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[Under Construction] Fates PvP Ruleset


Nihilon
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Glad to hear we have more and more people on board with this idea. While I think it is fine to limit the royal weapons, I really don't think it is necessary. Corrin needs all the help he can get as he is stuck with the dragon weakness meaning wyrmslayer/dragon spirits will be scary.

Oh yeah, I completely spaced on those, and how common they'll probably be due to how common the Avatar and Kana are likely to be.

With the other weapons, they aren't completely scary but we may want to look in to this a bit more.

No, I suppose they aren't that bad, but tat the same time, with no restriction on them, Revelation would break the balance of the three games within the ruleset.

Lethality in our rules can only be used once on a unit anyway along with aegis and pavise. The combination may need to be restricted though as tanking everything and waiting for lethality proc is a fair annoyance.

It is? I re-read the rules, and I could find anything about it in them. And with regards to the latter, yeah, not to mention one or two units on Staff/Rod duty to heal them up, or the Renewal Skill.

With the healing skills, I guess I agree but it is probably fair to look in to it a bit more first.

Fair enough.

Venge weapons are usually fine as long as they aren't on a tanky unit. As for forging, we will most likely be allowing legal +1s tops. The problem with venge weapons is you a) lose that first turn to attack, b) miss out on a lot of attacking opportunities and c) rely on the enemy not being able to effectively counter your unit.

I'm a little confused. How do the Venge weapons lose the first turn to attack and miss out on a lot of attacking opportunities? They seem to have enough power to where using them offensively as opposed to defensively is still quite effective.

Using a seal mid-game requires a turn and wastes a lot of inventory space plus only has one use. Probably not that useful to begin with.

Eh, I suppose you're probably right, although I'd still be willing to experiment with the idea.

Hoshidan unity is not a hugely OP skill but with our rules, it is already limited anyway.

It is? I know Nohrian Trust is limited, but I didn't find Hoshidan Unity anywhere.

Our rules already counter anything OP about breaker skills much like yours.

Yeah, I did see the rule you had regarding Breaker Skills, however, the distinct difference is how with the rules we already have here, one could still place multiple Breaker Skills on a Unit, and still have duplicate Breaker Skills on a team.

Boots is still in controversy but the general rule at the moment is banned. I personally think this is better as it can make flier teams even more ridiculous and also allows for some crazy support staff that is a little on the OP side.

Hmm... Fair enough, I suppose. In that case, what if there was a rule in place where units with a default Movement of eight were banned from using Boots, and below eight could only use one pair? After that, you could restrict teams to maybe three or four Boots per team.

[On an unrelated note, I'm not sure how to attribute the quote to their proper owner, Chromatic. I believe this site runs on the same structure as Nugget Bridge's, but even so, I can't remember how to do it.]

Edited by Red Striker
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Hey guys. Just joined, and I'm glad to see that there's already a thread for this. I was thinking of making a competitive Fire Emblem: Fates club at my high school this upcoming year (possibly as a senior project), and had already started developing a ruleset. Looking things over, this is pretty close to what I was starting on, although there are a few differences. This is what I might want to add to what's already here:

  • The Yato is banned

The Conquest and Birthright versions aren't that bad, but the Revelation version is a tad scary. Ideally, the ruleset needs to be made to where anyone playing any version of Fates could take part in it equally. I'm all for keeping Seigfried/Raijinto and Brynhildr/Fujin Yumi in play, but the Yato is a bit much. Those being mentioned:

  • Limit of one Sacred Weapon per team

This refers to Raijinto, Seigfried, Brynhildr, and the Fujin Yumi. I'm assuming we're only using five units per team like standard online PvP, and having 2/5ths or 4/5ths of a team with these weapons seems to be a bit much. Also consider that if the cap was set to two, Revelation players would only need to pick 2/4 available to them while Birthright and Conquest players would have to go with their full 2/2 Sacred Weapons.

  • Only three Weaponbreaker skills per team

Additionally, units may only have one Breaker skill equipped at a time (so no Lancebreaker and Shurikenbreaer equipped at once), and no duplicate Breaker skills per team may be permitted (ex., using all three of those slots for Swordbreaker).

