Do you think Rinkah is a bad unit?

[Blademaster_Aio]

I really think Rinkah suffers from expectations more than anything. People think she's the equivalent of either knight or fighter, when she's neither. I'm

Also dodge tanking is THE most unreliable form of tanking, ever. I've had enemies hit me with a 5% chance. It happens okay.

BR actually has lots of decent dodge tanks, but still so unreliable.

[Renall]

The heck does her Avoid matter when she takes little damage from everything non-magical. Besides, even as a tank she shouldn't have to be dealing with 12 enemies at a time. She's more meant for choak-pointing and general destruction via Bolt Axe, not Benny-style multiple enemy tanking.

I don't think you understood my point. I agree with you, her Avoid is unreliable and so there's no reason to worry about it. What I mean is you should account for this, assume she'll always get hit, and calculate based on her concrete durability. If you do this she shouldn't be randomly dying even with the Bolt Axe.

EDIT: Also it's worth noting Rinkah WANTS to get hit, even if only for chip damage, because she wants her personal active ASAP if she's tanking. So putting her Avoid in the toilet somewhat ironically makes her better as long as she can take the hits, as she'll take 1-3 damage or something and then Fiery Blood is contributing 4-8 extra damage per combat, which ain't peanuts.

Having her prone to getting attacked more easily will be bad around Mag users. -20 avoid Bolt Axe. Oni Chieftain fixes that issue though with Tiger Spirit.

Tiger Spirit requires C Tomes which Rinkah will probably never have (Hayato is the Oni likely to be able to use Scrolls, Rinkah wants Axes), cuts her effective doubling by 2 (granted she's not that concerned), has WTD against Lances, 8 Mt, and it has a -5 Avoid penalty anyway. Bolt Axe is an Axe (so it continues to build her Axe rank allowing her to switch off to physical Clubs if necessary), has WTA on Lances, and 14 Mt. That is a huge difference if you aren't forging a Tiger Spirit, and you'd need a +3 Tiger Spirit to pull even on Mt: That's 8 Tiger Spirits or 16000G vs. the Bolt Axe that drops in BR14 for free and basically can't be used by anybody else except Scarlet, who has much better things to do (though she does start at C Axes and could use it).

The entire point of the Bolt Axe is to give Rinkah a relatively inexpensive and uncompetitive niche if you intend to use her; there's not much competition for one Spirit Dust and a Bolt Axe almost nobody can use but her, and it lets her be a solid physical tank who dodges nothing but soaks physical hits well and counters at 1-2 range with Res-targeting damage. That's not the best, but it's at least the least resource-competitive thing Rinkah can do to establish herself in the midgame, and it's pretty unique outside of Chieftain Hayato (who has his own issues, and is barely any better on the Res front unless he remains a Diviner and then his Def sucks).

EDIT: To give an example, if Rinkah never once procs Mag growth then as an Oni Chieftain with a Spirit Dust she has 8 Mag which is 26 Atk with the Bolt Axe after Fiery Blood is active. That's as bad as she can possibly be with that setup. Any Mag growth procs, any Pair Ups, any tonics or meals make that better. But even at that point it's not bad for that point in the game; the boss of BR15 has 15 Def compared to just 6 Res, so Rinkah is doing 20 damage per swing, can attack him at 2 range which prevents him from counterattacking her, and if she doubles (which is somewhat unlikely, but she shouldn't get doubled) she ices him on Normal/Hard and leaves him near death on Lunatic. If she doesn't she chunks 40-50% of his HP. Great? Not compared to like, Ryoma or whatever. But it's not bad.

Edited August 21, 2016 by Renall

[PuffPuff]

I really think Rinkah suffers from expectations more than anything. People think she's the equivalent of either knight or fighter, when she's neither. I'm

Also dodge tanking is THE most unreliable form of tanking, ever. I've had enemies hit me with a 5% chance. It happens okay.

BR actually has lots of decent dodge tanks, but still so unreliable.

Drped RNG even allows 90ish chances to miss often. The RNG behaves mirrorly like FE's 5&6. The truth to how the RNG works is here...

(I actually can't find it...but it's in the Fates section somewhere where they discuss the true hit rates of the RNG in this game.

[Shadow Mir]

This game itself needs Miracle and Vantage more than anything.

Vantage isn't that good in this game - being in Vantage range is tantamount to playing Russian roulette because of the low HP values units in this game tend to have. Also, most of the units that get Vantage are frail, meaning one good hit once they're that low, and it's hasta la vista.

