Why are all the characters so Tsundere?

[Emerson]

"I think the main thing is that Takumi's jealousy is a main part of his character. If it was just a thing that happened once, it wouldn't be a reason to like him for the most part. However, Takumi's jealousy is a part of his character and interactions so much that it is a main part of who he is."

I can see that. But it really just doesn't feel like actual jealousy to me; it feels like obligational jealousy. Like that he's only jealous because nobody else is, and because the game can make him into a Tsundere to appeal to people who like Tsunderes.

"While his age is not directly mentioned, the general opinion is that he is a teenager. He's still maturing and learning from his mistakes."

But he doesn't mature. In Hoshido, all that happens is that he breaks out of a brainwashing that served only to create a scene where he can be broken out of it, while in Nohr he turns into an angsty rage monster and dies. If he had an arc, maybe I could accept his immaturity, see him actually change. But we didn't get that. Instead, he's rarely anything more than a reaction image in cutscenes.

Then there's the fact that I've read through nearly all his supports, and have seen that his issues aren't addressed, only used as a way to give him a distinct voice. Even if they are addressed, it'll still go to waste, because the next support is going to have him right back at square one, none of his levelup or battle quotes change at all, and he still ends up jealous towards his own damn son! It's ridiculous!

"Like he's only jealous because nobody else is"

What? Are you saying the game wanted a character to be jealous, so they chose Takumi? That's not a good reasoning. They could have made no character jealous, but they chose Takumi because thats what they wanted him to be. They wanted to make his character out of that.

The whole thing with him getting controlled and breaking out of it in BR is a literal representation of him maturing and gaining control over his emotions. In Conquest, by the time Takumi matures and learns what he did was wrong, he was dead. He matured in the afterlife, as is both said and seen in his dialogue before Endgame in the little "Corrin dies" thing.

Takumi DOES mature. Look at chapter 25 of birthright. Thats enough for me. He breaks out of the possesion because he trusts that his siblings believe in him, what he didn't know for sure before that. And even then, The events of fates don't even take place longer than 2 Months. It is hard to fully mature in that time, don't you think?

This puts it better than I ever could. You can probably just ignore mine and listen to Michelaar's

Ok, this last point is not a problem with Takumi, it's a problem with the way Awakening and Fates were made. Just like how Cordelia's dialogue for level ups etc doesn't change when she's married, it's still implied that she gets over Chrom once she is. Same goes for Felicia and how she may overcome her clumsiness in one support, then fall flat on her face in the next. It's something they COULD fix, but chose not to.

This is a bit headcanon-y, but I like to think the support don't happen when you unlock them. I imagine they happen either sometime in the past or future, and you just get the option to view them when you unlock them. Sorry to go off topic, but I just wanted to get that out.

From reading this topic I get the feeling that OP doesn't really understand what a tsundere is. Just because two characters aren't all hunky-dory with each other from the get go doesn't make either of them a tsundere. By definition, a "tsundere" is a character who is prickly on the outside "tsuntsun" but sweet and caring on the inside "deredere".

I agree with this to an extent. I don't think OP thought, "Just because two characters aren't all hunky-dory with each other" made them a tsundere.

Edited July 30, 2016 by TrueEm

[eclipse]

I can tell you one thing, I hate that whenever that support chain is brought up, the C rank is the only[/n] thing talked about while the rest of the chain (which is a really good one) is ignored. Plus the joke's about as funny as a Dane Cook album.

Sorry for being butthurt over this, but I'll be a happier man if that "...." "...." joke would just die already.

I have a very specific reason for asking that question. Warn points hinge on the answer (or lack thereof).

EDIT: Not you, the guy I originally quoted.

Edited July 30, 2016 by eclipse

[Qilin]

Could've fooled me. Whenever I read his dialogue, I don't see a person trying to grow from under one's shadow. I just see a graceless brat who likes yelling at people.

Well, he IS a racist.

[Michelaar]

He isn't racist. Would you like people that killed your parents?

[Qilin]

He isn't racist. Would you like people that killed your parents?

