Things you like about FE14's Plot (Spoilers)

[quasimopho13]

I personally thought Ch 26 Hoshido was fantastic.

The plot twist and how Xander's reason for continuing the duel were really well executed.

Also, Xander's reasons for fighting make sense given his character. I think his line about not having a choice in choosing sides like the avatar, really brings this point home.

Since he's the crown prince, it would be very difficult to change his country by not outwardly siding with it.

[Seafarer]

Are we talking about Xander's reason for fighting before or after Elise died? Because until that point, yes, I thought it was well executed. Afterwards, however... Xander ignores his sister's dying wish and forces Corrin (his other brother/sister) to kill him because he's too much of a coward to do the right thing?

Xander is a dick.

[Thinks Their Own Way]

I like how their is a very good reason to choose either Hoshido or Nohr, there isn't a wrong choice.

[Book Bro]

This thread may backfire quick.

That chapter just made me see Xander as a spineless brat. Of course he had a choice. Leo, Camilla, and Elise all make the choice to help Kamui in the end because they realize he's right about Garon being a crazy tyrant. Xander, as the oldest of the royals and the crown prince of Nohr, should have been the first to stand up against his clearly evil father and fight for the good of his country. But he fools himself into thinking that just because Garon is King, he represents Nohr more than all the rightfully pissed off rebels and (ex-)allies. To top it off, he can't even put aside his lame self-pity party to follow through on his dying sister's wish.

As for the actual topic...

I think the idea of the plot is great. Conquest is really not so bad until we get to Valla. Despite the convoluted reasoning for the invasion, I thought the Hoshidans minus Hinoka and plus Yukimura got some great scenes that really added to their character.

In Hoshido I thought the Nohrian siblings minus Xander were written well. Yes, even Camilla outside of her cutscene was a good character to me. We really see her fragile mental state in this path. Elise has a great and very tragic arc.

Leo and Takumi are standouts in general.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Book Bro

[joshcja]

I legitimately thought revelations closing cutscene was the marriage option we all want to happen for the first minute of it.

Past that everything but BR Elise's end, (just no >.> go kill Takumi again game) the whole this is a pretty hilarious shitpost and I honestly enjoy it as such.

The best line in the game may be from birthright "No Sakura your brothers are competent enough to not fall in the bottomless canyon"

[Slyfox]

Are we talking about Xander's reason for fighting before or after Elise died? Because until that point, yes, I thought it was well executed. Afterwards, however... Xander ignores his sister's dying wish and forces Corrin (his other brother/sister) to kill him because he's too much of a coward to do the right thing?

Xander is a dick.

That may be so, but it's good writing nonetheless. Just because we don't agree with Xander's decision doesn't mean it's bad writing.

I like how their is a very good reason to choose either Hoshido or Nohr, there isn't a wrong choice.

I much prefer Nohr/Conquest over Birthright, but even I can't deny that choosing Nohr is pretty much the wrong choice.

Anyway, moving on to other things I liked about the story...

- The Zola arc/subplot in Birthright. He was decent in Conquest as well.

- Most story related things involving the royals in Conquest and Birthright were fantastic, with the constant exceptions of Corrin and Azura. Alas, why doesn't Hinoka get to do anything? :(

- Yukimura in general, especially when he loses it after the prisoners get executed in Birthright.

- Flora in general, minus the death scene.

That's all I have? Huh.

Also, I have nothing positive to say about Revelation.

Now that I've looked back and thought about the story elements I like in Fates, I realize how nothing really happens in the story. It's just mindless fight after fight, no plot twists that have lasting consequences. The chapters all feel disconnected, with no bearing on the overall plot. I feel like we could go from chapter 6 straight to the endgame and we wouldn't miss out on any story. The only sub-arc that lasted a few chapters is the one with Zola in Birthright (we don't speak of the one with Anthony).

[Seafarer]

That may be so, but it's good writing nonetheless. Just because we don't agree with Xander's decision doesn't mean it's bad writing.

It's not good writing when all the characters are telling you how wise and noble and brave Xander is, and then the test comes and he's shown to be none of those things. Showing one thing while insisting the opposite is true is (oh gods why do I have to make this comparison) a large part of why Twilight is bad.

Xander's decision would be fine if he was then called on the fact that he's a spineless jackass who doesn't care who else gets hurt because he can't live with himself, oh woe is him. At least Ryoma didn't suicide by cop; he's a samurai, with some actual honour.

[NekoKnight]

Let's see...

-Elise's plot involvement and death scene. She is one of the few Nohrians who tries to help Kamui in Birthright and she had some plot focus leading up to her tragic demise. Xander's immediate actions afterwords detracted from her death, however.