  • Limit two units with Hoshidan Unity per team
  • Limit one unit with Lethality per team

In addition, if a unit has Lethality, they're not permitted to have a combination of Pavise and Aegis; just one or the other.

Edit (8:40 PM, PDT): No, there's no getting around this with a support partner, either. If supported, the supporter is also under the restriction.

  • Renewal + Better Odds + Even Better is banned

Because recovering 70% of your HP per turn is a little ridiculous. Renewal + BO or Renewal + EB is fine.

  • Limit three Venge Weapons per team

I'm not sure if this should be set to two or three, but either way, if the opponent constantly leaves these equipped at the end of their Phases, sending your units against them becomes hard to do without taking absurd amounts of damage or dying all together.

----

That wasn't everything, however, anything else I would've said would've been redundant with the current rules, anyway. I do have my own thoughts on the posted rules, though...

3- Galeforce with both Spendthrift and life and death are banned.

I hadn't thought about this before, and I especially spaced on Spendthrift. Good call.

-

5- No statues. (They can be broken and placed before and after for no cost so it is not detrimental.)

Thank goodness.

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6- No forged weapons.

That's interesting. I'm a tad split on this one, although I can understand why this is here. Facing down a forged +2/+3 Venge Weapon is not my idea of fun, not to mention hacking.

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7- No tonics or stat boosting items.

Would this also apply to mid-battle Seal usage as well? I do believe there are ways one can tactically change Classes in the middle of battle.

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9- All bond, einherjar, amiibo and prison units are banned. (Exceptions could be made if both players agree on it.)

Again, thank goodness. I've seen a tutorial on how to max out stats on these units with no effort at all.

-

10- Boots are banned. (Still undecided.)

I wouldn't ban these, rather, limit them to maybe three per team (assuming teams of five), and only one per unit.

----

Well, there's my two cents. I'd be more than interested to hear any of your guys' thoughts and criticisms on it all. Quick question: what are the general thoughts on accessories used in castle battles with regard to the rules? Personally, I'm not too sure about them just because I think they're another part of the game, but at the same time, in battle, they seem like something that gets in the way of seeing the players' raw skill, if that makes any sense (I'm not entirely sure of how to word my thoughts on it).

Hm, I can see where you're coming from a lot these of bans, but let me show you some cases against them.

Yato: It is certainly over-inflated with stats, yet, I feel Corrin's dragon weakness is enough compensation. Also, in an environment like online currently where nearly everyone max forged weapons, the Yato is pretty lackluster in combat, especially considering it's melee only.

Sacred weapons: Although all wielders are human, their weapons also offer less stats and bonus effects, especially against guys with +7 weapons. The only weapons here I would even consider worrying about are about the sacred swords, because at least they have above average range in comparison to other swords.

Breakers: Now that I have encountered all breaker units a little more, I can sympathize a little. Although granted, I'm only just at endgame. In Conquest. Idk how I would fare against units like these with a better equipped team, but overall I disagree with their restricted use.

Unity: Honestly, Quixotic is much better, even if it gives the same bonus to the enemy. Either way, I'm generally against limiting skill usage.

Lethality: Yes, it's most definitely cheesy, but it's proc rate isn't high enough to consider it worth restricting. If you were going to restrict it, the combination of it with Quixotic and/or Hoshidan Unity is much more ban worthy than any aforementioned restrictions IMO, because it having a high proc rate is what really makes it broken it the end.

Regen Skills: I haven't seen this at all, so I can't make a great verdict, however, only like 6 units can even have any of these skills together legally anyway, as well as it being a waste of 2 slots. It doesn't seem that bad on paper at least.

Venge Weapons: Who even uses these? Even so, 3 out of the 4 Venge weapons are melee, and only ranged Venge weapon is the Ink Painting, which can only attack once, and also applies silver debuff. I don't see how these are problematic.

