Worst GBA FE Chapter

[Mmicb0b]

I am not Sure it's either Rebellion Of Ostia, Hero of the Western Isles, Retaking the Capital from FE6(I strangely didn't find Chapter 14 to be that frustrating) none from FE7 but the majority of the maps in that game are SOOO BORING, from FE8 Oh THAT'S EASY THE EMPIRE'S REACH(Joshua is a PAIN to recruit) OR DISTANT BLADE AKA THE SOLE REASON Y I FIND FE8 THAT F--KING LEVEL ALONE

Edited August 26, 2016 by Mmicb0b

[Shadow Mir]

WRT Unbroken Heart: while it may be boring, I'd rather that than a map like Arcadia that is so awful that it has no redeeming factors whatsoever. I do agree that Ephraim fails miserably at picking out good weapons, however.

I agree that Ephraim sucks at picking weapons, Reginleif is clearly the best weapon they have, but that only has 45 uses and unlike Eirika's Rapier it is impossible to get another Reginleif, Unfulfilled Heart is too easy unless you plan to challenge Vaida, but why would you challenge Vaida when you can recruit her 3 chapters later if she lives (and the fact that she wrecks all your units with that Spear she has)

I refuse to think of Leygance as a good boss when Dieck can wreck him with an Armorslayer, and if you broke the one you got in Chapter 2 now, Oujay brings another one. I don't get why people hate the FE6 Gaiden chapters so much, I like Infernal Element (Like Night of Farewells), Pinnacle of Light (Arrows), Spear of Ice (Walls) and Silencing Darkness (Traps), I haven't actually played The Bow of the Winds [The one you mentioned being idiotic] (Not to mention Battle in Bulgar and Silver Wolf, haven't played those either)

I actually enjoyed Truth of the Legend, not as much as Neverending Dream, but almost, IDK why, maybe I just like Endgame maps (The map where you fight Idoun doesn't count as a separate chapter than the one where you fight Yahn for me)

On the Thany/Shanna vs. Tate vs. Miledy discussion I would say Tate is in general better than Thany (Thany suffers a lot more from the Pegasus Knight Strength weakness than Tate does, Tate has overall better bases and better stats than Thany, the only things Thany have over Tate are more levels (by like 7 or something like that) and earlier join time) but if I had to pick one flyer, I'd wait until Chapter 13 for Miledy, every time (Sorry Yuno, sorry Zeiss, but Miledy 2 gud)

My problem with FE6's gaidens is that after a certain point, some of them have gimmicks that are really fucking annoying (Infernal Element, anyone? Dealing with disappearing bridges was bad enough in Night of Farewells, and this map somehow manages to be EVEN WORSE).

Edited August 26, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Gradivus.]

(Infernal Element, anyone? Dealing with disappearing bridges was bad enough in Night of Farewells, and this map somehow manages to be EVEN WORSE).

I found Infernal Element a lot more tolerable than NoF because it's less long and repetitive and the gimmick at least makes you push forward at a reasonable pace (and it isn't restrictive at that, you have 12 or so turns to reach the part below the throne area unimpeded by the water).

Arcadia is also totally playable and the complaints about getting ambushed from behind the FoW are overblown. Bring one thief and give them a torch while using the treasure resetting trick to get the items and you'll be fine.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Gradivus.

[Robert Stewart]

Arcadia is also totally playable and the complaints about getting ambushed from behind the FoW are overblown. Bring one thief and give them a torch while using the treasure resetting trick to get the items and you'll be fine.

I think I've heard some reference to this before, but I don't think I've ever heard exactly what this entails. Could you explain it to me?

[Gradivus.]

The desert item trick guarantees that any unit will pick up the hidden treasure when stepping on the right tiles (instead of having a 9% chance for non-Thieves). You usually want to pick up the treasure with mages or fliers since they're more mobile in the sand, so you use this trick to ensure that the RNG rolls the right number to collect it:

- Reset the game (via Ctrl + R or the ingame alternative that I don't recall)

- Continue via resume chapter

- View the stat page of the unit who will go for the treasure

- Go back to the map, have them wait on the treasure tile immediately

-> 100% pickup chance

Repeat until you got all the treasure.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Gradivus.

[Weeping Dalek (MK)]

I found Infernal Element a lot more tolerable than NoF because it's less long and repetitive and the gimmick at least makes you push forward at a reasonable pace (and it isn't restrictive at that, you have 12 or so turns to reach the part below the throne area unimpeded by the water).

Arcadia is also totally playable and the complaints about getting ambushed from behind the FoW are overblown. Bring one thief and give them a torch while using the treasure resetting trick to get the items and you'll be fine.