-Any of the story mandated retainer deaths (Saizo, Kagero, Laslow, Pieri, Oboro and Hinata). You really feel the sense of their loyalty and their sadness for not being strong enough to defend their lords.

-The choice in chapter 5 between Nohr and Hoshido. No matter who you choose, the other family will be devastated. After the route split, it becomes obvious that Birthright is the right path, but it's still even at the choice scene.

-Zola taking a stand for Kamui in birthright was sweet. A shame how he's treated in Conquest.

I think...that's all of it.

That may be so, but it's good writing nonetheless. Just because we don't agree with Xander's decision doesn't mean it's bad writing.

It's all about how characters are portrayed. If the game wants Xander's death to be tragic (and that is certainly the intention) they shouldn't have made him such a stubborn moron the entire game. Him ignoring his own sister's dying wish puts him in asshole territory for a lot of people. The game wanting us to feel bad for him, despite Xander being the author of his own (and Elise's) destruction, is bad writing.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Elise's whole bit in Birthright actually made that plot a bit fun for me.

[Slyfox]

It's not good writing when all the characters are telling you how wise and noble and brave Xander is, and then the test comes and he's shown to be none of those things. Showing one thing while insisting the opposite is true is (oh gods why do I have to make this comparison) a large part of why Twilight is bad.

Xander's decision would be fine if he was then called on the fact that he's a spineless jackass who doesn't care who else gets hurt because he can't live with himself, oh woe is him.

I agree with your point to some extent, with all the undeserved worship being thrown at half the royals.

However, the suicide by cop is actually very much in line with Xander's previous actions and character. While the game thinks everyone is flawless, and tries to present it as such, at Serenes we pretty much ignore that now. Xander has always been the most uncompromising and unforgiving of the "older brothers", as shown in Birthright and Revelation. Xander's refusal to back down after Elise's death? We've basically seen seen him do that all the time, thus, it's in character.

At least Ryoma didn't suicide by cop; he's a samurai, with some actual honour.

Ryoma's decision was just as dumb as Xander's. He had soooo many opportunities to talk to Corrin or escape before the whole thing even began.

And with some actual honour? There is no such thing in the world when it comes to taking a life, even your own. I believe it's just a convenient excuse to make death acceptable. If Ryoma has honour for not falling at the hands at the hands of the enemy, then Xander has honour for remaining loyal to Nohr till the very end. The end result is the same, they are both dead, and we could have avoided it. So no, I don't think Ryoma's death is better.

[NekoKnight]

Ryoma's decision was just as dumb as Xander's. He had soooo many opportunities to talk to Corrin or escape before the whole thing even began.

And with some actual honour? There is no such thing in the world when it comes to taking a life, even your own. I believe it's just a convenient excuse to make death acceptable. If Ryoma has honour for not falling at the hands at the hands of the enemy, then Xander has honour for remaining loyal to Nohr till the very end. The end result is the same, they are both dead, and we could have avoided it. So no, I don't think Ryoma's death is better.

These scenes are quite different.

-Talk to Corrin? What would they even talk about? Garon is invading and it's up to Ryoma to stop him. Corrin's plan was ridiculous and it's even dumber that Hinoka or Ryoma would trust him. There is no point in fleeing either because this is Hoshido's last stand.

-Ryoma kills himself to spare Corrin the hardship of having to kill his own brother. Xander forces you to kill him (after Elise dies begging him to stop fighting) because he's too much of a wuss to either oppose Garon (who he should know is evil) or to take his own life. It's moral to defend your country from an unprovoked invasion. Xander's loyalty isn't praise-worthy when his dad is a monster.

[Seafarer]

Ryoma's decision was just as dumb as Xander's. He had soooo many opportunities to talk to Corrin or escape before the whole thing even began.

And with some actual honour? There is no such thing in the world when it comes to taking a life, even your own. I believe it's just a convenient excuse to make death acceptable. If Ryoma has honour for not falling at the hands at the hands of the enemy, then Xander has honour for remaining loyal to Nohr till the very end. The end result is the same, they are both dead, and we could have avoided it. So no, I don't think Ryoma's death is better.

Ryoma's decision was this: kill himself, or force Corrin to kill him. He chose not to put his own blood on someone else's hands.

Ryoma was also the high prince of Hoshido. He couldn't escape. He was defending his homeland from an unprovoked invasion, unlike Xander, so he had no choice there. It was kill or die.

Xander's decision was to help end his father's monstrous reign or to keep fighting against his dead sister's wishes. He chose to keep fighting, but the motivation behind that choice wasn't "I must defend my homeland" anymore; it was "my sister is dead wah poor me". Xander is an idiot and an all-around unpleasant person, and we should be grateful he's dead, not sad.

