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[Under Construction] Fates PvP Ruleset


Nihilon
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I have updated the first post with a new ruleset based on Chromagna's post (which was awesome, by the way). I would like everyone to go back and read it and give feedback, especially on rules 0, 1, 2, 4, 8, 9 and 11. I believe that once we finish up these last open questions, we will have our first usable ruleset.

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0) As long as both players and any other parties involved agree, any rule can change at any time.

1) No more than one of the same class.

// Exception for classes such as Kitsune and Wolfskin, as those are limited anyway?

2) No more than two classes from the S-tier.

// I personally think this rule is a good idea, but I'd really like feedback. I've yet to see anyone comment on it.

3) No multiples of the skills Galeforce, Warp, Replicate and Nohrian Trust, and no more than one of these skills on the same unit.

4) Galeforce may not be combined with Spendthrift and Life and Death at the same time.

// Possibly disallow the combination of these skills entirely?

5) No more than four breaker skills per team, and no more than one per unit.

6) Statues are banned. They can be rebuilt at no cost after being destroyed, so no need to worry about wasting DVP.

7) No forged weapons.

8) No tonics or other stat-boosting items.

// Should this also apply to the unique weapons, i.e. the Yato, Siegfried, Raijinto, Brynhildr and Fujin Yumi?

9) Only two uses of Freeze, Entrap, Rescue and Hexing Rod.

// Should we also include Enfeeble and Silence? And would it maybe make more sense to just allow one full rod/staff of them? That would be 4 uses for Freeze, Enfeeble and Silence, 3 for Hexing Rod and 2 for Entrap and Rescue.

10) No bond units, amiibo, prisoners or Einherjar. If the unit has a shield symbol, it's not allowed.

11) No boots.

// Under consideration: allowing them up to a certain limit (likely 4).

12) Handicap is turned off.

13) Skill combinations, weapons and other items gained through hacking (such as Nohrian Trust on non-Corrin 1st gen units) are banned outright. An exception can be made for non-battle affecting hacks, such as Aptitude on 1st gen units.

I think it is best to just leave boots alone. If the rest of the peeps here disagree with this then just allow boots :D With the staves just keep the regular uses on them. For stat boosting weapons, I think it is best to leave them as available. In the case of spendthrift and galeforce, its the prospect of both units being killed without being able to retaliate. As long as they don't have galeforce or one of the +10 attack moves (might as well add aggressor in the mix too), the units actually stand a chance to survive and maybe its best to keep those skills in the use once type thing with replicate, galeforce and warp.

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After consideration I think we should +1 forged weapons, since otherwise we would rob Odin of his Personal Skill and +1 does not make a big difference.

This is also a good consideration that is worth noting.

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After consideration I think we should +1 forged weapons, since otherwise we would rob Odin of his Personal Skill and +1 does not make a big difference.

I think we shouldn't change the rule solely for that. It's not like it'd make Odin the only unit with a useless personal skill... Isn't that right, Dwyer?

I think it is best to just leave boots alone. If the rest of the peeps here disagree with this then just allow boots :D With the staves just keep the regular uses on them. For stat boosting weapons, I think it is best to leave them as available. In the case of spendthrift and galeforce, its the prospect of both units being killed without being able to retaliate. As long as they don't have galeforce or one of the +10 attack moves (might as well add aggressor in the mix too), the units actually stand a chance to survive and maybe its best to keep those skills in the use once type thing with replicate, galeforce and warp.

I'd like to wait for more responses from people on the boots and staves matter, but for now, I'm tending towards boots being banned and full use of staves. As for the Galeforce/Spendthrift thing, should we just disallow combining Galeforce with any of Spendthrift, Life and Death or Aggressor entirely?

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I think we shouldn't change the rule solely for that. It's not like it'd make Odin the only unit with a useless personal skill... Isn't that right, Dwyer?

I'd like to wait for more responses from people on the boots and staves matter, but for now, I'm tending towards boots being banned and full use of staves. As for the Galeforce/Spendthrift thing, should we just disallow combining Galeforce with any of Spendthrift, Life and Death or Aggressor entirely?

I am ok with boots banned.

And banning the galeforce+Spendthrift/Life or Death/Aggressor is fine with me ^^.

Totally forgot Dwyer^^

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Took another look at a few classes:

-Great Lord is likely A or B tier due to having slightly better STR (+1) and SPD (+1) than Lodestar and not being sword-locked, but she also has lower SKL (-3) and LCK (-5) and can't S-rank swords. Swordmaster still outclasses her in offense just like it outclasses the Lodestar in offensive.

