Disconnects between plot and gameplay

[BANRYU]

Okay so I actually really like Fates and think it's a good game (obviously, otherwise why would I be here lol).... It made a lot of bold, and ultimately really good gameplay choices IMO and I really appreciate that about it.

BUT.

As many of us know by now, many aspects of its story are dumb. lol. And what's more, a LOT of these plot elements are very... anachronistic, shall we say? with the gameplay, and I think it's safe to say that this game isn't that great at making the plot serve the gameplay or vice versa.

So... here's a thread for us all to b!tch 'bout aspects of the game that are good in terms of gameplay, but don't line up with the plot (or vice versa, if you like).

Here are a few of my gripes:

- Probably the biggest one for me and everyone else: the existence of the kids. The eugenics mechanic is really cool for customizing units gameplay-wise and I appreciate it for that, but plotwise, the kids have no reason to exist. I will never understand why they don't just do what they did with GotHW and just have the kids come in after an actual expanse of time instead of convoluted time/space plot loopholes.

- Camilla and Beruka being wyvern riders is completely irrelevant to their character. I was thinking about this and I realized, then checked their supports and other dialogue.... and yeah, neither of these ladies mentions the fact that they're wyvern riders even a single time throughout the game. I can only surmise that their characters were written before it was decided what class they'd be...? (if you just went by dialogue, you'd think that Beruka was some sort of thiefy rogue type class) And then when they realized that they had only written Percy as a wyvern rider they had to go back and fix this. Kind of a big oversight when you look at Hinoka and Percy's supports and think about how integral a mount is to EVERYTHING to do with the battlefield, and all the more embarassing when Hinoka gets her pegasus in cutscenes and Camilla's wyvern NEVER shows up. Like, ever. Plotwise, it doesn't exist. Same goes for anyone else with an unmentioned mount, really... Silas, Elise, Xander and Leo all probably have this problem too but I didn't bother to check.

[SuperIb]

Okay, here comes the b!tchin' train. *choo choo*

Honestly, Beruka would've been better off as a Ninja as she IS an assassin. The developers were probably like, "Okay Beruka should be a ninja but... that's a HOSHIDAN class... How many Wyvern Riders do we have? Zero? Only a Malig Knight? Okay Beruka you're a Wyvern Rider now."

The kids? Yeah no I think it really doesn't fit well, although I appreciate their attempt. What confuses me is how time works and what's going on outside the deeprealm during those 9 months. (I mean, time's faster in them but still.)

So, why does Lilith die? Like, ever? Her deaths' seem so pointless to me, especially since she has no characterization. It feels like the developers were just like, "Oh shoot, we already used the mom to mess with peoples feels, who else can we kill off randomly? Oh I know! That dragon girl that likes to eat entire milk bottles!" The deaths just feel SO hollow, considering she has what, 2 whopping scenes she appears during the story? They could've done so much more. And then she never even appears in Revelations! Just....?!?!?!? What bugs me a lot though is that it seems like my character shouldn't be harmed by the threats she sacrifices herself for. It's just. Bleh.

Then there's Izana dying in Revelations. Honestly. I think that one is one of the most random deaths. I really don't get it. Scarlet's death was a bit better, but still completely pointless and it irritated me because I liked her and wanted to use her as a unit.

That's pretty much all I have to gripe about over the plot and stuff. If there was anything else that bugged me, it probably was something small. :p

EDIT: Okay I kinda went off topic from the gameplay aspect so I apologize for that.

Edited October 9, 2016 by SuperIb

[VeryAngryBisharp]

Do you really want that many people talking about their mounts?

[BANRYU]

So, why does Lilith die? Like, ever? Her deaths' seem so pointless to me, especially since she has no characterization. It feels like the developers were just like, "Oh shoot, we already used the mom to mess with peoples feels, who else can we kill off randomly? Oh I know! That dragon girl that likes to eat entire milk bottles!" The deaths just feel SO hollow, considering she has what, 2 whopping scenes she appears during the story? They could've done so much more. And then she never even appears in Revelations! Just....?!?!?!? What bugs me a lot though is that it seems like my character shouldn't be harmed by the threats she sacrifices herself for. It's just. Bleh.

