Why do people hate this game?

[Avk]

I've heard people complain about the release date, but that doesn't explain why sales didn't pick up the next week (and in fact dropped about 80%). Plus, having actually seen the Famitsu sales chart for that week...the game just sold poorly. Gundam Extreme VS Force sold almost three times what TMS did despite being released the same week, and the only other notable new release sold about as much as TMS despite being part of a much less popular franchise (namely, Medabots).

The Wii U's not actually doing as bad as most people claim, though it's certainly not selling units like the PS4 is (and Nintendo's real money powerhouse at the moment is the 3DS anyway, which means the Wii U not doing as good as they hoped isn't that harmful for them).

Aside what I mentioned above, here's a fun fact: the first Devil Summoner game, released on Christmas Day 20 years ago, sold ~265,000 copies in its first week, despite only having two more days in its sales week than TMS.

>Had several articles in Famitsu

>Appeared on Nintendo Direct several times

>Featured at E3 twice

>On top of normal advertising (ads, tv spots, etc.)

I'm honestly not sure what more they could have done to advertise the game in Japan, though I do agree that the marketing could have been better here in the West.

While FE and SMT fans not finding the game to their taste could explain at least some of the game's poor sales, that really doesn't explain why the game was unable to find wider market appeal.

Or people just don't find the idol pop in the game to their taste, even to the point of disliking/hating it? I don't hate it, and I like quite a few songs, but most of the idol pop in the game is just kind of bleh to me.

I realize after typing all of this that my answer is kind of messy... so my apologies.

On what console did this Gundam game release on ? I suspect PS4 (PS Vita after a quick google search). Somehow Vita games still do sell a fair amount, but I think the explaination is that Vita owners are a very hardcore niche and the games still releasing on it are also very focused on that audience, which guarantees some kind of minimal sales. Wii U on the other hand didn't really cultivate an audience for both JRPGs and "idols" games (a really weird qualifier for a game, but you get what I mean).

As for why did the sales didn't catch up, I'm not exactly certain about that, but I remember having read that most games tend to make the bulk of their sales during the launch week, #FE isn't one of the exceptions so it's perfectly normal. The game got a surge recently after the concert and from a sales Amazon did if I recall right, but nothing that will drastically change the fate of the game.

I'm not sure comparing #FE with a game released 20 years ago, both under really different conditions is really meaningful.

Nintendo Direct.. I think it was featured twice in japanese directs before release, and only one E3 before the japanese release with the Treehouse commenting, so it was probably more directed towards Western people, I can't really comment on the more usual type of advertising since I wasn't in Japan. I saw a few of them shared online, but I don't know how exactly how widely spread they were in real locations.

Also I didn't say that the game wasn't advertised, what I meant is that they didn't advertise it like they did for Splatoon, or likely Breath of the Wilds in the future, nor should they have (I think it's an indicator that they probably didn't have a lot of expectations for the game saleswise). I don't think I'm the only person to think that they could have advertise it better (Q&A 7), but even with more advertisements I highly doubt that would have affected the sales in a significant way, so I don't blame NCL or Nintendo of America on that subject.

To be honest, as much as I was really anticipating #FE, I absolutely didn't see the game do well in most scenarios, it's a niche game on a mismatched console which itself isn't doing incredibly well and I'm surprised that you'd think the game would do well in the wider marker. However, the game did resonate well with both reviewers and fans, so as a foundation for a new IP and building a RPG player base on Nintendo console (along with the Xenoblade series), I think the game did well.

For some people the game just comes across as way to Japanese. You can't get more typically Japanese then the ''just an average highscool'' setting and the idol scene is very controversial. The fire emblem stuff is also a bit hard to recognize, at least from what was shown and I hear the SMT crowd also find it hard to recognize their stuff. That's probably not the smartest way to do a crossover.

The big focus on Akenaia might also turn you off if you don't have any particular affection for that era. Most in the west likely do not have that affection.

In my particular case its the wrong kind of Japanese. I'm a huge fan of the over the top Japanese style of the Disgaea or ace attorney games but I tolerate high schools at best and the idol scene is a turn off for me. So I can make a pretty rational case that the game just isn't for me. I don't hate it but there's nothing I see that would make me exited either. I don't know SMT, don't have a fondness for Akenaia and I have more negative than positive feelings about highschools and J pop.

That's a fair opinion, I wish more people had reactions like yours instead of the ones that ended up producing a thread like this one.

A few things I can specify :

It's true that the FE side is more superficial, but when playing, you can still see the FE influence here and there, it's not really pronounced, but it's there nonetheless.