I liked Infernal Element and Night of Farewells, I don't understand the hate they get, just like a lot of Gaiden maps in FE6 and some other chapters in FE7 (Battle Before Dawn springs to mind in being highly overhated imo, I don't love it, but it's a really good fog map)

WRT Unbroken Heart: while it may be boring, I'd rather that than a map like Arcadia that is so awful that it has no redeeming factors whatsoever. I do agree that Ephraim fails miserably at picking out good weapons, however.

My problem with FE6's gaidens is that after a certain point, some of them have gimmicks that are really fucking annoying (Infernal Element, anyone? Dealing with disappearing bridges was bad enough in Night of Farewells, and this map somehow manages to be EVEN WORSE).

I really like Unbroken Heart, I like indoor castle maps (especially where you're attacking the castle, example: Retaking the Capital, Whereabouts Unknown and Ruled by Madness)

I like the gimmicks in FE6's Gaiden chapters, Blazing Sword and Axe of Lightning are kinda boring, but I liked Night of Farewells and Infernal Element (they didn't make Infernal Element worse than Night of Farewells for you, they made Night of Farewells better because they made Infernal Element before Night of Farewells), and the arrows on Pinnacle of Light don't bug me, the only one I might agree on is Bow of Winds (once I've actually played it) but Infernal Element, Pinnacle of Light and Bow of Winds are the ones I hear people complaining about and the 2 out of those I've played I liked (Infernal Element was a heckuva lot better than flipping Arcadia)

I am not Sure it's either Rebellion Of Ostia, Hero of the Western Isles, Retaking the Capital from FE6(I strangely didn't find Chapter 14 to be that frustrating) none from FE7 but the majority of the maps in that game are SOOO BORING, from FE8 Oh THAT'S EASY THE EMPIRE'S REACH(Joshua is a PAIN to recruit) OR DISTANT BLADE AKA THE SOLE REASON Y I FIND FE8 THAT F--KING LEVEL ALONE

I like Retaking the Capital, Rebellion at Ostia and Hero of the Western Isles are tolerable (aside from Hero of the Western Isles always messing up when I go to seize it for whatever reason)

I think I've heard some reference to this before, but I don't think I've ever heard exactly what this entails. Could you explain it to me?

The desert item trick guarantees that any unit will pick up the hidden treasure when stepping on the right tiles (instead of having a 9% chance for non-Thieves). You usually want to pick up the treasure with mages or fliers since they're more mobile in the sand, so you use this trick to ensure that the RNG rolls the right number to collect it:

- Reset the game (via Ctrl + R or the ingame alternative that I don't recall)

- Continue via resume chapter

- View the stat page of the unit who will go for the treasure

- Go back to the map, have them wait on the treasure tile immediately

-> 100% pickup chance

Repeat until you got all the treasure.

You can look at any characters stat page for it to work (also, my emulator is on a phone, so what I do for the reset is open up the emulator menu and select reset)

[Shadow Mir]

I liked Infernal Element and Night of Farewells, I don't understand the hate they get, just like a lot of Gaiden maps in FE6 and some other chapters in FE7 (Battle Before Dawn springs to mind in being highly overhated imo, I don't love it, but it's a really good fog map)

I really like Unbroken Heart, I like indoor castle maps (especially where you're attacking the castle, example: Retaking the Capital, Whereabouts Unknown and Ruled by Madness)

I like the gimmicks in FE6's Gaiden chapters, Blazing Sword and Axe of Lightning are kinda boring, but I liked Night of Farewells and Infernal Element (they didn't make Infernal Element worse than Night of Farewells for you, they made Night of Farewells better because they made Infernal Element before Night of Farewells), and the arrows on Pinnacle of Light don't bug me, the only one I might agree on is Bow of Winds (once I've actually played it) but Infernal Element, Pinnacle of Light and Bow of Winds are the ones I hear people complaining about and the 2 out of those I've played I liked (Infernal Element was a heckuva lot better than flipping Arcadia)

I don't know how you could see stuff like BBD as overhated - if it's possible to lose without the player being able to do jack to prevent it, chances are it's poorly designed. Same deal for Pinnacle of Light - the arrows of light are random, and they can easily kill a unit if I'm not lucky, which is really annoying. While Blazing Sword's fire traps are the same thing on paper, at least it's obvious where not to stand to avoid them.

I found Infernal Element a lot more tolerable than NoF because it's less long and repetitive and the gimmick at least makes you push forward at a reasonable pace (and it isn't restrictive at that, you have 12 or so turns to reach the part below the throne area unimpeded by the water).

Arcadia is also totally playable and the complaints about getting ambushed from behind the FoW are overblown. Bring one thief and give them a torch while using the treasure resetting trick to get the items and you'll be fine.