[Blademaster_Aio]

Drped RNG even allows 90ish chances to miss often. The RNG behaves mirrorly like FE's 5&6. The truth to how the RNG works is here...

(I actually can't find it...but it's in the Fates section somewhere where they discuss the true hit rates of the RNG in this game.

Yeah, I think I read that somewhere also. But my logic is, if it's not 100% or 0% it's not sure. So plan around it. I mean, I've dodged 80% hits also, so I guess it's cruel to everyone, enemies and players.

[Emerson]

Drped RNG even allows 90ish chances to miss often. The RNG behaves mirrorly like FE's 5&6. The truth to how the RNG works is here...

(I actually can't find it...but it's in the Fates section somewhere where they discuss the true hit rates of the RNG in this game.

I was under the impression that True Hit didn't exist in Fates, or was extremely dumbed down.

Either way, Dodge-Tanking is still the least reliable way to Tank in every FE game. RNG is a thing of mystery. Pain and suffering can happen as easily as good fortune.

Although, this is getting off topic a little.

Vantage isn't that good in this game - being in Vantage range is tantamount to playing Russian roulette because of the low HP values units in this game tend to have. Also, most of the units that get Vantage are frail, meaning one good hit once they're that low, and it's hasta la vista.

Tanks, or generally people with decent Defense, can use it very well. I'd actually say it's very worth it to put Vantage on someone who can take hits. In fact, Rinkah can make excellent use of it. With her low HP, she reaches the threshold somewhat quickly, and with her Defense allowing her to not mind being at half health and her Personal Skill synergising very well with being at less that full HP, she can actually make Vantage an extremely useful skill. Not as good as Scarlet can with her PS and Awakening, but not bad.

I don't think you understood my point. I agree with you, her Avoid is unreliable and so there's no reason to worry about it. What I mean is you should account for this, assume she'll always get hit, and calculate based on her concrete durability. If you do this she shouldn't be randomly dying even with the Bolt Axe.

EDIT: Also it's worth noting Rinkah WANTS to get hit, even if only for chip damage, because she wants her personal active ASAP if she's tanking. So putting her Avoid in the toilet somewhat ironically makes her better as long as she can take the hits, as she'll take 1-3 damage or something and then Fiery Blood is contributing 4-8 extra damage per combat, which ain't peanuts.

Ah, I gotcha. That makes much more sense.

[Dragonslayer9x]

I primarily used Rinkah as bait and would heal her enough to keep her alive but not enough to give her full hp. She was a main part of my birthright team that functioned as a good damage soak that could weaken enemy units after they smashed against her biceps. While she wasn't a flashy unit that was able to solo things she gave my staff users a steady stream of exp that helped with the early game and could survive purely off of a unit with Amaterasu in the late game and let all my units eat up the free morsels of exp she left behind from not killing anything outright.

[PuffPuff]

I don't think you understood my point. I agree with you, her Avoid is unreliable and so there's no reason to worry about it. What I mean is you should account for this, assume she'll always get hit, and calculate based on her concrete durability. If you do this she shouldn't be randomly dying even with the Bolt Axe.

EDIT: Also it's worth noting Rinkah WANTS to get hit, even if only for chip damage, because she wants her personal active ASAP if she's tanking. So putting her Avoid in the toilet somewhat ironically makes her better as long as she can take the hits, as she'll take 1-3 damage or something and then Fiery Blood is contributing 4-8 extra damage per combat, which ain't peanuts.

Tiger Spirit requires C Tomes which Rinkah will probably never have (Hayato is the Oni likely to be able to use Scrolls, Rinkah wants Axes), cuts her effective doubling by 2 (granted she's not that concerned), has WTD against Lances, 8 Mt, and it has a -5 Avoid penalty anyway. Bolt Axe is an Axe (so it continues to build her Axe rank allowing her to switch off to physical Clubs if necessary), has WTA on Lances, and 14 Mt. That is a huge difference if you aren't forging a Tiger Spirit, and you'd need a +3 Tiger Spirit to pull even on Mt: That's 8 Tiger Spirits or 16000G vs. the Bolt Axe that drops in BR14 for free and basically can't be used by anybody else except Scarlet, who has much better things to do (though she does start at C Axes and could use it).

