kind of blame the hype on it.

Please don't do that; it ignores all the posts written in great detail where people explain just why they feel the way they do. I'll admit I was hyped, but I would have still, for instance, been disgusted by Xander no matter my expectations, just as I would be appalled by the portrayal of women in Ride to Hell: Retribution if I were to play it, even though I would've known about it beforehand and that it's widely considered one of the worst games ever made.

Having high expectations and being disappointed does not mean that one's arguments are invalid.

Edited by Thane

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It's not my favorite FE story/plot but I still really enjoy it, considering I'm 430+ hours now... I have more playtime in Fates than any other in the series.
They tried something different, I can respect that. Complaining about it is a waste of time and energy anyways.
It doesn't make your opinion any less valid just because you didn't type a huge essay on everything you love about the game.

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To everyone saying Nohr has no just motive- Azura's B support in revelation does indeed gloss over a motive that in my opinion might actually put Hoshido to a degree in the wrong and is a big reason I can't fucking stand pretty much any of the Hoshido siblings (especially Takumi)

Apparently, Hoshido has been refusing to offer aid, food, or fucking anything even long before Garon went crazy, in spite of famine- with Hoshidans literally being described as "maybe outsiders might consider them self centered, as long as they have peace, they don't care about affairs outside their borders"- but with the note someone made about Ryoma not knowing a neighboring country had a famine it really paints the hoshidans as selfish assholes who probably get everything they deserve in Conquest (especially when you consider that they basically attempted to kidnap and murder Azura for "possibly" defecting to Nohr in direct defiance of Ryoma, makes me think Hoshido might have the capability to descend into absolute barbarism if shit hit the fan)

It also makes me seriously question how moral of a person Sumeragi was, especially based on what we learn in Revelation about him. No wonder the Nohrians are just a bit pissed.

I think Conquest!Corrin might be a case of the character knowing more than the audience

I know that others already answered this, but I feel I must add something else.

In Birthright, Silas states that Hoshido is not the only country that Nohr attacks for their resources.

He says that the only way for Nohr to get resources is to steal them from other countries.

Can you blame Hoshido for not wanting to help a country that is know for taking the resources of countries by force?

If I were one Hoshido royal sibilings, I would hesitate in helping Nohr.

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I'm not saying the game is trash or gold either, I still enjoy the crap out of the gameplay, and will mostly likely continue playing it. I try to look at both sides of a discussion, and I read through everything on this thread and what irks me the most is the OP seems to have disappeared without giving any good backup to his claims that the story is good. Maybe I just want someone to find a redeeming quality, and that he didnt bring any forth secretly bugs me. Either way, i left my 2 cents in an earlier post and I'll leave it at that.

You called?

But in all seriousness, I believe that CQ's MU isn't in the wrong. They often outright deny to do what Garon says, hoping that they can change him. Then, they learn that there is no way to change him, and decide to put on a facade so that they can defeat him. As for the Awakening trio, which someone mentioned earlier, it would've been hard for them to betray Nohr in BR, though Selena is clearly against fighting the Avatar in both of the chapters she shows up in.

I do prefer BR, partly as that's the only one I've finished, and also due to how we see the Nohrian royals react to the Avatar's betrayal.

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You called?

But in all seriousness, I believe that CQ's MU isn't in the wrong. They often outright deny to do what Garon says, hoping that they can change him. Then, they learn that there is no way to change him, and decide to put on a facade so that they can defeat him. As for the Awakening trio, which someone mentioned earlier, it would've been hard for them to betray Nohr in BR, though Selena is clearly against fighting the Avatar in both of the chapters she shows up in.

I do prefer BR, partly as that's the only one I've finished, and also due to how we see the Nohrian royals react to the Avatar's betrayal.

This is the problem though. Putting on a facade or no, the execution of Avatar's plan is by allowing countless of people to die in the name of "peace", just for the sake of adding Xander and the rest of the siblings into the anti-Garon harem. Avatar is shown throughout the entirety of Conquest as someone extremely naive, and the game continues to give you hope that something is going to change--for me this was Shura's recruitment chapter. I was like, finally! Some character growth and Avvy will finally "bloody their hands" and hopefully change from this, but nope. Still as naive as ever.

