What did Arion mean by Trabant's "dismay"?

[Eldigan]

At the beginning of Chapter 9 in FE4, after Trabant scolds Altenna for not participating in the attack on Manster, Arion says:

“I’ve never seen father in such dismay… What could’ve happened…”

I've played through FE4 numerous times, but I've never understood what Arion was referring to. It seems clear to me that this is a prelude to Trabant's suicide attack on the Liberation Army... but what exactly did happen to cause Trabant's "dismay"? Did he already foresee Thracia's eventual defeat after losing Mease? That seems like a bit of an overreaction. Or did Altenna's words to him finally tip him over the point of regretting his past actions? As the designer notes say:

Trabant is a person who tirelessly carried on the role of villain. For his beloved Thracian land, he would tarnish his name and resort to underhand tactics. In terms of the peoples’ view of him, it would seem that he is unbothered, but in reality he was an extremely passionate man. During his battle with Cuan, he made the mistake of killing Ethlin. He wasn’t a blood-thirsty person at heart and that event perhaps influenced his decision to raise Altenna. That’s what he probably thought at the beginning, but later he must have decided to raise Altenna as he knew she was an important figure to Thracia, and that’s why he later educated her to become a ruler. Maybe he also considered the possibility of one day letting her marry Areone. If he wasn’t born in Thracia, he would have been a true hero.

I would be inclined to say that Trabant realizing his actions were wrong is the correct explanation, if not for the fact that he immediately follows it up by kidnapping Corple/Sharlow and threatening to kill the kid.

So... does anyone know what Arion meant? Maybe the original Japanese text has more subtlety that was lost in translation, so I would appreciate it if anyone who knows Japanese can check.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Rinehart

[Jose_Darkeye]

His final phase of his entire life-long plan was "to unite thracia at any cost" so he would have initially wanted to only kill Quan at Yied, but with Ethlyn as a suprise he altered his plans, killing them both. His original plan would have probably been that of seizing Lenster after Quan's death. In the end, as he chose to raise Altenna, Ethlyn would come to his mind (since he "accidentaly" killed her) because of Altenna, implied in the start of the chapter. As he began to break, he would put all his trust to Arionne, his not so "bad named" son, who would fall in love with Altenna later planning a marriage and the unification of Thracia. The Corpul kidnap would somehow hint that he wanted the liberation army to hate him, not feeling anything when killing him.

Hope that made sense <.<

[Dr. Tarrasque]

You might be reading a bit too much into it. The "dismay" referenced here is probably just Trabant being upset over the liberation army getting closer and closer to his kingdom while a weapon that he has come to rely on, Altenna did nothing. As the notes say, Trabant cares for Thracia and when he sees that the child of an enemy he murdered and raised to be one of his best weapons hesitates, it's natural for there to be concern because there's the possibility that someone he raised and came to rely upon could defect to the enemy side further increasing the chances of him losing the kingdom that he worked so hard for.

Areone refers to this as dismay because it's pretty obvious his father has lost his composure over what's happened. When Trabant loses troops while doing mercenary work for other kingdoms, he probably doesn't flinch because shit happens and he's used to it but when this stuff is going down while enemies are coming to a home you care for so much, that gets under your skin. Hell, this might've been the first time he's seen his father scared like this.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Sirius

[Aircalipoor]

I still don't get why he is doing a suicide rush instead of teaming up with his son for a higher winning chance. And if he realized that Thracia has lost, he would be better of negotiating with Celice and hoping that Areone (and Altena) would be spared or still be allowed tu rule Thracia or something like that.

That he has guilt about Ethlyns death seems like a retcon for me. Why would one single life change his attitude? He was killing hundreds and thousands for the sake of his country.

And wasn't Areone supposed to mary Linoan, beause she is the better political marriage? Since Altena is more or less his daughter, he should marry her to another person than his own son t strenghten his political power.

Overall, nothing of this makes sense, if you read too much into it. The game developers wanted a straight situation in which you fight Trabant first and Areone later on, as it makes for a better gameplay.

[Eldigan]

You might be reading a bit too much into it. The "dismay" referenced here is probably just Trabant being upset over the liberation army getting closer and closer to his kingdom while a weapon that he has come to rely on, Altenna did nothing. As the notes say, Trabant cares for Thracia and when he sees that the child of an enemy he murdered and raised to be one of his best weapons hesitates, it's natural for there to be concern because there's the possibility that someone he raised and came to rely upon could defect to the enemy side further increasing the chances of him losing the kingdom that he worked so hard for.

Areone refers to this as dismay because it's pretty obvious his father has lost his composure over what's happened. When Trabant loses troops while doing mercenary work for other kingdoms, he probably doesn't flinch because shit happens and he's used to it but when this stuff is going down while enemies are coming to a home you care for so much, that gets under your skin. Hell, this might've been the first time he's seen his father scared like this.