The entire point of the Bolt Axe is to give Rinkah a relatively inexpensive and uncompetitive niche if you intend to use her; there's not much competition for one Spirit Dust and a Bolt Axe almost nobody can use but her, and it lets her be a solid physical tank who dodges nothing but soaks physical hits well and counters at 1-2 range with Res-targeting damage. That's not the best, but it's at least the least resource-competitive thing Rinkah can do to establish herself in the midgame, and it's pretty unique outside of Chieftain Hayato (who has his own issues, and is barely any better on the Res front unless he remains a Diviner and then his Def sucks).

EDIT: To give an example, if Rinkah never once procs Mag growth then as an Oni Chieftain with a Spirit Dust she has 8 Mag which is 26 Atk with the Bolt Axe after Fiery Blood is active. That's as bad as she can possibly be with that setup. Any Mag growth procs, any Pair Ups, any tonics or meals make that better. But even at that point it's not bad for that point in the game; the boss of BR15 has 15 Def compared to just 6 Res, so Rinkah is doing 20 damage per swing, can attack him at 2 range which prevents him from counterattacking her, and if she doubles (which is somewhat unlikely, but she shouldn't get doubled) she ices him on Normal/Hard and leaves him near death on Lunatic. If she doesn't she chunks 40-50% of his HP. Great? Not compared to like, Ryoma or whatever. But it's not bad.

Not what I call reliable if she has shit HP to begin with. -.-

But...she can do well with a Brass Club...even non forged.

Worth the investment since gold isn't an issue on Hoshido.

I would not try it around Mages, or anyone being thrown high critical rates around you since Zerkers are endgame common on this and the Nohrian paths. That -20 avoid should always be taken into account.

Vantage isn't that good in this game - being in Vantage range is tantamount to playing Russian roulette because of the low HP values units in this game tend to have. Also, most of the units that get Vantage are frail, meaning one good hit once they're that low, and it's hasta la vista.

It's not with the Sol and Vantage combo. My Ryoma took out endgame Lunatic on Hoshido without dying and he could easily be two rounded by many of the Berserkers. The AI loves to charge them full force at the endgame maps as well. Gonna wish you had this combo when the AI goes aggro with these powerful units. Love his invincibility. He wasn't like this as this is from my Revelations file. But...he was given these same skills. :D

Vantage also is broken along with Vengeance skill with Awakening. These are to discuss Pvp wise. But...in game other than the Sol+Vantage combo, well...

Edited August 21, 2016 by PuffPuff

[Shadow Mir]

It's not with the Sol and Vantage combo. My Ryoma took out endgame Lunatic on Hoshido without dying and he could easily be two rounded by many of the Berserkers. The AI loves to charge them full force at the endgame maps as well. Gonna wish you had this combo when the AI goes aggro with these powerful units. Love his invincibility. He wasn't like this as this is from my Revelations file. But...he was given these same skills. :D

Vantage also is broken along with Vengeance skill with Awakening. These are to discuss Pvp wise. But...in game other than the Sol+Vantage combo, well...

That would be nice if Sol was reliable, which it ain't. Also, to put it bluntly, I do NOT see Ryoma as the god of war you're hyping him up to be, but that's neither here nor there.

Edited August 21, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[guedesbrawl]

I think she'd be fine with D Axes to start. She's screwed over by being a pre-routesplit unit so for some reason they gave her E (even though Kaze gets D Hidden) with no feasible way to reach D in the two maps she's available. Her tankiness + personal + faster C means Steel Clubs for extra punch and immediate access to the Bolt Axe once it shows up (and who else are you giving it to in Birthright?). Having D Axes in Revelation would at least allow her to wield an Iron Axe right away, which is at least better than a Brass Club.

She's not fantastic but fix her base weapon rank and at least she's not in Bronze Hell right out of the gate.

Wrong. While she would be fine with that buff, you can easily get to D rank in chapter 7 thanks to the amount of stuff she will have to tank on the doorway outside of the heal tiles.

D rank comes in time for throwing club. Steel Club is a bad and forged bronze, if not iron, would be a better plan. in Lunatic, rinkah should be close to capping B rank if not already having it by the time Bolt Axe shows up

[Aggro Incarnate]

I feel like what really screws up Rinkah are the tutorial chapters, particularly Chapter 5. That map just screams "Use Rinkah as a pair-up bot for Kaze".

Rinkah

- has weapon triangle disadvantage from the dark mages and the mercenaries (leading to nerfed damage and accuracy)

- is locked to 1-range with E-rank in Clubs

- gets potentially doubled by the paired-up mercenaries

- has low resistance against tomes.