-Grandmaster is likely C tier due to having an unimpressive max SPD of below 30 before modifiers and trying to be too well-rounded like a Basara -- classes that do well in PvP are heavily specialized in what they do, not well-rounded.

-On a similar note, Basara, Merchant, Hoshido Noble, and Nohr Noble are C-tier on the basis that they're too well-rounded and they're generally outclassed in what they do by a specialized class.

-Great Master, Priestess, and Maid/Butler are probably C-tier since they're outclassed by the Falcon Knight, which has superior mobility to support its staff usage, despite the fact that Great Master, Priestess, and Maid/Butler can use higher level staves (which aren't that useful as PvP generally sees usage of status staves and Rescue).

-Onmyoji is either B or C tier. It's likely to be usable but it's rather outclassed by Witch which has higher HP, MAG, SPD and ability to S-rank tomes whereas Onmyoji has only has higher SKL and staff access.

-Strategist is probably B-tier by being a magical class with high mobility and impressive MAG. However, it can't fly so it's not as mobile as a Falcoknight or Dark Falcon and its SKL isn't the most impressive though it is the most mobile class that can use A-rank staves. It's also slower, has lower MAG, and more physically fragile than the Witch class. It also can only use up to B-rank tomes. If you REALLY want to use Great Festal and/or Fortify in PvP, Strategist is the best option though those 2 staves aren't often used in PvP, especially when PvP is all about hyper-offense.

-Oni Chieftain and Blacksmith are likely C-tier due to lack of usage and that they're outclassed by Berserkers, Witches/Dark Falcons/Sorcerers, and Swordmasters/Lodestars (and Generals for tank role).

-Bow Knight is probably B or maybe even A-tier in that it rivals the Kinshi Knight in terms of stats as a fellow mobile bow-user. However, it's held back by having lower mobility if there are terrain effects present in the battlefield.

-Heroes are probably C-tier since Berserkers and Swordmasters outclass them. Not sure how usable they can be.

-Wolfseggner could rival the Berserker in terms of stats using Beaststone or Beaststone+. However, the Berserker most likely still outclasses it due to having greater variety of weapons that can allow it to potentially do much greater damage. Probably B, if not C-tier.

-Nine-Tails is rather similar to the Wolfseggner in that it's similar to the Swordmaster or Master Ninja classes in terms of stats. It'll most likely get outclassed by Swordmaster and Master Ninja due to Swordmaster and Master Ninja having greater weapon variety, especially by the latter due to using primarily 1-2 ranged weapons, many of which boost that class's SPD by +2. Probably B, if not C-tier.

-It goes without saying, but Lancer and Pegasus Knight are banned due to only being available on guest units only (with Pegasus Knight only available without hacking if you own the Japanese version of the game).

Edited by Roflolxp54
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I would put Maid/Butler in B tier even A Tier

since they are the only Units able to revive a fallen Unit.

Bifrost can't even be used in PvP.

There goes that.

Anyway, I'll update the tier list later, thanks for the input. Though I'd appreciate input on the rules, too!

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I'd like to wait for more responses from people on the boots and staves matter, but for now, I'm tending towards boots being banned and full use of staves. As for the Galeforce/Spendthrift thing, should we just disallow combining Galeforce with any of Spendthrift, Life and Death or Aggressor entirely?

Just ban Boots.

Disallow combining Warp/Galeforce with Spendthrift, Life and Death, Aggressor since that combo turns matches into a matter of who gets the first turn/strike.

Not sure if the combo of Replicate/Galeforce and Strength/Magictaker should be allowed since they can't achieve the full effect with the ruleset's disallowing of Replicate and Galeforce together and that the full -taker effect is impossible to achieve (to be of any use, that is) during the match due to each team only having a max of 5 units.

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I would restrict other Skills to 2 or 3 of the same Skill, just to bring more diversity into the Game (also to prevent the same skillset in every Unit on the Team. Miracle, Counter, Countermagic and Quicktoxic is a lot of a mental Challenge, especially if most of the enemies run that set.)

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Can someone explain to me why forged weapons/stat boosters are not gonna be allowed? I haven't really had an experience in online pvp. Couldn't we do a limit of +2/3 and isn't their already a limit on stat boosters unless i am mistaken.

Edit: I would like to participate as well although I am in NA. So unless they have a NA post about this I'll stay here

Edited by LethalNarwhal
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Can someone explain to me why forged weapons/stat boosters are not gonna be allowed? I haven't really had an experience in online pvp. Couldn't we do a limit of +2/3 and isn't their already a limit on stat boosters unless i am mistaken.