That makes sense, and you are right, maybe I am reading too much into it. However, I can't shake a strong feeling that whatever happened here caused Trabant to have a dramatic shift in plans. Before the attack on Mease, Trabant says: "Blume’s dead, is he? The empire has finally been purged from Thracia! It’s time to take action, and Manster is first on the list." At this time, he was very confident and fully intended to re-take Northern Thracia. But after his conversations with Altenna (including the next one where she confronts him about her true parentage), he decides to intentionally sacrifice himself to the Liberation Army. It seems like his guilt over this confrontation pushed him over the edge.

I still don't get why he is doing a suicide rush instead of teaming up with his son for a higher winning chance. And if he realized that Thracia has lost, he would be better of negotiating with Celice and hoping that Areone (and Altena) would be spared or still be allowed tu rule Thracia or something like that.

That he has guilt about Ethlyns death seems like a retcon for me. Why would one single life change his attitude? He was killing hundreds and thousands for the sake of his country.

And wasn't Areone supposed to mary Linoan, beause she is the better political marriage? Since Altena is more or less his daughter, he should marry her to another person than his own son t strenghten his political power.

Overall, nothing of this makes sense, if you read too much into it. The game developers wanted a straight situation in which you fight Trabant first and Areone later on, as it makes for a better gameplay.

I would be hesitant to bring FE5 story into this situation, since I doubt any of that was developed yet during FE4's release, but I agree with you that Trabant's "suicide rush" is a nonsensical move from a purely strategic point of view. He even knew this, which is why he passed on Gungnir to Arion since he knew he was going to die. Therefore, the only reason I can think of for his actions is due to guilt, and in some small way atoning for his past actions.

With regards to Ethlin: please read the excerpt from the designer's notes that I posted above. While Trabant is indeed willing to go very far for the sake of his country, there is a difference between selling his services as a mercenary and killing a helpless woman in the desert. Despite doing what he had to do, he always had a bad taste in his mouth about the methods that he was forced to use.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Rinehart

[Aircalipoor]

please read the excerpt from the designer's notes that I posted above.

It isn't the first time that bad guys like Michalis or Trabant get white washed later on. The game states that Michalis killed his father and he is overall a villian. Then suddenly the developers state that his father was incompetent and Gharnef was playing with Michalis fears and manipulated him in killing his father. Is is typical retconing to make bad guys redeemable.

It seems the same with Trabant. Ethlyn wasn't a civilist, but a soldier who accompanied Cuan on a militaristic mission. She also was armed and not sparing your enemy isn't that unusual in war. I agree that he wasn't a pure bad guy and felt guilty for his crimes. But on the same side he considered them necessary and was willing and ambitious (maybe even deperate) enough to enforce them without hesitation. If he really felt bad abput Ethlyns death, then why didn't he show it? In fact, he gloats over it and sees only the benefits of it (pressing Cuan to surrender, raising the child as a weapon). None of his action in-game support his mentality as it is described by the designers.

[Eldigan]

It isn't the first time that bad guys like Michalis or Trabant get white washed later on. The game states that Michalis killed his father and he is overall a villian. Then suddenly the developers state that his father was incompetent and Gharnef was playing with Michalis fears and manipulated him in killing his father. Is is typical retconing to make bad guys redeemable.

It seems the same with Trabant. Ethlyn wasn't a civilist, but a soldier who accompanied Cuan on a militaristic mission. She also was armed and not sparing your enemy isn't that unusual in war. I agree that he wasn't a pure bad guy and felt guilty for his crimes. But on the same side he considered them necessary and was willing and ambitious (maybe even deperate) enough to enforce them without hesitation. If he really felt bad abput Ethlyns death, then why didn't he show it? In fact, he gloats over it and sees only the benefits of it (pressing Cuan to surrender, raising the child as a weapon). None of his action in-game support his mentality as it is described by the designers.

Ethlin wasn't a soldier in the Yied Massacre; she was only accompanying Cuan for a short while and was caught in the ambush. Trabant knew she was carrying Altenna, but decided to kill her anyways.

As for Trabant's personality, it's difficult to tell whether he was whitewashed afterwards or if he was designed with the intention of being a tragic villain. He does say “Areone, I’ve grown tired. It’s me they’re after anyway. Do as you see fit after I’m gone, okay?”, which in my opinion is the strongest evidence that shows he realizes his past wrongdoings and regrets them. However, shortly before this, he orders Altenna to kill women and children during the attack on Manster and captures Hannibal's son as blackmail...

I guess Trabant's a complicated character torn between his innate sense of justice and the "merciless tough guy" attitude that he had to show in order to keep Thracia alive.

[Aircalipoor]

If you accompany the leader of a troop you are basically with them, especially from the eyes of an outsider. Sparring her would be stupid from a pragmatic point of view. She is able to attack and heal her friends. Don't tell me you spare the troubadours and healers in your playthroughs?

Again: I agree that Trabant isn't supposed to be as blackhearted as Manfroy but as someone who is evil out of necessarity. I'm simply not buying that he feels gulty about killing a woman, as it stands against his willingness to dirty his hands for his country. Here is what he says as soon as he spots Ethlyn and Altena:

“Heheh… Cuan has no clue we’re here. He’s got a woman with him, too. That’d be a mistake.