Kaze on the other hand

- has weapon triangle advantage against them

- has 1-2 range without penalty which also debuffs the enemy

- has high speed and resistance.

Furthermore,

- Anyone who isn't dragon Corrin doesn't really want to get hit by the paired-up mercenary, and compounded by the weapon triangle disadvantage and the mages targeting resistance, Rinkah's higher defense doesn't really matter in the chapter.

- Kaze with a Rinkah pair-up can reliably 2HKO the mages and the mercs (perhaps even 1HKO given a good strength RNG) since their defense isn't that great; Rinkah's slightly higher base strength doesn't matter as she can't kill mages and mercs better than Kaze even with pair-up from any of the units in that chapter.

She's a bit better in Chapter 4, but even with Seal Strength / Defense on Faceless, Kaze has range, debuffing and better accuracy, and the extra strength and defense from using her as a pair-up bot is easier than trying to use all three as direct combat units.

Also in Birthright Chapter 6, she has weapon triangle advantage against... NONE of the units in that map.

- Leo (Brynhildr)

- Camilla (Fire / Iron Axe)

- Xander (Siegfried)

- generic Fighter (Iron Axe)

- generic Cavalier (Iron Sword)

- generic Outlaw (Iron Bow)

- Elise (no weapons equipped)

She's also in a sense hurt by her excellence in being a pair-up bot: not only is +4 STR and +2 DEF are fantastic, she can be traded around as a pair-up bot to give pretty much every attack that buff in Ch.6 since it's a really cramped map; it's usually as good as the damage she'll do while dual-striking, and the extra +10 hit one'll get from dual strikes as opposed to pair-up doesn't really matter if one makes good use of weapon triangle advantage. Being relegated to pair-up duty means... less exp for her. Plus due to no weapon triangle advantage she has mediocre hit chance against them as well, and... so many odds are against her in the early game. By the time one reaches Birthright chapter 7, she's likely to be behind others without conscious extra effort. THE ENTIRE EARLY GAME is against her.

Perhaps up to this point, this might have been a rather obvious argument for how Kaze fairs much better than Rinkah in the tutorial chapters. Well here's the thing. Kaze can easily reach C-rank in Shuriken and up to level 9-10 through Chapters 4 and 5, but trying to pull something close to that with Rinkah makes that map considerably less reliable and more lengthy, and so it comes across as a more efficient choice to snowball exp to the ninja instead. This compounded with her slightly mediocre bases and growths (while salvageable in Birthright due to them being not that bad and the relatively easy nature of the route) makes her pale in comparison to most of the remaining cast. And it just gets worse in Revelations because of the high baseline defense of enemies in Chapter 9 (Fuga's Mild Ride), her re-join chapter, against her lacking HP, strength, speed and even defense.

She does have good base and secondary classes though, I'll give her that.

TL:DR - She's not a terrible unit, but the early game design compounded with her mediocre base/growth build gimps her.

Edited August 21, 2016 by Aggro Incarnate

[Ownagepuffs]

Rinka is not bad. She just needs some love.

HP is not a concern; if an enemy has 20 Atk and she has like 15 Def and 30 HP, it still takes 6 rounds of combat for said enemy to down her.

[Renall]

Steel vs. forged Brass/Iron is a pretty rough comparison for Clubs. It takes a +2 Brass/Iron to match Steel, which isn't a terrible investment but it's one you'd be making more or less exclusively for Rinkah. It's not like a +2 Iron Katana/Naginata where multiple people can pass it around.

The point is not to sandbag Rinkah but to try not to put her in a situation where someone can turn around and say "Yeah Rinkah's OK but only if you waste a bunch of resources on her." She can be OK, and the resources it takes to make her that way aren't really that bad. She'd appreciate a +1/+2 Iron forge but the question is whether she can become reasonably viable without spending a lot of money. And the answer is more or less yes, as long as she's used, as there are a few droppables that aren't in huge competition.

Wrong. While she would be fine with that buff, you can easily get to D rank in chapter 7 thanks to the amount of stuff she will have to tank on the doorway outside of the heal tiles.

D rank comes in time for throwing club. Steel Club is a bad and forged bronze, if not iron, would be a better plan. in Lunatic, rinkah should be close to capping B rank if not already having it by the time Bolt Axe shows up

"There is no feasible way for her to reach D before the route split."

