Is Fire Emblem really screwed up?

[Dinar87]

Am I the ONLY one who doesn't like the new direction the series has taken? Don't get me wrong, awakening and fates are fine games indeed but, compared to the older games (mainly 4,5,9 and 10) they feel extremely lacking in the story departments and in world building and character development...at least awakening does since I've only played that one and not fates.

​Sorry, but I can't stand the non-serious, happy go lucky tones that modern fire emblem has sprinkled throughout its games. I want a dark and gritty war story...not high school teenagers medieval edition (with tons of fan service as well). I once viewed a support convo where Oboro gave Jacob the "stink eye" and I just sat there cringing for about a minute and a half at its stupidity. This is nothing like the excellent supports from PoR where we learn about things like Soren being a branded and how that affected his life. Or what about the time when Rolf's mother tries to see her son but Rolf refuses to even look at her out of loyalty to his brothers (and the fact that she was a shit mother)?

​Now admittedly, I haven't seen EVERY support convo for PoR, awakening or fates but, from what I have seen, The Tellius series DOMINATES the awakening and fates characters and world building. I'd even say the stories are better. It's fine if you like these stories or even think they're good stories but all I'm doing is expressing my opinions on the subject. I hope I don't sound like TOO much of an elitist here. I'm sure there's some good supports in fates somewhere...I fucking hope.

​Luckily the gameplay of the newer titles isn't too bad and I expect that's the exact reason many people have (sadly) voted no on this poll...and in real life as well (just look at the sales of awakening and fates). It seems people just don't give a fuck about well crafted stories anymore which is a real shame. Something similar is happening with the sonic series at the moment (stories in previous games were fun adventures whilst now they're just boring comedies).

I'll probably attempt to make my own FE game that tries to fix all this, fail miserably, and cry.

Edited July 7, 2016 by Dinar87

[Tryhard]

Am I the ONLY one who doesn't like the new direction the series has taken?

No. But not for the reasons you stated, because I think Fire Emblem has always been poor at characterization and story, and the "good" ones are only so because they're marginally better then the others.

[Dinar87]

No. But not for the reasons you stated, because I think Fire Emblem has always been poor at characterization and story, and the "good" ones are only so because they're marginally better then the others.

I disagree. I think the stories in the Tellius series are way better because it takes itself more seriously than awakening or fates. Not to say they have objectively bad stories...they're just not as good (to me) as 9 and 10 were. Even if they were bad it still doesn't excuse them from not trying again to make a fire emblem game with good gameplay AND a good story. Those who settle for good gameplay only are settling for less imho.

Edited July 7, 2016 by Dinar87

[Sentacotus]

I think its largely gotten better especially with Fates how it balanced out the pair up mechanic and weapon system. I also think presentation wise its gotten better as well. Something as small as having dual screens does wonders for FE's UI in my opinion.

[Magical Glace]

Am I the ONLY one who doesn't like the new direction the series has taken?

Nope, I'm with you dude.

Though I prefer the casts of Elibe and Magvel to that of Tellius for the most part.

[Raguna]

Am I the ONLY one who doesn't like the new direction the series has taken?

Nah, I also don't like the recent shift but since the title only asked if Fire Emblem was screwed not if I liked the new direction, I voted no. For all the crap storytelling in Awakening and Fates, the gameplay has always been done well so we're still redeemable. In all honesty, I think the story of Fates at least ended up this fanservicey mess because of executive meddling. Nintendo was too afraid of making Fates leave Awakening's shadow and if you ever play it Dinar you'll see what I mean.

The kids had no bearing on the plot, the marriage system is even more rushed due to even more options, and Conquest and Birthright are all unnecessary because they make no sense from the get go since Azura should have told you something that she does say in Revelations to make those two other versions meaningless. Also there is a lot of filler since they never focused on the story meaning they didn't know what to put in until the final chapters.

So yeah, it can still be redeemed but for that to happen, Nintendo has to realize that senseless pandering will only hurt the overall work but since they're focusing on the otaku culture who as someone said before have a pretty disproportionate amount of money to spend, Nintendo doesn't need to see the problem since they're getting a lot of money from the game regardless.

