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Jotari

Did anyone else find Fates to be too luck orientated?

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Did anyone else find Fates to be too luck orientated? And I'm not just talking about the high density of samurai and ninja enemies. For example, just yesterday I was playing the Heirs of Fate DLC. Specifically the one set on the Great Wall of Hoshido. The enemy Kana and Selkie on that have over 50 avoid when paired up. The only way I could safely deal with them was to cheaply bait all the enemies around them by having Siegbert hang around outside their range and then use the rescue staff the deal with the knights that always have the same range as Kana. It was then a matter of mobbing them all at once facing 50% hit rates for practically every one of my units. This took a lot of turns and was still risky as reinforcements show up as soon as Kana's dead. The DLC has set stats on all your units so it must be designed around set strategies. The one I used does not seem like good design, if indeed that's how you're expected to play. It took a really long time and still easily could have messed up if I overplayed my hand. That's not the only example either, it's just my most recent experience with insane avoid rights (though Kotaro in Conquest is another example that's easy to think of). I didn't even have this much trouble in FE6 with its notoriously low hit rates. I guess it's generally balanced because it gives you units like Ryoma and Kaden who will dodge practically everything but I still don't particularly like situations where I need to change my entire strategy because I happen to miss the same unit three times in a row.

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Not in the slightest. Can't speak to the heirs of fate DLC specifically since I haven't played that yet, but for all of the other campaigns you can very easily control much of the RNG through intelligent play and planning. Any decent skill unit with WTA can ding samurai/ninjas just fine, especially if you have the associated breaker skills (which, since you mentioned both Hoshidan units, you should have).

For big ticket characters like Kotaro and Ryoma you typically have to stack multiple effects to make sure they go down. Sorcerers in particular are amazing for this with Heartseeker, you can make use of Freeze staves, as well as skills like Certain Blow and Lucky 7. Ryoma even gives you a free -20 avoid zone if you kill his two mini-bosses before engaging.

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Not anymore than the other Fire Emblem games.

The luck based factors are the same as the other games.

Well, True Hit is gone here, so it might seem that you're missing a little more.

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Not in the slightest. Can't speak to the heirs of fate DLC specifically since I haven't played that yet, but for all of the other campaigns you can very easily control much of the RNG through intelligent play and planning. Any decent skill unit with WTA can ding samurai/ninjas just fine, especially if you have the associated breaker skills (which, since you mentioned both Hoshidan units, you should have).

For big ticket characters like Kotaro and Ryoma you typically have to stack multiple effects to make sure they go down. Sorcerers in particular are amazing for this with Heartseeker, you can make use of Freeze staves, as well as skills like Certain Blow and Lucky 7. Ryoma even gives you a free -20 avoid zone if you kill his two mini-bosses before engaging.

I spent the guts of three hours trying to do that chapter legitimately. The corridor on the right was particularly gruesome. Then after finally beating both bosses Ryoma immediately proced astra and killed Corrin, which wouldn't have killed him before tiles changed (I can't remember why, I think they gave a defense boost or reduced speed or somethign). Ignoring the entire rest of the level and just having them fight one on one god the job done in five minutes flat.

Not anymore than the other Fire Emblem games.

The luck based factors are the same as the other games.

Well, True Hit is gone here, so it might seem that you're missing a little more.

Yeah, that's probably where my issue lies. It's less 50% hit rates screwing me over (though they do seem more frequent than in other games) and more missing an unfortunate amount of times when facing odds of 80% which are pretty common. Still I didn't have, or at least didn't notice it as much in Awakening (or even the eralier games that used True Hit).
Edited by Jotari

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(I can't remember why, I think they gave a defense boost or reduced speed or somethign)​

​FYI, they quarter damage taken.

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The one big stickler is the fact that true hit is gone, and that the current RNG makes even less sense. At times I had to put down the game because I was just cursing the RNG.

I'd say that's the largest factor by far as to why it feels much more luck-based than previous titles.

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As in RNG? No, having bad RNG things happen is in any FE game, but I didn't think it means it's luck oriented. Sure, you can get screwed by the RNG and get hit tons of times with 20%s, but that's just how RNG works rather than the game itself being focused on it.

