Eldigan isn't a bad Camus

[Rinehart]

I've seen a lot of people say that Eldigan is the worst of the Camus archetypes. I don't agree with this statement at all; in fact, I would go so far as to say that he is actually a good character.

The main flaw that most people find with Eldigan is that he stays loyal to a tyrannical and abusive king. While this is definitely a correct characterization of Chagall, it is actually no worse than the majority of the various different rulers in Jugdral. Leptor and Langbart in Grandbell are extremely corrupt and actively conspiring against the throne; Verdane is widely recognized as a country of lawless barbarians; Silesia is undergoing an internal power struggle between brothers who wouldn't hesitate to even kill each other; Issac is in the middle of a hopeless war caused by a rogue army; the Manster District is being corrupted from within by Reidric; Thracia's king is ruthless and willing to commit war crimes for his country. During this time period, Jugdral is basically a cesspool of corruption and political intrigue. Agustria is no different.

On top of this, Agustria's relationship with Grandbell is already extremely tense, especially after Sigurd takes over Verdane. "The lords of Agustria expressed strong anti-Grandbell sentiment." (Chapter 2) Eldigan may be friends with Sigurd, but his loyalty is above all to the country of Agustria, not only because of his personality but also because the history of the Mystletainn binds him to the crown: http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Nordion

Furthermore, Grandbell's occupation of Agustria did not sit well with the citizens. "In a half year's time, the officials dispatched to Agustria became exceedingly reckless, and began to abuse the power they were entrusted with." (Chapter 3) For a foreign country to invade you because your own rulers are corrupt, only to turn around and apply the same corrupt practices themselves, would certainly cause the population of Agustria to hate Grandbell even more. Sigurd may not have had a part in it, but as far as Eldigan is concerned, Sigurd represents Grandbell and is responsible for his country's actions. The fact that Sigurd wipes out Agustria's lords and takes on bandits in the name of justice, yet is incapable or unwilling to do anything about Grandbell's own corrupt officials in the country, is surely hypocritical in Eldigan's view.

I don't think Eldigan ever lost his trust in Sigurd, but he simply got tired of the excuses. "Sigurd, I've heard enough." (Chapter 3) To Eldigan, while Chagall may be an incompetent idiot, this is no worse than being slowly suffocated to death by Grandbell's occupation. And as a loyal knight, he is unwilling to defect or otherwise abandon his country.

Eldigan fits perfectly in the first generation of Holy War; he's a tragic character in a tragic game.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Rinehart

[FionordeQuester]

I've seen a lot of people say that Eldigan is the worst of the Camus archetypes. I don't agree with this statement at all; in fact, I would go so far as to say that he is actually a good character.

The main flaw that most people find with Eldigan is that he stays loyal to a tyrannical and abusive king. While this is definitely a correct characterization of Chagall, it is actually no worse than the majority of the various different rulers in Jugdral. Leptor and Langbart in Grandbell are extremely corrupt and actively conspiring against the throne; Verdane is widely recognized as a country of lawless barbarians; Silesia is undergoing an internal power struggle between brothers who wouldn't hesitate to even kill each other; Issac is in the middle of a hopeless war caused by a rogue army; Thracia's king is ruthless and willing to commit war crimes for his country. During this time period, Jugdral is basically a cesspool of corruption and political intrigue. Agustria is no different.

On top of this, Agustria's relationship with Grandbell is extremely tense, especially after Sigurd takes over Verdane. "The lords of Agustria expressed strong anti-Grannvale sentiment." (Chapter 2) Eldigan may be friends with Sigurd, but his loyalty is above all to the country of Agustria, not only because of his personality but also because the history of the Mystletainn binds him to the crown.

Furthermore, Grandbell's occupation of Agustria did not sit well with the citizens. "In a half year's time, the officials dispatched to Agustria became exceedingly reckless, and began to abuse the power they were entrusted with." (Chapter 3) For a foreign country to invade you because your own rulers are corrupt, only to turn around and apply the same corrupt practices themselves, would certainly cause the population to hate Grandbell even more. Sigurd may not have had a part in it, but as far as Eldigan is concerned, Sigurd represents Grandbell and is responsible for his country's actions. The fact that Sigurd wipes out Agustria's lords and takes on bandits in the name of justice, yet is incapable or unwilling to do anything about Grandbell's own corrupt officials, is surely hypocritical in Eldigan's view.