[Harvey]

Yeah, and the quality of anime is generally considered a lot worse than the anime of the 80s and 90s. There is certainly nothing now that is on par with Legend of the Galactic Heroes for example. Veterans like Miyazaki have expressed extreme dissatisfaction with the state of the industry and a lot of the garbage that gets produced nowadays. Adapting to today's anime trends might make FE sell better to the otaku demographic (which has a disproportionate amount of purchasing power) but it only hurts the series in terms of quality.

Actually, Miyazaki's input is particularly relevant here because a lot of his critiques about anime today are particularly relevant to a lot of japanese-styled video games. The previous generation of anime producers based their stories more on novels, film, or real life events, whether personal or global. As a result, it produced a large amount of diverse and classic works still beloved today and a good chunk of them actually had something worthwhile to say.

In contrast, this generation's anime has been in the hands of otaku. They don't look towards real life for inspiration, only other anime and mainly ones they grew up with. Miyazaki said that these people generally think only of themselves and can't stand other people and I'm inclined to agree.

It's the same with the older JRPGs. Matsuno used the Yugoslavian Wars as inspiration for the Ogre Battle games and medieval politics for FFT. Digital Devil Saga looked to Hindu mythology, Kaga looked towards Legend of the Galactic Heroes and similar war stories (and LoGH was a well known science fiction series before it was adapted into anime). The people at IS mainly seem to be drawing their inspiration from either other Fire Emblem titles, Harem animes or shonen like Naruto, Elfen Lied and Sword Art Online: works that try to be dark and serious but at the same time come off as completely laughable due to the ridiculousness of the characters, designs, and storytelling, with the forced humor being one of the few things that's not funny (because it's so cringeworthy).

It's true that Fire Emblem has always had at least some inspiration from anime. However, it borrowed mainly from tone-appropriate ones like LoGH and also based its storytelling and worlds on more mythological and historical contexts. Like, there's a reason why only FE13 and FE14 have beach episodes and those dumb hot spring gags that are in trashy anime but are nowhere to be seen in any other Fire Emblem game.

I don't think IS is the one making those art decisions majority of the times.....mostly, I think the artists that IS hires per game are the one's to be...well the ones doing the fanservice.

But again, the ridiculousness does reflect on Nintendo's image really so I just don't find it all that bad. I mean, Samus morphing into a ball just proves that Nintendo doesn't want to take reality seriously. :P

[BrightBow]

I don't think IS is the one making those art decisions majority of the times.....mostly, I think the artists that IS hires per game are the one's to be...well the ones doing the fanservice.

Even if Kozaki didn't outright state that it was the art director who designed the armors while he merely designed the characters "in the armor", this issue is far bigger then a few character designs. Like, the artist wouldn't get to decide that you can impregnate adolescent girls or that you can marry your siblings... or touching them for that matter. Nevermind all the leg humping in the script, a stripping mechanic in a game where people supposedly die when they reach 0 HP, the Beach DLC...

And even if Kozaki somehow was the one who decided all of that, it wouldn't matter in the first place. The folks at IS are the ones responsible either way. They are the ones to provide the framework in which Kozaki or any other artist has to work and the stuff he creates is only used in the games if they give the ok.

Edited July 8, 2016 by BrightBow

[Dinar87]

Well I'm glad to see at least I'm not the only one who prefers the older games to the newer ones. There'd probably be plenty more of us if only Nintendo put the Tellius series on VC...well, nothing we can do about that. In short, while I don't HATE fates or awakening I am UNDERWHELMED by a few things...
1. WAY too much fan service. With what I've seen of fates, characters like Camilla or Odin should at least have a 'prudish' version for, well, 'prudes' like me. I don't know why but seeing that kind of stuff takes away from the seriousness of the situations.
2. Poorer characters, world building and stories. This is something I feel the Tellius series got right and awakening and (likely) fates got wrong. I could be horribly incorrect about fates but from what I've seen it doesn't look good. Countries like Begnion (which somewhat resembled realistic country's' issues and struggles) is FAR more interesting than Plegia 'that evil country'.
3. Way too happy. Sorry but I simply prefer non-stop serious war stories to 'kinda serious but sometimes light hearted' stories. I want something dark and gritty. Something where the characters feel like actual people and not walking tropes.
4. Cringeworthy supports-"Stink eye" describes perfectly how shallow and pathetic some of the newer supports have become.