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I can understand the Venge weapons....A tank unit can really abuse them. Think about it...Venge weapons do double damage on counter attacks...the Venge katana for example, has 9 MT to begin with, then becomes 18 on counters...and if that tank has Strong Riposte or Swordfaire, that one counter will really hurt. Yes they can be countered easily by just avoiding close range combat, but that won't always be the case. Plus, unlike the Silver weapons, they have no drawback like lowered stats after battle...So yes, they can be problematic. Like you said, the Ink Painting is about the only one with a drawback and its the only ranged one, but if the opponent has Wary Fighter, that won't matter. Especially if the damage from that one blow is substantial. Only problem with that weapon then is the silver debuff which is understandable as to why nobody would really use that weapon.

Edited by Hothead9323
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Yato: It is certainly over-inflated with stats, yet, I feel Corrin's dragon weakness is enough compensation. Also, in an environment like online currently where nearly everyone max forged weapons, the Yato is pretty lackluster in combat, especially considering it's melee only.

This was already addressed by Chromatic, which I've since replied to in my last post here. Also note that I'm specifically addressing the rules we have here, so (max) forged weapons are rather irrelevant right now.

Sacred weapons: Although all wielders are human, their weapons also offer less stats and bonus effects, especially against guys with +7 weapons. The only weapons here I would even consider worrying about are about the sacred swords, because at least they have above average range in comparison to other swords.

Again, since I'm only concerning myself with the rules we're trying to build here at the moment, forged weapons, maxed or not, are still irrelevant.

Breakers: Now that I have encountered all breaker units a little more, I can sympathize a little. Although granted, I'm only just at endgame. In Conquest. Idk how I would fare against units like these with a better equipped team, but overall I disagree with their restricted use.

I feel there needs to be some moderation with them, as having one unit single-handedly go through (most of) your team unless you have another unit of your own full-up on them sounds ridiculous to me.

Unity: Honestly, Quixotic is much better, even if it gives the same bonus to the enemy. Either way, I'm generally against limiting skill usage.

The fact that Quixotic applies to the enemy as well is part of what really balances it, in my opinion. Either way, according to Chromatic, Unity is still limited either way (although I'm still not too sure where it says that, despite having re-read the rules).

Lethality: Yes, it's most definitely cheesy, but it's proc rate isn't high enough to consider it worth restricting. If you were going to restrict it, the combination of it with Quixotic and/or Hoshidan Unity is much more ban worthy than any aforementioned restrictions IMO, because it having a high proc rate is what really makes it broken it the end.

I suppose you have a point, although I'm not sure about the idea of completely killing it off, either.

Regen Skills: I haven't seen this at all, so I can't make a great verdict, however, only like 6 units can even have any of these skills together legally anyway, as well as it being a waste of 2 slots. It doesn't seem that bad on paper at least.

Still, the fact that those units exist is what counts. You're more likely to see it on Kana, as with a Dragonstone equipped, she regains 85% of her HP per turn. Given the right parentage and how the Dragonstone turns him/her into a tank, you have a nearly indestructible Kana. For example:

Kana the Undying Build

Class: Hoshidan Noble (higher Lck/Def/Res average)

Skills: Renewal / Better Odds / Even Better / Wary Fighter / Swordbreaker*

Parents: +Def/-Spe Avatar, Peri!Hisame

Stat Mods: +3 Str / +1 Mag / -2 Skl / -3 Spd / +3 Lck / +5 Def / +5 Res

Final Stats (before Dragostone): 60 HP / 37 Str / 29 Mag / 27 Skl / 27 Spd / 36 Lck / 36 Def / 33 Res

Final Stats (w/ Dragonstone): 60 HP / 37 Str / 29 Mag / 24 Skl / 25 Spd / 36 Lck / 40 Def / 36 Res (Crit. Evade +10 as well)

*Specifically Swordbreaker, as something tells me that Wyrmslayers are or will be more common, and even with Wary Fighter, facing down a Swordmaster with one of those could get scary. I am still debating if whether or not Tomebreaker might be better, however.

I'll admit, the Skill stat is low with or without the Dragonstone, but that aside, if used right, this unit has the ability to stay afloat for quite some time.

Venge Weapons: Who even uses these? Even so, 3 out of the 4 Venge weapons are melee, and only ranged Venge weapon is the Ink Painting, which can only attack once, and also applies silver debuff. I don't see how these are problematic.

