Is Fire Emblem really screwed up?

[secondworld]

if they had 2016's technological capabilities in 1990 I bet the first Fire Emblem would be just as fanservicey as it is now

That seems a bit ignorant honestly.

Different people with different visions and mindsets, a different market, different circumstances overall around the games being made, I don't think anyone can say how different or similar it would be.

[FrostyFireMage]

That seems a bit ignorant honestly.

Different people with different visions and mindsets, a different market, different circumstances overall around the games being made, I don't think anyone can say how different or similar it would be.

well I think they would have at least progressed to the current stage a lot faster

[OliKad]

I'm with the majority here. The gameplay of recent FE games - especially Fates - has stayed very solid and super addictive. However, I do feel that some mechanics from older Fire Emblem games (such as some of FE4's) should be brought back.

They also should bring back FE4, FE9 or FE7's quality level in term of storytelling, if you know what I mean. :)

[KoimanZX]

Judging by how the last few Kaga games have been, I really doubt the games would have been as fanservicey as they are today with today's resources. Kaga seems like the type to not like a huge amount of fanservice in his games. Of course, the more overt sexual fanservice and having a self-insert who can marry anyone (plus the face touching) is more there to appeal to the otaku who, unfortunately, make up a sizable portion of the Japanese video game market these days. There are even those over-priced PVC figurines otaku love so much.

Edited October 20, 2016 by KoimanZX

[Lord Raven]

As someone who thinks the series is headed in the wrong direction, I still have to say: at least we didn't head down the path of Final Fantasy (yet).

what do you mean by this... because depending on your definition of the franchise there's been a game for every type of FF fan released in the past few years

[Irysa]

I assume he means its not been milked to death yet like FF has, where the franchise has become more of a weak uninspired and derivative "cathartic" procedure.

Give it a few years (and FE mobile) and we'll see.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Irysa

[Lord Raven]

FF isn't weak or uninspired.

[Irysa]

That's only true in the sense that the franchise has had so much creative energy in it for many years that when it wraps in on itself then it still has a lot to work with. It's comparably unimpressive these days.

[Lord Raven]

That first sentence wasn't particularly coherent.

...So it would be worse?

Have you even played Berwick Saga? Edited October 21, 2016 by Lord Raven

[Irysa]

That first sentence wasn't particularly coherent.

It is derivative of itself now, or rather, it is reiterative. However, because of its history, that means there is still a lot to draw on, thus it is not lacking so much in comparison to other things we may call derivative.

Basically there's a lot of internal value it draws on these days instead of external value. That is all.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Irysa

[The_antithesis]

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Noooooooooooooooooooo...

Actual long answer: Although Awakening and Fates had their flaws, but that doesn't make them bad games. Awakening was one of the worst in the series gameplay wise, but the story and art style were great! Also, the characters were very good. On the other hand, Fates COMPLETELY screwed up on story and characters #BlameTakumi, but revelations had by far the best gameplay in the series. Also, both games sold well, so you know that intelligent systems is going to pour more effort into future fire emblems! It won't be long before they get it right, and when they do...

[shadowofchaos]

Awakening was one of the worst in the series gameplay wise, but the story and art style were great!

I'd argue the reverse.

The gameplay was a fresh change compared to previous entries (opinion) .

Skill system and brand new double (pair up).

Keeping FE12 weapon proficiency bonuses and infinite supports.

Art style was good, but the story was a little screwed up after scrutiny. At face value it was good for a self-insert work on first playthrough, though.

Though, Conquest makes Awakening look like gold in storytelling in comparison.

Edited October 21, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Sire]

I had a long post that I was going to type out and put here regarding my pros and cons of FE 7-14 (minus 12 since it was never localized), but then the editor decided to quit on me and I lost all of my progress... So, instead of that, I'll try to be more general instead.

Classic and Modern FE both have their ups and downs. The main points of contention of modern FE (Awakening and Fates) are the subpar story and the extreme amount of fanservice (My Room, Marriage + Kids, Unit Designs that show off panties or have boob windows, Character Designs like Nowi, Tharja, Ophelia, Camilla, and so on.) A minor point of contention is the inclusion of self-insert Avatars, which can improve or lessen the experience for players. (Yes, Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword did have an "Avatar", but I saw that inclusion was done fairly well as the Avatar mostly worked behind the scenes. When it had a story moment, it made sense, and it was cool to see characters talking to the "player".)

Gameplay wise, Modern FE is still all right, with Conquest having some of the most memorable gameplay of Fire Emblem with its varied objectives. Awakening introduced Pair Up, which is an interesting mechanic, and Fates refined the concept further and also allowed the enemy to use it. The music is still amazing with memorable tracks, and the modern artist does a good job of portraying characters (It is said that the designs are from the art director, the artist simply draws what is asked). Fates brings back some of the over the top animations which is nice to see. The Skill System is fun to play around with... Again, Modern FE is still good, but the story and anime fanservice is a bit too much for some of us veterans, and some of us fear that this trend will only get worse.