And Selena is against fighting the Avatar in all routes, but this is attributed to them making Camilla cry. In Revelations she even says she's going to kill Avatar for it.

Now don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the game, even with all its flaws. But could you clarify what you think makes the story a good one?

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You can thank some VERY VOCAL MEMBERS WHO DO NOT SHUT UP ABOUT HOW FATES' STORY RUINED THEIR DAY for that. My take is that it could've been better, but it's nowhere near the worst I've seen.

However, lumping people together isn't cool, especially when it comes to likes/dislikes. For reference, I started when FE7 first hit America.

But lumping people together is what Fates fans do best! Haven't you seen the many pairing threads?

Seriously speaking though the more vocal Fates fans seem to be victims of nothing. They're insecure and overly defensive of the game just because of all the critique they see about it but that's just it: It's the newest game in the series so it's going to be what people are talking about the most and it's not like the games are being critically panned or boycotted.

@OP and people who feel the same: Go play the game and stop wasting your time with pointless debate such as this.

Edited by Sirius

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This is the problem though. Putting on a facade or no, the execution of Avatar's plan is by allowing countless of people to die in the name of "peace", just for the sake of adding Xander and the rest of the siblings into the anti-Garon harem. Avatar is shown throughout the entirety of Conquest as someone extremely naive, and the game continues to give you hope that something is going to change--for me this was Shura's recruitment chapter. I was like, finally! Some character growth and Avvy will finally "bloody their hands" and hopefully change from this, but nope. Still as naive as ever.

And Selena is against fighting the Avatar in all routes, but this is attributed to them making Camilla cry. In Revelations she even says she's going to kill Avatar for it.

Now don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the game, even with all its flaws. But could you clarify what you think makes the story a good one?

I just find it a really interesting story. I never felt like the flaws got the way of my enjoyment of it, and I do kind of like how parts of it are left open to interpretation. If a character's morality is debatable then I can see that as good writing in a way. Some could argue I just have shit taste, but at the end of the day, I found Fates to be no worse than any of the prior games in the series that I played (7,8,11,13).

As for CQ MU, I find them to be similar to Lelouch in Code Geass (Though I haven't seen Season 2, so the comparison could fall flat). Both end up doing immoral things to reach their goals, but only Lelouch is called out on it. It made me think that maybe the reason why they don't ever call MU out on what happens in CQ, is because IS want to invoke thought from the player.

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But in all seriousness, I believe that CQ's MU isn't in the wrong. They often outright deny to do what Garon says, hoping that they can change him. Then, they learn that there is no way to change him, and decide to put on a facade so that they can defeat him. As for the Awakening trio, which someone mentioned earlier, it would've been hard for them to betray Nohr in BR, though Selena is clearly against fighting the Avatar in both of the chapters she shows up in

Corrin went back to the aggressor in a war without any form of plan, and as a result of their own idiocy, lots and lots of people died. Intentions will only get you so far.

"It would have been hard for them to betray Nohr", but in Conquest they are okay with killing innocent people even though they came to that world with one specific goal in mind?

As for CQ MU, I find them to be similar to Lelouch in Code Geass (Though I haven't seen Season 2, so the comparison could fall flat). Both end up doing immoral things to reach their goals, but only Lelouch is called out on it. It made me think that maybe the reason why they don't ever call MU out on what happens in CQ, is because IS want to invoke thought from the player.

They wanted to invoke thoughts from the player with a black and white conflict where everything is solved by killing a third party? You're right, that does sound like Code Geass, because in that anime that's how they solve things as well, and it's not just how the world works - if they're going to try and invoke thoughts or make a political statement, it should at least be somewhat realistic. Everyone effortlessly uniting to defeat a third guy and then to expect there to be no complications afterwards is silly and naïve.

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After going over it, I'm sure that a major issue with Fates' narratives is that once again the devs tried to do too much for what they were able to pull off in the end.

Fates has the issue Awakening did in that it tries to juggle what are separate premises for narratives. At the least, Fates has the following:

A. A boy of two worlds settles the conflict between two warring nations

B. A boy fights in a rebellion against a corrupt monarch in a rugged land.

C.A boy goes to war against an ancient threat located within a dead land.

