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WinterOkami

Is Shigure always the first son ?

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So most of the times you get these vibes that Shigure is the older sibling when Azura achieves an S-Support with any of the army's gentlemen however for certain cases it's a bit weird.

For people like Ignatius it is weird seeing one big tough guy have such a skinny older brother. For Shiro and Siegbert is when it gets really weird because the two are supposed to be the heir of their father's legendary blade however it is only the eldest child who has the right to wield. {It was even like that in Awakening with Lucina and her younger brother/sister}

So truely what is Shigure's place in the family then because you would think he is the older brother of people like Midori and Kiragi but it's a bit weird with some other children.

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No, when it comes to Shiro and Siegbert, Shigure is the younger son.

He will be the older brother of all the other children, however.

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Ah, then I can wipe my comment on how it would be weird only for Siegbert and Shiro, as it's to my understanding that they're pushed as the first heirs to their fathers' thrones. As I hardly used the kids, my knowledge of most of them comes from their paralogues, alone.

On the point of appearance, I wouldn't say it's weird, at all. Sometimes the older sibling looks like the younger one, and vice versa. That's just the way it is, sometimes. It's not too weird of a concept that it strains my suspension of disbelief.

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No, when it comes to Shiro and Siegbert, Shigure is the younger son.

He will be the older brother of all the other children, however.

I was having that thought when trying to write a story where Shigure and Dwyer are brothers. For me, Shigure is barely older by like four minutes if they are twins at least and is a year older at least than Dwyer is if they aren't twins.

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For Shiro and Siegbert is when it gets really weird because the two are supposed to be the heir of their father's legendary blade however it is only the eldest child who has the right to wield.

I don't think that's said anywhere. Otherwise, Leo and Takumi wouldn't be able to use their legendary weapons.

No, when it comes to Shiro and Siegbert, Shigure is the younger son.

He will be the older brother of all the other children, however.

I believe this as well... but wait, if Shigure's everyone else's older brother, shouldn't he be Saizo the Sixth instead of Asugi? Hmm...

Saizo: Behold our first-born son! He shall be-

Azura: His name will be Shigure!

Saizo: ...

Azura: ...

Saizo: ...

Azura: Sorry... I just really like the name...

Saizo: Fine. The next one shall be Saizo the Sixth!

Azura: What do you mean, next one?

Either way you shouldn't put much thought into it, because the children are essentially bonuses that probably won't be born until after the war. Though if they were born normally (that is, in regard to their physical ages), then I think their age order would be:

Shiro and Siegbert > Shigure > Everyone else > Midori and Percy > Kana

I was having that thought when trying to write a story where Shigure and Dwyer are brothers. For me, Shigure is barely older by like four minutes if they are twins at least and is a year older at least than Dwyer is if they aren't twins.

They can't be twins because they have different birthdays.

Edited by Lightchao42

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I don't think that's said anywhere. Otherwise, Leo and Takumi wouldn't be able to use their legendary weapons.

I believe this as well... but wait, if Shigure's everyone else's older brother, shouldn't he be Saizo the Sixth instead of Asugi? Hmm...

Saizo: Behold our first-born son! He shall be-

Azura: His name will be Shigure!

Saizo: ...

Azura: ...

Saizo: ...

Azura: Sorry... I just really like the name...

Saizo: Fine. The next one shall be Saizo the Sixth!

Azura: What do you mean, next one?

Either way you shouldn't put much thought into it, because the children are essentially bonuses that probably won't be born until after the war. Though if they were born normally (that is, in regard to their physical ages), then I think their age order would be:

Shiro and Siegbert > Shigure > Everyone else > Midori and Percy > Kana

They can't be twins because they have different birthdays.

Yeah, that's a good point. DX

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I don't think that's said anywhere. Otherwise, Leo and Takumi wouldn't be able to use their legendary weapons

It's from his JPN sibling supports. He refers to Shiro and Siegbert as "elder brothers", but everyone else as "younger brother/sister".

Which does mean him being Asugi's brother doesn't make sense since he should be the Saizo, but eh. The kids don't make sense and probably aren't even canon (insofar as being born during the game goes).

EDIT: Blah, thought you were saying this in response to Shigure being younger than Shiro and Siegbert.