These weapons, I've found, are actually quite potent. I suppose I could be somewhat biased, what with my more defensive playstyle, but even so, they aren't the kind of weapons units can typically rush down without hving some kind of Breaker Skill equipped or a weapon triangle advantage (and even with the latter, it can still be risky at times). Truthfully, I had spaced on the Ink Painting. Would I ever use it? Heck no. Even I know it's bad. But the rest are pretty good.

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Also what about a mode where only personal skills are used and all other skills are unequipped? :o

Maybe later, rigth now we want to finish one ruleset, others may follow later. If we were Working on multiple rulesets at the same time we would never finish one ;)

But your idea is noted for future alternet rulesets.

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Oh yeah, I completely spaced on those, and how common they'll probably be due to how common the Avatar and Kana are likely to be.

No, I suppose they aren't that bad, but tat the same time, with no restriction on them, Revelation would break the balance of the three games within the ruleset.

It is? I re-read the rules, and I could find anything about it in them. And with regards to the latter, yeah, not to mention one or two units on Staff/Rod duty to heal them up, or the Renewal Skill.

Fair enough.

I'm a little confused. How do the Venge weapons lose the first turn to attack and miss out on a lot of attacking opportunities? They seem to have enough power to where using them offensively as opposed to defensively is still quite effective.

Eh, I suppose you're probably right, although I'd still be willing to experiment with the idea.

It is? I know Nohrian Trust is limited, but I didn't find Hoshidan Unity anywhere.

Yeah, I did see the rule you had regarding Breaker Skills, however, the distinct difference is how with the rules we already have here, one could still place multiple Breaker Skills on a Unit, and still have duplicate Breaker Skills on a team.

Hmm... Fair enough, I suppose. In that case, what if there was a rule in place where units with a default Movement of eight were banned from using Boots, and below eight could only use one pair? After that, you could restrict teams to maybe three or four Boots per team.

[On an unrelated note, I'm not sure how to attribute the quote to their proper owner, Chromatic. I believe this site runs on the same structure as Nugget Bridge's, but even so, I can't remember how to do it.]

I had a full reply to this but my internet was being buggy and it wouldn't post. Lemme just do a quick reply to get it done though. Revelation breaks everything to begin with and just by banning it means that it is less level, it is level versatile and less balanced. Revelation brings more strategy with pairings, weapons, characters etc and will be used a base at least for now. My take on the rules was no multiple of any skill but I think this was changed. Venge weapons lose turns to attack because they are only stronger than other weapons when in defence. Otherwise, it is better to use brave weapons. Especially with quixotic, a high damage proc and galeforce as that is twice the chance to proc.

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If someone has Revelations is also honest that he can took ful efficiency from it, so no point in banning Royal Weapons just to equilibrate...the main problems are skills and forged weapons, the rest is just filler at the moment! First we should decide about forged weapons

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Revelation breaks everything to begin with and just by banning it means that it is less level, it is level versatile and less balanced. Revelation brings more strategy with pairings, weapons, characters etc and will be used a base at least for now.

This is true. It did occur to me as fact, but I still wasn't sure if maybe there was some way to even it out a little bit; having to pay $20.00 to keep up with the rules does seem a tad ridiculous to me, but at the same time, I completely understand the point you're coming from.

My take on the rules was no multiple of any skill but I think this was changed.

This isn't a bad idea still. It forces people to get creative instead of, I don't know, putting Rend Heaven and/or Quixotic on every Unit they come into contact with. Seriously, this is somewhat bothersome (even if the Skill isn't that great against Str-centeric builds with abysmal Mag stats and vice versa). Relating this back to some of the rulesets I'm familiar with in Pokemon, in the official rulesets, there's what's commonly referred to as an "Item Clause"; Pokemon aren't allowed to hold the same Item as another Pokemon on the team, meaning instead of having an entire team hold Leftovers - and this happens a lot in the unofficial Single Battle tiers - only one Pokemon could hold it while the other five would need to be holding completely different Items from each other. For your own and other members' curiosity, as well as for reference if you wanted to take notes from another format:

Official Play! Pokémon VGC Rules and Formats.pdf (Straight from the official Pokémon.com Play! Pokémon Rules & Resources page)

Smogon Pokemon Black and White Clauses and Banlists

If I were to use any of these as a more emphasized reference, I'd personally go with the official Play! Pokemon ruleset, as it's a lot more organized.