Yeah... If anything I'd prefer if it was like... the thing with Kaze in Birthright (as much as THAT blindsides you and is generally a player-hostile mechanic). Where like, if you REALLY don't get her the levels and whatnot, she enters an actual battle scenario with her actual stats that lets her survive or not...?

Or they could, I dunno, ACTUALLY DEVELOP HER CHARACTER lol.

Even though she's essentially a garbage character it still got to me because she a dwagon. shrug

Do you really want that many people talking about their mounts?

Not sayin' it gotta be as central to their character and dialogue as it was with Cherche or even Percy (though IMO his stuff strikes a good balance), but some ACKNOWLEDGMENT of the fact that they all have animal companions essential to their role in battle (at least for their base class) would be nice I guess...?? Like, I'd even settle for a passing mention, but they don't even have that (Camilla and Beruka don't, anyway).

[Qilin]

Why can't I just activate Dragon Fang at will if I could already do it without surprising myself against Hans in a cutscene?

How come fodder enemies have weapons a royal army can't buy?

Why do human enemies get shapeshifter skills?

Why is my army hosting stores in my own dimension?

Why do I have to spend money to buy shit I already own in my own castle?

Why doesn't Lilith's dragon form actually look like a bird? Couldn't they just translate it into lizard to make it make more sense?

Can Benny and Charlotte really just leave their border posts to join your squad, just like that? You would think there would be a proper procedure to follow for joining a royal's little militia.

It didn't make sense that Camilla would discourage you from sparing Shura either. Really? Beruka is RIGHT THERE, your favorite retainer whom you spared.

Same goes for Selena saying it was expected of Odin to become a dark mage because of her mother. She has issues with following in her own mother's footsteps, it's hypocritical to say that to Odin.

Why isn't Iago suspecting something is afoot the entire rest of the game after Garon mumbled religious nut nonsense at a ceiling relief, if he respects, cares, and is loyal to Garon so much and is the royal TACTICAL advisor so that it's safe to assume he isn't an idiot?

Why would Corrin want to wield a Ganglari after the prologue? How would the Ganglari even be made available?

Edited October 9, 2016 by Qilin

[MCProductions]

My Castle literally does not exist in the plot. Seriously, if you treat that thing like the game claim it acts in the story, so many plot holes open it's not even funny. I honestly wonder WHY they made it a pocket demension instead of your camp or whatever. That's how I treat it anyway.

[BANRYU]

Why do I have to spend money to buy shit I already own in my own castle?

Why doesn't Lilith's dragon form actually look like a bird? Couldn't they just translate it into lizard to make it make more sense?

Can Benny and Charlotte really just leave their border posts to join your squad, just like that? You would think there would be a proper procedure to follow for joining a royal's little militia.

Why isn't Iago suspecting something is afoot the entire rest of the game after Garon mumbled religious nut nonsense at a ceiling relief, if he respects, cares, and is loyal to Garon so much and is the royal TACTICAL advisor so that it's safe to assume he isn't an idiot?

Many valid questions, I especially agree with the ones quoted lol.

[spoiler=@ the lilith bird thing]

Corrin is an idiot. More dichotomy between the writing and the art this time, lol... Could just as easily have swapped 'bird' for 'fish' or like a koi or something and it would have been infinitely more plausible.

My Castle literally does not exist in the plot. Seriously, if you treat that thing like the game claim it acts in the story, so many plot holes open it's not even funny. I honestly wonder WHY they made it a pocket demension instead of your camp or whatever. That's how I treat it anyway.

I guess the point is so that you can go to it anytime...? In an actual military campaign, the chars wouldn't have the luxury of retreating back home to their castle every time... But honestly I 100% agree, it's really goofy. There are any other number of plot explanations that could have been given, like maybe Lilith can telelport the group back to the secluded camp, wherever it is or something. Anything but the weird dimensional BS that this game loves to spit out... haha...