Edited by Abvora

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It would have been funny to see Ninja Shigure but thanks for answering.

You could always reclass him into a ninja.

It's from his JPN sibling supports. He refers to Shiro and Siegbert as "elder brothers", but everyone else as "younger brother/sister".

Neat. The more you know...

Shiro and Siegbert being the eldest makes sense because as kings Ryoma and Xander would be expected to produce heirs quickly. If one assumes that Shigure is Corrin's son, then it also makes sense that he would be older than the rest of the kids, but younger than Shiro and Siegbert, because Corrin and Azura would be preoccupied reconstructing Valla following Anankos's defeat and they would be too busy to produce a heir immediately. Though that wouldn't explain why he's the third oldest if he isn't Valla's heir (maybe Azura just really wanted children?), nor why Kana is always the youngest...

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I don't think that's said anywhere. Otherwise, Leo and Takumi wouldn't be able to use their legendary weapons.

I believe this as well... but wait, if Shigure's everyone else's older brother, shouldn't he be Saizo the Sixth instead of Asugi? Hmm...

Saizo: Behold our first-born son! He shall be-

Azura: His name will be Shigure!

Saizo: ...

Azura: ...

Saizo: ...

Azura: Sorry... I just really like the name...

Saizo: Fine. The next one shall be Saizo the Sixth!

Azura: What do you mean, next one?

Either way you shouldn't put much thought into it, because the children are essentially bonuses that probably won't be born until after the war. Though if they were born normally (that is, in regard to their physical ages), then I think their age order would be:

Shiro and Siegbert > Shigure > Everyone else > Midori and Percy > Kana

They can't be twins because they have different birthdays.

This right here is gold

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You could always reclass him into a ninja.

Neat. The more you know...

Shiro and Siegbert being the eldest makes sense because as kings Ryoma and Xander would be expected to produce heirs quickly. If one assumes that Shigure is Corrin's son, then it also makes sense that he would be older than the rest of the kids, but younger than Shiro and Siegbert, because Corrin and Azura would be preoccupied reconstructing Valla following Anankos's defeat and they would be too busy to produce a heir immediately. Though that wouldn't explain why he's the third oldest if he isn't Valla's heir (maybe Azura just really wanted children?), nor why Kana is always the youngest...

Who can say no to a heroic dragon man? He is one of the few with who she argued with.

Edited by WinterOkami

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Shiro and Siegbert being the eldest makes sense because as kings Ryoma and Xander would be expected to produce heirs quickly. If one assumes that Shigure is Corrin's son, then it also makes sense that he would be older than the rest of the kids, but younger than Shiro and Siegbert, because Corrin and Azura would be preoccupied reconstructing Valla following Anankos's defeat and they would be too busy to produce a heir immediately. Though that wouldn't explain why he's the third oldest if he isn't Valla's heir (maybe Azura just really wanted children?), nor why Kana is always the youngest...

That's my reasoning for it.

because he's supposed to be Valla's heir ofc

Fair point. If the Kanas don't have an older sibling, then the Corrin's don't have a kid for, what, five to six years? That's a long time for a king/queen to wait for his/her heir. If the Kanas do have an older sibling, though, it makes more sense why they're so young since the Corrins don't have to worry about their kingdom having an heir and probably stopped trying so hard to have kids.

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I am almost certain that Asugi is the older of the two if Shigure is his brother, too.

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In all practicality, Shigure may as well be the Lucina of Fates so... *shrug*

Role-wise, yes. Age-wise, no. Lucina is the only Awakening child actually born in-game.

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Being the first born doesn't even mean they're the older sibling, with the wacky way time passes in the baby realms. Kana could very well be older than his siblings, but is younger, having spent less time in the baby realm.

Role-wise, yes. Age-wise, no. Lucina is the only Awakening child actually born in-game.

Does Shigure even have a role in the game, apart from DLC?

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Being the first born doesn't even mean they're the older sibling, with the wacky way time passes in the baby realms. Kana could very well be older than his siblings, but is younger, having spent less time in the baby realm.

Um, yes it does? That idea makes no sense to me considering the assumed logic: first child you give birth to gets put in the Deeprealms first. Assuming the Deeprealms all move at the same too-fast time, of course, it should make sense for Kana to always be the youngest.