Oh? Should every relative of 9/11 victims hate muslims? The entire Nohr didn't kill his parents, yet he has been quoted to say "Nohrians aren't like normal, decent people." Yes, that is very, very racist. The cause of it does not negate it.

[saisymbolic]

Well, I wouldn't particularly call any of the characters in the game racist, considering the tensions between Hoshido and Nohr; I would actually consider it closer to prejudice. Also, I am pretty sure the Saizou/Beruka comment made earlier was made to be funny and/or sarcasm—similar to when I jokingly said the Japanese version of Azama/Kagero was the best support in the entire series in one old comment thread which I promptly got warning points for. I won't touch the topic of Takumi—people tend to get a little too passionate when he is brought into conversation.

As for OP's original question/statement starting the thread, I believe what you are experiencing has to do with which characters you are viewing the supports for and how you are interpreting the conversations. I know for certain there are only two "tsundere" characters in this game. That being: Selena and Keaton—and I'm hesitant to call Keaton a "tsundere." Literally all of Selena's supports has her initially "running hot" and being ill-tempered, bratty and then "cooling down" and acting bashful and defensive.

[Michelaar]

I thinks it is justified for hoshidans to hate Nohr. Especially for Takumi and Oboro, and pretty much the whole royal family. Nohr's reason for hating Hoshido is complete horseshit though

[Qilin]

But justifying racism still does not make it not racist.

[Azure Sen]

But justifying racism still does not make it not racist.

The fact that nothing in the game indicates that Hoshidans and Nohrians are considered different races does, however.

[Emerson]

The fact that nothing in the game indicates that Hoshidans and Nohrians are considered different races does, however.

BAM main point!

It's like people from 2 states hating each other. Except it's the majority of the people.

I didn't use countries for an example because that what the actual topic of the discussion is about, and states are typically the same race, while countries differ more.

Edited July 30, 2016 by TrueEm

[Qilin]

That's just wishful thinking on you guys' parts. It would be a tough sell to claim Nohn and Hoshido are not stand-ins for West and East. Moreover, the differences between races are not always major. If Japan, Korea, and China can be next to each other and have the animosity against one another by their respective peoples be considered racism, then hate between more dissimilar nations such as Nohr and Hoshido definitely qualifies as racism.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Qilin

[GrySun]

Many support convos don't just have 2 people talking friendly with each other. To make 2 people warm up to each other in 3 conversations often needs some conflicts in order for it to seem natural. Which doesn't really make them tsunderes.

[NekoKnight]

I like how this thread went from "why is everyone tsundere" to "why I don't like Takumi".

I'll address a few points I saw in this thread.

1. Let's not use S-supports as canon elements of the characters, mmkay? Most of them are terribly written, don't make sense with other supports or even within their own support chain. Takumi being cold to Azura because he wanted to bone her instead of being siblings is pretty shitty writing. But how else could we have Incest Emblem?

2. Takumi is racist (or prejudiced, if you prefer the term), but that's not indicative of a bad character. It might not make him a nicer person but his mindset is pretty understandable. Nohr makes a shitty neighbor for anyone, but especially the Hoshidan royal family.

3. I'd disagree with Takumi being a tsundere. When people discuss the term, it's usually applied to characters who were obviously designed to appeal to those who find that disposition cute. I don't think Takumi's insecurities are supposed to be cute. In fact, his inferiority complex when combined with Kamui's actions in the plot is very much played up for drama.

4. It's not uncommon for supports to take on a structure of "introduction, conflict, resolution". This pattern is not exclusive to tsundere behavior. It's just how two people who are different can eventually come to a greater understanding of each other.

For the record, I generally dislike tsundere tropes so I'd be the first to point out if characters fell into this archetype.

[Junkhead]

It's called "emotion".

[Alandrage]

I don't think Takumi's insecurities are supposed to be cute.

As someone who recalls the intended appeal of characters like Lon'qu and Nah, I'm inclined to disagree.

Edited August 1, 2016 by Alandrage

[Emerson]

As someone who recalls the intended appeal of characters like Lon'qu and Nah, I'm inclined to disagree.

Just because two characters share a trait doesn't mean it's used for the same thing.