[Topaz Light]

All the plotline party member deaths seem like they're only there because IS wanted to force people to have to deal with permadeath, like... There's already an entire game mechanic dedicated to showing that anyone can die in the war; let that handle that aspect of the story. Plotline party member deaths are just annoying, especially when the character just retreats when they're felled in gameplay... so that they can go on to die at the appointed plot moment.

Also, things like killing Zola in gameplay, then Leo executing him in a cutscene afterward. I get that stuff like that's been done in the series before, but they really should've just made Corrin's and Leo's little exchanges with him there into their respective battle quotes with him and had Zola die when you kill him in gameplay.

Edited October 9, 2016 by Topaz Light

[Qilin]

Many valid questions, I especially agree with the ones quoted lol.

The Iago one really bugs me. In Conquest he is actually very capable at his job. Sure, he hates you, but he knows what needs to be done. A prince found out he was raised as an infiltration tool but comes back anyway? Iago is right to not trust the prince until he proves his loyalty. Everyone contaminated the trial results by interfering? Iago is right to blow the whistle. Groans of increasing discomfort? Iago correctly guessed immediately that the singer did it! The prince suddenly had an apparent change of heart and begins to understand your way? Iago is being fair when he rewards Corrin with a contribution to his war chest. But the king suddenly acted like he was on meth and then afterwards he confides in you that he wants one of his princes to suffer for the sake of God? Oh that's completely normal...

[Florete]

Many mounted characters throughout the series never reference their mounts. There's actually less reason for the writers to do that now considering class changing.

I can get past My Castle, honestly. It's a quick explanation to have a main hub that has nothing to do with the plot. It's good for convenience.

I feel permadeath might as well have not even existed this time around. Extremely few characters aren't already part of the group in some way prior to joining, half the characters don't actually "die," and no one reacts to deaths of loved ones, or anyone at all. It was minor in the past, but previous games did have reactions to character deaths, like Pent and Louise going together if either one falls in FE7, or the alternate 4-1 base conversation if Calill dies and some of the endings in RD. But no reactions here, even if someone's child dies.

[Augestein]

Many mounted characters throughout the series never reference their mounts. There's actually less reason for the writers to do that now considering class changing.

I can get past My Castle, honestly. It's a quick explanation to have a main hub that has nothing to do with the plot. It's good for convenience.

I feel permadeath might as well have not even existed this time around. Extremely few characters aren't already part of the group in some way prior to joining, half the characters don't actually "die," and no one reacts to deaths of loved ones, or anyone at all. It was minor in the past, but previous games did have reactions to character deaths, like Pent and Louise going together if either one falls in FE7, or the alternate 4-1 base conversation if Calill dies and some of the endings in RD. But no reactions here, even if someone's child dies.

There's also the fact that a ton of characters don't actually *die* if they die in Fates. the royals, servants... That's quite the number.

[SuperIb]

I feel permadeath might as well have not even existed this time around. Extremely few characters aren't already part of the group in some way prior to joining, half the characters don't actually "die," and no one reacts to deaths of loved ones, or anyone at all. It was minor in the past, but previous games did have reactions to character deaths, like Pent and Louise going together if either one falls in FE7, or the alternate 4-1 base conversation if Calill dies and some of the endings in RD. But no reactions here, even if someone's child dies.

Imagine the dialogue changes if said royals actually did die though. *Plays Revelations where all royals die* If they did do dialogue changes, that would've been quite awesome.

Why would Corrin want to wield a Ganglari after the prologue? How would the Ganglari even be made available?

This. I really don't quite get this one. It just materializes and is never explained. (Also, you can get it as a Battle Points reward, which I find funny if Corrin equips it, especially after Chapter 5...)

[Etrurian emperor]

The most obvious one of Mycastle has already been mentioned. In all routes the heroes look for safe places to hide at one point and no one brings up their pocket dimension that only they can answer.

I'm willing to give a pass on Lilith still being usable after death. This is because I don't even include her with ''plot' to begin with. Lilith has always been a gameplay mechanic and not an actual character so I'm not seeing any disconnect in the plot ignoring the death of one of its ''characters'' for the sake of a gameplay mechanic.

Would the extremely limited boss conversations count? A lot of people who logically have something to say to their opponent just have their generic boss quotes.