To clarify what I'm saying, I'll bring up Operation Throne. Right before his talk with Azura it's established that Corrin doesn't seek Hoshido's defeat and that Hoshido dindu nuffin'. However, apparently the narrative demands that Hoshido be invaded so that Garon will sit on a throne. Even then, the narrative trying to frame it as the ONLY way to get rid of Gooron, and so Corrin dindu nuffin', is a case of the Avatar worship we've been getting since New Mystery of the Emblem.

And let's not forget the shift that occurred during Awakening. We can point out how lopsided the Hoshido VS Nohr conflict is with the Gooron/Iago/Hans trio being flat and incapable, but Ylisse VS Plegia was hardly better and the Grimleal were a cheap imitation of Loptyr's worshipers.

Edited by Alazen

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I just find it a really interesting story. I never felt like the flaws got the way of my enjoyment of it, and I do kind of like how parts of it are left open to interpretation. If a character's morality is debatable then I can see that as good writing in a way. Some could argue I just have shit taste, but at the end of the day, I found Fates to be no worse than any of the prior games in the series that I played (7,8,11,13).

As for CQ MU, I find them to be similar to Lelouch in Code Geass (Though I haven't seen Season 2, so the comparison could fall flat). Both end up doing immoral things to reach their goals, but only Lelouch is called out on it. It made me think that maybe the reason why they don't ever call MU out on what happens in CQ, is because IS want to invoke thought from the player.

I wouldn't describe the CQ MU as morally ambiguous. It's more a case of the game telling you at every turn that you are a hero but the actions he takes not being heroic at all. That's the opposite of invoking thought, it's lying to you about who your character is.

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I've only done Conquest this far (due to stuff), but I agree with whoever said that it's kind of bad but the hate it gets can get pretty over the top. I do agree with most of the criticism it gets though.

I can't read the writers' minds, but the fact they made 3 games (with an additional story DLC) makes me think that yes, they did want you to appreciate the plot.

Wasn't there an interview where they said that the story was in fact the main focus of Fates? I'm pretty sure there was since I clearly remember Thane bringing it up too.

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Yeah, morally ambiguous would be more like Corrin caring more about the good of the country he grew up than the one he was born in, or at least where everyone thinks he was born in. (We don't know what was going on with Mikoto before she showed up in Hoshido). Now we have somebody who is a hero for fighting to protect his country, but also a villain for attacking another country to do so.

No bullshit about "I'm going to invade this country to save it, and everything will be hunky-dory". If Corrin at least acknowledge the fact what he was doing was wrong and could have serious political consequences, then he would be more of a well-intentioned extremist, instead of a naive fool.

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Please don't do that; it ignores all the posts written in great detail where people explain just why they feel the way they do. I'll admit I was hyped, but I would have still, for instance, been disgusted by Xander no matter my expectations, just as I would be appalled by the portrayal of women in Ride to Hell: Retribution if I were to play it, even though I would've known about it beforehand and that it's widely considered one of the worst games ever made.

Having high expectations and being disappointed does not mean that one's arguments are invalid.

Sorry, I do kind of blame a lot of the hype for it. If it weren't so advertised as something new/having to choose between some incredibly hard choice then there probably wouldn't be as vulgarly large of an outcry.

My bad on poor word choice though.

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I've only done Conquest this far (due to stuff), but I agree with whoever said that it's kind of bad but the hate it gets can get pretty over the top. I do agree with most of the criticism it gets though.

Wasn't there an interview where they said that the story was in fact the main focus of Fates? I'm pretty sure there was since I clearly remember Thane bringing it up too.

It's strange how everyone says the hate is over the top but agrees with the problems; what is over the top, in that case?

Yeah, it was an Iwata Asks interview in which they talked about how people didn't like Awakening's story and wanted to improve it with Fates, about Shin Kibayshi and his previous work, etc. You can find it here: http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/3ds/fire-emblem-fates/0/0

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Over the top is people like you taking over threads like these

Discussing the topic at hand in an orderly fashion is being over the top? Maybe it's my English failing me, but I'm pretty sure that's not what that expression means.

If you want to contribute to the thread and explain to me why I'm wrong, then by all means go ahead.

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Discussing the topic at hand in an orderly fashion is being over the top? Maybe it's my English failing me, but I'm pretty sure that's not what that expression means.

If you want to contribute to the thread and explain to me why I'm wrong, then by all means go ahead.

