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Disconnects between plot and gameplay

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I can't believe no one mentioned this yet but...

PRINCE RYOMA WILL WAIT PATIENTLY FOR HIS REVENGE FOR 25 TURNS

So we had this entire scene in which the lobster goes super saiyan out rage and screams for murder after he finds out that you "killed" Hinoka, but then when the chapter starts he's just sitting there... drinking tea... I guess?

I know that they wanted to give you time for your other units to get there and help you out in case that your Corrin is too much of a scrub to take on Ryoma, but this ridiculous solution shattered all the tension from the story.

I think I heard somewhere that Ryoma is more calm about Corrin killing Hinoka in the Japanese version, and his Super Saiyan rage was a localization thing. I might be wrong though.

Edited by Lightchao42

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I think I heard somewhere that Ryoma is more calm about it in the Japanese version, and his Super Saiyan rage was a localization thing. I might be wrong though.

No, his rage is in the JP version.

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I think the last minute change was that they originally planned to make their DLC separate from the main plot, like most of Awakening's DLC.

In their supports, they reference a "mission" and a threat that needs to be defeated, but have no actual dialogue that indicates this threat is Anankos or is related to the main story at all. Their last stage sentences also say nothing about their mission, even though it's followed by their epilogue that mentions their departure. All the ties of their "mission" to the main plot come from their two DLC chapters (and later ones written obviously after those, like Heirs of Fates).

If they were originally planning to make their DLC quest much more standalone though, then all that would make a lot more sense.

Honestly, that just makes me think the whole "mission" thing was added in last minute when they made the Awakening trio themselves instead of expies, as a flimsy justification as to why they're in (and stay with) Nohr. Especially because, like Thane said, the circumstances of their retainership make zero sense.

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The Awakening trio don't actually know Kamui is the person they're supposed to protect, so them not joining on Birthright for that reason makes sense. What doesn't make sense is them sticking with Nohr despite all the atrocities Nohr commits, or the fact that the scenario of a nation invading a peaceful neighboring county should really ring some alarm bells for them considering when it happened in their world, it led to the apocalypse. (Which is why my long-running headcanon is that the Awakening trio were originally supposed to only be expies a la Asugi, Caeldori and Rhajat, but were added in as themselves because fanservice at the last minute.)

True they don't know Corrin's name, but they do know that Anankos thought Corrin was in Hoshido until Lilith told him it was Nohr. It wouldn't exactly take Sherlock Holmes to figure out the rest on your own.

They also know about the divine weapons and so as soon as the rainbow sage upgrades the Yato it should have been obvious.

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Honestly, that just makes me think the whole "mission" thing was added in last minute when they made the Awakening trio themselves instead of expies, as a flimsy justification as to why they're in (and stay with) Nohr. Especially because, like Thane said, the circumstances of their retainership make zero sense.

The circumstances might be odd, but they're pretty consistent among all their supports, so I can't think about it being some last minute addition. The inconsistencies only start appearing when you add the DLC that actually explained the nature of their mission.

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I think one of the biggest disconnects is the game's inexplicable insistence on making it look like Azura's actually capable of engaging in combat. They have her fight right alongside Corrin and the route's leading prince on numerous occasions, Conquest chapter 17 has her rout multiple Hoshidan troops singlehanded offscreen without breaking a sweat...

[spoiler="Conquest chapter 21]

and the game honestly expects me to believe that she's more capable of taking a hit for the avatar than Lilith is, which is asinine.

Seriously, she's the least durable unit in the entire game, the only character with lower HP and defense growths is Gunter. Is it too much to ask for her to actually act like it in cutscenes?

Edited by Alastor15243

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Seriously, she's the least durable unit in the entire game, the only character with lower HP and defense growths is Gunter. Is it too much to ask for her to actually act like it in cutscenes?

I suppose it would be better if they actually made her durable. No idea what the point is of giving her these crazy offensive stats when everything kills her in one hit.

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The circumstances might be odd, but they're pretty consistent among all their supports, so I can't think about it being some last minute addition. The inconsistencies only start appearing when you add the DLC that actually explained the nature of their mission.

Having just gone back through their supports (which I honestly should have done in the first place, good job me), they make little reference to actually having any sort of purpose in being in Fates' world; the most they say is that they "can't leave yet" in Laslow and Selena's A Support, and that they'll go back "when they're done here" in Laslow and Odin's A Support. Otherwise they just talk about having to leave someday in various other supports, and even some of their S Supports don't mention them eventually having to leave.