Venge weapons lose turns to attack because they are only stronger than other weapons when in defence. Otherwise, it is better to use brave weapons. Especially with quixotic, a high damage proc and galeforce as that is twice the chance to proc.

I still see them as being useful offensive tools. While they don't always strike twice, the fact that Venge Weapons don't lower Def or Res means something. I'm aware Skill procs are a thing, however, I have a little bit of a hard time completely going with this, because in the same vein, it's not like a unit can proc much of anything if it's dead. In the end, I think they both have their place in different situations, but I don't think the Venge weapons should necessarily be knocked out as viable offensive weapons.

Edited by Red Striker
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This is true. It did occur to me as fact, but I still wasn't sure if maybe there was some way to even it out a little bit; having to pay $20.00 to keep up with the rules does seem a tad ridiculous to me, but at the same time, I completely understand the point you're coming from.

This isn't a bad idea still. It forces people to get creative instead of, I don't know, putting Rend Heaven and/or Quixotic on every Unit they come into contact with. Seriously, this is somewhat bothersome (even if the Skill isn't that great against Str-centeric builds with abysmal Mag stats and vice versa). Relating this back to some of the rulesets I'm familiar with in Pokemon, in the official rulesets, there's what's commonly referred to as an "Item Clause"; Pokemon aren't allowed to hold the same Item as another Pokemon on the team, meaning instead of having an entire team hold Leftovers - and this happens a lot in the unofficial Single Battle tiers - only one Pokemon could hold it while the other five would need to be holding completely different Items from each other. For your own and other members' curiosity, as well as for reference if you wanted to take notes from another format:

Official Play! Pokémon VGC Rules and Formats.pdf (Straight from the official Pokémon.com Play! Pokémon Rules & Resources page)

Smogon Pokemon Black and White Clauses and Banlists

If I were to use any of these as a more emphasized reference, I'd personally go with the official Play! Pokemon ruleset, as it's a lot more organized.

I still see them as being useful offensive tools. While they don't always strike twice, the fact that Venge Weapons don't lower Def or Res means something. I'm aware Skill procs are a thing, however, I have a little bit of a hard time completely going with this, because in the same vein, it's not like a unit can proc much of anything if it's dead. In the end, I think they both have their place in different situations, but I don't think the Venge weapons should necessarily be knocked out as viable offensive weapons.

I am actually doing VGC 17 when it comes around but thanks anyway xD I have been doing my fair share of competitive pokemon but haven't taken it seriously due to other commits but that changes as of next year.

While paying $20 is a bit ridiculous, this would still be the case for anyone who bought conquest unless they relied on RNG or bought DLC. On top of this, I just think Revelation is a much better platform for it all.

Venge weapons don't allow you to pick an opponent meaning that the enemy can take you down at their own pace. This is scary if you cannot counter-attack with 1 tile weapons against ranged weapons.

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I am actually doing VGC 17 when it comes around but thanks anyway xD I have been doing my fair share of competitive pokemon but haven't taken it seriously due to other commits but that changes as of next year.

While paying $20 is a bit ridiculous, this would still be the case for anyone who bought conquest unless they relied on RNG or bought DLC. On top of this, I just think Revelation is a much better platform for it all.

Venge weapons don't allow you to pick an opponent meaning that the enemy can take you down at their own pace. This is scary if you cannot counter-attack with 1 tile weapons against ranged weapons.

Dude, that's great. I've been studying the game since a little into Platinum, when I had the huge-ass book that came out on the release day, but didn't start playing competitively until the start of the VGC 2012 season. I'm happy to hear that you'll be starting next season!

No, despite how how ridiculous it might seem, I agree with you. I suppose in my original rules, I wanted to see if I could maintain some kind of balance, but really, that could only go so far.

I suppose I do see what you mean now: in order to make full use of the weapons, they'd need to be counterattacking.

So, out of curiosity, were the rules we have here written for five-man teams or ten-man teams?