Far as I'm concerned, what kills Arcadia's chance of being a decent map is that it suffers from Battle Before Dawn-itis (read: It encourages one style of play at first, but forces another style of play that's the exact opposite of said playstyle). It also ain't any fun whatsoever. Infernal Element would be more tolerable but for the two Bolting sages that practically have overlapping ranges. Edited August 27, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Weeping Dalek (MK)]

I don't know how you could see stuff like BBD as overhated - if it's possible to lose without the player being able to do jack to prevent it, chances are it's poorly designed. Same deal for Pinnacle of Light - the arrows of light are random, and they can easily kill a unit if I'm not lucky, which is really annoying. While Blazing Sword's fire traps are the same thing on paper, at least it's obvious where not to stand to avoid them.

Far as I'm concerned, what kills Arcadia's chance of being a decent map is that it suffers from Battle Before Dawn-itis (read: It encourages one style of play at first, but forces another style of play that's the exact opposite of said playstyle). It also ain't any fun whatsoever. Infernal Element would be more tolerable but for the two Bolting sages that practically have overlapping ranges.

It's highly unlikely that Zephiel will die as Jaffar will pull most of the enemy towards him and away from Zephiel, Pinnacle of Light's arrows only do 10 damage (they do have Crit chance) but by that point in the game, most of your units should be able to take 10 even if they get hit every turn, as long as you heal, and they shouldn't have too much crit chance, Ohtz and the Bolting Sage next to him are annoying, but they can be tanked

[Shadow Mir]

It's highly unlikely that Zephiel will die as Jaffar will pull most of the enemy towards him and away from Zephiel, Pinnacle of Light's arrows only do 10 damage (they do have Crit chance) but by that point in the game, most of your units should be able to take 10 even if they get hit every turn, as long as you heal, and they shouldn't have too much crit chance, Ohtz and the Bolting Sage next to him are annoying, but they can be tanked

So what I'm getting from this is that you either fail to grasp or outright ignore that people don't like maps like Battle Before Dawn that are heavily luck-based. Needing slightly more parts luck than skill is one thing, but BBD on hard mode is practically like trying to go against a Swagplay team in Pokemon. And that's terrible.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Gradivus.]

Infernal Element would be more tolerable but for the two Bolting sages that practically have overlapping ranges.

It would inherently be more tolerable if you removed the two bolting tomes. Every map becomes "more tolerable" if you remove challenging areas, so technically you're right. The Bolting Sages can be approached without any real risk though; the key to this is strategy. Units with 8 movement can be in range of the generic bolting sage while not being within the boss' range, whoever takes the Bolting on EP gets healed next turn and they can team up to kill the generic Sage (who won't retaliate since he has Bolting equipped). Then, you can take on the boss pretty safely. If you want to, you can also cheese it by stalling one of the Bolting tomes out. It's perfectly playable, and isn't drawn out and repetitive like NoF is, so what exactly is your point? You're probably overestimating the threat those Boltings pose.

Far as I'm concerned, what kills Arcadia's chance of being a decent map is that it suffers from Battle Before Dawn-itis (read: It encourages one style of play at first, but forces another style of play that's the exact opposite of said playstyle). It also ain't any fun whatsoever.

What do you mean by this?

Regarding the "it also ain't any fun whatsoever" part, that's totally subjective and it isn't fair to expect every single person to feel that way, especially when you haven't brought up a real point about why Arcadia is the worst thing ever (other than some mumble chumble about it being Desert and FoW, both of which are far from inherently making chapters unfun).

Edited August 28, 2016 by Gradivus.

[Shadow Mir]

What do you mean by this?

Regarding the "it also ain't any fun whatsoever" part, that's totally subjective and it isn't fair to expect every single person to feel that way, especially when you haven't brought up a real point about why Arcadia is the worst thing ever (other than some mumble chumble about it being Desert and FoW, both of which are far from inherently making chapters unfun).

Simple - the desert and fog WOULD encourage careful play, but the time limit throws a wrench in that by making it close to, if not impossible to approach the chapter with the caution that the situation requires.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Gradivus.]

That's not enforcing two playstyles that are the exact opposite though, just encouraging a combination of a careful playstyle and and effective use of your offense. It's a difficult chapter comparatively, and I can see it being annoying, but the turn limit is super lenient, even if the map would arguably be better had it not existed. It's perfectly possible to approach the map carefully enough while completing in 25 turns. Looking at the map, it takes 6-8 turns to get even the least mobile units to the area with the Mercenaries, then you fight them off while slowly making your way to the boss (another 6-8 turns since there's a land path). While your bosskillers defeat the boss (should take around 3-4 turns depending on your team), you can send a division down to get the warp staff and take on the wyvern riders if you haven't done so yet. Counting all this together, you have 20 turns when taking on the map slowly, in the unlikely scenario that no fliers are used (you even get Miledy right before the map and she's really good here). With fliers, you're closer to 10-15 turns at a natural pace. Unless you full-on turtle and take on all the bandits head-on and don't field any fliers (which no one would do while knowing of the time limit), there should be no risk of missing the gaiden. You're way overblowing whatever complaints the gaiden requirement warrants (and even keeping Sophia alive isn't hard, she has 5 mov in the desert and with Astol you can see any enemies that may ambush her otherwise).