As always, these are just my opinions so feel free to disagree...many of these flaws are based on my experiences with awakening and could change when I actually play fates. For example, I might really like the story of fates so that would no longer be a flaw of the series in my eyes...we'll see what happens.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Dinar87

[Harvey]

Many say that the reason why Awakening and Fates sold well is because of them having waifu.......and really no. I don't think that would be the reason behind it at all if you ask me.

I mean, TRPGs are niche and require lots of time to play them. Heck, after like two weeks, I'm still in chapter 5 of genealogy of the holy war! Granted, the maps are long in that game but still......

By that logic, you can say the same thing for Sakura Wars as well as that series is basically more of dating sim than an actual TRPG.

it does make me wonder.....just how is it possible that Radiant Dawn didn't sell well and Awakening and Fates sold well? How would this impact beyond the 3DS for Fire Emblem is a wonder to me.

If the mobile game is going to do well (which we still to this date haven't gotten any footages and whatnot) then I guess I'll be in relief.....though, that depends on how they do this.

[Levin's Scarf]

Many say that the reason why Awakening and Fates sold well is because of them having waifu.......and really no. I don't think that would be the reason behind it at all if you ask me.

I mean, TRPGs are niche and require lots of time to play them. Heck, after like two weeks, I'm still in chapter 5 of genealogy of the holy war! Granted, the maps are long in that game but still......

By that logic, you can say the same thing for Sakura Wars as well as that series is basically more of dating sim than an actual TRPG.

it does make me wonder.....just how is it possible that Radiant Dawn didn't sell well and Awakening and Fates sold well? How would this impact beyond the 3DS for Fire Emblem is a wonder to me.

If the mobile game is going to do well (which we still to this date haven't gotten any footages and whatnot) then I guess I'll be in relief.....though, that depends on how they do this.

IIRC the marketing wasn't very good with Radiant Dawn. Not to mention that its release coincided with that of Super Mario Galaxy.

I also think that fanservice wasn't the only reason for Awakening and Fates' success. Awakening is really easy to pick up, especially for those who are new to the series. Fates also had the remaining hype from Awakening, not to mention that BR is also easy to pick up for newcomers. Conquest's gameplay also appealed to veterans of the series.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Levin's Scarf

[Topaz Light]

So, I voted for the "yes" option, not because I think Fire Emblem is screwed financially (it demonstrably isn't; the franchise is more profitable now than it's ever been), but because it's managed to kill the majority of my interest in it. The 3DS Fire Emblem games are honestly very quickly moving away from what I want in a Fire Emblem game. They're not necessarily bad games, but as of Fates, I feel comfortable saying that I do not think modern Fire Emblem is really the quite same series I originally fell in love with anymore.

I'm going to be honest, while I do fall into the camp of strongly disliking the increased focus on fanservice and the insistence on trying to sell some of the worst-written protagonists ever as "customizable characters" just because you can customize their appearance, stats, and name (the latter of which not even being remotely unusual for JRPG protagonists), I also have more specific issues with the way the games are set up that I haven't really seen people talk about much.

I guess the biggest thing that really irks me is how there are a lot fewer significant things that you have to earn in order to get, particularly recruitable characters. In games prior to Awakening and Fates, there was a significant portion of recruitable characters who you actually had to go out of your way to recruit, even if getting them wasn't particularly hard if you knew how to go about it. In Awakening, and even moreso in Fates, the majority of the recruitable characters in the game are simply handed to you once you reach that point in the story. There are still some characters you need to work to recruit, to be fair, but they're pretty few and far between. What's more, the vast majority of party members, especially in Fates, are already in your faction before they join you, and their joining up is basically just them joining your specific group, not your faction as a whole. (Not that there were no characters in older Fire Emblem games who were like this, but a much higher percentage of Awakening's and especially Fates' are by comparison). Doing it this way honestly kinda stunts the variety of perspectives among the main party, and it's a lot less interesting to have all these characters' recruitments into your army take place before the game even starts than it is to have the first encounters with them take place during the story itself.