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Dude, that's great. I've been studying the game since a little into Platinum, when I had the huge-ass book that came out on the release day, but didn't start playing competitively until the start of the VGC 2012 season. I'm happy to hear that you'll be starting next season!

No, despite how how ridiculous it might seem, I agree with you. I suppose in my original rules, I wanted to see if I could maintain some kind of balance, but really, that could only go so far.

I suppose I do see what you mean now: in order to make full use of the weapons, they'd need to be counterattacking.

So, out of curiosity, were the rules we have here written for five-man teams or ten-man teams?

For 5. That is the standard for online multiplayer

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Hi.

I normally just lurk around and leech off people's castle skills, but I made an account to give some $ 0.02. I am a bit new so if I'm wrong about things, feel free to ignore. I've been a part of smogon since 2005 and am in an engineering profession, so with that background I'm trying to come up with an optimized ruleset that makes a compromise between user friendliness and the actual health of pvp combat.

There's simply too many rules, and a lot of them are hacky bandaids. Like the tomebreakers, and how many times people can use hex, etc. I would just outright ban those staves, they really wreck the flow of strategic play and/or they just completely gimp roles (ie. hexing a general.. so much for being a tank?). I'd also remove the tomebreaker rule alltogether. These 2 rules I am suggesting because nobody wants to do this kind of bookkeeping chore and the current numbers are pretty arbitrary .

There's multiple rules related to banning some permutations of skills or the number of them. I would just give a list of banned skills, starting with galeforce. It looks like this skill is barely ok independently, and with several combinations with other skills, it's just too much, or it just gets abused from logbooks, etc. Just get rid of this. Give a list of banned skills and you can cut rules #3, #2, and maybe even #9.

The list I've come up with looks something like this:

1. Your units may not have a blue shield icon

2. Banned skills: <list of skills>

3. Any item in inventory that is finite usage is banned bar healing staves

4. No statues

5. No unobtainable hacks

Gray area rules:

1. Boots - stacking them is op but they are also permanent.. so it's not like you can just take them off when you wanna pvp.

2. Forged weapons - I'm listing this here solely because of odin.

Overall, I condensed the list to just 5 simple rules while trying to address >90% (or at least as much as I could) of issues that would be detrimental to a competitive environment.

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-Heroes are probably C-tier since Berserkers and Swordmasters outclass them. Not sure how usable they can be.

If I may, I'd like to argue that Heroes are actually kinda underrated. For one thing, their skill actually rivals Master Ninjas; both are the same at max when not counting the unit's cap mods. They're also stronger than Master Ninjas, have better defense, meaning that they can take more hits, have better luck for miracle/vantage tanking(if that's gonna be a thing), Higher HP, and just enough speed. The only thing that holds them back is not having reliable ranged weapon like the Master Ninjas does, but if Heroes gets in with a Forge Axe/Dual Katana/a slayer weapon if the unit is Velouria/Selkie/Kana etc., they could probably kill in one shot or two if the Hero survives the counter attack. Not being able to use A ranked axes isn't really a hindrance since Steel/Sliver/maybe even Iron can do the Job.

I'd say they're around the middle of B tier since they do have trouble dodging and dealing with magic. Also I don't think they have a hidden skill like Berserkers +20% crit bouns.

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If I may, I'd like to argue that Heroes are actually kinda underrated. For one thing, their skill actually rivals Master Ninjas; both are the same at max when not counting the unit's cap mods. They're also stronger than Master Ninjas, have better defense, meaning that they can take more hits, have better luck for miracle/vantage tanking(if that's gonna be a thing), Higher HP, and just enough speed. The only thing that holds them back is not having reliable ranged weapon like the Master Ninjas does, but if Heroes gets in with a Forge Axe/Dual Katana/a slayer weapon if the unit is Velouria/Selkie/Kana etc., they could probably kill in one shot or two if the Hero survives the counter attack. Not being able to use A ranked axes isn't really a hindrance since Steel/Sliver/maybe even Iron can do the Job.

I'd say they're around the middle of B tier since they do have trouble dodging and dealing with magic. Also I don't think they have a hidden skill like Berserkers +20% crit bouns.