I don't think Eldigan ever lost his trust in Sigurd, but he simply got tired of the excuses. "Sigurd, I've heard enough." (Chapter 3) To Eldigan, while Chagall may be an incompetent idiot, he is no worse than being slowly suffocated to death by Grandbell's occupation.

Eldigan fits perfectly in the first generation of Holy War; he's a tragic character in a tragic game.

That's...actually a pretty interesting perspective. The only counter-argument I could think of to that is: "Why not become king himself, then? A rulership under Chagall probably wouldn't be any different; it's not as though he has a good relationship with Grannvale, after all".

Edited August 20, 2016 by FionordeQuester

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

very good read, but like the above post I'm not sure why he couldn't just become King himself, i'm sure he'd have no issue gathering loyal men to fight for him, and he has a legendary sword which would alone make it tough for most of chagall's forces (that still remain loyal to him, i'm sure some would've defected) to handle him.

[FionordeQuester]

Plus, Eldigan himself was the commander of the Cross Knights, the supreme military force in Agustria. Shagaal himself was relying mainly on mercenary forces by the time Chapter 3 started, so it doesn't seem like he was very popular with any of the soldiers that were left in Agustria.

Edited August 20, 2016 by FionordeQuester

[Rinehart]

Eldigan can't kill Chagall and take the throne for himself just because he doesn't like the king - that would not only plunge the country into chaos as ordinary citizens probably don't know enough to see it as more than a bloody coup, but also Eldigan would morally be no better than Chagall himself (who killed his father to take the throne). Nodion was given the Mystletainn to protect the royal family regardless of politics; if Eldigan breaks this oath, he will lose all credibility.

Chagall may be a tyrannical idiot, but he's pretty normal as far as rulers in Jugdral were at the time. Starting a civil war to overthrow him probably wouldn't have ended well.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Rinehart

[FionordeQuester]

Eldigan can't kill Chagall and take the throne for himself

Who says that Eldigan has to kill him? They still have jails; Eldigan could have him jailed for killing his father. Convincing the populace that he did so certainly wouldn't be a problem. Just look at this bit of NPC dialogue in Chapter 3...

(sigh…) My boyfriend was killed in this cursed war. This is all Gran[nvale's]… No! This is all King [Ch]aga[l]l’s fault!!

Even after everything the Grannvalian bureaucrats put them through, she was still more angry at [C]haga[l]l than at Grannvale, and I think that's saying something.

Edited August 20, 2016 by FionordeQuester

[Rinehart]

Who says that Eltshan has to kill him? They still have jails; Eltshan could have him jailed for killing his father. Convincing the populace that he did so certainly wouldn't be a problem; after all, we have this bit of NPC dialogue in Chapter 3...

(sigh…) My boyfriend was killed in this cursed war. This is all Grandbell’s… No! This is all King Shagaal’s fault!!

Even after everything the Grannvalian bureaucrats put them through, she was still more angry at Shagaal than at Grandbell, and I think that's saying something.

That girl's boyfriend was in the Cross Knights, who were loyal to Eldigan. All the town dialogue happens with a member of your army, so you have to take it with a grain of salt. Another example of this is in For Whose Sake, where the opening narration says that the citizens of Thracia feared Seliph's army as an invading force, yet none of the town dialogue really gives that impression (you can interpret this as either the citizens being too scared to openly complain or that only the sympathetic ones are willing to talk to you).

Again, Nodion swore to protect the royal family with the Mystletainn. Overthrowing Chagall in any manner would have run strongly contrary to Eldigan's values, especially since in his view Chagall isn't even that bad compared to the Grandbell occupation. If the game were played from the Agustrian perspective, it wouldn't be difficult to frame Sigurd and the Grandbellians as the "bad guys". Even Levin says this when he first meets up with Sigurd: "I take it you’re that Sigurd guy. You must have an awful lot of free time to be runnin’ around startin’ wars all over the place! Try putting yourself into these people’s shoes for a second! They’re just tryin’ to make a livin’ here." (Chapter 2)

Edited August 20, 2016 by Rinehart

[FionordeQuester]

Overthrowing Chagall in any manner would have run strongly contrary to Eldigan's values...

And there's the crux of the issue. Eldigan could've made Agustria great again, but his personality prevented him from taking up the mantle. And even if there were some citizens that needed persuading...

Check out them Leadership stars, man. 5 Stars. Five whole stars; guy's got more charisma in his left ear than Chagall had in his entire body. And given how much the populace seemed to like him, I doubt he'd have trouble putting that into place. If nothing else, the Agustrians would be so desperate for a good leader, that they'd be willing to believe just about anything so long as Eldigan's reign brought them prosperity.

