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Explosions in NYC and New Jersey - Intentional act of NOT terrorism

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so how will it fester in the western world by allowing immigrants, i really don't understand

has there been an instance of a local imam preaching radical islam

and i dunno man there's drone strikes where my family resides in Pakistan, whereas your family lives in Canada so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Well, I don't know... how about we look at the Kosher supermarket attack in France on the same day as Charlie Hebdo?

And I have have immediate family (aunts/uncles) in the USA.

You are actually willing to play Russian Roulette with my family's lives. That doesn't fly with me especially when your reasoning is "well I have family in Pakistan".

I'm pretty sure your family didn't move from Pakistan to the USA just for the nice beaches. It was probably to give you a better life than what you could have had in Pakistan. You are American. Defend that shit. Otherwise, might as well have the same laws as in Pakistan or Bangladesh in the USA.

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read my edit

if you want the tl;dr, radical islam affects muslims about as much as any other demographic. everyone is playing russian roulette with anyone's lives the moment they accept anything. it's not just radical islam. this is not to say it is not an issue, this is to say that it's not something you should punish an entire demographic for, unless you sincerely believe most Muslim people you meet in the west will come to your house to stab you or commit a suicide bombing.

You also didn't answer any of the rest of what I said before my edit, so please don't ignore things and go on a tirade, then say that I am the one who takes things out of context just to be snarky, a condescending asshole. You do it again and I go right back to not taking anything seriously in a flash. (This is a habit of yours, this is not something I am fabricating, you can see it in this thread right now) If I want an emotional argument directed towards me, then I'll go read tumblr.

that cnn source I also listed goes into some detail about how majority-Muslim countries have it really bad too, if not significantly worse than the western world. Part of the argument is that people leave said places to escape from things like that, which is why it's effectively bigoted to have an immigration policy or even a thought process relating to discriminatory practices based on religion.

(I'm also very weakly agnostic, I am more culturally Muslim in that I follow Ramadan, will pray on Friday sometimes, and will participate in prayer with family)

I'm pretty sure your family didn't move from Pakistan to the USA just for the nice beaches. It was probably to give you a better life than what you could have had in Pakistan. You are American. Defend that shit. Otherwise, might as well have the same laws as in Pakistan or Bangladesh in the USA.

More edits, since I'm constantly thinking of new things: the fuck do you want me to do? Go to every mosque within a 300 mile radius every Friday and look out for signs of radicalization? Because I've never actually heard an imam preach anything too different from what I imagine is the stereotypical Christian sermon. Any single person in my family would've reported shit like that if it were to happen, so I don't see how anyone can be held accountable for this to a reasonable and realistic extent except the people who do it. And when have people committed acts of terrorism because an imam encouraged them to do so out west?

EDIT 2: by not responding to this post you basically acknowledge that your callout in the other thread was an attempt to troll

Edited by Lord Raven

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Can I point something out here that's fascinating? There's more hatred for Jews than Muslims in the world and there are at best 15 million of us in the world. And every one of those 160~400 million Muslims who are fundamentalists would be OK with seeing us dead or would actively try.

Not currently in the US, at least. Atheists being second. Jews have gained more hatred in recent years as well of course which yes, doesn't make a lot of sense since there isn't that many.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/Muslims-are-most-disliked-group-in-US-study-finds/articleshow/54380602.cms

http://sf.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2016/08/17/sf.sow063.full#sec-14

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Not currently in the US, at least. Atheists being second. Jews have gained more hatred in recent years as well of course which yes, doesn't make a lot of sense since there isn't that many.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/Muslims-are-most-disliked-group-in-US-study-finds/articleshow/54380602.cms

http://sf.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2016/08/17/sf.sow063.full#sec-14

Well, not yet. But around the globe? Just look at the UN.

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I'm very hardline on this one. If anyone has any sense of moral obligation to stop radical Islam, it is any Muslim who won't be immediately killed for not being Muslim. Proof? Hey, let's look at St. Cloud! "Are you Muslim? No?" *stab*

I don't follow your logic here. Why should Muslims experience any sense of moral obligation to stop radical Islam? By that logic, I suppose all white people should feel a moral obligation to end racism against black people, but I imagine if something like that started circling the news you wouldn't have anything flattering to say about such an opinion.

The Muslim community should not be obligated to, nor should they be expected to do any more than the average citizen.

Edited by The Blind Idiot God

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To add to that, examples from Canada that I posted about before:

I think what a lot of Canadian Imams are currently undergoing is what the rest should strive for:

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-council-of-imams-to-open-deradicalization-clinics-to-battle-growing-problem-of-extremism

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-imams-on-isil-hit-list-for-preaching-against-extremism-and-steering-muslims-away-from-jihad

Obviously they can identify the problems, this was the same sort of relationship that a certain Imam had with the police that lead to the foiling of a terrorist plot in 2013:

http://www.vosizneias.com/129138/2013/04/23/toronto-canada-lawyer-canadian-imam-tipped-off-rcmp-in-train-plot/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/23/muslims-foil-terror-plot-canada_n_3140528.html

I think a better relationship for the local enforcement and government with the regular Muslim communities instead of fear will be very helpful.

I doubt every case will result in the foiling of terrorist plots (obviously), but if the police let regular Muslim communities know that they are being protected then it would result in their co-operation a lot more. Edited by Tryhard

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I agree that Muslims should be much more on the forefront when it comes to a strong response against terrorism, for their own sake.