On the SMT side, you just need to see a battle to see the influence of SMT. But the game takes more on the Persona side than the SMT one.

The highschool setting is pretty much never mentioned, you know that a few protagonists are highschoolers and that's it.

About "idols" and "J-Pop", that's a superficial way to see it in my opinion, as I said earlier I see the game more about the turn based combat system and watching the development of the cast of characters, but if you really can't stand it, it's probably best to avoid the game indeed.

[Taka-kun]

Most people have I already added the common points, so the OP should have gotten the idea at least. But I can say that so far, if we filter all the bias from people that are either A) Not liking the concept since the beginning and B) Not liking the localization, the most common criticism I find so far is: "The story and characters are nothing new". Which I guess I can agree on but I feel that's having high expectations, thinking the game would deconstruct the genre or something.

[PuffPuff]

Only battle system and gameplay are what stands.

Have you actually played it yet though? There's a lot to love about this game besides just the battle system and gameplay.

I can't find anything else to love about except that I've stopped playing it after the first boss because of poor buisness decisions and having to get the Japanese version now to remedy everything that is already ruined in this game.

[Millyna]

I never hated the game in any wise. I am J-Pop fan but the industry is - at least I think so - not very realistic. But I like the game play and the diffeculty, even for noobs like me. The only problem I have is the fact that I consider the story to be very short and I believe that the sidequests could have been used as chapters too (with a bit more to do~).

[UNLEASH IT]

I was a little disappointed by the premise of the game at first, but after coming to terms with that, I realized that this game is very much Atlus playing to its strengths and you can see that especially in the battle system.

[Taka-kun]

Does anybody know if Atlus has a similar system in their other games? The last Atlus game I played before TMS was Persona 4 and I don't recall it having such an intricate system. I am much more interested in playing another Atlus game since TMS was so much fun.

[eclipse]

Does anybody know if Atlus has a similar system in their other games? The last Atlus game I played before TMS was Persona 4 and I don't recall it having such an intricate system. I am much more interested in playing another Atlus game since TMS was so much fun.

TMS has a lot of moving parts. What aspects of the gameplay did you like the most?

[Taka-kun]

TMS has a lot of moving parts. What aspects of the gameplay did you like the most?

I would say the battle system is definitely the most enjoyable part of the game, though most other aspects in the game (such as the character sidequests and flavor choices) amped up the enjoyment.

[eclipse]

I mean, the battle system has a lot of moving parts (weaknesses, skills, sessions, etc.). Was there any in particular that caught your fancy, or is it just how it all came together?

[Taka-kun]

I mean, the battle system has a lot of moving parts (weaknesses, skills, sessions, etc.). Was there any in particular that caught your fancy, or is it just how it all came together?

How it all come together really. Targeting weaknesses to trigger sessions, balancing skills to tackle regular and boss battles, switching party members to change turn order and abilities etc. Nothing particular, just... everything I guess.

[Magical Glace]

My only problem is the fact they ignore over half of the entire FE series, for no apparent reason at all...

Like, even with the Persona-like setting, there's plenty of potential to include characters from games besides FE1/11, 3/12 and 13, especially if Mirages were equippable and having different mirages of one class alters growth, for example, equipping a Lilina Mirage heavily favors your magic but lowers skill gains, while equipping Soren would be at the expanse of Luck instead.

I'll probably play the game eventually, but it's really hard for me to not be upset about this, since I don't like SD very much (it's fine, but it just doesn't do anything terribly special) and utterly loathe Awakening.

If there's a sequel that's more inclusive of other entries (which I doubt, given the poor sales in Japan), I'd play it in a heartbeat.

[Jave]

My only problem is the fact they ignore over half of the entire FE series, for no apparent reason at all...

There is a reason. A PLOT reason. The choosing of the FE characters was not random.

[Magical Glace]

There is a reason. A PLOT reason. The choosing of the FE characters was not random.

I don't mind spoilers, so if you would fully explain why they're willfully ignoring several games I'm all ears. I don't like ignoring Valencia/Jugdral/Elibe/Magvel/Tellius as a concept (Fates gets a pass due to being unreleased during a lot of this game's development), but depending on how good this reason is I may forgive it. Especially regarding Jugdral and Valencia, due to the fact they definitely take place in the same world as Marth's games and 13.

Put it in a spoiler tag of course, I may not care, but others will.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Glaceon Mage

[Water Mage]

My only problem is the fact they ignore over half of the entire FE series, for no apparent reason at all...