And he WOULD be in the perfect position to do that. He has an alibi thanks to Sigurd ("he wasn't a part of any of the insurrections against us! The guy was imprisoned while I was running around!). Plus, King Azmur himself put great value on him...

Sigurd: I usually try to keep our troops off foreign soil, but this time its unavoidable. I've already received King Azmur's approval to engage the enemy. His Majesty is aware of King Imuka's assassination by Shagaal's hand, as well as Shagaal's plans to invade Grandbell. His Majesty has also stressed the importance of Eltshan's rescue for future peace negotiations. Don't worry, Lachesis. I promise we'll get Eltshan out.

The worst challenge he would've had to face was all the gossip about him and Lachesis having an incestuous relationship.

Edited August 20, 2016 by FionordeQuester

[Rinehart]

And there's the crux of the issue. Eldigan could've made Agustria great again, but his personality prevented him from taking up the mantle. And even if there were some citizens that needed persuading...

Check out them Leadership stars, man. 5 Stars. Five whole stars; guy's got more charisma in his left ear than Chagall had in his entire body. And given how much the populace seemed to like him, I doubt he'd have trouble putting that into place. The worst challenge he would've had to face was all the gossip about him and Lachesis having an incestuous relationship.

I agree with you on Eldigan's charisma (see his speech to his soldiers right before engaging Sigurd's army), although I would say Leadership stars are more about a character's strategic value than actual leadership ability; Sigurd, widely hailed as a great and compassionate leader by his subordinates, has 2-star Leadership for the entirety of the first generation, while Cyas, who is a great tactician but not much of a leader, has 10-Star Leadership in Thracia 776 to reflect this.

Eldigan's biggest flaw is his adherence to old traditions, which causes him to be overly loyal to a scumbag king. This is exactly what makes a Camus archetype.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Rinehart

[FionordeQuester]

Eldigan's biggest flaw is his adherence to old traditions, which causes him to be overly loyal to a scumbag king. This is exactly what makes a Camus archetype.

Yeah...so he is definitely still wrong in some of the actions he took. But, you know what...your OP still made me re-evaluate my own criticisms of him. I'm planning on actually posting it in the LP threads I have up, both here and on Something Awful.

[Rinehart]

Yeah...so he is definitely still wrong in some of the actions he took. But, you know what...your OP still made me re-evaluate my own criticisms of him. I'm planning on actually posting it in the LP threads I have up, both here and on Something Awful.

Yeah, I'm not saying he made perfect decisions (Camus archetypes are all flawed for this reason). I just wanted to explain why I liked him as a character.

[_Erai]

People actually think Eldigan is a bad a Camus?

I mean, I see people shitting on Xander all the time, but not on Eldigan.

[Raguna]

People actually think Eldigan is a bad a Camus?

I mean, I see people shitting on Xander all the time, but not on Eldigan.

To be fair, people barely talk about Eldigan since his game never came out here, but I don't think Eldigan is the worst Camus. Eldigan was just the most noticeable and famed Camus aside from Camus himself. I'm actually curious how many people could call out any other Camus vividly without having to look at the wikia page.

[FionordeQuester]

To be fair, people barely talk about Eldigan since his game never came out here, but I don't think Eldigan is the worst Camus. Eldigan was just the most noticeable and famed Camus aside from Camus himself. I'm actually curious how many people could call out any other Camus vividly without having to look at the wikia page.

Hmmm...lessee...

FE2: King Rudolf maybe?

FE3: That guy who impaled himself on his sword in the very first chapter (Laurence?)

FE4: Eltshan, Eliza & Ishtor, Ishtar

FE5: Dunno; never played it

FE6: Brenya, arguably Murdock

FE7: Bernard (2nd boss in the Caelin revisit), Uhai, Lloyd

FE8: That...one blonde woman who was one of Grados's commanders.

FE9: That mini-boss in the final chapter that Ashnard revealed all his dirty laundrey to.

FE10: Arguably everyone on Micaiah's team. Maybe Dheginsea as well?

FE13: That one guy who was the brother of that samurai girl we recruit (Yon'fay, I think?)