By the logic that Fates is luck oriented, every FE would be luck oriented. Which I wouldn't honestly disagree on.

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I have to admit that I have been killed by criticals far more often in Fates than I used to in other Fire Emblem games. But that might be because of the fact that my luck is terrible lately, rather than due to the game itself.

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I have to admit that I have been killed by criticals far more often in Fates than I used to in other Fire Emblem games. But that might be because of the fact that my luck is terrible lately, rather than due to the game itself.

You're not the only one. Just got killed by a 6% crit against Arete. Which is just...unfortunate.

Edited by Jotari

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If it's possible to 0% Growths Run almost every FE on the highest difficulties, it should be possible to win playing normally without an absurd overreliance on luck. Not even LTCs rely on things that are so absurdly improbable that they will almost never work, especially in the FEs where you can't manipulate/rig the RNG.

You might need a better strategy, even if that strategy is kinda cheap (e.g. "I only have one unit who can safely fight Ryoma and they barely damage him, so I'll spend 30 turns whittling Ryoma down"). If it works, and works reliably, then you're no longer relying on luck, and frankly if it works then who cares if it's cheap?

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If it's possible to 0% Growths Run almost every FE on the highest difficulties, it should be possible to win playing normally without an absurd overreliance on luck. Not even LTCs rely on things that are so absurdly improbable that they will almost never work, especially in the FEs where you can't manipulate/rig the RNG.

You might need a better strategy, even if that strategy is kinda cheap (e.g. "I only have one unit who can safely fight Ryoma and they barely damage him, so I'll spend 30 turns whittling Ryoma down"). If it works, and works reliably, then you're no longer relying on luck, and frankly if it works then who cares if it's cheap?

Well it's not even that the game is that tough. In fact Revelations is probably one of the easiest games in the series (despite being reported to lie somewhere between Birthright and Conquest). It just seems like cheap, slow and turtle heavy strategies are the only reliable way to deal with a lot of situations in Fates, more so than in the other games.

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Imo Awakening's Lunatic+ is more luck orientated compare to Fates...

This, most definitely. Although I don't think I'll be attempting Conquest's Lunatic Mode anytime soon, I will say I will probably attempt it before Awakening's Lunatic. When I get Birthright, I'll probably start it on Hard because Conquest hasn't given me too much trouble so far.

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It's really just Fates" new RNG tripping people up. It's no more luck based than any other game in the series, it's just that several tactics that were viable previously don't really work (i.e. Dodge Tanking) . It's not any more or less luck reliant, it's just different.

Edited by Avalanche

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While I do agree that pretty much every Fire Emblem game (and any game that has RNG, really) relied on some kind of luck factor, but in Fates, the RNG just likes to screw you over when it feels like it has the advantage over you.

Example: In Nohr chapter 23, the one where you fight Sakura and her retainers, Selena (with 24 HP left and I had no option to heal her) had a 98% chance to hit Hana for 30 damage (15x2 with a Brave Sword), which would have killed her outright, not to mention that she had two chances of proccing either Sol or Aether.

Guess what happened? Neither skill procced, both hits missed and Hana got a 2% crit on Selena that killed her, through a 34% hit rate no less.

Example 2: Hoshido (Hard mode) chapter 24, the one where you fight Hans and crew, Ryoma got hit by a Berserker through 12% hit rate, while he missed a 97% hit AND a 32% crit, that's not even mentioning his chance to proc Astra... The Nohrians had good lobster that evening, I assure you.

Example 3: Nohr (Hard mode) chapter 10, Mozu needed to get a VERY NECESSARY 80% hit on a Pegasus Knight that would have killed said Pegasus Knight and the attack HAD to connect, otherwise the Pegasus Knight would have seized the green spots. The attack missed, forcing me to do 10 turns of pure agony over again.

Things similar to this happened WAY too often to be mere coincidence and it beats out RNG screwage in FE6 by a mile and a half and I felt that that game was especially atrocious with the terribly obvious 'fucking the player about' parts. Fates manages to be even worse. Congrats, IntSys.

