Sword masters Crit+30?

[Dinar87]

Do you prefer sword masters being extremely powerful like in FE6 or nerfed like in most FE games?

[The Geek]

It's kinda hard to say they were "nerfed" in the rest of the series when they only get the ridiculous Crit+30 in FE6. I prefer the Crit+10-15 that games like PoR, RD, and Fates give them.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

There definitely needs to be a reason to use them over mercenaries, who also tend to have high skill and above average speed, but can also use axes and have better defense.

See: SD Navarre

[Shadow Mir]

The only game I'd really call them nerfed was SD, and even there they still had something going for them.

[NekoKnight]

I like the +20 modifier Fates has for single weapon classes (Swordmaster has +10 crit and +10 avoid). Considering how many weapon choices you have in Fates within a single weapon type, you could stock your entire inventory without even getting a second weapon type.

Rather than increase Swordmaster's base crit bonus any further, they should give them unique swords with higher crit chance (or maybe just an improved Killing Edge that lacks the avoid penalty).

Edited July 13, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Magical Glace]

I like the +20 modifier Fates has for single weapon classes (Swordmaster has +10 crit and +10 avoid). Considering how many weapon choices you have in Fates within a single weapon type, you could stock your entire inventory without even getting a second weapon type.

Rather than increase Swordmaster's base crit bonus any further, they should give them unique swords with higher crit chance (or maybe just an improved Killing Edge that lacks the avoid penalty).

...Wo Dao.

Swordmasters were absurd in FE6 thanks to a couple factors (swords were among the best weapon types in that game due to their accuracy, Skill was important, generous Avoid formula and the Crit bonus), so I would say the +15 Crit in FE7/8 is best. They were a good class, but not quite as "cut above the rest" as the FE6 ones.

[Shin]

...Wo Dao.

Swordmasters were absurd in FE6 thanks to a couple factors (swords were among the best weapon types in that game due to their accuracy, Skill was important, generous Avoid formula and the Crit bonus), so I would say the +15 Crit in FE7/8 is best. They were a good class, but not quite as "cut above the rest" as the FE6 ones.

It also helped that they were statistically fairly sound, and by that I mean Rutger had good stats. Even if Guy had +30 crit, he'd still be fairly subpar after he'd eaten his Killing Edge.

[NekoKnight]

...Wo Dao.

Swordmasters were absurd in FE6 thanks to a couple factors (swords were among the best weapon types in that game due to their accuracy, Skill was important, generous Avoid formula and the Crit bonus), so I would say the +15 Crit in FE7/8 is best. They were a good class, but not quite as "cut above the rest" as the FE6 ones.

I'm aware, I'm just commenting on what Fates gave Swordmasters because it's the most recent game.

[Dinar87]

Would +30 Crit be balanced if there were classes that had + 30 Luck or +30 Avo so everyone's powerful?

On second thoughts, I'd like the units' stats to be the determining factors so how about the usual Crit +15?

Edited July 13, 2016 by Dinar87

[Cornguy]

I always wanted to see a +20 crit bonus. 30 was too high, but 15 was too low.

Though the real nerf had always been the trade-off of playable swordmasters from FE6 to 7. Rutger, obviously good, Fir, good if you have time to raise her, and Karel, pretty good if you have an extra unit slot. Then we end up with Guy, usable with issues, Karel, always outclassed by Harken, and Karla, a joke.

[Dinar87]

I always wanted to see a +20 crit bonus. 30 was too high, but 15 was too low.

Though the real nerf had always been the trade-off of playable swordmasters from FE6 to 7. Rutger, obviously good, Fir, good if you have time to raise her, and Karel, pretty good if you have an extra unit slot. Then we end up with Guy, usable with issues, Karel, always outclassed by Harken, and Karla, a joke.

What's wrong with guy?

[Glitchy]

I don't mind the insane crit bonus in FE6, there needs to be at least some reason to use Swordmasters over Heroes, but as Cornguy said, I think 20% would be a bit more balanced than 15%, which is too low, and 30% which is a bit too insane.

[Dinar87]

I don't mind the insane crit bonus in FE6, there needs to be at least some reason to use Swordmasters over Heroes, but as Cornguy said, I think 20% would be a bit more balanced than 15%, which is too low, and 30% which is a bit too insane.

Again, what about having certain classes balance out others? For every class that gains +20 Crit there could be classes that gain +20 luck as well. Of course to make sure it isn't totally useless some classes would gain things like +20 Hit or nothing at all.