I think what we can all learn from this thread is that the Deeprealms make even less sense than we realize and the writers never wanted us to make sense of it because that was never their purpose. They just wanted Fates to be more profitable by including a popular element of the previous game despite it not making sense at all story-wise.

Does Shigure even have a role in the game, apart from DLC?

Of course not. Kids in Fates are completely optional.

Edited by twistedxgrace

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Um, yes it does? That idea makes no sense to me considering the assumed logic: first child you give birth to gets put in the Deeprealms first. Assuming the Deeprealms all move at the same too-fast time, of course, it should make sense for Kana to always be the youngest.

I think what we can all learn from this thread is that the Deeprealms make even less sense than we realize and the writers never wanted us to make sense of it because that was never their purpose. They just wanted Fates to be more profitable by including a popular element of the previous game despite it not making sense at all story-wise.

Of course not. Kids in Fates are completely optional.

This is why it bothered me that even though Shigure and Dwyer had different birthdays, their paralogues appear at the same exact time after the S-Support between Azura and Jakob. I honestly don't know the time gap during or in between fights, everything seems to go down in like months so the whole birthdays for the kids don't make sense either unless it is a two year war...

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Um, yes it does? That idea makes no sense to me considering the assumed logic: first child you give birth to gets put in the Deeprealms first. Assuming the Deeprealms all move at the same too-fast time, of course, it should make sense for Kana to always be the youngest.

I think what we can all learn from this thread is that the Deeprealms make even less sense than we realize and the writers never wanted us to make sense of it because that was never their purpose. They just wanted Fates to be more profitable by including a popular element of the previous game despite it not making sense at all story-wise.

Of course not. Kids in Fates are completely optional.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Rhajat's supports with Hayato state that time in her Deeprealm moved faster than in other Deeprealms, indicating that there's likely some variance between how fast time moves in each individual Deeprealm.

That doesn't stop the babyrealm concept from making no real sense, though. Just felt it was worth pointing out.

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That's correct, the Deeprealms have a different timescale. Rhajat explicitly mentions that hers goes faster than others and speculates that she is now older than her mother.

This is hilarious if her mother is Nyx, though unfortunately Nyx has no witty comeback specific to being Rhajat's mother.

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Um, yes it does? That idea makes no sense to me considering the assumed logic: first child you give birth to gets put in the Deeprealms first. Assuming the Deeprealms all move at the same too-fast time, of course, it should make sense for Kana to always be the youngest.

I think what we can all learn from this thread is that the Deeprealms make even less sense than we realize and the writers never wanted us to make sense of it because that was never their purpose. They just wanted Fates to be more profitable by including a popular element of the previous game despite it not making sense at all story-wise.

Assuming the baby realms all pass time at the same rate could be an invalid assumption.

This is why it bothered me that even though Shigure and Dwyer had different birthdays, their paralogues appear at the same exact time after the S-Support between Azura and Jakob. I honestly don't know the time gap during or in between fights, everything seems to go down in like months so the whole birthdays for the kids don't make sense either unless it is a two year war...

Azura spent two years in the babyrealms being pregnant, or they were twins, and she gave birth in two different baby realms, we don't know if the date given is our time or the baby realms' date. It makes more sense to be the latter, actually, since we can have these kids in any order.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Rhajat's supports with Hayato state that time in her Deeprealm moved faster than in other Deeprealms, indicating that there's likely some variance between how fast time moves in each individual Deeprealm.

That doesn't stop the babyrealm concept from making no real sense, though. Just felt it was worth pointing out.

I remember her saying she's older than Hayato

That's correct, the Deeprealms have a different timescale. Rhajat explicitly mentions that hers goes faster than others and speculates that she is now older than her mother.

This is hilarious if her mother is Nyx, though unfortunately Nyx has no witty comeback specific to being Rhajat's mother.

They scale differently, and there's no guarantee that the kids spent equal amount of our time in the deep realm. Let's say a week of our time is 10 years of baby realm time.

Let's say Siegbert is born in 2016 and spends a little over a week and a half in the baby realm, popping out at 18 years old or so.

Let's say Shigure is born in 2017 and spends two full weeks in the baby half, so he's 20 years old, now.