"Actually you can reach D in Chapter 7."

Chapter 7 is not before the route split. My point is they gave her E Axe presumably because she's such an early unit, but then made it incredibly difficult for her to actually leverage her weapon rank in Chapters 4 & 5. So she may as well have just started at D, that way if you had trouble making use of her -- which isn't impossible given YOLO Ryoma in 4 and the enemy composition in 5 -- she wouldn't be so badly behind. She'd have Iron/Throwing access from the start and would just be a little less kludgey to use, and her brief absence in Revelation might not be as intolerable.

It doesn't kill her, it's just annoying and she might get crapped on by people less often if she started at D in her base class's favored weapon type as a lot of characters do.

[guedesbrawl]

Steel vs. forged Brass/Iron is a pretty rough comparison for Clubs. It takes a +2 Brass/Iron to match Steel, which isn't a terrible investment but it's one you'd be making more or less exclusively for Rinkah. It's not like a +2 Iron Katana/Naginata where multiple people can pass it around.

The point is not to sandbag Rinkah but to try not to put her in a situation where someone can turn around and say "Yeah Rinkah's OK but only if you waste a bunch of resources on her." She can be OK, and the resources it takes to make her that way aren't really that bad. She'd appreciate a +1/+2 Iron forge but the question is whether she can become reasonably viable without spending a lot of money. And the answer is more or less yes, as long as she's used, as there are a few droppables that aren't in huge competition.

"There is no feasible way for her to reach D before the route split."

"Actually you can reach D in Chapter 7."

Chapter 7 is not before the route split. My point is they gave her E Axe presumably because she's such an early unit, but then made it incredibly difficult for her to actually leverage her weapon rank in Chapters 4 & 5. So she may as well have just started at D, that way if you had trouble making use of her -- which isn't impossible given YOLO Ryoma in 4 and the enemy composition in 5 -- she wouldn't be so badly behind. She'd have Iron/Throwing access from the start and would just be a little less kludgey to use, and her brief absence in Revelation might not be as intolerable.

It doesn't kill her, it's just annoying and she might get crapped on by people less often if she started at D in her base class's favored weapon type as a lot of characters do.

Okay, i didn't see the pre-split conditional.

But weapon rank is such a minor problem for Rinkah that it might as well not even be a problem. At least in BR; i haven't played REV yet.

Rinkah needs the earlygame Seraph Robe. That's the only investment she truly needs to work. Everything else is optional--helpful but not super needed.

[Emerson]

"There is no feasible way for her to reach D before the route split."

"Actually you can reach D in Chapter 7."

Chapter 7 is not before the route split. My point is they gave her E Axe presumably because she's such an early unit, but then made it incredibly difficult for her to actually leverage her weapon rank in Chapters 4 & 5. So she may as well have just started at D, that way if you had trouble making use of her -- which isn't impossible given YOLO Ryoma in 4 and the enemy composition in 5 -- she wouldn't be so badly behind. She'd have Iron/Throwing access from the start and would just be a little less kludgey to use, and her brief absence in Revelation might not be as intolerable.

It doesn't kill her, it's just annoying and she might get crapped on by people less often if she started at D in her base class's favored weapon type as a lot of characters do.

You guys are hyping up D rank Axes too much. Iron Club only gives her one more Might.

Anyways, I started my Lunatic Birthright playthough, and due to her good Defense, she tanked some of the charging enemies in Chapter 7 and managed to get her D rank mid chapter without much action in chapters 4 or 5. I will say, she came down to lowish health sometimes thanks to her bad HP, but Sakura always topped her off right after. Also I got a little Strength blessed but that's besides the point.

My point being is that it's not hard to get her to D Rank Axes/Clubs. Even once you do, she doesn't really need it anyways since she only gets to do 2 more damage and can still tank just as well. C Rank is where things get interesting with Great Club and Bolt Axe.

[Shadow Mir]

You guys are hyping up D rank Axes too much. Iron Club only gives her one more Might.

Anyways, I started my Lunatic Birthright playthough, and due to her good Defense, she tanked some of the charging enemies in Chapter 7 and managed to get her D rank mid chapter without much action in chapters 4 or 5. I will say, she came down to lowish health sometimes thanks to her bad HP, but Sakura always topped her off right after. Also I got a little Strength blessed but that's besides the point.

My point being is that it's not hard to get her to D Rank Axes/Clubs. Even once you do, she doesn't really need it anyways since she only gets to do 2 more damage and can still tank just as well. C Rank is where things get interesting with Great Club and Bolt Axe.