Additionally, making the player's supply of literally every expendable item in the game effectively bottomless essentially kills any sort of rarity or coolness factor certain items may once have had. Hammerne no longer feels significant to get because you can just pick up more from traveling merchants later. Rare items like Tomahawks, Spears, magic swords, those oddball gimmick weapons, etc. are also infinite in supply, to the same sort of effect. I can at least applaud Fates for just cutting the financial middleman and making all weapons and tomes unbreakable. Kind of a more minor thing, and I absolutely don't want to say that Intelligent Systems should be trapped into always making the S-ranked weapons somehow plot-relevant, but I do greatly prefer when they have at least some relevance to the world and its cultures as opposed to just kinda existing and being one-of-a-kind without any actual explanation for it at all.

As far as characterization goes, it's not as much the level of characterization that bothers me as it is the style of characterization. We know plenty about the personalities of the 3DSFE party members; the writers made sure of that. Now, before I get into this, I have to state upfront, I don't mind silly, comedic moments or scenes! In fact, I really like them, provided they're clever, well-timed, and in good taste. What I do mind is that that's the majority of the supports in 3DSFE. I had a whole thing typed up to go after this, but I realized it was actually a bit beside the point; the point being that almost all of your party members in 3DSFE are essentially living in a vacuum that's completely partitioned off from the world you go adventuring in during the main story. All their backstory events are only vaguely elaborated on and only rarely do they actually intertwine with one another's (although they do sometimes! Azura and Arthur's supports come to mind), or with anything in the main story. Previous Fire Emblem games had characters like:

• Azel, the half-brother of Arvis, who's a major nonrecruitable character in the story
• Lewyn, the wayward prince of Silesse
• Renault, a mysterious holy man with a lengthy history that ties him to several other characters, including the main antagonist himself
• Shinon and Gatrie, who actually leave your party at one point due to a falling-out over the mercenary company's direction, and each turn up later in the story at different points
• Jill, a Wyvern Rider who only reluctantly sides with the main party and struggles with fighting against her homeland, potentially even returning to it should you attempt to pit her against her father

Meanwhile, very few secondary characters in the 3DSFE titles have any sort of ties whatsoever to anything that happens in the main story, and it makes them way less interesting and compelling. In my opinion, at least, it's impossible to really develop characters well in a vacuum; they need a world in which to exist, and form relationships, and opinions, and a history. 3DSFE's approach to these things—except relationships, which are usually done so badly it might actually be worse than just vague minimalism—is unjustifiably minimalistic and vague, considering they now have the data space to do an even better job of it than earlier FEs ever have.

Finally, what the hell happened to the between-chapters narration? Seriously, that added a lot more to the worldbuilding and mood of the story than I gave it credit for at first. Bring it back.

[KMT4ever]

I voted No. While I'm not really a fan of where the series is going in terms of story-telling and aestethics, the gameplay is still excellent, and ultimately that's what matters the most to me.

The world-building seriously suffered in Awakening and Fates. I've also played 6, 7, 8, 10, and 11, and in each of those I could really get the sense that I was in a large, living world where nations were battling it out. There were world maps showing each nation in relation to one another, inter-level narrations (especially in Radiant Dawn), reasonably detailed histories, and a variety of characters to give your army a cosmopolitan feel. Awakening and Fates skimp on all of these.

The supports are overall quite mediocre, but what really annoys me is the emphasis on making as many as possible just so people can fulfill their shipping desires. As a side effect of that, the children. Awakening made them interesting characters with relevance to the plot, but also created that dry and soulless monstrosity known as Eugenics Emblem. Fates made choosing their parents less important, but also made them completely extraneous to the game. If FE15 can balance the two I'll be very happy.