In the year 2018, Siegbert is 20, and Shigure is 21. Even though Siegbert is the first born, Shigure is older. I know it's confusing and stupid, but it works with what we know about the baby realms.

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I believe this as well... but wait, if Shigure's everyone else's older brother, shouldn't he be Saizo the Sixth instead of Asugi? Hmm...

Saizo: Behold our first-born son! He shall be-

Azura: His name will be Shigure!

Saizo: ...

Azura: ...

Saizo: ...

Azura: Sorry... I just really like the name...

Saizo: Fine. The next one shall be Saizo the Sixth!

Azura: What do you mean, next one?

Lol, Best post of the thread, right there.

That's correct, the Deeprealms have a different timescale. Rhajat explicitly mentions that hers goes faster than others and speculates that she is now older than her mother.

This is hilarious if her mother is Nyx, though unfortunately Nyx has no witty comeback specific to being Rhajat's mother.

Lol thats funny. I can visualize it.

-----

In the case of Corrin/Azura!Kana and Shigure, Shigure would be the next heir of Valla. If Corrin marries anyone else, it's going to be Kana's sibling, unless they decline. If Corrin marries a Corrinsexual, then it's Kana. Why?

Anankos essentially overthrew the previous rulers (Azura's family), becoming ruler of Valla, despite being a dragon. Upon his defeat/death, the throne would be left to his heir, Corrin (or Lilith, I don't know who is older), or would be left to the one that overthrew Anankos (Corrin), In Revelations, Corrin is just a nice person who offers the throne back to Azura, who declines.

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In the case of Corrin/Azura!Kana and Shigure, Shigure would be the next heir of Valla. If Corrin marries anyone else, it's going to be Kana's sibling, unless they decline. If Corrin marries a Corrinsexual, then it's Kana. Why?

Anankos essentially overthrew the previous rulers (Azura's family), becoming ruler of Valla, despite being a dragon. Upon his defeat/death, the throne would be left to his heir, Corrin (or Lilith, I don't know who is older), or would be left to the one that overthrew Anankos (Corrin), In Revelations, Corrin is just a nice person who offers the throne back to Azura, who declines.

That's not strictly true, and it's something I wish the game touched on more.

Anankos is a usurper; the throne would only pass down to his kids if he managed to hold onto his power. But since he was overthrown, it could actually go to either Corrin or back to Azura (Lilith never comes out with being his daughter, so she can't claim the throne). Corrin's his son (giving him a claim through that) and the guy who overthrew him (giving him a claim through that, since "you conquered it you own" it is the norm of Fire Emblem); but Azura's the original Vallite heir, born of the original royal family (giving her a claim in the "lost queen returns" way--think Aragon from Lord of the Rings). On the other hand, Corrin's the son of the guy who destroyed Valla, and inherited his draconic form, so that may make people leery of having him rule (what if he ends up like his father?).

And this is all before we get into the "cousins" thing. Azura should technically come first in the line of succession since she was born first (she has to be, his dad killed hers before meeting his mom), but depending on how strong Corrin's blood claim to the throne is, things could get a lot murkier. It depends on whether Arete married into the royal family (in which case Mikoto and Corrin have no blood ties to the original Vallite royalty, and his claim is much weaker) or was born into the royal family (in which case Mikoto was born into it as well, so she and Corrin also have the ties, and his claim is stronger). The game seems to lean towards the latter, since Mikoto's able to use Dragon's Vein in Heirs of Fate and Arete was apparently able to use the pendant.

Tl;dr, there should actually be a really big fuss about the Vallite succession since it's so tangled up in right by blood, right by conquest, and right by age. Even though Azura passes the throne off to Corrin, she still has a very strong claim which could be used to stir up trouble in the future. It's something they should genuinely be worried about and discuss more carefully than "oh it's fine I don't want it, you take it and there will never be any future problems".

Unless you have them marry each other, which makes everything moot since they both get the throne. Which actually was a real-world solution to super-messy inheritance crises.

(Can you tell how much of a CK2 and ASoIaF fan I am?)

Edited by Abvora

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That's not strictly true, and it's something I wish the game touched on more.