I don't really consider either of those weapons that good, ESPECIALLY the Mediocre Club.

20% personal, not great but not abysmal either; Sakura has the same, as does Hayato, and Hinata only has 15%. It's mostly that Rinkah has a garbage base (3 to Sakura's 7) and Oni Savages are supposed to be weak to magic (0% class growth for Savage and Blacksmith, 5% for Chieftain). Hoshidan classes other than Oni and Archer have semi-decent Resistance growths so Rinkah should be pretty savagely (heh) weak to magic.

By comparison, Oboro has a base of 8, a base growth of 30%, 5% from Spear Fighter, and access to the Guard Naginata for an immediate +5 Res. She's got a 10 Res lead on Rinkah just from bases which Rinkah is not making up in the time between her joining and Oboro joining. However, Rinkah has like a +15% growth advantage in Def and a deficiency of just 3 in terms of bases, so she'll probably tie Oboro for Def and exceed her pretty quick to make up the Guard Naginata difference, so she should be comparably durable or more durable than Oboro against physical hits.

Also Oni Chieftain Rinkah can tank Lances and counterattack with the Bolt Axe which allows her to hit Res (and thus apply her personal to magic damage). That's her edge over Oboro I think: Tanks physical hits comparably or slightly better and whacks the shit out of physical lance classes with Bolt Axe WTA, not as good an all-rounder tank due to lack of Guard Naginata access and shit Res.

It's a bit of an odd niche but I don't think it's unviable either.

What physical lance classes are there that get ruined by Bolt Axe and don't have other weapon options that are just as, if not more effective at wrecking their shit? The only classes that come to mind in that regard are Hoshidan classes.

[eclipse]

You guys are hyping up D rank Axes too much. Iron Club only gives her one more Might.

It also gives the ability to crit, which is what the club line is made for. For straight-up MT, that's Iron Axe (Revelation only).

[Renall]

There are plenty of Cavaliers/Paladins/Great Knights in Birthright. Some also carry Swords but not all do, and if they swap to Swords they lower their Attack, which a physical tank rarely minds. Knights/Generals as well, who are among a Bolt Axe user's prime targets: High Def, low to average Res, attacks physically, cannot get WTA on Axes; at best they have Axes themselves, but Lances are more commonplace. The Hammer also wrecks Knights/Generals, but (1) Rinkah's Strength growth is spotty but her Magic doesn't have to be that great to be effective, (2) Scarlet makes better use of the Hammer since her personal relates to Crit and she has better Strength, and (3) you don't really have to choose because each of them can use one of the two weapons if you're using both of them.

There are also quite a lot of Faceless in Birthright, who have godawful Res and only do physical damage at 1 range. Stoneborn also have terrible Res. So there is something to hitting Res when you could otherwise hit Def, and of the Axe users available in BR Rinkah is the one least wanting to lean on her Str.

[guedesbrawl]

Also I got a little Strength blessed but that's besides the point.

I got a Ryoma's Club my first time through before C7. Happy times, with that WTA from Rinkah...

What physical lance classes are there that get ruined by Bolt Axe and don't have other weapon options that are just as, if not more effective at wrecking their shit? The only classes that come to mind in that regard are Hoshidan classes.

It depends. The units Rinkah is good at dealing with are Armors, Wyverns and Paladins (a little less but eh). Offensively, there are usually better options that due to effective damage end up ORKO'ing if not OHKO'ing while the bolt axe usually doesn't get the job done.

But defensively (preparing for enemy phase), well...

Corrin should stick to Dragonstone over Armorslayer.

Hana doesn't survive Enemy Phase unless given a Seraph Robe. Bad idea nonetheless

Hinata probably can manage armoslayer tanking as long as the kills don't make him see too much combat in one EP due to the mix of strong 1-range units and 1-2 ranged units lategame.

Ryoma doesn't have Hinata's bulk so he can't pull that off very well with an Armorslayer...

Lance users are better off tanking with Guard Naginata than eating a strong counterattack and possibly paving the way for more enemies by killing in EP, besides maybe GK!Silas.

Archers... well, you COULD probably survive a wyvern lord's silver axe with a 1-2 Bow using Takumi, but... really?

All of that is assuming the enemy in question is stuck at 1-range. The last scenario gets a little better with 2-range in play but still, you will be eating counterattacks without any retaliation from your part if you go for effective damage in EP.