Edit: I would like to participate as well although I am in NA. So unless they have a NA post about this I'll stay here

Stat-boosters are fine so long as they are not on an exploited unit or if it is a stat hack. Statues on the other hand are too tricky to deal with because they create unfair advantages for those who have grinded and no longer need the rest of their my castle buildings. Forges unbalance a lot of weapons and unbalance classes. We are keeping forges at a minimum of +1 to remove the factor of +7s being over-powered. Even at +2, some weapons start to rival that of S-tier weapons which takes away from a classes weapon cap.

I would restrict other Skills to 2 or 3 of the same Skill, just to bring more diversity into the Game (also to prevent the same skillset in every Unit on the Team. Miracle, Counter, Countermagic and Quicktoxic is a lot of a mental Challenge, especially if most of the enemies run that set.)

That's why I was considering just having the cap set to 1 of each skill. It isn't exactly difficult to do and diversifies gameplay but people were unhappy with it from my recall. Or maybe one person was. I don't know and I don't want to read through 3 pages of posts xD

Just ban Boots.

Disallow combining Warp/Galeforce with Spendthrift, Life and Death, Aggressor since that combo turns matches into a matter of who gets the first turn/strike.

Not sure if the combo of Replicate/Galeforce and Strength/Magictaker should be allowed since they can't achieve the full effect with the ruleset's disallowing of Replicate and Galeforce together and that the full -taker effect is impossible to achieve (to be of any use, that is) during the match due to each team only having a max of 5 units.

Shouldn't need to worry about taker skills as they are pretty much +2s by the point of one kill. So they don't do much to begin with. It's only at 3 kills. So they are more of a 'seal the deal' type thing and you need all kills on one unit so pretty useless for PvP. I think banning those skills when put together is the best way. That way we can't have any warp/galeforce OTKOs. Even the latter three are scary on their own when combined and if placed on something like a kinshi knight with boots, that is one unit that is helplessly going to die no matter what.

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I don't really like restricting all skills to just one, like a member said, we don't really have that much different for pvp useful skills and in the end most teams will run the same skills...

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Made anaccount because this idea interests me. However, I don't understand why we don't just run limited mode. "I got rng screwed" isn't a valid excuse imo. Pairing for growths/aptitude is part of team building, and stat boosts are how you get ridiculously capped skills. Limited also solves the forging issue while still letting Odin use his personal. You can even use boots for single player/other modes with limited, making it feel less arbitrarily restricting.

I definitely like the idea of limiting warp/replicate BS, which is 100% ruining pvp.

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Made anaccount because this idea interests me. However, I don't understand why we don't just run limited mode. "I got rng screwed" isn't a valid excuse imo. Pairing for growths/aptitude is part of team building, and stat boosts are how you get ridiculously capped skills. Limited also solves the forging issue while still letting Odin use his personal. You can even use boots for single player/other modes with limited, making it feel less arbitrarily restricting.

I definitely like the idea of limiting warp/replicate BS, which is 100% ruining pvp.

Getting RNG screwed for level ups is a valid excuse since you're completely relying on the RNG (or RNG seed if you're on Lunatic difficulty) for any decent level ups -- Limited mode pretty much introduces another random factor that can determine whether you win or lose a match. There's really a higher entry barrier than perceived due to potential need to get perfect level ups. Effects from statboosters like Goddess Icons, as well as Eternal Seals, are REMOVED during Limited mode -- the only stats you'll have are those from base, level ups, and promotions/reclassing only. Character statues are already banned from the rulelist. Boots also get removed during Limited mode and you may find yourself having less options for weapon choices simply because you didn't max out your weapon ranks before reaching your level cap.

Players running Aptitude on any first generation unit except Mozu during the main story are automatically at an unfair advantage over those playing legitimately (no illegal skills at all during playthrough, etc.) when doing Limited mode PvP.

Odin's personal skill being invalidated isn't exactly something to make a big deal over since due to player castles being banned, Dwyer's personal skill is automatically invalidated.

Edited by Roflolxp54
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Getting RNG screwed for level ups is a valid excuse since you're completely relying on the RNG (or RNG seed if you're on Lunatic difficulty) for any decent level ups -- Limited mode pretty much introduces another random factor that can determine whether you win or lose a match. There's really a higher entry barrier than perceived due to potential need to get perfect level ups. Effects from statboosters like Goddess Icons, as well as Eternal Seals, are REMOVED during Limited mode -- the only stats you'll have are those from base, level ups, and promotions/reclassing only. Character statues are already banned from the rulelist. Boots also get removed during Limited mode and you may find yourself having less options for weapon choices simply because you didn't max out your weapon ranks before reaching your level cap.