You can also use a Torch on a Thief to anticipate enemies behind the FoW. That at most is the caution you need while scouting, and for the rest of the chapter where it's just fighting goons, regular Thief vision is enough.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Gradivus.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I refuse to think of Leygance as a good boss when Dieck can wreck him with an Armorslayer, and if you broke the one you got in Chapter 2 now, Oujay brings another one.

Unlike a certain more plot-important FE6 boss general, Leygance at least had sense to have WTA against his bane, and enough speed to avoid doubles from most who would use it (even Rutger has some trouble, he needs to gain 4 points of speed to do it on NM... though only 3 on HM apparently, ha). As far as Dieck goes... looking up some numbers and assuming average stats... neither will double the other (Dieck needs to be Level 15/19 to do so depending on mode). Leygance will 2HKO Dieck on NM until around Level 12-13, and on HM period, while Dieck 2HKOs him back (though it's low, so regen may change this) with about 50 hit. Not "best boss ever" but he can definitely be a bit of a frustrating wall sometimes with that evade and decent damage, and certainly was a major step up over all previous bosses (Wagner was okay), so he stood out to me. Granted, he's followed by a bunch of other competent midgame bosses too.

I actually enjoyed Truth of the Legend, not as much as Neverending Dream, but almost, IDK why, maybe I just like Endgame maps (The map where you fight Idoun doesn't count as a separate chapter than the one where you fight Yahn for me)

There are things to like about Truth of the Legend. I really want to like it! There's neat plot stuff going on during it, for sure. But taking on 1-2 manaketes at a time just isn't scary; the only remote threat on the map is getting someone with low durability like a staff user ganked by a reinforcement you don't know about. And Jahn himself is embarrassingly underwhelming, he deserved better than to be an immobile range 1 boss with a gaggle of weaknesses. Even setting aside challenge concerns, you're just fighting the same one enemy type over and over with near identical stats; it's repetitive.

[Shadow Mir]

That's not enforcing two playstyles that are the exact opposite though, just encouraging a combination of a careful playstyle and and effective use of your offense. It's a difficult chapter comparatively, and I can see it being annoying, but the turn limit is super lenient, even if the map would arguably be better had it not existed. It's perfectly possible to approach the map carefully enough while completing in 25 turns. Looking at the map, it takes 6-8 turns to get even the least mobile units to the area with the Mercenaries, then you fight them off while slowly making your way to the boss (another 6-8 turns since there's a land path). While your bosskillers defeat the boss (should take around 3-4 turns depending on your team), you can send a division down to get the warp staff and take on the wyvern riders if you haven't done so yet. Counting all this together, you have 20 turns when taking on the map slowly, in the unlikely scenario that no fliers are used (you even get Miledy right before the map and she's really good here). With fliers, you're closer to 10-15 turns at a natural pace. Unless you full-on turtle and take on all the bandits head-on and don't field any fliers (which no one would do while knowing of the time limit), there should be no risk of missing the gaiden. You're way overblowing whatever complaints the gaiden requirement warrants (and even keeping Sophia alive isn't hard, she has 5 mov in the desert and with Astol you can see any enemies that may ambush her otherwise).

You can also use a Torch on a Thief to anticipate enemies behind the FoW. That at most is the caution you need while scouting, and for the rest of the chapter where it's just fighting goons, regular Thief vision is enough.

The desert and fog were but only two of the problems - the status staves are also aggravating factors that I shouldn't have to deal with when I'm already knee deep in BS, and there are reinforcements (to be fair, though, they're axe users, and are thus mostly no threat). And that's saying nothing of having TWO deadweights forced on my team. Also, if you think I'm overblowing my complaints, I can just as easily say you're selling them short.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Gradivus.]

The desert and fog were but only two of the problems -

and there are reinforcements (to be fair, though, they're axe users, and are thus mostly no threat).

when I'm already knee deep in BS

The desert impedes the enemy reinforcements to the point where they're unlikely to reach you, slows down the Mercenaries and put your fliers and magic users at an advantage. There are only 3 mages that come charged at you from the start, and the Wyverns won't move unless pulled (or until you're close to the castle, in the case of the SE group), so the desert terrain reducing mov on most of your units is only mildly annoying. Also, as said before, the FoW is mostly manageable with Thief vision or Thief + Torch vision.

the status staves are also aggravating factors

Also, 2/3 (in fact, I think there's only one Silence and one Sleep, idr) of the status staves are silence and thus affect a small minority of your units (and won't even try to if you take away their staves before the EP) and the sleep staff can be coped with by rescuing the units who got targeted by it so they can keep up, getting status staffed for the first 5-6 turns isn't a big deal anyway, that's before you even get to the combat-heavy part of this map in a casual playthrough; getting status staffed by non-Berserk in an area where the only thing you have to do is move is not very harmful.