Edited by DragonFlames

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Example 2: Hoshido (Hard mode) chapter 24, the one where you fight Hans and crew, Ryoma got hit by a Berserker through 12% hit rate, while he missed a 97% hit AND a 32% crit, that's not even mentioning his chance to proc Astra... The Nohrians had good lobster that evening, I assure you.

For the record, it doesn't matter if the character has a Proc or Crit rate when they miss. If they miss, they never had the RN for the crit or Skills rolled in the first place.

It's really just Fates" new RNG tripping people up. It's no more luck based than any other game in the series, it's just that several tactics that were viable previously don't really work (i.e. Dodge Tankg) . It's not any more or less luck reliant, it's just different.

^^^^^^^ This right here is the best answer to this thread.

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Fates is in most ways less RNG-reliant than Awakening: enemies don't have chance-based skills (except bosses whom you can plan around) and their skill louadouts are fixed rather than random. Also, the unreliable dual strike and gual guard mechanics are replaced by predictable ones.

It's probably pretty similar to other FEs, though the change of how RNs are calculated for hit does make everything a less reliable. I just lost a battle due to missing on a 97 hit myself, and while this is a small risk in any FE, it's a little less small in this one than any since FE5. It's not a major change but it is there.

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For the record, it doesn't matter if the character has a Proc or Crit rate when they miss. If they miss, they never had the RN for the crit or Skills rolled in the first place.

Correction: You're remembering FE4, FE5, FE9, and FE10.

Skills are rolled first in FE13 and FE14 before hit. And then hit. And then crit.

If the number of hits changes if Aether or Astra procs, those individual hits get their RNG rolls. Unless FE13 dual guards all those hits.

In FE13, Dual Guard roll first before hit.

Even in FE9 and FE10, the skills that require a change in hits can proc and miss (Aether and Astra).

Only the other skills don't proc during a miss.

Edited by shadowofchaos

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Correction: You're remembering FE4, FE5, FE9, and FE10.

Skills are rolled first in FE13 and FE14 before hit. And then hit. And then crit.

If the number of hits changes if Aether or Astra procs, those individual hits get their RNG rolls. Unless FE13 dual guards all those hits.

In FE13, Dual Guard roll first before hit.

Even in FE9 and FE10, the skills that require a change in hits can proc and miss (Aether and Astra).

Only the other skills don't proc during a miss.

Ah. Thank you. I did not know Skills were rolled first.

Actually, now that I think about it, I should've already known this. I knew Skills could miss in Fates and Awakening, and if they can miss that means that they had to have been rolled first. I'm just a big ol' dummy.

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I beat Conquest on hard without any resets and without losing anyone, because I constantly worked from assuming a worst case scenario, and it worked pretty well. So no, I don't consider this game to be too luck-based.

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I think it seems like it's more luck based, because HP is the lowest it's ever been in FE. You're almost always a crit or so away from death, so there's far less margin for error.

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Weird. Can't say I've never been crit, but it's certainly rarer than some make it out to be here, and I'm almost done with Conquest Lunatic. Even enemies like swordmasters and ninjas have negligible crit chances, mostly it comes down to either bosses or opponents specifically set up to crit, like the great club/death blow weapon master in chapter 25.

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I've grown to appreciate the idea of not engaging when a certain action may possibly result in a reset. Wasted too many hours on this game to keep resetting to 1% crits and 90% hits when I could just fall back and wait for a better opportunity.

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I think Fates' calculations make it so you generally have lower Dodge stats than in past games, meaning it's more likely enemies will have existent critical hit rates, which combined with True Hit's halfway removal makes it much more likely a unit will suddenly die. And many enemies tend to have annoyingly high avoid rates, notably the army of high-speed kitsunes that mob you beyond reasonable ability to keep them off of forests and can't even possibly face WTD.

I haven't played HoF, but HT's Sumeragi was pretty luck-based, and RR has a non-negligible chance of suddenly going very very wrong. So while 98% of the time you can at least pretty well control how much RNG you're facing, that's less than the 99.9% of the time that the average modern FE feels fairly in your hands.

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