Anankos is a usurper; the throne would only pass down to his kids if he managed to hold onto his power. But since he was overthrown, it could actually go to either Corrin or back to Azura (Lilith never comes out with being his daughter, so she can't claim the throne). Corrin's his son (giving him a claim through that) and the guy who overthrew him (giving him a claim through that, since "you conquered it you own" it is the norm of Fire Emblem); but Azura's the original Vallite heir, born of the original royal family (giving her a claim in the "lost queen returns" way--think Aragon from Lord of the Rings).

And this is all before we get into the "cousins" thing. Azura should technically come first in the line of succession since she was born first (she has to be, his dad killed hers before meeting his mom), but depending on how strong Corrin's blood claim to the throne is, things could get a lot murkier. It depends on whether Arete married into the royal family (in which case Mikoto and Corrin have no blood ties to the original Vallite royalty, and his claim is much weaker) or was born into the royal family (in which case Mikoto was born into it as well, so she and Corrin also have the ties, and his claim is stronger). The game seems to lean towards the latter, since Mikoto's able to use Dragon's Vein in Heirs of Fate and Arete was apparently able to use the pendant.

Tl;dr, there should actually be a really big fuss about the Vallite succession since it's so tangled up in right by blood, right by conquest, and right by age. Even though Azura passes the throne off to him, she still has a very strong claim (some might say stronger than his) which can be used to stir up trouble in the future.

Unless you have them marry each other, which makes everything moot since they both get the throne. Which actually was a real-world solution to super-messy inheritance crises.

The description for Revelation chapter 25 states that Mikoto "was originally Vallite royalty". She and Arete both have dragon vein icons when fought as well.

I find it unlikely that Valla's citizens would acknowledge Anankos as an "official" ruler on account of being an insane dragon that killed the previous king and mostly everyone else. Even if he did count, no one besides SOL and Lilith knows that Anankos is Corrin's father, and the ending narration for Hidden Truths mentions that Corrin never finds out. If Mikoto is in fact a princess, then Corrin would already be next in line for the throne after Azura anyway (and her children if she has any).

The right by conquest probably wouldn't apply when the actual heir is still around, and age usually doesn't matter when it comes to succession.

Either way Azura is the real heir, but she hands the throne over to Corrin because they're already in the line of succession and because she thinks they would make a better ruler than she would. In the event that Corrin dies without having any children then the throne would go back to her.

Edited by Lightchao42

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That's not strictly true, and it's something I wish the game touched on more.

Anankos is a usurper; the throne would only pass down to his kids if he managed to hold onto his power. But since he was overthrown, it could actually go to either Corrin or back to Azura (Lilith never comes out with being his daughter, so she can't claim the throne). Corrin's his son (giving him a claim through that) and the guy who overthrew him (giving him a claim through that, since "you conquered it you own" it is the norm of Fire Emblem); but Azura's the original Vallite heir, born of the original royal family (giving her a claim in the "lost queen returns" way--think Aragon from Lord of the Rings). On the other hand, Corrin's the son of the guy who destroyed Valla, and inherited his draconic form, so that may make people leery of having him rule (what if he ends up like his father?).

And this is all before we get into the "cousins" thing. Azura should technically come first in the line of succession since she was born first (she has to be, his dad killed hers before meeting his mom), but depending on how strong Corrin's blood claim to the throne is, things could get a lot murkier. It depends on whether Arete married into the royal family (in which case Mikoto and Corrin have no blood ties to the original Vallite royalty, and his claim is much weaker) or was born into the royal family (in which case Mikoto was born into it as well, so she and Corrin also have the ties, and his claim is stronger). The game seems to lean towards the latter, since Mikoto's able to use Dragon's Vein in Heirs of Fate and Arete was apparently able to use the pendant.

Tl;dr, there should actually be a really big fuss about the Vallite succession since it's so tangled up in right by blood, right by conquest, and right by age. Even though Azura passes the throne off to Corrin, she still has a very strong claim which could be used to stir up trouble in the future. It's something they should genuinely be worried about and discuss more carefully than "oh it's fine I don't want it, you take it and there will never be any future problems".

Unless you have them marry each other, which makes everything moot since they both get the throne. Which actually was a real-world solution to super-messy inheritance crises.

(Can you tell how much of a CK2 and ASoIaF fan I am?)

Actually, she could be but it's very unlikely. In the Hidden Truths DLC it is revealed that she is the daughter of Anankos, hence making her Corrin's half sister.

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