And if you think I'm overblowing my complaints, I can just as easily say you're selling them short.

I feel I've sufficiently countered your claims that A) the 25-turn limit equals being forced to rush, B) FoW requires a stressful amount of caution, C) the status staves are Bullshit that is insanely hard to deal with and D) desert terrain makes the map unfair, so I find myself justified in believing that you're overreacting to the minor annoyances this map throws at you and try to make them look worse than they are because they aggravated you in your playthrough. There's nothing wrong with disliking the map - if you want to stick with whatever experience made you hate it that much, and keep finding it the worst GBA map, I'll agree to disagree. Don't constantly bring it up though just because someone finds other maps worse and mentions that they like Arcadia more or find it tolerable - it comes across as if you think your opinion is some kind of definitive and objective judgment; it's the polar opposite, pure personal experience. Other people have different experiences with playing this map and you should accept that without trying to teach everyone about yours.

I, for one, find the map much more enjoyable to play than maps that A) actually throw unpredictable Bullshit at the player (like 20xS), B) are drawn out and repetitive without any components to make them fun (like NoF and FE6 21x), C) have nothing interesting to them (like most of FE7's defend/survive maps) or D) are literally luck-based (like BBD). I only find Arcadia unfun when LTCing.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Gradivus.

[ping]

I feel I've sufficiently countered your claims that the A) 25-turn limit equals being forced to rush, B) FoW requires a stressful amount of caution, C) status staves are Bullshit that is insanely hard to deal with and D) desert terrain makes the map unfair, so I find myself justified in believing that you're overreacting to the minor annoyances this map throws at you and try to make them look worse than they are because they aggravated you in your first playthrough.

I'd like to add that while yes, Sophia in this chapter is a pain to keep alive, you (Levant) keep overstating how godawful Cecila is in this map. She has the same 2 tiles of movement that Lalum and Roy have, her Con is low enough that she can easily be picked up by your fliers, and with Canto she can actually help in rescue-drops better than a foot unit could.

Sure, she'd be better in this chapter as a sage, but she honestly isn't particularly bad as a Valkyrie, either.

[Weeping Dalek (MK)]

So what I'm getting from this is that you either fail to grasp or outright ignore that people don't like maps like Battle Before Dawn that are heavily luck-based. Needing slightly more parts luck than skill is one thing, but BBD on hard mode is practically like trying to go against a Swagplay team in Pokemon. And that's terrible.

If you're playing Fire Emblem, there are going to be a lot of luck based elements, RNG on Hits and Crits, RNG on Levels. You can play really well and then die to a stray critical hit, that wasn't really avoidable (say, a Berserker with a Hand Axe). Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that I love Battle Before Dawn (I don't) but I'm saying that it doesn't deserve all the hate it gets if I'm being honest

It would inherently be more tolerable if you removed the two bolting tomes. Every map becomes "more tolerable" if you remove challenging areas, so technically you're right. The Bolting Sages can be approached without any real risk though; the key to this is strategy. Units with 8 movement can be in range of the generic bolting sage while not being within the boss' range, whoever takes the Bolting on EP gets healed next turn and they can team up to kill the generic Sage (who won't retaliate since he has Bolting equipped). Then, you can take on the boss pretty safely. If you want to, you can also cheese it by stalling one of the Bolting tomes out. It's perfectly playable, and isn't drawn out and repetitive like NoF is, so what exactly is your point? You're probably overestimating the threat those Boltings pose.

What do you mean by this?

Regarding the "it also ain't any fun whatsoever" part, that's totally subjective and it isn't fair to expect every single person to feel that way, especially when you haven't brought up a real point about why Arcadia is the worst thing ever (other than some mumble chumble about it being Desert and FoW, both of which are far from inherently making chapters unfun).

It's perfectly possible to only be in range of one of the boltings, and if you have a unit with high Resistance (Like Lilina or Ray) then they can tank the boltings with effective healing, the Pirates and Wyverns would be the bigger threat to them (which you use units like Rutger, Dieck and Miledy to combat), Arcadia is the only FE chapter I've played that I legitimately hate, there are chapters I like, chapters I say meh to, chapters I dislike, then there's Arcadia, if you enjoy Arcadia, please explain why, but I hate it because one of my units always seems to get killed when I'm doing so well (thanks FE6 RNG) on this particular chapter because of the enemies (especially the Wyvern Lords, the Manaketes if you let them attack Lilina and the Hero with the Killing Edge), as well as the turn limit verses desert and fog (If it weren't for the combo of these aspects, I wouldn't get so frustrated and restart so much)

Simple - the desert and fog WOULD encourage careful play, but the time limit throws a wrench in that by making it close to, if not impossible to approach the chapter with the caution that the situation requires.