Bringing the full quote into play;

I don't think Takumi's insecurities are supposed to be cute. In fact, his inferiority complex when combined with Kamui's actions in the plot is very much played up for drama.

But Lon'qu's insecurities were used for comedy.

My point is that they share a basic idea in their character, but they're used differently and for different reasons. It's like comparing Cordelia and Tsubaki.

[NekoKnight]

As someone who recalls the intended appeal of characters like Lon'qu and Nah, I'm inclined to disagree.

I'm sure some people (read; female fans) find him cute for his uncertainty in himself, but it can't be denied that these traits are also a serious part of his characterization and a point of drama (and explanation for his behavior) in Conquest. Takumi isn't a token tsundere. His traits exist for more than shallow fan appeal.

[Alandrage]

I can't believe that.

I can't believe that a game that has characters as sexualized and player fellatio-intended like Camilla, and touts as one of its back-of-the-box selling features "the ability to marry any character you want, and be rewarded with an adorable kid in return" would make a character whose angst is meant to be taken seriously instead of sexually attractive.

And if it is, they really need to do better with him than taking Innes, ramping up the angst factor, and then turning him into a big dumb rage monster for a contrived final boss battle.

Edited August 1, 2016 by Alandrage

[eclipse]

I can't believe that.

I can't believe that a game that has characters as sexualized and player fellatio-intended like Camilla, and touts as one of its back-of-the-box selling features "the ability to marry any character you want, and be rewarded with an adorable kid in return" would make a character whose angst is meant to be taken seriously instead of sexually attractive.

And if it is, they really need to do better with him than taking Innes, ramping up the angst factor, and then turning him into a big dumb rage monster for a contrived final boss battle.

This is about as helpful as that C-support nonsense earlier in this thread. Please explain WHY you think this.

[Alandrage]

But...I just did. I explained that I can't trust Takumi as being meant to be taken seriously because this game tries to make every character exist for the player to develop a sexual attraction to them.

[Emerson]

But...I just did. I explained that I can't trust Takumi as being meant to be taken seriously because this game tries to make every character exist for the player to develop a sexual attraction to them.

I really hope you don't feel sexually attracted to a fictional character. There's nothing wrong with it but...

Let's say it doesn't bode well you your social life.

"this game tries to make every character exist for the player to develop a sexual attraction to them."

What? That makes no sense. The characters are made to be likable, yes, but no characters are made specifically to be sexually pleasing. We do have exceptions like Camilla and Charlotte, but for Charlotte it works with her character (seducing men). I can't find a reason for Camilla other than the fact she officially has a cow motif in her design, which I still find udderly hilarious. (Eyyyyy)

Nothing about Takumi is made to be sexually attractive. Some may find him attractive, but he wasn't made to be that way.

Edited August 1, 2016 by TrueEm

[Shinehollow]

One of the only times a character is made to be sexually attractive is a game where your only goal is to romance someone. Only thing you do in the game is to romance someone. Like, Nero, a man in a hack and slash, wasn't meant to be sexually attractive but here I am attracted to him anyway.

This thread is a train wreck.

Edited August 1, 2016 by Devil Bringer

[eclipse]

But...I just did. I explained that I can't trust Takumi as being meant to be taken seriously because this game tries to make every character exist for the player to develop a sexual attraction to them.

That's not a very good reason IMO. You're presupposing what the developers wanted based on aesthetics, which is subjective. I, for one, don't think Leo is particularly attractive.

Is there something within the game (for example, the script) that hints that Takumi's angst isn't serious?

[Emerson]

One of the only times a character is made to be sexually attractive is a game where your only goal is to romance someone. Only thing you do in the game is to romance someone. Like, Nero, a man in a hack and slash, wasn't meant to be sexually attractive but here I am attracted to him anyway.

This thread is a train wreck.

Is this directed at me or the OP?

And I agree, this thread is a mess. And it's entirely my fault to be honest.

[Shinehollow]

Is this directed at me or the OP?

And I agree, this thread is a mess. And it's entirely my fault to be honest.

OP. And don't take fault. It just happened.