[DarkDestr0yer61]

Elise's entire involvement in Birthright. Her death legit made me tear up. She is actually my favorite character in Fates.

[Slyfox]

Xander knew Garon when he was a great man far longer than the rest of the siblings. His view of his father is clouded from all the good he has seen beforehand. How many people in our world do bad things things just for family? In general, family ties are so strong that people choose them over the rest of the world, to the detriment of others. Xander is no different than the majority of people on this planet.

Xander's an idiot, but his actions make 100% sense, even if we don't agree with it. Was he wrong to keep fighting? Yes. Was I mad at him? Yes. Did it make sense for him to do that? Also yes. Just because we wouldn't personally keep fighting doesn't mean someone else wouldn't as well. It's easy for us to blame Xander, because I bet none of you are in positions of authority. Our countries make hard calls all the time, often costing lives of people everywhere. It's important to criticize, but if we are clouded by personal bias as well and don't even try to understand the situation, how is that any better?

As for Ryoma defending his kingdom (in his chapter), that's entirely false. Nohr had a much larger army, won all the fights that we know of and captured the entire city. Hoshido has lost the war already, but Ryoma keeps fighting for some reason? That reason is honour, no different than Xander. Want me to make it worse by comparing it to someone else doing something stupid? Emmeryn went back to the capital, straight into the hands of Plegians. Ryoma is only different in that he didn't even try to leave a hopeless situation.

For the record, I'm not apologizing for Xander's actions, I'm just arguing that it's well written. Hate the character all you want, I won't stop anyone from doing that, I also agree that he did some really dumb things. But just because we don't like a character doesn't mean it's a poorly written one. I myself hate certain characters in some stories, but I can appreciate what they add to the story. It's important to make the distinction.

Also, before any of you say it was poorly written again, remember that the poorly written aspect applies to all of Fates. Which is why we are dissecting the story and choosing what we like and what we don't like. So in a way, yes, the Xander/Elise death scene was bad, but no more so than the rest of Fates.

[Seafarer]

Okay, I'm just going to defend Ryoma's actions one last time.

Ryoma knew he had lost, sure. But he couldn't surrender, because Garon would have had him killed. Why would you surrender to someone who was going to kill you anyway? Why not make one last roll of the dice?

Why not try to get revenge on the person who killed your sister and your brother?

(Also, he's still defending his kingdom, because his kingdom isn't just land; it's his people, too; the people still fighting at his side, who he can still hope to save.)

As for the bit about Xander still respecting his father, I'm going to take issue with that. Xander, after Elise's death, went into battle with Corrin with the aim of dying. Xander being killed by Corrin is exactly the same as Xander stepping aside for Corrin in terms of what then happens to Garon. Xander fights Corrin with the sole intention of killing himself without actually killing himself; bringing Garon into it is a red herring.

I'll concede that it fits with what we're shown of Xander rather than what we're told; I was arguing from the perspective of "it's badly written because it contradicts Xander's stated character" when I really should have been thinking of whether it fit with his actual character. I'll still say that Xander's badly written, so he spoils for me one of the few parts of Fates's plot that I do like.

[Emerson]

My favorite thing about Fates' plot is that I can skip it by pressing Start.

...

In all seriousness, I like Birthright's story for the most part. Only 1-2 dumb things Xander and a little bland, but overall enjoyable. And probably the most realistic from Cormui's standpoint.

I like that Cormui wasn't a complete dumbass in Revelations. Their choices were a bit more understandable, and they actually took precautions when following Anthony.

But it gets very plot-twist heavy at the end and it gets really boring.

I like that Conquest had a bunch of plot holes that made the story a cringe-fest.

Edited August 4, 2016 by TrueEm

[Slyfox]

If Ryoma surrendered, that would just be asking for trouble and most likely death for him and the soldiers. I was trying to argue that he should have left, joined up with Hinoka, consolidate his forces and fight somewhere else, another day, something along those lines.

As for the bit about Xander still respecting his father, I'm going to take issue with that. Xander, after Elise's death, went into battle with Corrin with the aim of dying. Xander being killed by Corrin is exactly the same as Xander stepping aside for Corrin in terms of what then happens to Garon. Xander fights Corrin with the sole intention of killing himself without actually killing himself; bringing Garon into it is a red herring.

I'll concede that it fits with what we're shown of Xander rather than what we're told; I was arguing from the perspective of "it's badly written because it contradicts Xander's stated character" when I really should have been thinking of whether it fit with his actual character. I'll still say that Xander's badly written, so he spoils for me one of the few parts of Fates's plot that I do like.