True they don't know Corrin's name, but they do know that Anankos thought Corrin was in Hoshido until Lilith told him it was Nohr. It wouldn't exactly take Sherlock Holmes to figure out the rest on your own.

They also know about the divine weapons and so as soon as the rainbow sage upgrades the Yato it should have been obvious.

Admittedly it's been a while since I played Hidden Truths, but isn't the only hint they get about Kamui that Kamui's now in Nohr at the end of that? No physical desctiption, no indication of their situation, not even a name, etc.. I also don't remember them ever being told anything about the divine weapons.

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Admittedly it's been a while since I played Hidden Truths, but isn't the only hint they get about Kamui that Kamui's now in Nohr at the end of that? No physical desctiption, no indication of their situation, not even a name, etc.. I also don't remember them ever being told anything about the divine weapons.

Nah, they hear Anankos hear that Corrin's not in Hoshido anymore and s/he's in Nohr now.

And there's only one person with dragon blood who was in Hoshido and is now in Nohr, so I agree, they'd have to be idiots not to figure it out.

Edited by Alastor15243

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Nah, they hear Anankos hear that Corrin's not in Hoshido anymore and s/he's in Nohr now.

And there's only one person with dragon blood who was in Hoshido and is now in Nohr, so I agree, they'd have to be idiots not to figure it out.

Do they actually know Kamui is that person, though? It seemed like only Garon and Xander knew that Kamui was taken from Hoshido to Nohr, and even after that's revealed to Kamui it doesn't seem to really be common knowledge. That also brings up the question of how Lilith was able to find Kamui but apparently decided not to tell the Awakening trio who Kamui was?

Honestly, this is why I hate Hidden Truths' story. It's clear that IntSys didn't have an actual reason why the Awakening trio was in Fates' world when they first added them in, regardless of when they were added, and so they gave us a DLC to answer that question that no one asked. Except said DLC raised more questions than it answered and was riddled with plot holes.

Edited by AzureSen

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Do they actually know Kamui is that person, though? It seemed like only Garon and Xander knew that Kamui was taken from Nohr to Hoshido, and even after that's revealed to Kamui it doesn't seem to really be common knowledge. That also brings up the question of how Lilith was able to find Kamui but apparently decided not to tell the Awakening trio who Kamui was?

That's the point though: who else could it conceivably be? For whatever reason there aren't that many dragon-blooded people lying around despite it being passed down through the blood for centuries in-story, and all of the holy weapons are still within one family of royals on each side, which is satistically nigh-impossible unless for whatever reason Garon and Sumeragi were at one point the only Nohrian and Hoshidan royals left alive.

There are ten young royals, only two of them switched countries, and only one of them went from Hoshido to Nohr. It could only be the avatar.

And honestly is there any evidence that Kamui's kidnapping was some grand conspiracy only Garon and Xander knew about? I always got the impression it was just something they hid from Kamui when s/he was sheltered. And surely even the slightest amount of effort on their end would have uncovered the truth. Or maybe just noticing Kamui's red eyes and pointy ears and thinking "something's up..."

Edited by Alastor15243

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I feel like they should have said that the Fates Trio simply got warped in the wrong place when they tried to go back to their own world, they became retainers to maintain a job while they searched for a way to get back home. Their "mission" could have been actually what the DLC was in Awakening or even the main story of Awakening itself, they were just a group that didn't get teleported back to stop Grima. It's not a good idea to have them there anyways, but that's honestly the best justification I can think of that doesn't seem too plotholish. After all, it's not outlandish if you consider that Corrin / Jakob / Felicia can teleport into Awakening's world. It especially works when you consider that Corrin teleported there at the *start* of Awakening in Fates' canon so it's not hard to believe the future kids got warped somewhere wrong in some timelines. The only real plothole here is that Owain, Severa, and Inigo can possibly be present in this DLC... So I just like to imagine that its done ASAP instead of later on. Like... Chapter 7 levels of early, so that the Awakening Trio is never there. Owain was just a mage in this timeline instead of a sword fighter. There.

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I think one of the biggest disconnects is the game's inexplicable insistence on making it look like Azura's actually capable of engaging in combat. They have her fight right alongside Corrin and the route's leading prince on numerous occasions, Conquest chapter 17 has her rout multiple Hoshidan troops singlehanded offscreen without breaking a sweat...

[spoiler="Conquest chapter 21]

and the game honestly expects me to believe that she's more capable of taking a hit for the avatar than Lilith is, which is asinine.