Orderly fashion? This is a big ass mess. I've already contributed my part pages ago. And I didn't say you're 'wrong'. I swear threads like these make you wet don't they? Either way in my opinion you're over the top with this kinda shit, but if you like doing that then good job. Isn't it tiring though? Well, have fun I guess.

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It's strange how everyone says the hate is over the top but agrees with the problems; what is over the top, in that case?

Yeah, it was an Iwata Asks interview in which they talked about how people didn't like Awakening's story and wanted to improve it with Fates, about Shin Kibayshi and his previous work, etc. You can find it here: http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/3ds/fire-emblem-fates/0/0

Yeah, and that's most likely why the story has gotten so much more focus compared to previous games. That's what happens when you put something on a pedestal, because it's going to get analyzed to death.

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It's strange how everyone says the hate is over the top but agrees with the problems; what is over the top, in that case?

I can only speak for myself, but the intensity of the hate, if that makes any sense. Basically, same reasons that make most people hate on Conquest story make me be "strongly meh" about it. Though to be fair, my negative emotions are generally pretty bland and you would have hard time finding something that I actually hate (I stop at said "strongly meh" for most things). This is partly because I'm quick to move one; even if many things irked me when they happened in Fates story, I quickly forgot about them.

Plus a decade of watching mediocre anime has numbed my brain to silly stuff that happens in Conquest

Also, thanks for the link

Edited by Sylphid

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Been with the series since the PAL version of FE7 dropped for GBA, and I've cleared every single Fire Emblem title. I liked the story of Fates, let me explain why in terms of a list.


1. I didn't go into it with the intention of comparing it to the story of older games.

2. I never expected it to blow me away.

3. I don't need world building to appreciate the plot, it does help, but I don't need it.

4. I've played this entire series cover to cover, since the beginning it has been up to its teeth in tropes, archetypes and things of the like. I'm conditioned to it.

5. The supports may not have been the best in the series but since it's much easier to access supports in the newer FE games, (unlocking supports in the GBA titles was fucking ridiculous, the amount of turn ending and support grinding you had to do was worse than abusing Dancer classes up to level 20) so you get to see far more of them.

6. Say what you will about the story, but the fact that it's centered around making a huge choice in the start was a cool aspect to me.

7. I feel it was better than Awakening which had the Valm branch off which was literally just filler. Sure, you find out in the ending that you were sent to Valm for a reason which I'll avoid spoiling, but even then it really just feels out of place in the story itself which is why it's just a plot filler arc.

8. Despite all of its sins, it stayed true to the game being about family and country most of all, and it never strayed from this.

9. This is a Fire Emblem world where people have feet, Awakening had a world full of stumpy peg legged weirdos.

10. The tribes and such which are autonomous from the countries around them was a cool aspect.

11. The ambience of each country is very fitting in terms of the overall feeling to the plot of each path. Nohr is very dark and it has this true feeling of an empire to it, where Hoshido actually feels like a peaceful faction of feudal Japan.

12. The royal families were actually fairly developed as characters in my opinion.

13. There wasn't really any filler in the game, the plot never steered off its path much and that's nice when Awakening had 1/3 of the game that just completely flew out of the left field.

14. I honestly feel the explanation of time passing faster in the other (and safer for children) dimensions was a better explanation of how your children ended up in your army than that falling out of the future shit Awakening pulled.

15. It has multiple paths instead of one and only one of them is considered canon.

16. Even though I know it has problems and is far from perfect, I still acknowledge the little things that make up for this.

17. I don't let the Tellius games fill me with expectations for every other game I play FE or not. (People actually do this)

18. The classes and weapons you got access to in each path felt right for the region you were playing in. The country you're fighting for affects more than just the main plot and the chapters you play and I thought that was nice, there's an actual difference inside of the gameplay when you change paths.

19. The My Unit character feels much more fleshed out than MU did in Awakening. This isn't to say MU isn't without its problems in Fates, but MU felt like an actual fucking character in Fates, where-as the mysterious stranger found with no memories aspect in Awakening didn't really work until late game when you found out who you were. Awakening feels like the entire story could exist without MU, Fates isn't like this. Plus if you compare the Fates MU to the FE12 MU then you'll really get a taste considering FE12 MU is literally totally forgotten by the in-game history.