[The Geek]

Again, what about having certain classes balance out others? For every class that gains +20 Crit there could be classes that gain +20 luck as well. Of course to make sure it isn't totally useless some classes would gain things like +20 Hit or nothing at all.

+20 Luck would be ridiculous as that would raise their Avoid by 20 as well.

[Glitchy]

Again, what about having certain classes balance out others? For every class that gains +20 Crit there could be classes that gain +20 luck as well. Of course to make sure it isn't totally useless some classes would gain things like +20 Hit or nothing at all.

I don't know, +20 Luck or +20 Hit sounds kind of worthless when compared to +20% crit. I think a good way to balance it out is to just give crit bonuses to classes that are locked to one weapon, like Fates did, like Swordmasters, Halberdiers/Spear Masters, Berserkers and Snipers, because otherwise they're at a pretty huge disadvantage. For example, you can use a Hero for 1-2 range access, or you can use a Swordmaster for the crit boost.

[Shadow Mir]

Again, what about having certain classes balance out others? For every class that gains +20 Crit there could be classes that gain +20 luck as well. Of course to make sure it isn't totally useless some classes would gain things like +20 Hit or nothing at all.

...Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with Glitchy - this would be horribly lopsided.

[Dinar87]

I don't know, +20 Luck or +20 Hit sounds kind of worthless when compared to +20% crit. I think a good way to balance it out is to just give crit bonuses to classes that are locked to one weapon, like Fates did, like Swordmasters, Halberdiers/Spear Masters, Berserkers and Snipers, because otherwise they're at a pretty huge disadvantage. For example, you can use a Hero for 1-2 range access, or you can use a Swordmaster for the crit boost.

Interesting....so crit bonuses should've be given to those who can only wield one type of weapon...thanks for the info!

[Cornguy]

What's wrong with guy?

He isn't unusable by any means, but he has a high capacity to be RNG screwed in strength, and his low con means he'll be weighed down by almost any sword. Honestly, I'd rather him have 25% strength growth, but start with 8 strength, than 30% and 6.

Had to reread your post, I thought you were saying "What's wrong with this guy?", and I was worried haha.

[henrymidfields]

I actually wouldn't mind going back to that 30% critical bonus again for all single-locked, because that's what made Swordmasters useful and unique, and also because that is one way your unit's Luck stat becomes an actual consideration (like in FE6), unlike how it is usually the Dump Stat in most other games, barring some uncommon exceptions like Knoll in Sacred Stones, or Harold in Fates.

Edited July 14, 2016 by henrymidfields

[Shadow Mir]

I actually wouldn't mind going back to that 30% critical bonus again for all single-locked, because that's what made Swordmasters useful and unique, and also because that is one way your unit's Luck stat becomes an actual consideration (like in FE6), unlike how it is usually the Dump Stat in most other games, barring some uncommon exceptions like Knoll in Sacred Stones, or Harold in Fates.

>Luck

>Dump Stat

That's a bad meme that needs to go the way of the dinosaurs. Granted, in general, it's not all that important since most enemy units tend to not have crit on your units, but then there's games like Radiant Dawn, where enhanced crit enemy units are everywhere (this is ESPECIALLY true in part 4).

Edited July 14, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[henrymidfields]

>Luck

>Dump Stat

That's a bad meme that needs to go the way of the dinosaurs. Granted, in general, it's not all that important since most enemy units tend to not have crit on your units, but then there's games like Radiant Dawn, where enhanced crit enemy units are everywhere (this is ESPECIALLY true in part 4).

Is that through skills, particularly enemy-only ones? I haven't played that game, so really, I'm just quoting TV Tropes and the games that I've played (Binding Blade, Sacred Stones, Shadow Dragon, Awakening, and currently Fates Conquest) here.

[Shadow Mir]

Is that through skills, particularly enemy-only ones? I haven't played that game, so really, I'm just quoting TV Tropes and the games that I've played (Binding Blade, Sacred Stones, Shadow Dragon, Awakening, and currently Fates Conquest) here.

Nope - just a good deal of enhanced crit classes and enhanced crit weapons. Well, that, and enemies aren't jokes stat wise either. Part 4 in particular throws Swordmasters with +20(!!!) crit at you. If there was ever a dump stat in FE, it'd be Skill - it's generally easier to make up for lacking hit than lacking crit evade.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Dinar87]

IGNORE IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT SOME IDIOT'S POTENTIAL GAME!

In my game here's how the stats would work...

Hp-the character's vitality. Once this reaches zero the character dies and stays dead.

Strength-determines your physical attack damage. Each point of strength=1 more point of damage dealt during physical attacks.

Magic-same as strength but for magical attacks.