However, nothing stops you from tanking with Rinkah, but leaving it to an unit that has an effective weapon to dual strike off of her (or just a magic user, in most of those cases. Especially since Onmyoji can Rally Magic Rinkah...)

[guedesbrawl]

There are plenty of Cavaliers/Paladins/Great Knights in Birthright. Some also carry Swords but not all do, and if they swap to Swords they lower their Attack, which a physical tank rarely minds. Knights/Generals as well, who are among a Bolt Axe user's prime targets: High Def, low to average Res, attacks physically, cannot get WTA on Axes; at best they have Axes themselves, but Lances are more commonplace. The Hammer also wrecks Knights/Generals, but (1) Rinkah's Strength growth is spotty but her Magic doesn't have to be that great to be effective, (2) Scarlet makes better use of the Hammer since her personal relates to Crit and she has better Strength, and (3) you don't really have to choose because each of them can use one of the two weapons if you're using both of them.

There are also quite a lot of Faceless in Birthright, who have godawful Res and only do physical damage at 1 range. Stoneborn also have terrible Res. So there is something to hitting Res when you could otherwise hit Def, and of the Axe users available in BR Rinkah is the one least wanting to lean on her Str.

Betting on criticals aside, does scarlet outright one-shot generals with the Hammer? Otherwise they are the same.

And Stoneborns are another thing Rinkah is good at dealing with! She also is not great at attacking them, but Bow-users can be effectively baited by Rinkah.

[Emerson]

Betting on criticals aside, does scarlet outright one-shot generals with the Hammer? Otherwise they are the same.

Scarlet can use the Hammer to most likely ORKO, but Rinkah doesn't need to switch off from the Bolt Axe unlike Scarlet who would need to have someone swap her weapon around to do damage during enemy phase. Rinkah can also use it to attack at 2 Range, putting her another spot over Scarlet in that sense. But Scarlet does have much more consistent Strength, 10% more HP growth and can fly, so she fills a slightly different niche. Doesn't mean either of them are worse than the other, but Rinkah has a lot more potential as a tank, while Scarlet can come in and do some heavy damage before pulling back to get heals. Plus, Rinkah's not weak to Bows or Dragon-effective Weapons (Wyrmslayer and Dragon Spirit).

[Shadow Mir]

It depends. The units Rinkah is good at dealing with are Armors, Wyverns and Paladins (a little less but eh). Offensively, there are usually better options that due to effective damage end up ORKO'ing if not OHKO'ing while the bolt axe usually doesn't get the job done.

But defensively (preparing for enemy phase), well...

Corrin should stick to Dragonstone over Armorslayer.

Hana doesn't survive Enemy Phase unless given a Seraph Robe. Bad idea nonetheless

Hinata probably can manage armoslayer tanking as long as the kills don't make him see too much combat in one EP due to the mix of strong 1-range units and 1-2 ranged units lategame.

Ryoma doesn't have Hinata's bulk so he can't pull that off very well with an Armorslayer...

Lance users are better off tanking with Guard Naginata than eating a strong counterattack and possibly paving the way for more enemies by killing in EP, besides maybe GK!Silas.

Archers... well, you COULD probably survive a wyvern lord's silver axe with a 1-2 Bow using Takumi, but... really?

All of that is assuming the enemy in question is stuck at 1-range. The last scenario gets a little better with 2-range in play but still, you will be eating counterattacks without any retaliation from your part if you go for effective damage in EP.

However, nothing stops you from tanking with Rinkah, but leaving it to an unit that has an effective weapon to dual strike off of her (or just a magic user, in most of those cases. Especially since Onmyoji can Rally Magic Rinkah...)

Bold: There's only one 1-2 bow, and it's pretty bad.

The rest: Most Wyverns use Axes or tomes (Malig Knights actually have Res scores to speak of, too). Armours are ruined by Hammertime. Paladins actually have decent-ish Res, IIRC.

Also, having one of my better magic attackers blow their turn so Rinkah's Bolt Axe damage isn't laughable? Really??? I don't know whether you're trying too hard or hardly trying.