You have to remember that when comparing master ninja and heroes that master ninjas have higher speed by 3 (which makes a lot larger difference then at first glance) and have an S rank in a 1-2 ranged weapon. This is crazy stuff and I wouldn't really try comparing them because master ninja is just a much better class and is also more versatile. Hero doesn't do much in any particular role and that is its let down.

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Hi.

I normally just lurk around and leech off people's castle skills, but I made an account to give some $ 0.02. I am a bit new so if I'm wrong about things, feel free to ignore. I've been a part of smogon since 2005 and am in an engineering profession, so with that background I'm trying to come up with an optimized ruleset that makes a compromise between user friendliness and the actual health of pvp combat.

There's simply too many rules, and a lot of them are hacky bandaids. Like the tomebreakers, and how many times people can use hex, etc. I would just outright ban those staves, they really wreck the flow of strategic play and/or they just completely gimp roles (ie. hexing a general.. so much for being a tank?). I'd also remove the tomebreaker rule alltogether. These 2 rules I am suggesting because nobody wants to do this kind of bookkeeping chore and the current numbers are pretty arbitrary .

There's multiple rules related to banning some permutations of skills or the number of them. I would just give a list of banned skills, starting with galeforce. It looks like this skill is barely ok independently, and with several combinations with other skills, it's just too much, or it just gets abused from logbooks, etc. Just get rid of this. Give a list of banned skills and you can cut rules #3, #2, and maybe even #9.

The list I've come up with looks something like this:

1. Your units may not have a blue shield icon

2. Banned skills: <list of skills>

3. Any item in inventory that is finite usage is banned bar healing staves

4. No statues

5. No unobtainable hacks

Gray area rules:

1. Boots - stacking them is op but they are also permanent.. so it's not like you can just take them off when you wanna pvp.

2. Forged weapons - I'm listing this here solely because of odin.

Overall, I condensed the list to just 5 simple rules while trying to address >90% (or at least as much as I could) of issues that would be detrimental to a competitive environment.

First off, the rules are set in place for a reason. This is to make gameplay fair and that was the intent the whole time. The rules are actually only minor in the grand scheme of things. For staves, I don't think they should be banned. Using a unit to debuff another means you have to use a turn AND place yourself in a vulnerable position to do so.

If you have delved in to PvP with Fates, the josephine build the most over-powered yet and this is why -breaker skills are banned when in conjunction with each other and limited. Remember, this is about balance, not necessarily keeping track of a minor number (just a side note, its not just tomebreaker, its all -breaker skills).

Logbooks are banned so that point is moot. With galeforce, you don't use it independently and that is the point. When used in conjunction with pure offence skills, it is crazy OP. Even with just the 'bare minimum', it can still pass off as being really powerful. Banning certain skills limits a lot of gameplay and strategies and also brings what smogon did wrong in to question. When the OP skills are removes, other skills become the staple OP skills and will be used instead which means we would just end up using these boring characters with boring skills.

With boots, the whole idea of this is to create a file purely for PvP. This means that your units will need to be created and done before you actually get around to training them and the like. Just like pokemon, you need to plan the items and the pokemon before you use them.

My issue with your rules is that it does not quite remove the problematic OP teams that are around and while tries to, just limits gameplay options while still allowing a lot of teams to slip through the cracks.

That being said, I am glad you have taken the time to consider the rules and agree that the rules are a bit too specific and require working around. I just find that with this particular game that we have been given, it is necessary to do this otherwise we have the same thing over and over.

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I have my first pvp team nearly complete, so is there anyone in europe/australia who would want to try these rules in the next two days?

Chromagna, how far are you?

On a side note: I aquired a second pair of boots in revelations

by completing the Mikoto mission without being spotted

. Now I have five unused pairs of boots in my inventory^^

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First off, the rules are set in place for a reason. This is to make gameplay fair and that was the intent the whole time. The rules are actually only minor in the grand scheme of things. For staves, I don't think they should be banned. Using a unit to debuff another means you have to use a turn AND place yourself in a vulnerable position to do so.