Exactly

That's not enforcing two playstyles that are the exact opposite though, just encouraging a combination of a careful playstyle and and effective use of your offense. It's a difficult chapter comparatively, and I can see it being annoying, but the turn limit is super lenient, even if the map would arguably be better had it not existed. It's perfectly possible to approach the map carefully enough while completing in 25 turns. Looking at the map, it takes 6-8 turns to get even the least mobile units to the area with the Mercenaries, then you fight them off while slowly making your way to the boss (another 6-8 turns since there's a land path). While your bosskillers defeat the boss (should take around 3-4 turns depending on your team), you can send a division down to get the warp staff and take on the wyvern riders if you haven't done so yet. Counting all this together, you have 20 turns when taking on the map slowly, in the unlikely scenario that no fliers are used (you even get Miledy right before the map and she's really good here). With fliers, you're closer to 10-15 turns at a natural pace. Unless you full-on turtle and take on all the bandits head-on and don't field any fliers (which no one would do while knowing of the time limit), there should be no risk of missing the gaiden. You're way overblowing whatever complaints the gaiden requirement warrants (and even keeping Sophia alive isn't hard, she has 5 mov in the desert and with Astol you can see any enemies that may ambush her otherwise).

You can also use a Torch on a Thief to anticipate enemies behind the FoW. That at most is the caution you need while scouting, and for the rest of the chapter where it's just fighting goons, regular Thief vision is enough.

When I play Arcadia, I always seem to seize on Turn 25, if I played slower, I would miss the Gaiden, which makes me miss out on Infernal Element, Forblaze and The Truth of the Legend, all of which I love (the only reason I don't have an army of mages in this game is the limited Guiding Rings if you can't be bothered to buy any from the Chapter 16 SS, I love Magic Users so much that I will forego Axe users and Knights to use more Magic users whether it be another healer, a mage or a shaman)

Unlike a certain more plot-important FE6 boss general, Leygance at least had sense to have WTA against his bane, and enough speed to avoid doubles from most who would use it (even Rutger has some trouble, he needs to gain 4 points of speed to do it on NM... though only 3 on HM apparently, ha). As far as Dieck goes... looking up some numbers and assuming average stats... neither will double the other (Dieck needs to be Level 15/19 to do so depending on mode). Leygance will 2HKO Dieck on NM until around Level 12-13, and on HM period, while Dieck 2HKOs him back (though it's low, so regen may change this) with about 50 hit. Not "best boss ever" but he can definitely be a bit of a frustrating wall sometimes with that evade and decent damage, and certainly was a major step up over all previous bosses (Wagner was okay), so he stood out to me. Granted, he's followed by a bunch of other competent midgame bosses too.

There are things to like about Truth of the Legend. I really want to like it! There's neat plot stuff going on during it, for sure. But taking on 1-2 manaketes at a time just isn't scary; the only remote threat on the map is getting someone with low durability like a staff user ganked by a reinforcement you don't know about. And Jahn himself is embarrassingly underwhelming, he deserved better than to be an immobile range 1 boss with a gaggle of weaknesses. Even setting aside challenge concerns, you're just fighting the same one enemy type over and over with near identical stats; it's repetitive.

That more plot important boss, is that Murdock? Ya, but Leygance is only slightly harder than Devias is for me, as opposed to Henning, Scott and Randy (Arcadia's Boss) being really hard for me for whatever reason (seriously, those three are harder than Narshen, Murdock, Zephiel, Brenya and Idoun for me)

I don't know why I love Truth of the Legend so much, maybe I just like Endgame maps (Sacred Stone is my third favourite FE Map and Light is my favourite, my second favourite is Neverending Dream) since I count Beyond the Darkness as basically an extension of Truth of the Legend

The desert and fog were but only two of the problems - the status staves are also aggravating factors that I shouldn't have to deal with when I'm already knee deep in BS, and there are reinforcements (to be fair, though, they're axe users, and are thus mostly no threat). And that's saying nothing of having TWO deadweights forced on my team. Also, if you think I'm overblowing my complaints, I can just as easily say you're selling them short.

I HATE THAT SLEEP STAFF BISHOP, seriously, he tries to Sleep Cecilia, which is fine, but if and when he has slept Cecilia, he still has uses of the Sleep Staff he likes to target Miledy, and of course I forgot to bring a Restore Staff and I'm not restarting because one of my units got sleeped, Miledy is out of commission for several turns, making all the other flaws more apparent, especially if I'm not using Tate

The desert impedes the enemy reinforcements to the point where they're unlikely to reach you, slows down the Mercenaries and put your fliers and magic users at an advantage. There are only 3 mages that come charged at you from the start, and the Wyverns won't move unless pulled (or until you're close to the castle, in the case of the SE group), so the desert terrain reducing mov on most of your units is only mildly annoying. Also, as said before, the FoW is mostly manageable with Thief vision or Thief + Torch vision.