20. Certain aspects [spoiler=SPOILER]such as Kaze dying in Birthright if he doesn't have an A support with MU

make the story itself feel deeper as it could alter the way things happen based on choices. It's a shame this wasn't used more in Fates.


Now for the bad.

1. MU is the most morally centered idiot on the planet in Conquest, MU will whine and cry, go on these rants and then turn around and go against everything they said in the following chapter.

2. The pacing for supports into marriage is just fucked. You go from making a cake to pushing out babies in the drop of a hat.

3. Though I don't feel it's needed, there definitely is a lack of world building in Fates.

4. If you don't play Revelations there will inevitably be a lot of holes that don't get filled, and even if you do there's still some holes left in the plot.

5. All of the paralogues and xenologues felt really empty in terms of description and story content, Awakening wasn't as bad about this.

6. It's not Tellius.

7. The fact that [spoiler=SPOILER]MU can spare uber good Kaze and Rinkah the epic benchwarmer in the start of the story but yet then goes on to massacre people including his own adoptive/blood family (path dependent) despite his moral bitch moaning.



8. While I liked the bulk of the supports, some characters support conversations are flat out boring and it felt like the writers just ran out of ideas.

9. The whole alternate dimension thing was never really explained as much as I would've liked it to have been, in fact a lot of shit in this game is never really explained well.

10. Things are a bit too black and white, Nohr is just blood thirsty and evil while Hoshido is full of people who would loan you their last $20 to go buy crack.

11. Both games (especially Revelations) throw a lot of characters at you that never really get any proper development in the main plot or even their supports.

12. The continent in which Fates takes place doesn't even have a fucking name.

13. The inclusion of more anime tropes than usual is a bit annoying for my personal taste.

14. The shit characters say (or really the absolute lack of it) when you invite them into your fuck pad in the castle. They just repeat the same vague lines every single time.

15. I feel the whole bonds thing for A+ supports and marriage with MU could've included a lot more than just blowing on your husband/wife after their bath and prodding them vigorously until they wake up when they're sleeping.

16. Not sure why, but Awakening and now Fates have the main protagonist as a full fledged fucking dragon in terms of heritage. This is just strange. Not to mention the dragons in Fates look fucking stupid.

17. Azura's enigmatic role in the game lacks explanation entirely, even in the end I don't feel enough detail was given to her in terms of her true purpose and backstory.

18. A lot of this game typically ends up just giving you bread crumbs that lead to nothing. You're given the bare minimum of detail most of the time.

19. Sometimes shit was just predicable in the plot, sometimes laughably so.

20. The amount of deus ex machina shit in this game (this is something that exists ONLY to further the plot to the next point and it usually makes little to no sense or is just downright stupid) gets old. Like magical exploding crystals that nobody knew what were yet a certain character knew to shuriken one in a time of crisis.



There's a lot of good and a lot of bad in Fates. I just take it as it is, I like the story, but I was not blown away by it and I realize it could've been done much better. I think the biggest sin Fates pulled was the same thing wrong with Sacred Stones (only Sacred stones made this mistake in both gameplay AND story, where-as Fates only did it in story) which would be the creators getting so ambitious they threw too much shit down on the table and didn't make full use of it. Fates has a plot line FILLED with so much potential that was just wasted. I feel that with some work the Fates story line could be the best in the series. There were a lot of strengths in Fates that could've done so much for the story if they were fleshed out more, but as a result of them not being this way, a lot of the shit in the story just feels empty and sometimes even gimmicky.

Luckily, Conquest saved the series for me in terms of gameplay. I cannot get enough of Conquest's gameplay.

Edited by Mikhail Naumov

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Reading No.7 on Mikhail's list makes me think Conquest plot could have worked fine, if they had Corrin go slowly more and more insane as the plot went on due to PTSD. I mean, he should be having nightmares about killing his siblings.

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In Conquest, the blood sibling who [spoiler=SPOILER]dies would be Ryoma, and after you defeat him in battle he does what any good Samuria would do and commits seppuku. This is supposed to spare MU the despair of killing his own brother, but in my opinion driving him to disembowel himself right in front of you after defeat isn't much better than just killing him yourself. Especially since seppuku would be a brutal, horrible way to go out.

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