The aestethics I have no hope for. Call this nostalgia, but I find myself missing the sprites of GBA days. I don't dislike the 3DS games' battle animations, but they feel bland. At least the sprites were flashy and exciting in their repetition. Character design I have mixed feelings on. Some I really like (i.e. Robin, Lucina, Takumi, Oboro), others are overly sexualized (Cherche, Camilla), or just plain weird (Corrin, every damn dark mage).

I think Fates hit the nail on the head with removing weapon durability, although the various debuffs could be tweaked a little more. Conquest's level design is great, if somewhat frustrating at times, and there's enough objective variety without making things too complicated. The class variety is good, especially with the new weapon combinations. Kinshi Knights in particular fulfilled two of my dreams: lance + bow and flying archer. I like the new weapon triangle too.

[joshcja]

I really do not care about anything else as long as IS keeps pumping out more CQ tier gameplay.

So addictive...

[Goba]

I voted "no way" aswell.

Buuuuut, since Awakening something really went wrong. At first i thought it was because of poorly written support dialogues but that's not the core, it is not bad written dialogues but bad written Characters. Not all but most of them. Just for example Gaius. He is one of the most popular Characters but in my eyes one of the worst Characters, in prior games the chars had their Quirks and all, yes. But this is a small part of their personality and not the one and only thing that makes them. Prior to Awaking the Quirks have been part of a bigger personality while in Awakening and Fates (Fates improved a bit but still half of the cast got the problem) the quirk seems to BE their personality. I don't know if i was able to make my point clear... so i hope you do atleast understand what i meant.

[Goba]

I voted "no way" aswell.

Buuuuut, since Awakening something really went wrong. At first i thought it was because of poorly written support dialogues but that's not the core, it is not bad written dialogues but bad written Characters. Not all but most of them. Just for example Gaius. He is one of the most popular Characters but in my eyes one of the worst Characters, in prior games the chars had their Quirks and all, yes. But this is a small part of their personality and not the one and only thing that makes them. Prior to Awaking the Quirks have been part of a bigger personality while in Awakening and Fates (Fates improved a bit but still half of the cast got the problem) the quirk seems to BE their personality. I don't know if i was able to make my point clear... so i hope you do atleast understand what i meant.

[Goba]

I voted "no way" aswell.

Buuuuut, since Awakening something really went wrong. At first i thought it was because of poorly written support dialogues but that's not the core, it is not bad written dialogues but bad written Characters. Not all but most of them. Just for example Gaius. He is one of the most popular Characters but in my eyes one of the worst Characters, in prior games the chars had their Quirks and all, yes. But this is a small part of their personality and not the one and only thing that makes them. Prior to Awaking the Quirks have been part of a bigger personality while in Awakening and Fates (Fates improved a bit but still half of the cast got the problem) the quirk seems to BE their personality. I don't know if i was able to make my point clear... so i hope you do atleast understand what i meant.

[henrymidfields]

It's more a 60-70% no, 30-40% yes. When I first played Awakening after being away from the franchise for so long, I did feel a reassuring familiarity with how the turn-based simulation game went. However, I am somewhat dismayed by some of the lack of world-building that was in Binding Blade and Sacred Stones; whether it was through narratives, or the locations being numerous and descriptive through text or well-portrayed with the battlefield scene, or even non-support, non-Lord conversations other units had. I also question how main-character-centric the two latest games are, particularly in the tendency to make Robin, Chrom, and the two Fates royal families OP. I prefer Roy's scenario (except for the late promotion) where he needs the battle power and support of other units under him, because this show that leadership, tactics, and teamwork win battles, and it also gives me the sense that greater attention has been given to the non-Lord units.

[saisymbolic]

You know, I can totally understand where the people who want the fanservice toned down are coming from. I totally do. But saying that this is something that originated in Awakening and Fates is nothing but revisionist history. FE has always been rather leaned towards the fanservice side, but fanservice was also done differently back in the day. Look at some of the original artwork from the early games like Linde or Tiki or Tiltyu or Larcei and you'll see it's pretty much on par with what was done in anime back then. Then Tellius came along and brought in furries (which actually caused tons of Internet debates back in the day that are quite similar to this very thread).