“The woman brought a child with her, did she? Ahh… Cuan’s daughter. This is gettin’ good! You tell ‘im to hand over the Gayborg, otherwise the little girl gets it. Heh heh… Cuan, whatcha gonna do?”

“No, give her to me. I’m takin’ her an’ the Gayborg back to Thracia with me.”

“The woman brought a child with her, did she? Ahh… Cuan’s daughter. This is gettin’ good! Hand her over. I’m takin’ her an’ the Gayborg back to Thracia with me.”

There is not the slightest indication that he feels sorry about killing a woman and abducing her daughter. No indication about "making a mistake" or adopting her out of guilt.

and that event perhaps influenced his decision to raise Altenna.

He was adopting her on the spot without a second thought.

it's difficult to tell whether he was whitewashed afterwards or if he was designed with the intention of being a tragic villain.

I think both of it is true. He was a tragic villain and got whitewashed by the developers, as they say that he only plays the role of a villain and was forced to do it. No, he wasn't, he was a warmongering criminal by choice. They also state that he would be a hero under other circumstances, but this is a rather stupid justification of his acts.

[Irysa]

I highly doubt Travant felt particularly guilty about the Yeld Massacre.

What I think is important to remember that all antagonists in FE4, even the mildly sympathetic ones, are supposed to be critically flawed in some manner. (Heck this applies to the "Good Guys" too but that's a whole other can of worms...)

In Travant's case, it seems fairly clear cut to me; the man has been raised in a country with next to nothing and spent his entire life trying to take over the penninsula, and yet has continously failed to achieve much at all - after Leonster fell, Grannvale swooped in and took over and Travant knew he didn't stand a chance opposing them. I can't remember if it was ever explictly stated but Manster and Thracia seem to have been at blows for a very long time too, so Travant was likely raised to believe absoloutely that taking control of the north would secure the future of the country and the people. He's portrayed as having some humanity underneath all his boorishness, and when the child that he (as I choose to believe, although I also think this is only part of it) took some pity on and raised as his own daughter turns on him, combined with the futility of Thracia's attempts to take over Manster and the beleaguered alliance he's been forced to make with the Grannvale Empire, child hunts and all, he's just done with it. He's tired of it all. He gives up. He says so very explictly to Arion that he just wanted the best for his people and is sick of politics and warfare. I even think he probably felt pathetic in retrospect for having used Hannibal's adopted child to coerce him to fight too.

Travant entrusts the future of Thracia to his son because Travant himself can't live with the shame of surrendering and admitting he was wrong, but he can't bring himself to keep being eternally ruthless as a leader. He also clearly wants Arion to surrender, but he doesn't tell him to, likely because he wants Arion to make his own decisions.

Travant's flaw was that he was just too stubborn to ever think about things in any way other than conquest over the north, and the tragedy is that he likely never knew anything else. When he lost his zeal and belief in conquest, he had nothing left, and went to die.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Irysa

[Eldigan]

Travant's flaw was that he was just too stubborn to ever think about things in any way other than conquest over the north, and the tragedy is that he likely never knew anything else. When he lost his zeal and belief in conquest, he had nothing left, and went to die.

You hit the nail on the head. I think this describes Trabant's situation very well.

He also clearly wants Arion to surrender, but he doesn't tell him to, likely because he wants Arion to make his own decisions.

There's two interpretations of this: (1) Trabant continues to be stubborn to the last and hopes Arion will finish the battle in his place, or (2) Trabant wants Arion to surrender but his ego stops him from saying so outright. It sounds like the latter is true, but it seems Arion interpreted it to be the former, since he explicitly says that he refuses to surrender because of Trabant's last words.

all antagonists in FE4, even the mildly sympathetic ones, are supposed to be critically flawed in some manner

Of course antagonists are flawed, that's why they're antagonists :P A better way to put it is that many of FE4's antagonists have redeeming qualities (such that they aren't purely evil), and some of FE4's protagonists are flawed (e.g., Levin's irresponsibility in the first generation, Cuan's overzealousness leading to the Yied Massacre, etc). Actually, this is one of the reasons why I like FE4 so much; it mirrors reality, which is almost never black-and-white when it comes to good vs. evil. Levin sums this up really well when he talks to Celice about the Lopt Sect:

"You have to be careful when placing labels on good and evil, Celice. Never waste your anger on individuals. Always focus it on the evil within all of us."

Edited June 25, 2016 by Rinehart

[Irysa]

Of course antagonists are flawed, that's why they're antagonists :P

I realise the wording of that wasn't the best. I meant to express that they're supposed to HIGHLIGHT critical flaws that humans can suffer from. And the same goes for the protagonists as you say, even to non playable characters like Eldigan - he couldn't bring himself to break his oaths for the good of his country. Their flaws are pronounced in ways that clearly demonstrate them as the root of their downfall, or in less severe cases their woes.

As Kaga himself said, FE4's intent is to show how people's mistakes could change the world.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Irysa