Edited August 21, 2016 by FionordeQuester

[Rinehart]

To add to the above:

FE5: Paulus, Rinehart

FE8: Selena

FE9: Shiharam, Bryce

FE10: Dheginsea, Levail, Sephiran (when he doesn't join you)

[Rapier]

I don't think Eltshan is the type of person who'd be a king, despite being a lord (and presumably knowing how to handle his lands). He's more like a soldier than a ruler.

Also, correct me if I am wrong (which is probable since I'm rusty on FE4's script), but despite Eltshan having Hezul's blood and Mystletainn, he's not part of the royal family (iirc he's a very distant cousin at best) and not fit to inherit Agustria.

[DarkDestr0yer61]

To be fair, people barely talk about Eldigan since his game never came out here, but I don't think Eldigan is the worst Camus. Eldigan was just the most noticeable and famed Camus aside from Camus himself. I'm actually curious how many people could call out any other Camus vividly without having to look at the wikia page.

I forget what exactly makes a Camus.

FE 2: Rudolf? Sort of.

3 book 2: Wolf, Sedgar, and Vyland.

4: Eldigan, Ishtar

6: Gale

7: Lloyd and Linus

8: Selena

9: Bryce, Shiharim

10: Dheginsea, Levail

13: Mustafa, Yen'fay

14: Xander

[FionordeQuester]

I...don't agree with Linus being a Camus archtype; his deal was more that he was a meathead who let his desire for revenge consume him. I don't think the guy was really self-aware enough to count as a Camus.

Other than that though, I agree with the rest. So I guess the list so far would be...

2: King Rudolf (sort of)

3 (Book 2): Wolf, Zaggaro, and Vyland

4: Eldigan, Liza & Ishtor, Ishtar

5: Paulus, Rinehart

6: Gale, Brenya, and possibly Murdock

7: Bernard, Uhai, and Lloyd (maybe Linus, but I don't count him)

8: Selena

9: Shiharam, Bryce

10: Levail, Dheginsea, and Sephiran in some playthroughs

13: Mustafa, Yen'fay, possibly Micaiah's entire army (assuming that they die before Part 4)

14: Xander

Edited August 21, 2016 by FionordeQuester

[The Draco Knight]

People actually think Eldigan is a bad a Camus?

I mean, I see people shitting on Xander all the time, but not on Eldigan.

Mah boy, where have you been when many people kept calling Eldigan "dumb" because of his actions and thinks that he should have rebelled against Chagall?

I don't think Eltshan is the type of person who'd be a king, despite being a lord (and presumably knowing how to handle his lands). He's more like a soldier than a ruler.

Also, correct me if I am wrong (which is probable since I'm rusty on FE4's script), but despite Eltshan having Hezul's blood and Mystletainn, he's not part of the royal family (iirc he's a very distant cousin at best) and not fit to inherit Agustria.

Hezul was still the first king of Agustria and Eldigan's family descends from her younger daughter, who got the Hezul's major holy blood, so he is actually related to the royal family.

I forget what exactly makes a Camus.

FE 2: Rudolf? Sort of.

3 book 2: Wolf, Sedgar, and Vyland.

4: Eldigan, Ishtar

6: Gale

7: Lloyd and Linus

8: Selena

9: Bryce, Shiharim

10: Dheginsea, Levail

13: Mustafa, Yen'fay

14: Xander

Eh, a Camus is loyal to his king and country but knows that he is in the wrong: Wolf, Sedgar and Wyland actually tought that they were in the right as Hardin told them that Marth had some kind of evil objective(tough I don't what It was exactly), so I wouldn't consider them as Camus.

Mustafa doesn't fit the archetype as well, in my opinion: He doesn't fight against you becuase of his loyalty towards Gangrel and Plegia, but because Gangrel would kill his family.

And loyalty is probably one of the most important element for a character to have to be considered a Camus.

You are right about the other characters tough.

[Raguna]

I wasn't exactly issuing a challenge here, but I'm glad you all came by to point out your thoughts. It was more of a general statement on my part on how many of all those listed which one would people could actually qualify as a Camus. Please, feel free to look at the wikia now if need be. Rudolf and Dheginsea would not count because they are the kings, so they are in a position where they can change the country for better unlike a regular Camus who just follows a corrupt system. Dragon king doesn't even get involved in stopping us until the Tower itself because he thought it was the right thing to do to await judgement. His sense got knocked back into when the party defeated him.

Also, Linus is a Camus since he's also functioning in the same role as his brother. Personality doesn't really matter when the actions done are pretty much the same.