Seriously, she's the least durable unit in the entire game, the only character with lower HP and defense growths is Gunter. Is it too much to ask for her to actually act like it in cutscenes?

Mmm that's some good outrage, I dig it.

Yeah, the way most FE games (even Awakening, who to my knowledge had the first combat-capable dancer in the series) has gone out of its way to show 'this is your support unit-- they are squishy and fragile' in support/cutscene convos, character designs (and in Olivia's case, personality as well, which is interesting and I like it) and so on; it's just baffling that they thought it was okay to write Azura like a warrior instead of the fragile-- and essential-- keystone in the army that she is lol. 100% agree.

Edited by BANRYU

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That's the point though: who else could it conceivably be? For whatever reason there aren't that many dragon-blooded people lying around despite it being passed down through the blood for centuries in-story, and all of the holy weapons are still within one family of royals on each side, which is satistically nigh-impossible unless for whatever reason Garon and Sumeragi were at one point the only Nohrian and Hoshidan royals left alive.

There are ten young royals, only two of them switched countries, and only one of them went from Hoshido to Nohr. It could only be the avatar.

And honestly is there any evidence that Kamui's kidnapping was some grand conspiracy only Garon and Xander knew about? I always got the impression it was just something they hid from Kamui when s/he was sheltered. And surely even the slightest amount of effort on their end would have uncovered the truth. Or maybe just noticing Kamui's red eyes and pointy ears and thinking "something's up..."

Actually, it's implied at the beginning of the game that Flora and Jakob/Felicia know about it aswell when Corrin wakes up from their dream, though to my knowledge it's never touched upon in any of the supports later on.

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Why aren't Anankos, Corrin and Lilith all the same type of dragon if they're related.

Izana and fuga specifically say they want to stay out of the war, so why join you later?

How does Zola take Sakura "hostage" when at this point in the game she probably has higher stats than him, he's weak from just being beaten, and Corrin is right there to stop Zola.

In Revelations why doesn't Silas show up to attack fort Jinya, while you're attacking it? He does in Birthright and Corrin not joining Hoshido shouldn't effect what he is doing.

Anthony

Why doesn't Corrin get rid of Ganglari when it threw him into the canyon, then just get a new sword in Hoshido? Oh wait Mama needed to die because plot

In revelations on the chapter where you fight Hoshido and Nohr and get the furries, why doesn't Sakura/Takumi/Azura discourage Ryoma from fighting? Why doesn't Selena discourage Laslow from fighting?

In Conquest how does Takumi escape, but Scarlet gets butchered. Also Corrin knows that Hans is a thug so why not just finish him off right there? Garon would never find out.

Speaking of Garon, how come Corrin couldn't finish him off in that earlier Birthright chapter?

Why aren't the Wolfskin and Kitsune fights in Conquest and Birthright, escape missions? Why do we have to kill them all?

Why does Flora commit suicide in Birthright for doing the basic same thing she did in Conquest/Revelations?

Anna's cool and all, but why is she recruitable in Fates when she doesn't appear anywhere else?

I'm gonna stop now, but there are a lot more problems.

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Yeah, and there's also the fact that they expect you to BUY DLC to understand Owain's, Inigo's, and Severa's deal, yet they still left plotholes! WAT? I'm not a fan of the whole dlc dealio, but that's a thing for another topic.

Also, I don't get why a few of the gimmicks in revelation are explained/ barely explained. I mean, why even BE THERE if you're not going to explain their existence?! For example, the friggin' weird elevator things in the chapter with Sumeragi. WHY DID THEY NEED TO BE THERE?! Maybe I'm just nitpicking, I dunno.

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Yeah, and there's also the fact that they expect you to BUY DLC to understand Owain's, Inigo's, and Severa's deal, yet they still left plotholes! WAT? I'm not a fan of the whole dlc dealio, but that's a thing for another topic.

Also, I don't get why a few of the gimmicks in revelation are explained/ barely explained. I mean, why even BE THERE if you're not going to explain their existence?! For example, the friggin' weird elevator things in the chapter with Sumeragi. WHY DID THEY NEED TO BE THERE?! Maybe I'm just nitpicking, I dunno.

I think the only people who'd say you're "nitpicking" by pointing out flaws in IS's modern storytelling aren't the type you can reason with anyway if they're going to be that rude to your legitimate complaints.

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Actually, it's implied at the beginning of the game that Flora and Jakob/Felicia know about it aswell when Corrin wakes up from their dream, though to my knowledge it's never touched upon in any of the supports later on.

Flora didn't know actually, unless she's faking her shock in chapter 8 of conquest.