Skill-determines how accurate you are and the rate of critical hits. Accuracy=(skill pointsx2) +weapon hit rate. Critical
rate=skill points+skills+weapon effects.

Speed-governs evasion and how many attacks you can deal to enemies. Evasion=speed x2. Number of attacks=every 5 points higher than the enemies' speed stats= one extra attack.

Luck-each point decreases the likelihood of getting critical attacked. Dodge=luck points+ skills + weapon effects.

Defense-controls how much damage you take from physical attacks. Each point of defense= more point less of damage taken from physical attacks.

Resistance-same as defense but for magical attacks.

Potential-determines how much this character is affected by buffs and healing.

Endurance-determines how much this character is affected by debuffs and dark staff attacks.

Bare in mind that stat caps have the potential to reach 50 at most by the time characters' get to third tier.


Given this information...how would you change things to have better balance? Would skills like crit+30 be a good idea with these kinds of mechanics or would it be horribly op?

Edited July 14, 2016 by Dinar87

[NekoKnight]

IGNORE IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT SOME IDIOT'S POTENTIAL GAME!

In my game here's how the stats would work...

Hp-the character's vitality. Once this reaches zero the character dies and stays dead.

Strength-determines your physical attack damage. Each point of strength=1 more point of damage dealt during physical attacks.

Magic-same as strength but for magical attacks.

Skill-determines how accurate you are and the rate of critical hits. Accuracy=(skill pointsx2) +weapon hit rate. Critical

rate=skill points+skills+weapon effects.

Speed-governs evasion and how many attacks you can deal to enemies. Evasion=speed x2. Number of attacks=every 5 points higher than the enemies' speed stats= one extra attack.

Luck-each point decreases the likelihood of getting critical attacked. Dodge=luck points+ skills + weapon effects.

Defense-controls how much damage you take from physical attacks. Each point of defense= more point less of damage taken from physical attacks.

Resistance-same as defense but for magical attacks.

Potential-determines how much this character is affected by buffs and healing.

Endurance-determines how much this character is affected by debuffs and dark staff attacks.

Bare in mind that stat caps have the potential to reach 50 at most by the time characters' get to third tier.

Given this information...how would you change things to have better balance? Would skills like crit+30 be a good idea with these kinds of mechanics or would it be horribly op?

While I like how straightforward the stats are, you'd have to pay close attention to the balance of stats on the characters to not make it imbalanced. The critical hit formula means you could have a 50% critical hit rating before weapons, skills or class bonuses are even factored in, which would require a LOT of luck to offset.

Some other thoughts:

-"Evasion" and "Dodge" should be called Avoid and Critical Avoid. It only makes sense when we have Hit and Critical Hit, right?

-I like the chance to hit more than twice if your speed is high enough.

-3rd tiers....no thanks.

[Dinar87]

While I like how straightforward the stats are, you'd have to pay close attention to the balance of stats on the characters to not make it imbalanced. The critical hit formula means you could have a 50% critical hit rating before weapons, skills or class bonuses are even factored in, which would require a LOT of luck to offset.

Some other thoughts:

-"Evasion" and "Dodge" should be called Avoid and Critical Avoid. It only makes sense when we have Hit and Critical Hit, right?

-I like the chance to hit more than twice if your speed is high enough.

-3rd tiers....no thanks.

Don't worry about that potential 50%Crit because a lot of classes would also have stats like 40-50luck to balance it out. Not only that, but while sword masters would gain a lofty +20Crit on 3rd tier other classes would gain things like +40Crit Evade so basically, the sword master's full potential is only in effect on a number of classes. This is to stop them from being the best class in the game. Of course, some classes will have glaring flaws such as maybe a max luck stat of 20 but they'd be rather bulky to balance it out. In addition, the 3rd tier sword master would only have a strength cap of 30...when other classes have a defence cap of 50 (like 3rd tier generals). As such, while the sword master would get lots of attacks due to his 45 speed cap, against high defence enemies, he'd be rather useless. Better for taking out warriors and stuff.

​Got it. Thanks.

Cool.

​What's wrong with third tiers? Do you just prefer more seperate classes overall?

​PS: If you still care about this, here's the max stats a 3rd tier sword master would have.

HP-80 (Max in the game is 120)

STRENGTH-30

​MAGIC-15

SKILL-50

​SPEED-45

LUCK-30

​DEFENCE-30

​RESISTANCE-20

​...I'll leave potential and endurance for now. Basically the sword master's strengths are insanely high crit chance, accuracy and evasion but their weaknesses are that they're very frail and are very susceptible to crits themselves.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Dinar87