If it helps, Ilyana, Aimee from FE9 and 10, Cath from FE6 and Anna make cameos in this game.

These four appear as shopkeepers.

Also, other than some characters, there's very little of Awakening in this game.

Most of the content is from FE1/FE11 and FE3/FE12.

There are some weapons from Judgral, Elibe, Magvel and Tellius as well.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Water Mage

[Jave]

I don't mind spoilers, so if you would fully explain why they're willfully ignoring several games I'm all ears. I don't like ignoring Valencia/Jugdral/Elibe/Magvel/Tellius as a concept (Fates gets a pass due to being unreleased during a lot of this game's development), but depending on how good this reason is I may forgive it. Especially regarding Jugdral and Valencia, due to the fact they definitely take place in the same world as Marth's games and 13.

Put it in a spoiler tag of course, I may not care, but others will.

I'm not going to spoil the whole game in this thread, not even with tags. All I'm saying is that as you progress in the game, you start realizing why they wrote it the way they did, and how the plot connects to the Archaneia/Ylisse universe. If they would have picked characters from other universes, it simply wouldn't have worked.

[Magical Glace]

If it helps, Ilyana, Aimee from FE9 and 10, Cath from FE6 and Anna make cameos in this game.

These four appear as shopkeepers.

Also, other than some characters, there's very little of Awakening in this game.

Most of the content is from FE1/FE11 and FE3/FE12.

There are some weapons from Judgral, Elibe, Magvel and Tellius as well.

That's a little reassuring, but I still don't like the idea of excluding the characters of FE4-10 and 2 as mirages. From an outside viewer standpoint, it seems like FE1/3/11/12/13 favoritism.

I'm not going to spoil the whole game in this thread, not even with tags. All I'm saying is that as you progress in the game, you start realizing why they wrote it the way they did, and how the plot connects to the Archaneia/Ylisse universe. If they would have picked characters from other universes, it simply wouldn't have worked.

I'm sorry, then. Without knowing the reasoning, I can't forgive it. Especially regarding Jugdral and Valencia, since Awakening is about as far from FE1/3/11/12 as Jugdral is iirc (though in the other direction) and Gaiden takes between 1/11 and 3/12.

[shadowofchaos]

Well, favoritism for those worlds is kind of justified of those are the FE continents that make money and have recognition factor.

And that's not even going for plot reasons.

You sound like a spoiled child saying " without knowing the reason I can't forgive it."

"Guilty until proven innocent" mindset, much?

Edited July 26, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Jave]

I'm sorry, then. Without knowing the reasoning, I can't forgive it. Especially regarding Jugdral and Valencia, since Awakening is about as far from FE1/3/11/12 as Jugdral is iirc (though in the other direction) and Gaiden takes between 1/11 and 3/12.

Well, you don't have to apologize to me. I'M not the one missing out on a good game for a rather arbitrary reason.

You already know that the reasoning behind the choosing of the FE characters can be related to the plot. If you want to know why, though, that's your call.

[Taka-kun]

In the game, the Mirages don't play that much of a role anyway other than being supportive to their respective Masters. The story focuses on developing the human characters. Sure, you could have exchanged Cain for Kent but he would still just be a background character for Touma and his quest to become a superhero.

Like shadowofchaos said, the Mirages are probably only in there for recognition factors, to appeal for a broader audience and makes more sense from a business perspective. As a newcomer with Awakening, I had absolutely no idea who the other cameo characters were and I barely knew the FE12 Mirages because SF routinely mentions them.

In all aspects, TMS is a self-contained game. There is a minor plot reason for the prevalence of Akaneia/Ylisse characters but I would argue it doesn't matter at all. TMS is a story about Itsuki and co. coping with the importance of Performa and how it embodies the passion of dreams in the entertainment industry. It's an enjoyable game on its own without needing to pander too much to the fanbase of either FE or SMT.

[Jave]

In the game, the Mirages don't play that much of a role anyway other than being supportive to their respective Masters. The story focuses on developing the human characters. Sure, you could have exchanged Cain for Kent but he would still just be a background character for Touma and his quest to become a superhero.

Like shadowofchaos said, the Mirages are probably only in there for recognition factors, to appeal for a broader audience and makes more sense from a business perspective. As a newcomer with Awakening, I had absolutely no idea who the other cameo characters were and I barely knew the FE12 Mirages because SF routinely mentions them.