Garon doesn't even have anything to say to any of his children or the Hoshido royals who's father he murdered.

Takumi's hinted to be quite the momma's boy who takes Mikoto's death the hardest yet he doesn't have a word to say to her when fighting her revived form. Of the whole family only Ryoma does.

Edited October 9, 2016 by Etrurian emperor

[BANRYU]

Would the extremely limited boss conversations count? A lot of people who logically have something to say to their opponent just have their generic boss quite.

Garon doesn't even have anything to say to any of his children or the Hoshido royals who's father he murdered.

Takumi's hinted to be quite the momma's boy who takes Mikoto's death the hardest yet he doesn't have a word to say to her when fighting her revived form. Of the whole family only Ryoma does.

Yeah, this seems like something they could have taken better from older FE games, where lots of characters get unique boss dialogue... Sigh. What can ya do, eh. They probably spend more time writing the supports, haha...

[Thane]

My Castle literally does not exist in the plot. Seriously, if you treat that thing like the game claim it acts in the story, so many plot holes open it's not even funny. I honestly wonder WHY they made it a pocket demension instead of your camp or whatever. That's how I treat it anyway.

I believe this is and the kids are the two big ones. Another one is Xander's personality.

[kcirrot]

Besides what has been said, a big one for me is Mikoto not being Takumi and Sakura's mother. Which means we are missing a queen no one talks about. It would make sense if she died sometime prior to Mikoto's flight from Valla and thus the queen who bore Ryoma and Hinoka.

[NekoKnight]

I'm going to complain about Conquest, surprise!

Virtually every excuse to fight Nohrian soldiers in Conquest doesn't make sense, but let's talk about the specifics.

The Zola chapter doesn't make any sense. Why is "dishonorable tactics" a valid complaint when your army is full of thieves, rogues and murderers (some of whom are royal retainers)? Why is Leo, Mr. Cold Pragmatism, the one making this complaint? Why doesn't Zola or his soldiers stand down when they realize they are fighting other Nohrians, or the Nohrian royals themselves? Why is capturing the Hoshidan royals using duplicity a greater crime than killing your own soldiers? Why would you WANT the enemy royals to return to their armies where they are harder to kill?

What exactly was the gameplan for Hans and Iago when they attack your army? Were they later going to explain to Garon how they murdered all of his children?

Why does Iago have such a humongous hate boner for the Avatar when they barely interacted before the war? I can understand a bit of initial distrust after Kamui returns to Nohr but he proves time and time again that he's completely loyal to Nohr. Not only does Iago distrust him and try to make him miserable, he actually attempts to have him killed on more than one occasion. Bro, we're on the same side! Contrived villainy, thy name is Iago.

Edit: Wouldn't this have been an interesting twist if Iago and Hans were planning on killing off Garon and his children in a power grab and they didn't realize that Azura and Kamui were already gunning for Garon? This would make Iago's behavior towards the avatar and attempts to kill him actually make sense.

Why isn't Iago suspecting something is afoot the entire rest of the game after Garon mumbled religious nut nonsense at a ceiling relief, if he respects, cares, and is loyal to Garon so much and is the royal TACTICAL advisor so that it's safe to assume he isn't an idiot?

Why would Corrin want to wield a Ganglari after the prologue? How would the Ganglari even be made available?

Good points, especially the Iago bit. Unless I'm mistaken, there isn't any mention of there being an Anankos religion so it's not even religious reverence, the dude is just talking to the ceiling.

Edited October 11, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Azure Sen]

The Zola chapter doesn't make any sense. Why is "dishonorable tactics" a valid complaint when your army is full of thieves, rogues and murderers (some of whom are royal retainers)? Why is Leo, Mr. Cold Pragmatism, the one making this complaint? Why doesn't Zola or his soldiers stand down when they realize they are fighting other Nohrians, or the Nohrian royals themselves? Why is capturing the Hoshidan royals using duplicity a greater crime than killing your own soldiers? Why would you WANT the enemy royals to return to their armies where they are harder to kill?