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Why aren't Anankos, Corrin and Lilith all the same type of dragon if they're related.

I think we are expected to assume that dragons are very diverse in appearance in Fates like a zebra's stripes.....except a lot more extreme.

Why does Flora commit suicide in Birthright for doing the basic same thing she did in Conquest/Revelations?

I think it had something to do with the differences between the two instances. I guess in Birthright it wasn't just that she went against the Avatar, but she did so out of fear of what Garon would do to her when she knew she was on the wrong side.

Or mabye I am just flat out wrong....its been a while since i watched it.

I know i will be in the minority for saying this, but I am not in the least bothered by game story segregation. To me, its like complaining about not getting cursed for a thousand years if you touch Ninetales' tails in Amie

(of course, mabye you are and just don't know it.). BUt that is just my personal opinion.

Edited by Blade_of_Light

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Having just gone back through their supports (which I honestly should have done in the first place, good job me), they make little reference to actually having any sort of purpose in being in Fates' world; the most they say is that they "can't leave yet" in Laslow and Selena's A Support, and that they'll go back "when they're done here" in Laslow and Odin's A Support. Otherwise they just talk about having to leave someday in various other supports, and even some of their S Supports don't mention them eventually having to leave.

I was referencing the circumstances that led them to being recruited as retainers, rather than the actual text that directly references how they're from Awakening. The fact that they appeared like out of nowhere and got recruited in spite of that lack of brackground is referenced quite often. Then there are the conversations that actually talk directly about their Awakening connections. I don't think the supports would be that consistent if they had been changed midway through, considering all the other consistency issues in the game (like the ones added by the DLC that reveal their mission).

The only interaction that makes me think they might have been intended to be expies at some point is Severa's conversation with the avatar about him not remembering her. It's basically the only interaction that suggests they were there for many years already rather than being outsiders.

Edited by NeonZ

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Why do fhe Awakening Trio have access to Hoshidan-only classes (Selena: Sky Knight, Odin: Samurai, Laslow: Ninja)? Did they spend time training in Hoshido? But this doesn't seem likely, since it never comes up in conversations about their background checks or how they became Nohrian retainers. Or is this just a mark of IS's bias toward Hoshido ("Here are a few classes we know you missed having from Birthright... except you won't be able to have other characters partner seal to them. Too bad! That's what you get for picking the dark side, neenerneener~")?

Edited by SylvieLeo

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Why do fhe Awakening Trio have access to Hoshidan-only classes (Selena: Sky Knight, Odin: Samurai, Laslow: Ninja)? Did they spend time training in Hoshido? But this doesn't seem likely, since it never comes up in conversations about their background checks or how they became Nohrian retainers. Or is this just a mark of IS's bias toward Hoshido ("Here are a few classes we know you missed having from Birthright... except you won't be able to have other characters partner seal to them. Too bad! That's what you get for picking the dark side, neenerneener~")?

Actually, this one makes sense to me... It's a reference to Owain's default class and Severa's inheritance from her mom in Awakening. I'm not sure why Inigo's other class is ninja, though, since he doesn't have the thief tree by default in Awakening...? So not sure in that regard.

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Actually, this one makes sense to me... It's a reference to Owain's default class and Severa's inheritance from her mom in Awakening. I'm not sure why Inigo's other class is ninja, though, since he doesn't have the thief tree by default in Awakening...? So not sure in that regard.

That's nice of IS to have that plug. I haven't played Awakening (yet?), so this just seemed weird. But now I question why Owain became a Dark Mage when he adopted the Odin persona -- was it just to have Nohrian class? And Inigo/Laslow is the odd one out.

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Actually, this one makes sense to me... It's a reference to Owain's default class and Severa's inheritance from her mom in Awakening. I'm not sure why Inigo's other class is ninja, though, since he doesn't have the thief tree by default in Awakening...? So not sure in that regard.

No, but he does have myrmidon like Owain and therefore assassin. Maybe they thought having of them have myrmidon would be a bit much and so translated assassin to ninja?

Anyway I'm happy with the result, it makes him awesome at rallying.

Edited by Alastor15243

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That's nice of IS to have that plug. I haven't played Awakening (yet?), so this just seemed weird. But now I question why Owain became a Dark Mage when he adopted the Odin persona -- was it just to have Nohrian class? And Inigo/Laslow is the odd one out.

I think that was to make another subtle joke tbh. In Awakening, he started as a myrmidon and he was better off being a caster, in Conquest/Revelations he is a caster better off being switched to a "sword fighter."

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