What I miss from the classic FE are the interesting support conversations, especially that from Sacred Stones which I believe may have the best Supports in the entire franchise. Not all character endings end up in marriage, one is a father & son ending, another is the old war veteran and the new recruit, and there is even the Male Guardian and the Princess, where the Princess is married off to someone else while the Guardian cries on how much she has grown. I much rather have a lower number of support conversations that are excellent in quality than a bunch of them that rely on gimmicks and cliches.

Also, I miss the lore. Sure, Fire Emblem may not always have a good story told in game and may overly rely on "Big Kingdom invades Small Peaceful Kingdom", but having interesting background lore about the world is amazing. Tellius, for example, has a bunch of different countries (Daein, Crimea, Bengion, Gallia), with a whole backstory on ancient heroes, the Great Flood, and the different Laguz tribes. Fates just has two countries with some minor factions mixed in that are never really expanded upon. Maybe Fates lore is so secret one will die if they talk about it.

Essentially, dial down the fanservice, make a good story, continue with the awesome gameplay of Conquest, keep the awesome music, and the next Fire Emblem should turn out fine. It's just that the anime fanservice (avatar, My Room, marriage + kids, character designs, etc) has been overbearing as of late.

Edit: I was going through my posts, and I think this sums up my thoughts fairly well. It was made back in March of this year.

The fanbase will need to sort itself out between the old players and the influx of the new generation. I started off with the Sacred Stones and played every game released stateside since (including Blazing Sword), but in the words of Honest Game Trailers, I saw Fire Emblem transition from a "balls hard tactical game to a balls hard tactical game wrapped in an anime visual novel." I don't mind fanservice, and I get a kick out of the nonsense every now and then, but I am worried about how far they will go. The "My Room" models were nice and the dialogue added a little more to their character, but I could live without the petting and cooling them off. I'll take the swimsuits over that, there are some armor designs that are somehow more revealing and suggestive than a simple swimsuit.

I guess I suggest simply tread with caution. Swimsuits seems to be the easy way for fanservice, and that I can deal with. Having virtual characters proclaim their love to you and make suggestive remarks is when I start slowly backing away from my 3DS, saying "What did I get myself into?" That said, my daughter Kana is too adorable. I thought female Morgan was adorable, but Kana is another beast entirely. Please send help.

Overall, I think Fire Emblem has a good future ahead of itself. They still have the gameplay mechanics down, as demonstrated in Conquest, and they still have memorable characters (Arthur, Benny, Felicia, F!Kana, the trio, too many list...) I would like to see them improve on story some more and maybe tone down the fanservice a little bit, but otherwise, I'm still fairly happy with the series as a "veteran" player.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Sire

[twice]

I don't feel like reading through all the pages, but I voted no.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

The gameplay was a fresh change compared to previous entries (opinion) .

If the map design and mission objectives are excluded, yes.

If not, big no.

[Lord Raven]

It is derivative of itself now, or rather, it is reiterative. However, because of its history, that means there is still a lot to draw on, thus it is not lacking so much in comparison to other things we may call derivative.

Basically there's a lot of internal value it draws on these days instead of external value. That is all.

Thought whether or not it is stale/uninspired is highly subjective because I've enjoyed every FF I've ever played. In either case, wouldn't it be a good thing for FE to hit that point? Lower production values makes it easier for a new game to be released in comparison too.

Also I'd like to just expound a tiny bit on the guy that said Kaga designs bad games - Berwick Saga suffered from Arrested Development syndrome where it was extremely highly reviewed but it had poor popularity/sales. I think if you consider it an FE game it was definitely the best one gameplay wise and Conquest was second. Some guy said Revelations was the best gameplay for some reason though...

Also TRS was fun even though it was broken and some maps were a shit.

[Irysa]

Thought whether or not it is stale/uninspired is highly subjective because I've enjoyed every FF I've ever played. In either case, wouldn't it be a good thing for FE to hit that point? Lower production values makes it easier for a new game to be released in comparison too.

It is not a question of whether it is unenjoyable or not, I agree that its subjective as to which games are more enjoyable. Uninspired does not mean unenjoyable. I used the word catharsis before for a reason.

I don't see how it follows that the games becoming more enjoyable to you is therefore a good thing though. If all a work is going to do is just masturbatorily wallow in it's own established conventions then whilst that's good business, I think that's pretty undesirable from an artistic and cultural perspective.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Irysa

[Cyas]

On the other hand, Fates COMPLETELY screwed up on story and characters #BlameTakumi, but revelations had by far the best gameplay in the series.