In all aspects, TMS is a self-contained game. There is a minor plot reason for the prevalence of Akaneia/Ylisse characters but I would argue it doesn't matter at all. TMS is a story about Itsuki and co. coping with the importance of Performa and how it embodies the passion of dreams in the entertainment industry. It's an enjoyable game on its own without needing to pander too much to the fanbase of either FE or SMT.

See, I can agree with this, but I also think that the people who complain about the whole "No characters outside of Archaneia/Ylisse" thing kind of miss the point about the game. It's clear the plot regarding the FE characters in the game was written with one universe in mind and I can see that Archaneia/Ylisse were originally chosen due to favoritism. I mean, they could have used All Elibe or All Tellius mirages and with minor tweaking the plot could have worked, but using a character from each universe to represent the seven mirages would have made the whole thing far too messy and a lot of plot points and connections would have been lost or not worked.

I can appreciate what the devs did with what they used, and I wish people would look past the surface of the game because, to be honest, I think it's kind of a silly reason to pass on this game (assuming there's nothing else preventing you from playing it).

[Avk]

My only problem is the fact they ignore over half of the entire FE series, for no apparent reason at all...

Like, even with the Persona-like setting, there's plenty of potential to include characters from games besides FE1/11, 3/12 and 13, especially if Mirages were equippable and having different mirages of one class alters growth, for example, equipping a Lilina Mirage heavily favors your magic but lowers skill gains, while equipping Soren would be at the expanse of Luck instead.

I'll probably play the game eventually, but it's really hard for me to not be upset about this, since I don't like SD very much (it's fine, but it just doesn't do anything terribly special) and utterly loathe Awakening.

If there's a sequel that's more inclusive of other entries (which I doubt, given the poor sales in Japan), I'd play it in a heartbeat.

This subject has already been brought up multiple times, there are reasons.

First, the characters are from very successful and recognizable games, the Akaneia series and Awakening.

Second, with the system they decided to do, "1 master, 1 mirage", they couldn't please anyone no matter what, even if they decided to put characters from other FE as enemies, or NPCs (well, they did that, and I thought it was a nice subtle nod), some people would still ask "why isn't my favorite character in the game/playable ?!".

There is also the plot, while not being the most important argument for me, still rely on the Akaneia universe, having all characters from this universe make the whole more coherent.

I'm not saying that they couldn't do something else, but they had to make choices, and it ended up fine in my opinion.

The first point I mentioned being obviously the most decisive, the others being just the result of that. For a starting point, I think that they made the right choice.

[eclipse]

That's a little reassuring, but I still don't like the idea of excluding the characters of FE4-10 and 2 as mirages. From an outside viewer standpoint, it seems like FE1/3/11/12/13 favoritism.I'm sorry, then. Without knowing the reasoning, I can't forgive it. Especially regarding Jugdral and Valencia, since Awakening is about as far from FE1/3/11/12 as Jugdral is iirc (though in the other direction) and Gaiden takes between 1/11 and 3/12.

If you're willing to deprive yourself of a really fun game, I won't stop you, even if I don't agree with your reasons.

How it all come together really. Targeting weaknesses to trigger sessions, balancing skills to tackle regular and boss battles, switching party members to change turn order and abilities etc. Nothing particular, just... everything I guess.

Sounds more like how everything flows together. Leveraging weakness is a lot of games, but off the top of my head, no game rewards it quite like TMS. The closest I can come up with is Tales of Zestiria - you'll need to switch based on what's going on, hitting weaknesses makes life a lot easier, and while the story/characters aren't the best, the battle system is a hell of a lot of fun. Downside is that it requires real-time button input, and it's not from Atlus.

The Dept. Heaven games are a bit hit-or-miss in this category. Riviera's idea of leveling was really bad, Yggdra Union had some pretty dumb forced moments, Knights in the Nightmare combined too many genres, and Gungnir's mechanics were meant for a game twice as long. Of these, I'd rate overall game flow as Yggdra Union > Riviera = Gungnir >> Knights in the Nightmare.

[Taka-kun]

Sounds more like how everything flows together. Leveraging weakness is a lot of games, but off the top of my head, no game rewards it quite like TMS. The closest I can come up with is Tales of Zestiria - you'll need to switch based on what's going on, hitting weaknesses makes life a lot easier, and while the story/characters aren't the best, the battle system is a hell of a lot of fun. Downside is that it requires real-time button input, and it's not from Atlus.

The Dept. Heaven games are a bit hit-or-miss in this category. Riviera's idea of leveling was really bad, Yggdra Union had some pretty dumb forced moments, Knights in the Nightmare combined too many genres, and Gungnir's mechanics were meant for a game twice as long. Of these, I'd rate overall game flow as Yggdra Union > Riviera = Gungnir >> Knights in the Nightmare.