If hundreds of thousands of people can go out on the streets on Al-Quds-day to openly declare their desire for Israel to be destroyed why are they not doing the same against Saudi-Arabia's blatant support of Daesh? How many muslims were protesting in a rage against Charlie Hebdo's caricatures, asking for the authors to be killed and how many are silent/happy when one of their religious brethren decides to actually do kill these people?

That's the impression people get and it's not the people's fault. You can blame the media but you can argue that saying "it has nothing to do with Islam" over and over won't help your case just as much.

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Yeah, the Minnesota one happened really close to where I live (in fact, when I first moved up to Minnesota, I considered transferring to the Target attached to that very mall where it happened before deciding to work at another one that was slightly closer, as in 5 minute drive vs. 15 minute drive. As for why there are two Targets that close to each other, it's Minnesota. Targets are everywhere here). I'm worried that this might trigger some serious racist backlash against the local Muslim population, some of whom I'm friends with.

That didn't take long...

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I agree that Muslims should be much more on the forefront when it comes to a strong response against terrorism, for their own sake.

If hundreds of thousands of people can go out on the streets on Al-Quds-day to openly declare their desire for Israel to be destroyed why are they not doing the same against Saudi-Arabia's blatant support of Daesh? How many muslims were protesting in a rage against Charlie Hebdo's caricatures, asking for the authors to be killed and how many are silent/happy when one of their religious brethren decides to actually do kill these people?

That's the impression people get and it's not the people's fault. You can blame the media but you can argue that saying "it has nothing to do with Islam" over and over won't help your case just as much.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36936658

There are things like these that occur.

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36936658

There are things like these that occur.

Considering that there are sects on both sides that believe they worship the same God, I'm glad that this is going on in places. Granted, this would probably never happen in the US.

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It could happen in the US. I mean, the Maryland Governor's Mansion (headed by Martin O'Malley) held prayer during Ramadan in like 2007 and Muslims and non-Muslims attended and participated.

I'm too lazy to dig up the source (the source would be a flickr photo album) but my dad catered for a few of them (and I was there for one of them).

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There are definitely Muslim protests against acts of terrorism. A couple of examples from the UK and U.S. Muslims in the UK have also taken out paid adverts against IS.


It's worth noting what protests take place and where. Yes, hundreds of thousands of Muslims did protest the Charlie Hebdo cartoons, but those hundreds of thousands of Muslims were in countries with a majority Islamic population. Protests are always going to be easier and safer to partake in when you're a part of the majority. The Washington Post article I linked above notes that the protest in the U.S. last year was smaller than in previous years "The crowd was smaller than in past years, she and others said, because many Muslims were afraid of being harassed or targeted with violence." (Also the first half of that sentence indicates that Muslim-led protests are a regular occurrence).

Likewise, it's probably dangerous for Muslims to stand up and decry any Muslim-led attack in the U.S. in any country where the U.S. is not seen as an ally. So actually it's in their own interests not to protest, depending on where they live.

How many U.S. citizens living in the U.S. go out to protest against the U.S. government when the U.S. commits acts of violence abroad? The Kunduz hospital air strike, for example, or the 80 Syrian civilians who were accidentally bombed? And yes; they may be deemed human error or accidental, but when they happen time and time again, they're not exactly going to look that way to the citizens of those countries. Lord Raven mentioned the Pakistan drone strikes, too; the U.S. government has killed an estimated 158 to 965 civilians, including 172 to 207 children; U.S. citizens aren't taking to the streets in large numbers to protest these.

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Something seems off with these numbers, but I can't quite lay a finger on it... ;)

Well, I guess they're from different sources, but the links on wikipedia don't seem to work for me.

Both links on wikipedia are working for me; here's a direct link to the Bureau of Investigative Journalism's data sheet, if that helps. The third tab has a list of all the drone strikes with links to the various news sources that reported upon it.

Granted, obtaining accurate figures is incredibly difficult, and the difficulty is compounded by multiple factors (the areas they occur in are often remote or don't have the best records, there's a lot of cover-up and denial by both the Pakistan and U.S. governments, the various news sources vary by reliability, etc.).

Regardless of the actual numbers, there have been civilians killed, and U.S. drone attacks aren't exactly viewed favourably in many countries in the world.

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36936658

There are things like these that occur.

Pretty sure you're misunderstanding me - I'm in no way arguing that these things don't happen. What I'm saying that it's in their own interest to do things like that more often and in higher numbers to disprove the common impression that there's a "silent majority" of muslims that [not so] secretly agrees with the ideals of IS, Hamas, Al-Queda, the muslim brotherhood et cetera. Of course they can also just continue to say that "it has nothing to do with Islam" but that's becoming harder and harder to argue when every other month you have a headline that essentially boils down to "muslim dude kills/injures x amount of people in y". At some point you'll have to come to the realization that actions speak louder than words and the link you provided is actually a perfect example of that. If we had more things like that happen more people would understand that radical muslims are the exception to the rule, at least in the western world.

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The issue is that stuff like that clearly isn't publicized enough. No matter what Muslims end up doing there won't be much of a change in public perception unless that kind of stuff is advertised more to the general populace.

You're saying actions speak louder than words, but the actions are there and clearly not widespread.

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