There are plenty of Cavaliers/Paladins/Great Knights in Birthright. Some also carry Swords but not all do, and if they swap to Swords they lower their Attack, which a physical tank rarely minds. Knights/Generals as well, who are among a Bolt Axe user's prime targets: High Def, low to average Res, attacks physically, cannot get WTA on Axes; at best they have Axes themselves, but Lances are more commonplace. The Hammer also wrecks Knights/Generals, but (1) Rinkah's Strength growth is spotty but her Magic doesn't have to be that great to be effective, (2) Scarlet makes better use of the Hammer since her personal relates to Crit and she has better Strength, and (3) you don't really have to choose because each of them can use one of the two weapons if you're using both of them.

There are also quite a lot of Faceless in Birthright, who have godawful Res and only do physical damage at 1 range. Stoneborn also have terrible Res. So there is something to hitting Res when you could otherwise hit Def, and of the Axe users available in BR Rinkah is the one least wanting to lean on her Str.

Why bother with the Bolt Axe when the Hammer's more effective, and armors tend to hurt like hell if they hit, which the Bolt Axe makes more likely to happen?? Also, Stoneborn appear in all of one chapter in BR that isn't endgame.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Emerson]

Why bother with the Bolt Axe when the Hammer's more effective, and armors tend to hurt like hell if they hit, which the Bolt Axe makes more likely to happen?? Also, Stoneborn appear in all of one chapter in BR that isn't endgame.

The Bolt Axe has more Might, targets their weaker Defensive stat, and has 1-2 Range meaning you can be safe on Player Phase where the Hammer's low Might means you may have to Double to kill unless your unit's Strength can offset this which I find neither Scarlet nor Rinkah can.

[Renall]

Why bother with the Bolt Axe when one Throwing Club hit does more damage than two Bolt Axe hits? the Hammer's more effective, and armors tend to hurt like hell if they hit, which the Bolt Axe makes more likely to happen?? Also, Stoneborn appear in all of one chapter in BR that isn't endgame.

1. Getting hit by physical stuff is one of the few things Rinkah is never that worried about given 10 base and a 65% growth. She's relatively tanky as long as magic isn't targeting her poor HP/Res, and that's her major weakness as a character moreso than her damage potential which can be boosted by Axe/Club base Mt, her personal, and options like the Bolt Axe, Great Club, and Hammer.
2. The Hammer doesn't have 2 range and Javelin Generals exist.
3. I'm pretty sure you can't back up your claim that a 6 Mt weapon that can't double and increases enemy doubling thresholds will do more damage than a 14 Mt weapon that can double and hits Res on a character with a 25% personal Str growth, which is why you erased it and jumped on the Hammer again. The Hammer may be as effective or more effective for Rinkah at times, but Scarlet also wants it. Scarlet doesn't want the Bolt Axe because she has 4 Mag base at --/1 and lower Mag growth than Rinkah unless she's in Malig Knight, and lower Def growth to make up for the Avoid penalty (though Scarlet's base Def is quite good).

[Shadow Mir]

The Bolt Axe has more Might, targets their weaker Defensive stat, and has 1-2 Range meaning you can be safe on Player Phase where the Hammer's low Might means you may have to Double to kill unless your unit's Strength can offset this which I find neither Scarlet nor Rinkah can.

What's this about the Hammer having low Mt?

1. Getting hit by physical stuff is one of the few things Rinkah is never that worried about given 10 base and a 65% growth. She's relatively tanky as long as magic isn't targeting her poor HP/Res, and that's her major weakness as a character moreso than her damage potential which can be boosted by Axe/Club base Mt, her personal, and options like the Bolt Axe, Great Club, and Hammer.
3. The Hammer doesn't have 2 range and Javelin Generals exist.
5. I'm pretty sure you can't back up your claim that a 6 Mt weapon that can't double and increases enemy doubling thresholds will do more damage than a 14 Mt weapon that can double and hits Res on a character with a 25% personal Str growth, which is why you erased it and jumped on the Hammer again. The Hammer may be as effective or more effective for Rinkah at times, but Scarlet also wants it. Scarlet doesn't want the Bolt Axe because she has 4 Mag base at --/1 and lower Mag growth than Rinkah unless she's in Malig Knight, and lower Def growth to make up for the Avoid penalty (though Scarlet's base Def is quite good).

1. I really don't understand why you put any stock in the Not-So-Great Club - it can't hit worth a damn with 45 base hit, and the crit evade drop is a dealbreaker.

2: Fair enough, I guess.

3: Yeah, I kinda realized that my claim wouldn't hold water after the fact. Anyways, even without the Hammer, I'd rather use one of my mages to maim Generals, than merely leave them about half dead with the Bolt Axe...