I just think Eldigan got more flak since we associate the Camus archetype label on him far more strongly than any of the others you mentioned. Plus Eldigan has much more prominence after the aforementioned Xander and Camus himself which builds him up as the third most popular labeled under that archetype. Everyone else just knows Linus as Linus or Selena as Selena instead of say another Camus archetype.

[Rinehart]

I would definitely consider Dheginsea part of the Camus archetype, since he fights out of loyalty to Ashera and the idea that everyone must accept their punishment if the goddess is woken. His conversations with your units (including his own son) show that he has no hatred towards them, but is simply fighting for what he believes is right.

I'd classify "Camuses" into three different types: (1) Those who fight out of great loyalty to their country, such as Camus himself and Eldigan; (2) Those who are born to the "wrong" side, such as Ishtar and Rinehart; and (3) Those who are mostly indifferent but are fighting you due to the situation, such as Lloyd and Selena.

The Camus archetype is actually one of my favorites because it adds a realistic (and tragic) element that is all too common in the real world.

Edited August 21, 2016 by Rinehart

[Jotari]

Also, Linus is a Camus since he's also functioning in the same role as his brother. Personality doesn't really matter when the actions done are pretty much the same.

I think personality matters quite a lot for defining an archetype. After all it's about recurring character traits. If it's just about actions then a Camus is simply someone who fights your army making them identical to like every other enemy in the game. It's the reasons their fighting and the manner of character that they are which makes people draw parallels.

Also regarding the OP I'm going to copy and paste the opinion I had on FionordeQuester's lp before realising this thread was here (despite his post over there directly referring to it....)

His most prudent action would have been to kill Chagall and crown himself king. Something a portion of the populace wants based on some village convos (I think). But really expecting someone to commit treason and risk the entire stability of their country by waging a civil war during a hostile takeover is asking a bit too much. It's still probably the most sensible thing but the guy shouldn't be condemned as an idiot for not doing it.

Actually the most sensible thing might have been to say feck it all and defect to Leinster. Pretty much the only stable country during the first gen (and even they have to deal with regular war with Thracia).

Edited August 21, 2016 by Jotari

[Magical Glace]

For whatever it's worth regarding Linus, it's implied he might have switched sides if you fought him in Four Fanged Offense before Limstella showed up.

I've never fought Lloyd in that chapter so I don't know how he reacts.

[Moblin Major General]

For whatever it's worth regarding Linus, it's implied he might have switched sides if you fought him in Four Fanged Offense before Limstella showed up.

I've never fought Lloyd in that chapter so I don't know how he reacts.

Lloyd was far more easily swayed than Linus, and would've joined you.

[Cymbalina's Revenge]

That girl's boyfriend was in the Cross Knights, who were loyal to Eldigan. All the town dialogue happens with a member of your army, so you have to take it with a grain of salt. Another example of this is in For Whose Sake, where the opening narration says that the citizens of Thracia feared Seliph's army as an invading force, yet none of the town dialogue really gives that impression (you can interpret this as either the citizens being too scared to openly complain or that only the sympathetic ones are willing to talk to you).

Again, Nodion swore to protect the royal family with the Mystletainn. Overthrowing Chagall in any manner would have run strongly contrary to Eldigan's values, especially since in his view Chagall isn't even that bad compared to the Grandbell occupation. If the game were played from the Agustrian perspective, it wouldn't be difficult to frame Sigurd and the Grandbellians as the "bad guys". Even Levin says this when he first meets up with Sigurd: "I take it you’re that Sigurd guy. You must have an awful lot of free time to be runnin’ around startin’ wars all over the place! Try putting yourself into these people’s shoes for a second! They’re just tryin’ to make a livin’ here." (Chapter 2)

I actually think Eldigan is one of the most understandable "Camus" characters for all of the above. Grannvale already established they could subdue Verdane and hopscotch into Agustria while simultaneously waging a major war in Isaach. Dealing with Chagall's nonsense on its own is one thing, picking between Chagall's misdeeds and this imperial power breathing down your neck is a no-win situation even if Eldigan were a pragmatist and willing to break his vows to the royal family. Which, of course, he isn't.

If Eldigan had made a reluctant power grab (or just let Chagall die in Ch 2) I guarantee his reign would've been short-- either Grannvale/Manfroy would murder him outright or they'd manipulate Sigurd into doing it. I agree with the poster who said the only good outcome for Eldigan personally would've been packing up Grainne and Ares and fleeing to Leonster. But that would leave the Austrian people in the soup, so...