Did you mean to say Conquest? Because this would be the first time I see somebody praise Revelations' gameplay.

Anyway, FE isn't screwed in my opinion. The gameplay is still fun, in the case of CQ even good, and the games are selling well.

[Lord Raven]

It is not a question of whether it is unenjoyable or not, I agree that its subjective as to which games are more enjoyable. Uninspired does not mean unenjoyable. I used the word catharsis before for a reason.

I don't see how it follows that the games becoming more enjoyable to you is therefore a good thing though. If all a work is going to do is just masturbatorily wallow in it's own established conventions then whilst that's good business, I think that's pretty undesirable from an artistic and cultural perspective.

How can something be undesirable culturally and good business? If it's undesirable from a cultural standpoint then it would tank but it's going 15 games strong.

The games have always have been pretty unique relative to one another anyway unless I'm missing something somewhere, so it's not like it's been masturbatorily wallowing in its own conventions.

[Irysa]

How can something be undesirable culturally and good business? If it's undesirable from a cultural standpoint then it would tank but it's going 15 games strong.

You misunderstood me. I don't mean that current culture would deem it undesirable, more that examining such things from a perspective that is focused on the art and culture that make up the work leads to fairly unsatisfying and bland conclusions, which are undesirable.

The games have always have been pretty unique relative to one another anyway unless I'm missing something somewhere, so it's not like it's been masturbatorily wallowing in its own conventions.

I don't really think FF is really that bad in that respect either, it was just an analogy, but I do think that most of what comes out of it is fanwank of varying degrees, the saving grace being its got enough different ideas across its rich history to make it seem relatively fresh still. However this is starting to drift rather far off topic for a Fire Emblem Debates subforum discussion so...

Edited October 21, 2016 by Irysa

[Ace Pelleas]

I haven't played Fates and Awakening,the most modern FE that I played was Radiant Dawn,but I have seen friends playing it and I definitely think that things are going downhill,the paired combat was a reall good addition,but I definitely think that all additions aren't a turn for the modern,but a turn for the worse. The fan-service is too high,we should rename the series Waifu Emblem.

Radiant Dawn for me was when the series reached its highest point. Besides the lack of balance,support conversations and the quantity of units that game was amazing,good quantity of objecitives,multiple choices(only one,but it was well introduced),amazing chapter design(like 2-E,1-E,2-3,3-8 4-5,4-3 Endgame-2),cool design for everyone(except Meg,Nealuchi,Kysa and Brom). If there is a new FE coming I would like seeing it similar to RD

[DarkDestr0yer61]

I haven't played Fates and Awakening,the most modern FE that I played was Radiant Dawn,but I have seen friends playing it and I definitely think that things are going downhill,the paired combat was a reall good addition,but I definitely think that all additions aren't a turn for the modern,but a turn for the worse. The fan-service is too high,we should rename the series Waifu Emblem.

No offense, but I found this hard to take seriously considering you haven't played those two. Not saying that your opinions are necessarily wrong, but it is easy to look at something and make judgments by it. But you don't surely know that something is a certain way unless you play it for yourself

[Lord Tullus]

Radiant Dawn for me was when the series reached its highest point. Besides the lack of balance,support conversations and the quantity of units that game was amazing,good quantity of objecitives,multiple choices(only one,but it was well introduced),amazing chapter design(like 2-E,1-E,2-3,3-8 4-5,4-3 Endgame-2),cool design for everyone(except Meg,Nealuchi,Kysa and Brom). If there is a new FE coming I would like seeing it similar to RD

Honestly, if you think that the series is at a new low, I'm there with you, as far as fan service and story/characters go. However, the gameplay in Fates Conquest is probably some of the most engaging it's been in years, even topping FE 10, in my opinion. If you want to steer clear of the game because of the stories/characters/fan service, that is completely fine. That's up to you. But I highly recommend playing through Fates Conquest at least once (skipping the story and dialogue if you want) just to experience the great map design and dynamic Ideas introduced/brought back. There are a few characters that I quite like as well, so it's not the worst that the series has to offer. Also the art has made a significant improvement from awakening. A fitting style for the game, I'd say.

[Junkhead]

I used to say that before I played the last two. The fanservice in terms of scantily-clad being far more prominent caught me off, but having had played them, I really enjoyed them. It's a very minor issue.

With the steady takeover of Mary-Sue Self Inserts, poor map design in FE13, and outright confusing and poorly done plot in said game, I've lost faith in IS to do anything really.

Now try Nohr (Fates).

[Radiant head]

nohr gameplay without the fan service and actually coherent story would pretty much be my ideal fe game.

praying they nail it for fe15 on the switch.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Radiant head