The Kotaro chapter and Kamui's justification for killing him are similarly nonsensical. Sure, let's kill the guy, Nohr's ally, who has a plan to end the war quickly and with minimal bloodshed, while aiding an agent of the enemy army to rescue another agent of the enemy army, because using a hostage is "dishonorable."

[Augestein]

The Kotaro chapter and Kamui's justification for killing him are similarly nonsensical. Sure, let's kill the guy, Nohr's ally, who has a plan to end the war quickly and with minimal bloodshed, while aiding an agent of the enemy army to rescue another agent of the enemy army, because using a hostage is "dishonorable."

Maybe it's a culture thing, but how bad is winning through "dishonorable" ways in Japan?

[BANRYU]

I'll have it said that a lot of these recent ones are more flaws in the writing than much that necessarily connects to the gameplay, buuuuut....

The writing IS pretty bad at times and I'm enjoying people drill it for that hahaha. Soooo carry on.

[saisymbolic]

Maybe it's a culture thing, but how bad is winning through "dishonorable" ways in Japan?

I honestly think it's pretty bad. Of course, I'm no professor, but the way honor is held in such a high regard in Japanese society, I would think it a big deal.

[NekoKnight]

The Kotaro chapter and Kamui's justification for killing him are similarly nonsensical. Sure, let's kill the guy, Nohr's ally, who has a plan to end the war quickly and with minimal bloodshed, while aiding an agent of the enemy army to rescue another agent of the enemy army, because using a hostage is "dishonorable."

Indeed. The protagonist's party may be the true villains of the story.

Maybe it's a culture thing, but how bad is winning through "dishonorable" ways in Japan?

There isn't much of a concept of honor in warfare in Japan (or most countries). A popular tactic for combat in medieval Japan was setting the building on fire and shooting the people fleeing from it.

I'll have it said that a lot of these recent ones are more flaws in the writing than much that necessarily connects to the gameplay, buuuuut....

The writing IS pretty bad at times and I'm enjoying people drill it for that hahaha. Soooo carry on.

The connection to gameplay is fighting soldiers even though you are allies in story. It is a writing problem, but it affects the gameplay in a significant way,

[Lightchao42]

Maybe it's a culture thing, but how bad is winning through "dishonorable" ways in Japan?

Well, there's also the fact that "taking and killing hostages in cold blood" is, well, bad, no matter the culture. The only thing that Corrin n' pals did was prevent war crimes that wouldn't have actually accomplished anything, since killing hostages would've just make Hoshido less likely to surrender.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Lightchao42

[saisymbolic]

Would Kaze's death in BR count as a disconnect?

[Qilin]

Why can't we learn the spell Nyx used to massacre her entire village? It's not like we would be using it for fun like she did, it's not fair in the first place that we are always outnumbered.

If Garon sent Xander, Camilla, and Leo out on their respective missions regularly, but Corrin specifically is sent out without his own army as an unusual case, then how come when Xander, Camilla, and Leo join you, they don't get to combine their regular armies with yours, only their retainers?

I honestly think it's pretty bad. Of course, I'm no professor, but the way honor is held in such a high regard in Japanese society, I would think it a big deal.

Oh, they only talk about honor. They had just about zero honor in a war. You are going to love reading about their MO in World War II. Everyone knows about Nanking, but that's just one of the many ways Japan lacked honor. For example, their navy issued a standing order for all captured prisoners to be killed, which is an international naval war crime, so this Japanese captain sank a Dutch merchant ship, took 100+ people aboard, beheaded some, gunned down others, and when he got bored he tied the rest to the outside of his submarine before diving back down. Then when Britain called them out for committing a war crime, Japan denied doing it, and the captain got a promotion for his effort. Oh, and one of those prisoners was a woman, so that was nice. The captain ended up committing suicide when Japan surrendered, his crew said it was because he knew he would undoubtedly be in a front seat for the international war crime tribunal afterwards, because he didn't do this to just one ship, he kept doing it to other ships.

So they actively attacked the defenseless, lied about it, and then didn't have the guts to face the consequences. That's at least 3 different ways they were dishonorable in regards to one single incident.