Players running Aptitude on any first generation unit except Mozu during the main story are automatically at an unfair advantage over those playing legitimately (no illegal skills at all during playthrough, etc.) when doing Limited mode PvP.

Odin's personal skill being invalidated isn't exactly something to make a big deal over since due to player castles being banned, Dwyer's personal skill is automatically invalidated.

Really the Odin thing is just a side benefit. But you're increasing the barrier to entry by allowing stat boosters at all, since there are not the many stat boosters in the game that you don't have to farm encounters for: and because you CAN farm them then people WILL do so to get an edge, even if it takes a ridiculously long time.

Resetting for some sub-optimal levels on a couple characters isn't that big of a deal. Farming stat boosters/seals so you can have everything capped takes less planning and much more grinding. Since a big part of this seems to be relieving the "pay to win" aspect, try to understand how insane this is without the gold DLC.

I still am not really seeing the argument against limited mode.

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Really the Odin thing is just a side benefit. But you're increasing the barrier to entry by allowing stat boosters at all, since there are not the many stat boosters in the game that you don't have to farm encounters for: and because you CAN farm them then people WILL do so to get an edge, even if it takes a ridiculously long time.

Resetting for some sub-optimal levels on a couple characters isn't that big of a deal. Farming stat boosters/seals so you can have everything capped takes less planning and much more grinding. Since a big part of this seems to be relieving the "pay to win" aspect, try to understand how insane this is without the gold DLC.

I still am not really seeing the argument against limited mode.

There are other ways to get gold without the need for DLC if you're playing Birthright or Revelation such as doing challenge battles and selling unwanted items (ie. extra Gold Bars from Profiteer skill or Lilith and Iron weapons from Salvage Blow) for more money. Farming encounters is more for gaining experience for level ups and gaining funds for Eternal Seals than farming for statboosters (which only have a chance of showing up in certain encounters anyways). It's not "insane" to get a unit all the way to lv. 99 and beyond in Birthright or Revelation without using gold DLC and it's doable even without popping a single statbooster for said unit.

For players intending to use their Conquest file (why?) for PvP without any DLC/hacks, Limited mode will have to do since they don't have practical options for grinding.

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There are other ways to get gold without the need for DLC if you're playing Birthright or Revelation such as doing challenge battles and selling unwanted items (ie. extra Gold Bars from Profiteer skill or Lilith and Iron weapons from Salvage Blow) for more money. Farming encounters is more for gaining experience for level ups and gaining funds for Eternal Seals than farming for statboosters (which only have a chance of showing up in certain encounters anyways). It's not "insane" to get a unit all the way to lv. 99 and beyond in Birthright or Revelation without using gold DLC and it's doable even without popping a single statbooster for said unit.

For players intending to use their Conquest file (why?) for PvP without any DLC/hacks, Limited mode will have to do since they don't have practical options for grinding.

I find that simply resetting to ensure stat gains in the relevant stats is better and healthier than grinding to level 99 and grinding the gold necessary for it. It would take a significant amount of time without DLC, you don't gain more than a couple thousand per battle after factoring in scouting unless you're using Anna etc. Trying to buy expensive eternal seals this way would take a long time no matter how you slice it.

You don't get stat bloat where everyone has a mandatory time commitment to max everything, class growth rates/planning becomes a balancing factor etc. Unless you are resetting with the intent to get perfect levels with a stat in everything for everyone(unrealistic and unnecessary), limited doesn't impose much of a time sink. Growths are generous in this game with proper planning. It's not hard to only reset when you don't get one in the 3 or 4 stats you need every level. Many people already do this just for single player alone.

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Made anaccount because this idea interests me. However, I don't understand why we don't just run limited mode. "I got rng screwed" isn't a valid excuse imo. Pairing for growths/aptitude is part of team building, and stat boosts are how you get ridiculously capped skills. Limited also solves the forging issue while still letting Odin use his personal. You can even use boots for single player/other modes with limited, making it feel less arbitrarily restricting.

I definitely like the idea of limiting warp/replicate BS, which is 100% ruining pvp.

Well the whole idea behind this is to reduce the teams that are game-breaking and make a level playing field. For limited, it is a real pain for those having to restart the WHOLE game just to get good level ups which may not even be guaranteed. I do understand your point but grinding is easier than playing through the game again especially because you lose all your current progress on stuff like resources and my castle buildings as well as child units from the parents you had to grind just to get them. That is why we avoid limited. Not only that, hackers can still get through.