In regards to the first paragraph, you are right. It wouldn't change anything if he lived or died at that point. I still like the scene, but it basically is Birghtright Flora all over again.

In regards to the second paragraph, this is what I like about people who can debate properly. Understanding both sides while still sticking to your guns. Every coin has two sides, it doesn't mean you have to like both, but you can't change the fact that it still has two sides. At least, that's my take on things.

Anyway, everyone, thanks for the debates! It's been a blast!

[Seafarer]

My favorite thing about Fates' plot is that I can skip it by pressing Start.

My favourite thing about Fates's plot is that it lets me put my largely-neglected literary analysis skills to good use ripping it to shreds. :-p

If Ryoma surrendered, that would just be asking for trouble and most likely death for him and the soldiers. I was trying to argue that he should have left, joined up with Hinoka, consolidate his forces and fight somewhere else, another day, something along those lines.

I believe Shirasagi was surrounded; Ryoma would have had good reason to think he wouldn't be able to do that. From a meta perspective, Hinoka got caught by Iago's men trying to do exactly that, so we can see that the choice Ryoma made was better.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Seafarer

[Phoenix Rain]

Really the only thing that I thought was a bit interesting was towards the end of Revelations with some fights I didn't expect. the same for chapter 18. Also if I did get spoiled who the human enemy was, that probably would have gotten me a bit too. honestly to me, hidden truths was written better than quite a lot of the plot in the main game. and I have played all three.

[blinkingbrave]

I liked moooost of Conquest (easier to name the parts I didn't like than did because there are less of them, but that's the entire opposite point of the topic).

Then, Birthright had the Xander fights, Camilla fights, and Leo's last fight.

And Revelation had the Xander-Corrin-Ryoma dynamic, which I really enjoyed seeing. Generally speaking, I also enjoyed all the recruitment scenes/dialogue, too, more than in Birthright or Conquest.

Revelation & Conquest also had pacing I really liked, which isn't so much a story thing but it kinda is.

Edited August 4, 2016 by blinkingbrave

[twistedxgrace]

Elise's entire involvement in Birthright. Her death legit made me tear up. She is actually my favorite character in Fates.

I definitely agree on that. None of the deaths in the entire game hit as hard as hers.

That being said, I like how Azura's death was handled/foreshadowed in Birthright as well. If that pendant didn't make her suffer, she would come off as overpowered. It's too bad the overall plot doesn't give her the credit she deserves.

honestly to me, hidden truths was written better than quite a lot of the plot in the main game

You are not wrong. Hidden Truths reveals so much it's pretty much required for understanding the Awakening kids' presence and more about Lilith and Anankos. IntSys made such a wise decision of putting such significant information into even more paid DLC.

I thought Heirs of Fate had an overall better story than the main ones, too. It really made me care about the kid characters.

[joshcja]

I enjoyed Hidden truths.

[saisymbolic]

I liked Birthright all the way up until Zola died. After that, the Elise/Xander portion of the game. I personally like to think that Xander realized he had dekcuf up and knew the audience would hate him, so he went, "Kcuf it! Kamui, come kill me! I'm out this hctib!" and then he wouldn't have to deal with the consequences of his actions. I still love you Xander.

I love Conquest. Just throwing that out there. I love it in spite of all of its flaws. Nothing will make me change my mind. Because, when you love something, you accept all of its flaws. My favorite part is when Ryoma stabs himself in the balls, as someone said on an older thread. To which, I responded, "Would you like some lightning-fried lobster testicles marinated in bitter, salty tears?" I like you, Ryoma. Just not as much as a lot of other characters.

I won't touch Revelation.

Edited August 4, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[joshcja]

"Would you like some lightning-fried lobster testicles marinated in bitter, salty tears?"

I won't touch Revelation.

Yes, yes I would.

You should experience the wonder of rev, everybody jumps off acliff and dies after ch18, then they magically comeback to life so the Ryomarx ship can sail in the ending cutscene while Leo and Takumi look soulfully into one another's eyes.

It's fucking glorious.

Edited August 4, 2016 by joshcja

[Namarid]

I liked chapter 8 of conquest because of the interaction between the characters, I also can somewhat believe the sparing of the villagers since its small skirmish.

I guess I enjoyed chapter 14 of birthright. Chapter 26 was well done, containing the best death scene in the game.

The only good thing about revelation so far(on chapter 25) was the ryoma teasing at the end of chapter 13. Chapter 13 also contains one of my most disliked lines in the game, corrin says something along the lines of 'neither hoshido or nohr are to blame. It was the invisible enemies!' Really compelling fucking argument corrin good luck trying to gain trust when you sound like a insane idiot.

The brought back to life scenes in conquest and birthright irk me as well since they make no sense.