FE didn't change as much as it had to adapt to the "anime" crowd it has always been aimed at. I can understand wanting the series to go on a different route, but Awakening and Fates aren't any more or less guilty than what previous games in the series did.

I agree with this.

Take a look at the anime from the 80's and 90's. Then, look at the anime that is mainstream. Then, compare it with how FE has evolved over the years. Look at the story tone, characters and designs; the similarities are quite numerous.

That said, I voted "no."

FE is still going strong. Perhaps, not for the reasons people would like, but it is going stronger than it ever has. There was a point in time where few people knew what games Marth and Roy spawned from while they were in Smash. Now, look at them. FE is becoming a game that people actually know.

I compare the newer FE games to what happened with the Persona series.

P1 and P2 were out and no one gave a rat's ass about it. P3 and P4 come out and everyone and their mom knows the games while Atlus forgets the first two even exist. I would like the darker, more solemn tones of the first two games to be more apparent in a newer title but I try not to let such biased thoughts taint my image of the newer games.

I do the same with FE.

Edited August 21, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[Emerson]

I'm about 10% Yes and 90% No.

On one hand, most of Awakening's supports are well written, the story is "passable", and I found the game decently written. About 25% of Fates' roster, if not less, are very well written imo, and the remainder is split between decent, meh and bad. The same reflects in the supports, where a good chunk are well written, and the rest are decent, meh or bad, but the bad here can get really bad. Conquest is also some of the most fun I've had with FE... until I went and started playing PoR. I've been having tons of fun if not more fun than Conquest, but hey I'm also the guy who enjoys the hell out of Gen 1 of Pokemon, so what do I know?

On the other hand, Awakening's gameplay is both broken for the player and poorly designed at the same time, Birthright was meh (At least it was enjoyable) and Revelations exists. Fates' plot in general also sucks, but that's been said millions of time by now, so I won't expand upon it.

Overall, if we had a game with Awakening's level of writing and Conquest's gameplay, I would be a very happy man. Granted, if we got a new FE in general I'd be very happy.

[DarkDestr0yer61]

I feel like a lot of people think it is 90% no and 10% yes. A lot of people seem to think the gameplay is fine for the most part, but some of the other stuff that Fates has in it is a bit bad. (Such as female designs having their ass showing and the story). I kind of agree. Overall I think Fates is several steps in the right direction, and a few steps back.

Is FE screwed? Oh god no.

Edited August 21, 2016 by DarkDestr0yer61

[The DanMan]

Where's the "in-between" option? Because this isn't a black-and-white debate at all.

All the bad parts of most recent FE's aren't completely original to them- the series' writing has never been the greatest, there's always been some fanservice, main characters were hit-or-miss- you get the point.

Awakening and Fates simply took what was there and exacerbated it.

[Deviddo]

People ask the question a lot and here's the skinny of it:

Old FEs had a different artstyle and themes that were basically "evil kingdom is bad, your side is really nice and wants to beat them".

New FEs try to appeal to the crowd that likes more anime-like artstyles and pretty/handsome characters. Old fans that started with the GBA or even the Ike games here in America hate that sort of thing. Also the stories try to be a bit more "involved"? The stories are leaning more towards the sort of generic anime archetypes that people really don't care for.

Awakening has the time travel aspect that personally appeals to me but fans found it too simplistic. Fates REALLY tries to do something different and old fans think it was handled poorly.

And also "something-something waifu bait".

[Ercdouken]

While I do like the older FEs more, I still enjoy the newer games, so no, the series is not screwed.

[TheAstraWolf]

Not really. Did Awakening screwed up a lot? Yes, did Fates also screwed up? Yes, but at the very least it tried to improve (gameplay mostly). As for Tokyo Mirage Sessions, that is more of a side-project, so in conclusion, I believe this is just a phase that IS is going through and that eventually, they will get past it (or not), but who knows?