EDIT- Its also not just replicate and warp. All the rules we have created are trying to ensure that there are no OTKO teams or master ninja/flier spam or josephine as well as the typical replicate and warp OTKO teams.

EDIT- Thank you for your contribution as well :D

Edited by Chromagna
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Well the whole idea behind this is to reduce the teams that are game-breaking and make a level playing field. For limited, it is a real pain for those having to restart the WHOLE game just to get good level ups which may not even be guaranteed. I do understand your point but grinding is easier than playing through the game again especially because you lose all your current progress on stuff like resources and my castle buildings as well as child units from the parents you had to grind just to get them. That is why we avoid limited. Not only that, hackers can still get through.

EDIT- Its also not just replicate and warp. All the rules we have created are trying to ensure that there are no OTKO teams or master ninja/flier spam or josephine as well as the typical replicate and warp OTKO teams.

EDIT- Thank you for your contribution as well :D

Yeah, I'm aware that its more than just warp and replicate, but those are definitely the most egregious and obvious offenders lol. I was use using 'em as examples.

Also, should we really be worrying about hackers in this type of custom ruleset? Anyone that cheats would just get blacklisted by the community. Im envisioning this as something a little bit similar to Anthers Ladder for Smash Bros. You can cheat there too, but not for very long without getting caught haha.

I'm not 100% against eternal seals, but I dislike seeing all capped stats. I feel like it sterilizes the game and removes a component of team building. That's all there is to it, really. And also, wouldn't anyone have a separate file for PvP to begin with? You're gonna need to perfect your pairings to stay competitive, I'd imagine that most peoples first playthrough isn't perfect in this regard. I know mine wasn't, I have a separate file for PvP team building.

Edited by GawainSB
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Yeah, I'm aware that its more than just warp and replicate, but those are definitely the most egregious and obvious offenders lol. I was use using 'em as examples.

Also, should we really be worrying about hackers in this type of custom ruleset? Anyone that cheats would just get blacklisted by the community. Im envisioning this as something a little bit similar to Anthers Ladder for Smash Bros. You can cheat there too, but not for very long without getting caught haha.

I'm not 100% against eternal seals, but I dislike seeing all capped stats. I feel like it sterilizes the game and removes a component of team building. That's all there is to it, really. And also, wouldn't anyone have a separate file for PvP to begin with? You're gonna need to perfect your pairings to stay competitive, I'd imagine that most peoples first playthrough isn't perfect in this regard. I know mine wasn't, I have a separate file for PvP team building.

Why we are not using limited mode:

Because in limited mode, you need to rely on the RNG for good level-ups. As you said, it IS possible to just reset every time you get a bad level... but that is a) much more time-consuming than Eternal Seals and b) always favours the people who put that one extra reset in for the chance to maybe get 6 points instead of 5. This is just going to bog people down with resetting their levels over and over and we do not want that - people should be able to get to battling sometime rather than worrying about whether they could get that one extra stat point. Battling the RNG is not fun. Thus, Eternal Seals.

Additionally, limited mode greatly encourages the use of Aptitude on everyone for the leveling process, greatly favouring people who have either hacked the skill in or obtained them from castles somehow. While we do allow Aptitude in our ruleset, it's for the simply practical reason that it's nearly impossible to check whether someone has been using it. And in limited mode, everyone who has used Aptitude will always have a huge advantage over someone who hasn't. Not using limited mode greatly diminishes this normally unfair advantage.

And having all-capped stats does not "sterilize gameplay", it provides a level playing field for everyone, which is exactly what we want. In a competition, player skill should decide, not simply who has the bigger numbers.

You can use limited mode if you and your opponent both agree to it, but we're not going to have a ruleset for it, partly because limited mode already has its own ruleset. But our rules are intended to lay out the groundwork for people who don't want to battle the RNG for good level-ups.

Edited by Nihilon
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Bump.

As there haven't been many objections, I'll be finalizing the ruleset this weekend and set up a Discord server when I get the opportunity. We should do a test run or such once I've done so - to see if everything works fine and our ruleset has some sense. This'll be the beta test before release, so to speak. I invite as many people as possible to participate at that point - I'll edit the first post with the relevant information once I've set everything up. Let's have some PvP fun!

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Bump.

As there haven't been many objections, I'll be finalizing the ruleset this weekend and set up a Discord server when I get the opportunity. We should do a test run or such once I've done so - to see if everything works fine and our ruleset has some sense. This'll be the beta test before release, so to speak. I invite as many people as possible to participate at that point - I'll edit the first post with the relevant information once I've set everything up. Let's have some PvP fun!

Even create another post for the trial itself. I will join in, granted I can actually set up a decent team

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