Also, 2/3 (in fact, I think there's only one Silence and one Sleep, idr) of the status staves are silence and thus affect a small minority of your units (and won't even try to if you take away their staves before the EP) and the sleep staff can be coped with by rescuing the units who got targeted by it so they can keep up; getting status staffed for the first 5-6 turns isn't a big deal anyway, that's before you even get to the combat-heavy part of this map in a casual playthrough; getting status staved by non-Berserk in an area where the only thing you have to do is move is not very harmful.

I feel I've sufficiently countered your claims that the A) 25-turn limit equals being forced to rush, B) FoW requires a stressful amount of caution, C) status staves are Bullshit that is insanely hard to deal with and D) desert terrain makes the map unfair, so I find myself justified in believing that you're overreacting to the minor annoyances this map throws at you and try to make them look worse than they are because they aggravated you in your playthrough. There's nothing wrong with disliking the map - if you want to stick with whatever experience made you hate it that much, and keep finding it the worst GBA map, I'll agree to disagree. Don't constantly bring it up though just because someone finds other maps worse and mentions that they like Arcadia more or find it tolerable - it comes across as if you think your opinion is some kind of definitive and objective judgment; it's the polar opposite, pure personal experience. Other people have different experiences with playing this map and you should accept that without trying to teach everyone about yours.

I, for one, find the map much more enjoyable to play than maps that A) actually throw unpredictable Bullshit at the player (like 20xS), B) are drawn out and repetitive without any components to make them fun (like NoF and FE6 21x), C) have nothing interesting to them (like most of FE7's defend/survive maps) or D) are literally luck-based (like BBD). I only find Arcadia unfun when LTCing.

Honestly, the reason I hate Arcadia is because of the frustration of playing it the first time and pretty much every time since has been more of the same, I like Night of Farewells, I kinda like Silencing Darkness, I like Talons Alight and Sands of Time, I don't mind Battle Before Dawn, the only chapter I really hate is Arcadia, if you want to explain why you really enjoy Arcadia, be my guest, I for one would be really interested in hearing the other side of this argument about why people like the maps I hate and hate the maps I love (like Light)

I'd like to add that while yes, Sophia in this chapter is a pain to keep alive, you (Levant) keep overstating how godawful Cecila is in this map. She has the same 2 tiles of movement that Lalum and Roy have, her Con is low enough that she can easily be picked up by your fliers, and with Canto she can actually help in rescue-drops better than a foot unit could.

Sure, she'd be better in this chapter as a sage, but she honestly isn't particularly bad as a Valkyrie, either.

Cecilia is only really useful as a Staff unit for me, and I have way better staff units, Ellen and Saul are better for this chapter, by this point Lilina should at least be able to heal, and she's amazing as a healer thanks 75 mag growth, Clarine should be better than Cecilia because of Cecilia's awful Speed stat, although Cecilia does give an Aircalibur and a Mend which is nice, but other than that, she just sucks, especially for Arcadia because she has a quarter of her move, I typically have a 3-Move Roy in this chapter (I give him the Boots in this chapter, using the reset trick I can have Cecilia get them on Turn 1 and then use Thieves, Ellen, Saul and Ray to trade chain them to Roy on Turn 1)

[Shadow Mir]

If you're playing Fire Emblem, there are going to be a lot of luck based elements, RNG on Hits and Crits, RNG on Levels. You can play really well and then die to a stray critical hit, that wasn't really avoidable (say, a Berserker with a Hand Axe). Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that I love Battle Before Dawn (I don't) but I'm saying that it doesn't deserve all the hate it gets if I'm being honest

Exactly why do you think that Battle Before Dawn doesn't deserve the hate it gets, then? Just because FE has a lot of luck based elements doesn't make it okay to have a map that's dependent on luck to the extent that Battle Before Dawn is. And while the same is true of Pokemon, that doesn't mean that Swagplay isn't an incredibly degenerate, toxic, and braindead strategy.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Weeping Dalek (MK)]

Exactly why do you think that Battle Before Dawn doesn't deserve the hate it gets, then? Just because FE has a lot of luck based elements doesn't make it okay to have a map that's dependent on luck to the extent that Battle Before Dawn is. And while the same is true of Pokemon, that doesn't mean that Swagplay isn't an incredibly degenerate, toxic, and braindead strategy.