If you have delved in to PvP with Fates, the josephine build the most over-powered yet and this is why -breaker skills are banned when in conjunction with each other and limited. Remember, this is about balance, not necessarily keeping track of a minor number (just a side note, its not just tomebreaker, its all -breaker skills).

Logbooks are banned so that point is moot. With galeforce, you don't use it independently and that is the point. When used in conjunction with pure offence skills, it is crazy OP. Even with just the 'bare minimum', it can still pass off as being really powerful. Banning certain skills limits a lot of gameplay and strategies and also brings what smogon did wrong in to question. When the OP skills are removes, other skills become the staple OP skills and will be used instead which means we would just end up using these boring characters with boring skills.

With boots, the whole idea of this is to create a file purely for PvP. This means that your units will need to be created and done before you actually get around to training them and the like. Just like pokemon, you need to plan the items and the pokemon before you use them.

My issue with your rules is that it does not quite remove the problematic OP teams that are around and while tries to, just limits gameplay options while still allowing a lot of teams to slip through the cracks.

That being said, I am glad you have taken the time to consider the rules and agree that the rules are a bit too specific and require working around. I just find that with this particular game that we have been given, it is necessary to do this otherwise we have the same thing over and over.

For the most part, I tried hard not to directly address op teams because in doing so, I would be basically trying to undo the meta. When I mention meta, I say this because it's going to just change and then the rules related to the old meta are then outdated. It'll require constant maintenance (hence why the arbitrary numbers in these rules is ending up a temporary bandaid). I tried to put my rules such that they try to attack roots of issues.

For example, the reason why I suggested banning galeforce is precisely what you said (you were actually agreeing with me btw): there's too many permutations with this skill that makes it op. It's a low risk very high reward skill. Just because it exists doesn't mean you must be able to play with it (in pokemon, mega rayquazza exists, does this also mean we should use it?). And there isn't going to be a skill that's going to replace galeforce if it's banned. This mechanic is unique. I mean I get that replicate, nohrian trust, etc are also pretty strong, but 1/4 of the rules is related to galeforce in some way.. that alone should be a sign that we're trying way too hard to make this work.

Josephine build is -strong-, but I don't see how this build warrants breaker limitations. There's quite a lot of ways to drop avoidance/add hit rate. Again though, I am new, so I might've just been facing dopes the whole time, but the josephine units I run into normally isn't what stands out. Could you explain how this build normally works?

A small sidenote on boots: I really do like the ban on boots, but if we were using that pokemon analogy, messing up in pokemon rules means just throwing a TM and fixing a banned move, or at worst case you just spend another 1-2 hours breeding for a new one or even better you trade for a new pokemon. In fire emblem, banning boots when you already have a unit boosted means you must start the game all over (this is worst case, aka that unit was crucial to your team and only he/she could do whatever you were planning to do). This is at LEAST a 10+ hour investment. 10 hours if you're speeding very, very fast. It's a fundamental timesink cost, and the practicality of a rule like this being enforced in every pvper is only a dream.

Edited by yammers
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You have to remember that when comparing master ninja and heroes that master ninjas have higher speed by 3 (which makes a lot larger difference then at first glance) and have an S rank in a 1-2 ranged weapon. This is crazy stuff and I wouldn't really try comparing them because master ninja is just a much better class and is also more versatile. Hero doesn't do much in any particular role and that is its let down.

Nah, not really trying to compare them. Just saying that Heroes aren't as bad as the multiple weapon characters considering that they do have one stand out stat. Hence why'd I put around the middle of B at best, or maybe the top of C at worst.

Btw, besides Corrin, was there any discussion about certain characters, or is that gonna be until the ruleset is finalized?

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In my opinion the rules must be just an improvement of standard format, I played lot of matches online in Standard and the most dishonet things were the weapons and the skills such as Warp and similar! So I think we should just ban blue shield units, some skills and limit or ban forge, so we have an interesing format but not too much limited!

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Sorry if I'm missing something, but where would the Hosido/Nohr Noble classes fit on the tier list?

All-rounder or well-balanced classes like Hoshido Noble and Nohr Noble don't appear to do well in PvP compared to how well specialist classes do in PvP.

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