Never knew Atlus had a game series called Dept. Heaven. Feels like one of their more obscure ones, in contrast to the sucess of Etrian Odyssey and Persona.

I must say it's strange the battle system has not been seen AFAIK in other Atlus games. Not even the previews of Persona 5 shows anything similar. Did they decide to have TMS as a springboard for future development? One can hope it might be spawn an Atlus series exclusively for Nintendo platforms.

[Harvey]

A lot of it boils down to assumptions about the game. Some didn't like the fact that the game doesn't have much in common with SMT, some don't like the whole Japanese pop culture thing, and some genuinely have a problem with Japan as a whole (the last ones usually get the boot, since SF has a "don't be a racist prick" policy). The story has some issues, and there's some minor UI/dungeon things that annoy me. However, the gameplay is solid, and there's mechanics from the SMT and FE sides (for example, the weapon triangle exists).

I would argue that this is more of a SMT game than an FE game. The only reason that the FE characters somehow manage to exist here is simply because some of the characters in FE are also suitable in SMT due to their personalities like Tharja.

While I haven't played the game and I can't get it since I can't get the Wii U(and that its too late for me to get one anyways) I can say that this game looks more of a SMT game than it is of a FE game. Because SMT games are a bit complex and have that hard difficulty unlike FE which now has casual mode and overshadows SMT.

To be honest, I simply hate its existence because it has absolutely nothing to do with FE at all except the FE characters. Even the mechanics that are loosely based on FE can also apply to SMT because again, SMT is a lot more complex than FE. And it doesn't even have that waifu mechanic that FE has been oddly known for.

Another reason why I hate it is that Atlus purposefully made it as a niche game that can't even outsell Path of Radiance or even Radiant Dawn to that matter. How is this a problem? Because it hurts the FE brand more than it hurts the SMT brand because now I'm a bit paranoid that Nintendo will not see FE as a major IP if these kind of moves are repeated over and over again because of they can't expand their IPs, then the IP is better off dead. I mean that's what happened to Chibi-Robo in the first place.

Even the game's setting looks more like SMT.

I haven't gotten into SMT but I looked at various footages and well...it certainly looked complex to me atleast.

I'm picturing Atlus reaction to the poor sales of the game and they're probably saying "You know what? Screw it, let's never make games based on Nintendo characters again!" Because the game didn't do well.

But that's just me and I know I'm the minority over here so why bother. After all, the game itself looks solid enough....just fails on the marketing aspect and giving the false image that its an FE spinoff.

[Sidereal Wraith]

I would argue that this is more of a SMT game than an FE game. The only reason that the FE characters somehow manage to exist here is simply because some of the characters in FE are also suitable in SMT due to their personalities like Tharja.

While I haven't played the game and I can't get it since I can't get the Wii U(and that its too late for me to get one anyways) I can say that this game looks more of a SMT game than it is of a FE game. Because SMT games are a bit complex and have that hard difficulty unlike FE which now has casual mode and overshadows SMT.

To be honest, I simply hate its existence because it has absolutely nothing to do with FE at all except the FE characters. Even the mechanics that are loosely based on FE can also apply to SMT because again, SMT is a lot more complex than FE. And it doesn't even have that waifu mechanic that FE has been oddly known for.

Another reason why I hate it is that Atlus purposefully made it as a niche game that can't even outsell Path of Radiance or even Radiant Dawn to that matter. How is this a problem? Because it hurts the FE brand more than it hurts the SMT brand because now I'm a bit paranoid that Nintendo will not see FE as a major IP if these kind of moves are repeated over and over again because of they can't expand their IPs, then the IP is better off dead. I mean that's what happened to Chibi-Robo in the first place.

Even the game's setting looks more like SMT.

I haven't gotten into SMT but I looked at various footages and well...it certainly looked complex to me atleast.

I'm picturing Atlus reaction to the poor sales of the game and they're probably saying "You know what? Screw it, let's never make games based on Nintendo characters again!" Because the game didn't do well.

But that's just me and I know I'm the minority over here so why bother. After all, the game itself looks solid enough....just fails on the marketing aspect and giving the false image that its an FE spinoff.

I think you're mixing up Persona with mainline SMT. I'd say that this game has a lot more in common with Persona rather then mainline SMT.

Here's the difference:

Persona 4 Golden

SMT IV: Apocalypse

Edited July 29, 2016 by Wraith