I'm not saying that it doesn't deserve some hate, but I don't think it deserves all the hate it gets

[Shadow Mir]

I'm not saying that it doesn't deserve some hate, but I don't think it deserves all the hate it gets

And I'm asking why you think it doesn't deserve all the hate it gets, because saying something like that and not bothering to back it up is an easy way to not get taken seriously.

[ping]

Not trying to talk for Dalek, but maybe because the sheer luck dependency is only a part of the chapter? A really annoying fuck-up on the designers' part, but the map does have its redeeming qualities. I like how you have to rush towards your objective, splitting up your forces to reach all the optional goals, having to find a balance between hurrying and not dying... The first half of the chapter really sells the feeling of urgency and I like that.

I don't hate it because I never had Jaffar dying before arriving. On ENM and HNM, he's not really threatened and I didn't switch to HM for quite some time, so when I did, I managed to rescue him rather quickly (and wasn't unlucky with the RNG and his AI). I'm aware that it's not possible to completely eliminate the risk and I think that's dumb, so I won't try and argue it's well designed. But there is a lot of stuff going on, it's challenging to play (well, for me at least) and it's quite rewarding to manage to beat it (and winning all the side objectives).

However, I also don't like that it's a "Defend for x turns" map without another win condition. Imho, killing Ursula should also end the chapter, giving the player the option to rush her instead of actively protecting Zephiel. So yeah, a flawed map, but not without its good points.

[Original Alear]

FE7 Prologue. Nothing happens: the Map!

I'd rate the last mission of the prologue as the worst. It combines bad weather (effectively bad terrain) with so few enemy units that it's just a slog to get through the chapter.

[SimpleTactician]

A pet peeve of mine is the weather. Whether IRL or in Fire Emblem, it annoys the heck out of me (Especially where I live, where it's as unpredictable as 30% growth rates). It sucks too, since they could've done more with it, instead of it simply decreasing movement. Why not incorporate an alternating day/night mechanic; when it's daytime, everyone gets +1 atk and +5 crit bonuses. When it's night time, everyone loses 10 accuracy, but gets +3 atk or something, I'm sick of just rain and snow.

Oh, and on the subject of snow, I don't like FE7's Pale Flower of Darkness (Jerme's map) at all. By the way, I'll be talking about the ENM variation of this map, since this is, most likely, how the player will play this level for the first time (or not, they could play Kenneth's route, but this is just an example). The design seems to be a mess; trees everywhere, chambers scattered all over the map...heck, there's even 2 brigands at the top of the map that are only really there to traverse mountains easily, as there are no villages to visit. And to top it all off, the weather makes your day all the more miserable. Snow halves your units' movement. In fact, it might as well be rain. At least it's something different to look at.

There are six chambers in total, and Jerme, the boss, is hiding in the northeast one, regardless of what mode or difficulty you play. However, there are also a few treasure chests in these chambers. Add in the curiosity of the player and their first time playing, and they're guaranteed to snoop all of the six rooms. And this is how they will most likely spend 25 long turns in order to get everything with one thief. Bringing two alleviates the boredom, but the at this point of the game, the player should've started promoting units; they know how much more useful they can be in combat than thieves.Therefore, unless they choose to play with both Matthew and Legault, the average player (me, the first time) will pick one and deal with it.

TL;DR: It's a boring slog with nothing interesting to offer except for the snow, which is just rain with a coat of ice. It's not fun.

[eclipse]

I'm gonna be different, and say the absolute last chapter of FE6.

So you've waded through gimmicks upon gimmicks, dealt with some pretty scary enemies and exposition beforehand. . .and then Idoun goes down in something like four hits. It's really anti-climatic, IMO.

Runner-up is the Fire Dragon in FE7, thanks to Luna crits.

[ping]

I'm gonna be different, and say the absolute last chapter of FE6.

So you've waded through gimmicks upon gimmicks, dealt with some pretty scary enemies and exposition beforehand. . .and then Idoun goes down in something like four hits. It's really anti-climatic, IMO.

Unless my calculus is failing me, Roy needs 16 Strength and 20 Speed to one-round Idoun. On average, he'll reach that speed at Level 20/10, so it's not completely unreasonable to reach this even without stat boosters. :D

I always considered Jahn to be the final "real" boss in the game, kinda like the Final Aeon in FF10 or that Latin-chant fight in FF7. There is technically another fight coming up, but that's more of a formality; someone or something that needs to be dealt with even though it's not a threatening warrior in itself. Idoun was formed into the demon dragon to create war dragons, not to fight herself, after all. And while divine dragons are supposedly more powerful that fire dragons, she was still a girl when she was transformed.

That's why I find that Jahn is the real disappointment. His chapter is super repetitive, his underlings fall easily to your legendary weapons (even though Jahn tells us that they had lost most of their strength...) and Jahn himself is not as strong as 1000 years of preparation would suggest. If he was more challenging, Idoun being a total pushover wouldn't be as bad as it is.